dajo9;842838386 said:

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So, what you're saying is, it is up to moderate Republicans to save our country by rejecting those Republicans in office who are putting party and special interests over country

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Fify

I was a prosecutor for over 30 years. Special prosecutors can be a disaster - as illustrated by Lawrence Walsh and Kenneth Starr. They both used their status (neither had ever been a line prosecutor to my knowledge) to go on and on without the humility or judgment to end their probes. A good line prosecutor knows when to stop and not make a mountain out of a molehill because he knows that jurors will ultimately humiliate him when he faces first rate defense attorneys in a trial. People who complain about Comey's interference in the 2016 election have forgotten Lawrence Walsh's indictments just before the Bush Clinton election in 1992. Everyone remembers Starr's fanatical expansion of the probe of Clinton, but people forget what a tool Walsh was and how political he was.

OdontoBear66;842838387 said:

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Add in blue dog Democrats if they exist any more and you might have something.

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They don't really. I mean, technically they still exist, but they have no pull with the Democratic leadership the way the Freedom Caucus does with Republicans.

MSaviolives;842838385 said:

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Excellent whataboutism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism http://www.npr.org/2017/03/17/520435073/trump-embraces-one-of-russias-favorite-propaganda-tactics-whataboutism

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Thank you for the links.

1979bear;842838371 said:

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Albania Bulgaria Slovenia. Members of NATO? Allies America NEEDS to defend? No way. I don't want our armed forces required to risk their lives for these countries. This is as bad to me as losing lives in the Middle East. If Russia were to retake some of the 'stans, BFD.

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I agree. We'd be better off using our resources annexing everything from California to 1 mile east of the Panama Canal(cause the canal doesn't run east/west it actually runs north(and a little bit west)/South(and a little bit east). Geography tidbit for the day.

CAL6371;842838389 said:

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I was a prosecutor for over 30 years. Special prosecutors can be a disaster - as illustrated by Lawrence Walsh and Kenneth Starr. They both used their status (neither had ever been a line prosecutor to my knowledge) to go on and on without the humility or judgment to end their probes. A good line prosecutor knows when to stop and not make a mountain out of a molehill because he knows that jurors will ultimately humiliate him when he faces first rate defense attorneys in a trial. People who complain about Comey's interference in the 2016 election have forgotten Lawrence Walsh's indictments just before the Bush Clinton election in 1992. Everyone remembers Starr's fanatical expansion of the probe of Clinton, but people forget what a tool Walsh was and how political he was.

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I hear you, but my question to you is, if the FBI believes they have found criminal conduct within the senior leadership of the Trump Administration who prosecutes the case in the current arrangement?

NYCGOBEARS;842838388 said:

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Fify

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I don't know NYC. Personally I don't think people should use the term special interest without explaining exactly who / what they are talking about. Your special interest is my core constituency and vice-versa.

dajo9;842838408 said:

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I don't know NYC. Personally I don't think people should use the term special interest without explaining exactly who / what they are talking about. Your special interest is my core constituency and vice-versa.

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How about wealthy people in the specific case of Trump Care?

dajo9;842838386 said:

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So, what you're saying is, it is up to moderate Republicans to save our country by rejecting those Republicans in office who are putting party over country

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Yes, but this may not happen. And "save" is a loaded word. Did Lincoln "save" the USA? He definitely did. Is that the kind of "saving" we want? I don't. I prefer divorce.

burritos;842838413 said:

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Yes, but this may not happen. And "save" is a loaded word. Did Lincoln "save" the USA? He definitely did. Is that the kind of "saving" we want? I don't. I prefer divorce.

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A divorce that left slavery in place for another generation?

These are tough questions. Sometimes you have to fight.

sycasey;842838394 said:

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They don't really. I mean, technically they still exist, but they have no pull with the Democratic leadership the way the Freedom Caucus does with Republicans.

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I would tend to liken them to moderate Repubs, if I understand your response (no pull, no push in the party)

OdontoBear66;842838419 said:

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I would tend to liken them to moderate Repubs, if I understand your response (no pull, no push in the party)

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I'm talking about moderate Republican voters rejecting Republican politicians who are obstructing The Russia investigation.

sycasey;842838415 said:

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A divorce that left slavery in place for another generation?

These are tough questions. Sometimes you have to fight.

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No doubt Lincoln made the right call. I'm convinced the world is better because of that decision. 400k dead? In the big picture, it was worth it.

I'm saying to the extremely divided people of today(i.e. texas secessioners/preppers/militia nationalists in rural america during obama and calexiters under trump) do we war over the seemingly never ending uncompromisable issues like abortion/gun rights/implementing policies to deal with climate change? To this, I opine divorce over forcible preservation of the union.

burritos;842838423 said:

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No doubt Lincoln made the right call. I'm convinced the world is better because of that decision. 400k dead? In the big picture, it was worth it.

I'm saying to the extremely divided people of today(i.e. texas secessioners/preppers/militia nationalists in rural america during obama and calexiters under trump) do we war over the seemingly never ending uncompromisable issues like abortion/gun rights/implementing policies to deal with climate change? To this, I opine divorce over forcible preservation of the union.

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We're no more divided than at other times. One of the great things about this country is that there is no dominant culture- only people who think their culture is dominant- so we battle it out and make progress, albeit not easily. For me, I would rather live in a country with Mississippi in it than the country of California with Palo Alto and Marin County in it- that self-absorption and provincialism would be totally deadening.

burritos;842838423 said:

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No doubt Lincoln made the right call. I'm convinced the world is better because of that decision. 400k dead? In the big picture, it was worth it.

I'm saying to the extremely divided people of today(i.e. texas secessioners/preppers/militia nationalists in rural america during obama and calexiters under trump) do we war over the seemingly never ending uncompromisable issues like abortion/gun rights/implementing policies to deal with climate change? To this, I opine divorce over forcible preservation of the union.

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Ironically, Calexit was also sponsored by Putin.

My cynicism about politics gives me little doubt that, if the roles were reversed, dems would be just as awful as the Republicans are now in obstructing the investigations into the Russian/collaboration issues. I have tons of respect for the repubs who are actively putting country over party. There are lots of Never Trumpers in the pundit class, but the courageous ones in Congress are the ones who are sacrificing votes and perhaps repub agenda victories to do the right thing. Graham, McCain, Sasse come to mind. I remain somewhat optimistic that Comey and career prosecutors in the AG's office will continue to pursue this as necessary.

MSaviolives;842838429 said:

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Ironically, Calexit was also sponsored by Putin.

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Yeah, but we got Alaska for 7.2 million dollars from the Russians. I think we are still ahead by $7,199,999.99 based on the comparison value of these two things.

The DOJ attorneys who are career prosecutors- the Attorney General has rightly recused himself. The the career prosecutors (like the former acting AG who was such a superb witness yesterday would be an example of who would supervise the effort). These people in DC are the cream of the crop - I know how good they are because they offered me a job when I was in my last year at Boalt. Donald Santarelli, the interviewer, told me they only visit two law schools west of the Mississippi - Boalt and Stanford. I don't know if anyone from Stanford got an offer, but I was the only one from Boalt that year.
As an aside, Santarelli was the subject of speculation that he was part of Deep Throat because many believed that DT was not one individual person. In the book by L. Patrick Gray (AG at the end of Watergate) and his son, they found papers on Santarelli in the archives at U Texas donated by Woodward (and Bernstein?) on the Watergate investigation. When Gray phoned Santarelli to confirm this for their book, he hung up on them and refused to talk.
I have a lot of confidence in the DOJ investigating and prosecuting the case properly.

MSaviolives;842838433 said:

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My cynicism about politics gives me little doubt that, if the roles were reversed, dems would be just as awful as the Republicans are now in obstructing the investigations into the Russian/collaboration issues. I have tons of respect for the repubs who are actively putting country over party. There are lots of Never Trumpers in the pundit class, but the courageous ones in Congress are the ones who are sacrificing votes and perhaps repub agenda victories to do the right thing. Graham, McCain, Sasse come to mind. I remain somewhat optimistic that Comey and career prosecutors in the AG's office will continue to pursue this as necessary.

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If McCain were in charge, we'd have troops in Iraq(more),Afghanistan(more), Georgia("We are all Georgians"), Ukraine, Syria, Libya, and the South Sea.

CAL6371;842838441 said:

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The DOJ attorneys who are career prosecutors- the Attorney General has rightly recused himself. The the career prosecutors (like the former acting AG who was such a superb witness yesterday would be an example of who would supervise the effort). These people in DC are the cream of the crop - I know how good they are because they offered me a job when I was in my last year at Boalt. Donald Santarelli, the interviewer, told me they only visit two law schools west of the Mississippi - Boalt and Stanford. I don't know if anyone from Stanford got an offer, but I was the only one from Boalt that year.
As an aside, Santarelli was the subject of speculation that he was part of Deep Throat because many believed that DT was not one individual person. In the book by L. Patrick Gray (AG at the end of Watergate) and his son, they found papers on Santarelli in the archives at U Texas donated by Woodward (and Bernstein?) on the Watergate investigation. When Gray phoned Santarelli to confirm this for their book, he hung up on them and refused to talk.
I have a lot of confidence in the DOJ investigating and prosecuting the case properly.

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We are in alignment on this. And as much as many dems hate Comey for his eleventh hour disclosure of the Weiner laptop/Hillary email information, I am pretty confident that he and the rest of the FBI don't take too kindly to collaborating with a foreign adversary on hacking and other shenanigans to influence a presidential campaign. Trump's twittering campaign to denigrate the intelligence community and deflect will just make them more determined to pursue the evidence and necessary prosecutions relentlessly and by the book. And as you aptly point out, career prosecutors at the AG's Office will do their jobs, regardless of politics.

My guess is that Flynn, Page and Manafort* are toast and will serve time, barring pardons. The real question is how wide, and far up the chain, this will be proven to go. The fascinating part of this is that there are taped conversations under the FISA warrants. Should be interesting as this unfolds...

*and Stone (forgot him, so edited to add him)

burritos;842838443 said:

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If McCain were in charge, we'd have troops in Iraq(more),Afghanistan(more), Georgia("We are all Georgians"), Ukraine, Syria, Libya, and the South Sea.

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I'm perfectly happy to have those debates with McCain along partisan lines in which we, as Americans, argue for what is best for America. What I think we all need to reject, as Americans, is having politicians run interference on investigations into Russian meddling in our elections and domestic affairs (see Cruz and Cornyn among others in yesterday's Congressional testimony).

burritos;842838443 said:

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If McCain were in charge, we'd have troops in Iraq(more),Afghanistan(more), Georgia("We are all Georgians"), Ukraine, Syria, Libya, and the South Sea.

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My point was that McCain is a Republican who is pressing for the investigation to go forward, as opposed to the horrible obstructionists in his party. Not sure why you would take what I said as an endorsement of his foreign policy.

MSaviolives;842838447 said:

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We are in alignment on this. And as much as many dems hate Comey for his eleventh hour disclosure of the Weiner laptop/Hillary email information, I am pretty confident that he and the rest of the FBI don't take too kindly to collaborating with a foreign adversary on hacking and other shenanigans to influence a presidential campaign. Trump's twittering campaign to denigrate the intelligence community and deflect will just make them more determined to pursue the evidence and necessary prosecutions relentlessly and by the book. And as you aptly point out, career prosecutors at the AG's Office will do their jobs, regardless of politics.

My guess is that Flynn, Page and Manafort are toast and will serve time, barring pardons. The real question is how wide, and far up the chain, this will be proven to go. The fascinating part of this is that there are taped conversations under the FISA warrants. Should be interesting as this unfolds...

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I'll remind you that Sally Yates was a career prosecutor at the AG's Office and was promptly fired for going against the wishes of the Trump Administration. I don't doubt we have people in the AG office who are capable of doing their job. My concern is the willingness of their bosses.

dajo9;842838450 said:

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I'll remind you that Sally Yates was a career prosecutor at the AG's Office and was promptly fired for going against the wishes of the Trump Administration. I don't doubt we have people in the AG office who are capable of doing their job. My concern is the willingness of their bosses.

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Since Sessions recused himself, that may be less of a problem. It is possible that there could be some kind of mass firing--that would create a constitutional crises. But as Nixon learned, Friday Night Massacres are not a panacea.

This is all about DNC McCarthyism.

The Russians tipped the world that the DNC was diverting democratic campaign funding from demo candidates (Sanders, et al) to candidate Clinton (who IMO was a lousy choice for demo's to run for prez). Go Bernie.

So now we've got a fabricated crisis and a big Putin threat with a crazy Joe McCarthyesque secret list of Russian contacts ("commes". OMG...pathetic.

Go back to the NOV elections of 1917 won by socialist labor parties. Lenin/Trotsky Bolsheviks are in.

Capitalist stooge Kerenski's provisional government is out. Kerenski accepts a job at Hoover / Stanford U.

MSaviolives;842838447 said:

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The real question is how wide, and far up the chain, this will be proven to go. The fascinating part of this is that there are taped conversations under the FISA warrants. Should be interesting as this unfolds...

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I'm still waiting for the administration to declassify all of the evidence they have that Obama the "bad (or sick) man" conducted unlawful surveillance on the Trump campaign.

I would also love to see Trump actually go after all the leakers he complains about. He should get congress to question his staff like they did Yates and Clapper yesterday. I have a feeling a lot of them (including very high level advisors) would plead the fifth.

MSaviolives;842838449 said:

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My point was that McCain is a Republican who is pressing for the investigation to go forward, as opposed to the horrible obstructionists in his party. Not sure why you would take what I said as an endorsement of his foreign policy.

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Whataboutism?

burritos;842838423 said:

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No doubt Lincoln made the right call. I'm convinced the world is better because of that decision. 400k dead? In the big picture, it was worth it.

I'm saying to the extremely divided people of today(i.e. texas secessioners/preppers/militia nationalists in rural america during obama and calexiters under trump) do we war over the seemingly never ending uncompromisable issues like abortion/gun rights/implementing policies to deal with climate change? To this, I opine divorce over forcible preservation of the union.

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Right now there is not enough to secede over, I agree. That could change depending on how the Trump Administration progresses, or based on some unforeseen crisis. These things always seem impossible before that initial "sparking" event happens: Fort Sumter, Pearl Harbor, etc.

burritos;842838485 said:

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Whataboutism?

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Bingo! :beer: (Love you like a brother Burritos)

joe yaks;842838476 said:

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This is all about DNC McCarthyism.

The Russians tipped the world that the DNC was diverting democratic campaign funding from demo candidates (Sanders, et al) to candidate Clinton (who IMO was a lousy choice for demo's to run for prez). Go Bernie.

So now we've got a fabricated crisis and a big Putin threat with a crazy Joe McCarthyesque secret list of Russian contacts ("commes". OMG...pathetic.

Go back to the NOV elections of 1917 won by socialist labor parties. Lenin/Trotsky Bolsheviks are in.

Capitalist stooge Kerenski's provisional government is out. Kerenski accepts a job at Hoover / Stanford U.

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So I guess it is fine with you that the Russians hacked both the dems and the republicans, but only released the dem information. And it is all cool since the DNC’s dirty laundry was revealed. If the script was flipped would you also be cool with it? If it is proved that the Trump campaign actively coordinated the release of the hacked information with the Russians will you still be cool with it?

There are FISA warrants issued, taped conversations, a request for immunity by Flynn, ongoing FBI investigations, congressional investigations, and grand juries convened. We shall see whether this is a fabricated crisis. One of the interesting aspects is the flip on politics: The Ruskies are no longer commies, but are now an oligarchy/kleptocracy. Now Republicans are polling more in favor of Russia and the dems more against—it is a topsy turvy world for sure.

MSaviolives;842838502 said:

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The Ruskies are no longer commies, but are now an oligarchy/kleptocracy. Now Republicans are polling more in favor of Russia and the dems more against—it is a topsy turvy world for sure.

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Isn't it better that they are just selfish greedy bastards instead of idealistic marxists? Means that those in charge prefer to keep what is theirs(ie, not get in a conflagration with U.S. where they'll have a lot to lose) instead of dying for a cause(ie. kill the capitalists with nukes cause there's nothing to lose except long bread lines?).

MSaviolives;842838502 said:

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So I guess it is fine with you that the Russians hacked both the dems and the republicans, but only released the dem information. And it is all cool since the DNC’s dirty laundry was revealed. If the script was flipped would you also be cool with it? If it is proved that the Trump campaign actively coordinated the release of the hacked information with the Russians will you still be cool with it?

There are FISA warrants issued, taped conversations, a request for immunity by Flynn, ongoing FBI investigations, congressional investigations, and grand juries convened. We shall see whether this is a fabricated crisis. One of the interesting aspects is the flip on politics: The Ruskies are no longer commies, but are now an oligarchy/kleptocracy. Now Republicans are polling more in favor of Russia and the dems more against—it is a topsy turvy world for sure.

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That comment by joe yaks was such nonsense I'm surprised you found something to respond to.

Unit2Sucks - of course there was no surveillance of Trump himself. Trump has no allegiance to the truth. He was among those who touted the Obama was born in Kenya absurdity. Anyone with half a brain knew that was a fiction.
Let's say it was a crime to be born in Kenya. Criminal investigators look to MOM - motive, opportunity and means. Why would his mother or her family want her to fly to a third world country to have a baby? There is no reason in the world to do that.
Opportunity - in that time airfare was very expensive (I know - used to travel 10 time zones back to the US in the 1950s). They had no money - the parents were students, the grandparents were poor (Obama SR came from the wrong tribe in Kenya, her parents were just scraping by). Moreover Sr never supported his kid as long as Sr was alive - why would he pay for a flight? Not possible for the President's mother to get there.
Means - same story - no money. So, he's not guilty on all counts.
Moreover, Obama's mom's name was Sydney. David Maraniss notes in his bio of Obama that Doctors in the hospital in Honolulu made a joke of Barrack Obama's birth - "Guess what? Sydney had a baby." So his mom has a perfect alibi to any accusation she went to Kenya. Case closed.

"If" the Russians hacked anything.

There's plenty of dirty laundry to go around.

Agree it's about oligarchs...not GoPz, Demos or Indies.

The GoP and the DNC both tzsuch. Trump really tzuchs as do Hilary and Putin...btw--include tzschithead Paul Ryan.

Secret taped phone conversations.

Flynn was fired by the Obama admin for publishing his paper opposing the administration's support for a caliphate to cause a Syria regime change. His chat on the phone with the Russian ambassador is a bogus charge.

Page has so many business contacts he'll probably perjure himself by omission.

Can you prosecute Prez Trump for kissing Putin's asz? Putin is short man, but Trump looks up to him.

sycasey;842838509 said:

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That comment by joe yaks was such nonsense I'm surprised you found something to respond to.

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Thank you. You are right on.