movielover said:

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**

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movielover said:

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concordtom said:

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movielover said:

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We'd have substantially less forest fires if we logged, thinned, conducted hundreds of controlled burns, and still had logging roads (the Sierra Club sued to remove them). Remove trees killed by beetle infestation, and replanted with appropriate native trees.

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Appropriate native trees. Hmmm.
How's that? You think the burning Canadian forest is invasive species?

And tell me… these beetles, where did they come from and how did they get there?

Honestly, how did you get to be someone who goes against the grain on most all common thinking?

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You're free to be a contrarian. Tahoe reportedly had an area replanted decades ago with non native trees which were much more fire prone. No bueno.

One theory is that the beetles exploded in number because trees aren't producing enough sap to repel them, and lack of water is one alleged reason. When areas have 200%, 400%, 600% of the typical number of trees, that's less water per tree. There are sections of Tahoe that are just a wall of mature trees which is unhealthy and not normal - that's like a family where everyone is 70 years old. Humm. Sounds like the Democrat Congressional leadership. Our forests are out of equilibrium, so when fires start, we now get Superfires and don't have logging roads to get to them. "Let it burn" doesn't work when the forest is unhealthy - see Yellowstone disaster.

Do you thinking removing logging / fire roads was a wise idea?

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movielover said:

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That's the smear from people like you because he is a highly effective speaker with loads of common sense and a "green" background.

You can't debate him, so you use ad hominem attacks as a diversion.

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movielover said:

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Book: Fake Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom, by Patrick Moore.

Description: "We are told that nuclear energy is very dangerous when the numbers prove it is one of the safest technologies. We are told polar bears will go extinct soon when their population has been growing steadily for nearly 50 years.... We are told severe forest fires are caused by climate change when they are actually caused by poor management of fuel load (dead wood) in the forest. We are told that all the coral reefs will die by 2100 when in fact the most diverse coral reefs are found in the warmest oceans in the world. And of course, we are told that invisible CO2 from using fossil fuels, accounting for more than 80 percent of our energy supply, will make the Earth too hot for life. All of these scare stories, and many more, are simply not true. And this book will convince you, your family, and your colleagues of that. There is no substitute for the truth.

"Dr. Patrick Moore was one of the co-founders of Greenpeace and sailed on the first Greenpeace campaign against US H-bomb tests in Alaska. Upon receiving his PhD in ecology, he spent 15 years in the top committee of Greenpeace and led many of its environmental campaigns. Greenpeace began as a group of volunteers with noble intentions. Over the years it became very successful with campaigns to save the whales, stop the mass slaughter of baby seals, prevent toxic dumping into the air, water and earth, and many more. Greenpeace found itself in the early 1980s with more than $100 million coming in annually and close to 1,000 people on the payroll. It had become a business and fundraising moved to the top of the priority list...."

https://www.amazon.com/Fake-Invisible-Catastrophes-Threats-Doom/dp/B08TFYJFMR/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1687979235&refinements=p_27%3APatrick+Moore&s=books&sr=1-1&text=Patrick+Moore

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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movielover said:

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**

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Eh, I'll give it a * rating.

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movielover said:

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Cal88 said:

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concordtom said:

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movielover said:

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concordtom said:

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movielover said:

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We'd have substantially less forest fires if we logged, thinned, conducted hundreds of controlled burns, and still had logging roads (the Sierra Club sued to remove them). Remove trees killed by beetle infestation, and replanted with appropriate native trees.

---

Appropriate native trees. Hmmm.
How's that? You think the burning Canadian forest is invasive species?

And tell me… these beetles, where did they come from and how did they get there?

Honestly, how did you get to be someone who goes against the grain on most all common thinking?

---

You're free to be a contrarian. Tahoe reportedly had an area replanted decades ago with non native trees which were much more fire prone. No bueno.

One theory is that the beetles exploded in number because trees aren't producing enough sap to repel them, and lack of water is one alleged reason. When areas have 200%, 400%, 600% of the typical number of trees, that's less water per tree. There are sections of Tahoe that are just a wall of mature trees which is unhealthy and not normal - that's like a family where everyone is 70 years old. Humm. Sounds like the Democrat Congressional leadership. Our forests are out of equilibrium, so when fires start, we now get Superfires and don't have logging roads to get to them. "Let it burn" doesn't work when the forest is unhealthy - see Yellowstone disaster.

Do you thinking removing logging / fire roads was a wise idea?

---

What did these forests look like 1000 years ago? Was there a "wall of mature trees"? Why or why not?
Were there logging roads?

---

In the past there were no fire suppression methods and means, so previously forest fires were more frequent and burned larger areas, which naturally regulated the intensity of fires.

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We used to have forests in equilibrium - small, medium, and large mature trees. There was also open space - so sunlight could get through. Some forests had substantially less trees, and we didn't have millions of trees infected with beetles. My understanding via Dr. Bill Wattenburg is that there used to be many more smaller fires - which "cleaned" the forests of leaves, pine needles, dead branches and trees, etc. - i.e., FUEL. These smaller fires, cumulatively, burned far more acres than today. Lightning strikes started small fires, and Native Americans started small fires to clear a harvested crop area - to replenish the soil. But again, smaller fires.

Smaller fires burned off lower branches, but didn't reach higher branches, and many mature trees survived smaller fires. We didn't have "super fires", which create their own weather and kill the nutrients in the soil. Some trees evolved to actually drop their pods after a fire - new life. There are certain varieties of trees whose bark is fire resistant - areas of Tahoe were replanted with non native trees which burn easily.

Dr. Bill, a Cal grad, grew up in the forests of Northern California logging and fighting fires. He and many others predicted these fires getting larger and out of
control, like the massive Yellowstone fires (18) of 1988 where over 800,000 acres were burned.

Their policy then was to allow natural fires to burn, but extinguish man-made fires. "The extreme weather conditions and heavy, dry fuel accumulations presented even the most skilled professional firefighters with conditions rarely observed."

"The fires of 1988 created a landscape of burns, partial burns, and unburned areascalled a mosaic. A mosaic provides natural firebreaks and sustains a greater variety of plant and animal species."

Dr. Bill and a team of professionals wrote a report in Quincy (?) outlining a plan for future fire management. It included controlled burns in the early spring and late fall.

Forest management today is complicated as we've built communities into the forests. One of the recent catastrophic NorCal fires was a case in point. Local forest and fire officials wanted to clear trees along major access roads 20' or so on either side to establish a safe travel route. Local residents protested and blocked the plan as they wanted their neighborhood to look "natural". When the fires came many were trapped and died.

No, there weren't logging roads 1,000 years ago; there also weren't retirement communities and families to protect. 100-150 years ago, California also had an active logging industry, and we didn't have government micromanagement which put large restrictions on home and land owners - preventing them from maintaining their own land. Federal lands have also expanded, and my understanding is the Feds don't appear to maintain their forests appropriately.

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dimitrig said:

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movielover said:

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Cal88 said:

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concordtom said:

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movielover said:

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concordtom said:

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movielover said:

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We'd have substantially less forest fires if we logged, thinned, conducted hundreds of controlled burns, and still had logging roads (the Sierra Club sued to remove them). Remove trees killed by beetle infestation, and replanted with appropriate native trees.

---

Appropriate native trees. Hmmm.
How's that? You think the burning Canadian forest is invasive species?

And tell me… these beetles, where did they come from and how did they get there?

Honestly, how did you get to be someone who goes against the grain on most all common thinking?

---

You're free to be a contrarian. Tahoe reportedly had an area replanted decades ago with non native trees which were much more fire prone. No bueno.

One theory is that the beetles exploded in number because trees aren't producing enough sap to repel them, and lack of water is one alleged reason. When areas have 200%, 400%, 600% of the typical number of trees, that's less water per tree. There are sections of Tahoe that are just a wall of mature trees which is unhealthy and not normal - that's like a family where everyone is 70 years old. Humm. Sounds like the Democrat Congressional leadership. Our forests are out of equilibrium, so when fires start, we now get Superfires and don't have logging roads to get to them. "Let it burn" doesn't work when the forest is unhealthy - see Yellowstone disaster.

Do you thinking removing logging / fire roads was a wise idea?

---

What did these forests look like 1000 years ago? Was there a "wall of mature trees"? Why or why not?
Were there logging roads?

---

In the past there were no fire suppression methods and means, so previously forest fires were more frequent and burned larger areas, which naturally regulated the intensity of fires.

---

We used to have forests in equilibrium - small, medium, and large mature trees. There was also open space - so sunlight could get through. Some forests had substantially less trees, and we didn't have millions of trees infected with beetles. My understanding via Dr. Bill Wattenburg is that there used to be many more smaller fires - which "cleaned" the forests of leaves, pine needles, dead branches and trees, etc. - i.e., FUEL. These smaller fires, cumulatively, burned far more acres than today. Lightning strikes started small fires, and Native Americans started small fires to clear a harvested crop area - to replenish the soil. But again, smaller fires.

Smaller fires burned off lower branches, but didn't reach higher branches, and many mature trees survived smaller fires. We didn't have "super fires", which create their own weather and kill the nutrients in the soil. Some trees evolved to actually drop their pods after a fire - new life. There are certain varieties of trees whose bark is fire resistant - areas of Tahoe were replanted with non native trees which burn easily.

Dr. Bill, a Cal grad, grew up in the forests of Northern California logging and fighting fires. He and many others predicted these fires getting larger and out of
control, like the massive Yellowstone fires (18) of 1988 where over 800,000 acres were burned.

Their policy then was to allow natural fires to burn, but extinguish man-made fires. "The extreme weather conditions and heavy, dry fuel accumulations presented even the most skilled professional firefighters with conditions rarely observed."

"The fires of 1988 created a landscape of burns, partial burns, and unburned areascalled a mosaic. A mosaic provides natural firebreaks and sustains a greater variety of plant and animal species."

Dr. Bill and a team of professionals wrote a report in Quincy (?) outlining a plan for future fire management. It included controlled burns in the early spring and late fall.

Forest management today is complicated as we've built communities into the forests. One of the recent catastrophic NorCal fires was a case in point. Local forest and fire officials wanted to clear trees along major access roads 20' or so on either side to establish a safe travel route. Local residents protested and blocked the plan as they wanted their neighborhood to look "natural". When the fires came many were trapped and died.

No, there weren't logging roads 1,000 years ago; there also weren't retirement communities and families to protect. 100-150 years ago, California also had an active logging industry, and we didn't have government micromanagement which put large restrictions on home and land owners - preventing them from maintaining their own land. Federal lands have also expanded, and my understanding is the Feds don't appear to maintain their forests appropriately.

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Who told you the Feds don't maintain the forests properly? Donald Trump?

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Cal88 said:

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Spanish minister pulls a Buttigig:

This is so surreal. The socialist Spanish minister uses a private jet to attend a climate conference. 100 metres before the venue she gets out off the limo and takes a bicycle. The security cars follow her. pic.twitter.com/NkSF3hJrOH

— David Vance (@DVATW) July 11, 2023

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