The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

858,194 Views | 9870 Replies | Last: 12 min ago by movielover
bearister
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Russia-Ukraine war at a glance: what we know on day 288 of the invasion


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/08/russia-ukraine-war-at-a-glance-what-we-know-on-day-288-of-the-invasion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other




Photo: Libkos/AP

Police officers behold a mound of remains of Russian rockets that have hit Kharkiv, Ukraine.
Axios
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Unit2Sucks
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Nothing says "I'm going to win this war" like planning for your eventual demise and relocation to Argentina, err Venezuela.

dimitrig
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Unit2Sucks said:

Nothing says "I'm going to win this war" like planning for your eventual demise and relocation to Argentina, err Venezuela.




I am sure they could all just move to Trump Tower or Mar-a-Lago.

tequila4kapp
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Unit2Sucks said:

Nothing says "I'm going to win this war" like planning for your eventual demise and relocation to Argentina, err Venezuela.


That seems extraordinarily far fetched
movielover
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Haven't been able to keep up with our proxy war news.

Is Ukraine still bleeding men? Are combatants now chiefly Ukrainian and Poles?

Is Russia bringing 200,000 new troops?

Are we really low on ammo and other military equipment?
AunBear89
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movielover said:

Haven't been able to keep up with our proxy war news.

Is Ukraine still bleeding men? Are combatants now chiefly Ukrainian and Poles?

Is Russia bringing 200,000 new troops?

Are we really low on ammo and other military equipment?


Do you have any honest questions, or only the ones spoon fed by Faux News?

Predicted reply: "I don't watch Fox News. Derp. I come up with the exact same dishonest rhetorical questions that Tucker and Hannity and Laura ask. "
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
golden sloth
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AunBear89 said:

movielover said:

Haven't been able to keep up with our proxy war news.

Is Ukraine still bleeding men? Are combatants now chiefly Ukrainian and Poles?

Is Russia bringing 200,000 new troops?

Are we really low on ammo and other military equipment?


Do you have any honest questions, or only the ones spoon fed by Faux News?

Predicted reply: "I don't watch Fox News. Derp. I come up with the exact same dishonest rhetorical questions that Tucker and Hannity and Laura ask. "
Completely agreed.

I think we should ask the Ukrainians if its a proxy war to them.
Cal88
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Some Russian-speaking Ukrainians are going to have a hard time answering questions:



And about a quarter million are already dead or missing in action, they won't be able to answer questions either.
Cal88
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This is the ugly side of the civil war you aren't being told of, Russian speaker being put in her place by Ukrainian nationalists in a train:



Reprisals against pro-Russian civilians in recaptured areas near Kharkov:







Russian speakers getting the Ukrainian shrinkwrap treatment, while the crowd sings the national anthem:





Shopping mall in the western Ukraine heartland of Lviv:



and on the frontline:


Small sample of the ethnocentric indoctrination that has prevailed in Ukraine for over a decade:





Little girls pick it up from their dads, this is not a marginal rally, it's a soccer game in Kiev featuring the national men's team:






Ukrainian member of parliament expressing herself on Ukrainian TV:





dajo9
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Cal88, I know you are French. Any chance your family sided with the Vichy government? I see a lot of similarities.
Cal88
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dajo9 said:

Cal88, I know you are French. Any chance your family sided with the Vichy government? I see a lot of similarities.

You're the one who is being hoodwinked into siding with the people with the swastikas and nazi salutes. I side against them, as did my great uncle, who died fighting them in WW2.

You're also the one who is crass and cynical enough to repeatedly try to smear me by stating unironically that my handle is based on some neo-nazi trope.

What is your opinion of Stepan Bandera, dajo9? Do you know who he is? Do you know how many Jews, Poles and Ukrainian Russians he has exterminated as the head of the largest SS division in WW2?







Does the fact that he is celebrated TODAY as a national hero in Ukraine not bother you a bit? Why does he have dozens of newly built monuments across western Ukraine, commemorative stamps, prominent city thoroughfares recently named after him, official days in his memory, official parades etc...


Left: Stepan Bandera monument, opening ceremony, L'viv, October 13, 2007 (Wikimedia Commons). Right: Bandera monument, Ivano-Frankivsk (Wikimedia Commons).


Left: gate festooned with banners welcoming the Nazi invasion of Ukraine, Zhovkva, 1941. Top banner: "Heil Hitler! Glory to Petliura! Glory to Bandera!" (WWI-era nationalist Symon Petliura's troops massacred tens of thousands of Jews). Middle banner: "Long live independent sovereign Ukrainian nation! Long live the leader Stepan Bandera!" Bottom banner: "Heil Hitler! Glory to the unconquered German and Ukrainian armed forces! Long live Bandera!" (Wikimedia Commons). Right: Bandera monument, Ternopil (Wikimedia Commons)



Left: parade honoring Third Reich Governor-General of Poland Hans Frank, Stanislaviv (now Ivano-Frankivsk), 1941 (Wikimedia Commons). Right: march commemorating the establishment of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician), L'viv, April 28, 2014

Why are there literally hundreds of monuments, plaques, city streets named after not just Bandera, but many other WW2 Ukrainian nationalist nazis who were part of the SS corps, and whose atrocities and zeal for ethnic cleansing even shocked German nazis?

Nazi collaborator monuments in Ukraine - Many new streets and monuments have been erected since a new government took over in 2014

https://forward.com/news/462916/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-ukraine/

And why is Time Magazine Man of the Year, prez/hero/actor/ Zelensky cool with Bandera?!?


What kind of sick society turns out kids behaving this way in 2022?


Is this a normal wedding party picture?


Why is this entire Ukrainian marines platoon singing the praise of Bandera as the father of their nation?


Why is this Ukrainian army tank painted with the nazi German Balkenkreuz insignia?


Why is the head of the Ukrainian armed forces, another Ukrainian leader glorified on a recent Time Magazine cover, honoring Bandera?!?




Does Ukraine have a problem with its brand of nationalism?
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88, I know you are French. Any chance your family sided with the Vichy government? I see a lot of similarities.

You're the one who is being hoodwinked into siding with the people with the swastikas and nazi salutes. I side against them, as did my great uncle, who died fighting them in WW2.

You're also the one who is crass and cynical enough to repeatedly try to smear me by stating unironically that my handle is based on some neo-nazi trope.

What is your opinion of Stepan Bandera, dajo9? Do you know who he is? Do you know how many Jews, Poles and Ukrainian Russians he has exterminated as the head of the largest SS division in WW2?





Does the fact that he is celebrated TODAY as a national hero in Ukraine not bother you a bit? Why does he have dozens of newly built monuments across western Ukraine, commemorative stamps, prominent city thoroughfares recently named after him, official days in his memory, official parades etc...


Left: Stepan Bandera monument, opening ceremony, L'viv, October 13, 2007 (Wikimedia Commons). Right: Bandera monument, Ivano-Frankivsk (Wikimedia Commons).


Left: gate festooned with banners welcoming the Nazi invasion of Ukraine, Zhovkva, 1941. Top banner: "Heil Hitler! Glory to Petliura! Glory to Bandera!" (WWI-era nationalist Symon Petliura's troops massacred tens of thousands of Jews). Middle banner: "Long live independent sovereign Ukrainian nation! Long live the leader Stepan Bandera!" Bottom banner: "Heil Hitler! Glory to the unconquered German and Ukrainian armed forces! Long live Bandera!" (Wikimedia Commons). Right: Bandera monument, Ternopil (Wikimedia Commons)



Left: parade honoring Third Reich Governor-General of Poland Hans Frank, Stanislaviv (now Ivano-Frankivsk), 1941 (Wikimedia Commons). Right: march commemorating the establishment of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician), L'viv, April 28, 2014

Why are there literally hundreds of monuments, plaques, city streets named after not just Bandera, but many other WW2 Ukrainian nationalist nazis who were part of the SS corps, and whose atrocities and zeal for ethnic cleansing even shocked German nazis?

Nazi collaborator monuments in Ukraine - Many new streets and monuments have been erected since a new government took over in 2014

https://forward.com/news/462916/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-ukraine/

And why is Time Magazine Man of the Year, prez/hero/actor/ Zelensky cool with Bandera?!?


What kind of sick society turns out kids behaving this way in 2022?


Is this a normal wedding party picture?


Why is this entire Ukrainian marines platoon singing the praise of Bandera as the father of their nation?


Why is this Ukrainian army tank painted with the nazi German Balkenkreuz insignia?


Does Ukraine have a problem with its brand of nationalism?



You are a proven and consistent liar so there is no reason to believe what you say about your family. You are also a propagandist for a white nationalist dictator (Putin) and your name includes a white nationalist moniker. You show no interest for Ukrainian sovereignty but rather prefer peace through slavery.
movielover
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AunBear89 said:

movielover said:

Haven't been able to keep up with our proxy war news.

Is Ukraine still bleeding men? Are combatants now chiefly Ukrainian and Poles?

Is Russia bringing 200,000 new troops?

Are we really low on ammo and other military equipment?


Do you have any honest questions, or only the ones spoon fed by Faux News?

Predicted reply: "I don't watch Fox News. Derp. I come up with the exact same dishonest rhetorical questions that Tucker and Hannity and Laura ask. "


I rarely watch Fox News.

I listened to a couple of podcasts, one led by attorney
Andrew Napolitano.

Russia allegedly adding 200,000 new troops and 80,000 volunteers. Europe allegedly tired of the bloodshed, and only Poland, Romania, and mercenaries sending troops to Ukraine. If that's true, who wants to enter a bloodbath?

Napolitano's one guest claimed Putin originally just want to ensure the independence of Eastern Ukraine, Crimea, and keep NATO at bay. Said guest acknowledged Russia underestimated the resolve of Western Europe, and they did lose a lot of troops in the beginning. They now claim the Russian troops of today aren't the inexperienced, untested troops of a year ago, and now things have evolved and they're taking more territory.

Another program claimed a only a shell of Ukraine may remain, everything is being eviscerated, Russia will take some, and other countries may negotiate the rest. One of these guests claimed if Russia moved too fast, there is the concern that NATO could reply with nuclear weapons.

I have no dog in this fight. If Europe is sending 100,000 fresh new troops, I'm all ears.

Newly discovered energy supplies the past few decades play an underlying role.

Zelensky banning certain religions not a good look, neither are the Nazi factions.

These guests could be propagandists or wrong, I simply asked some basic questions. Seems that tweeted some folks here.
Cal88
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dajo9 said:




You are a proven and consistent liar so there is no reason to believe what you say about your family. You are also a propagandist for a white nationalist dictator (Putin) and your name includes a white nationalist moniker. You show no interest for Ukrainian sovereignty but rather prefer peace through slavery.

What kind of tone-deaf idiot would double down, triple down on the ret@rded attempt to associate me as a white nationalist because of my handle?

This debate mostly boils down to shear ignorance about the true nature of modern Ukrainian nationalism, which was pushed in the last two decades, and which bears a very disturbing close association with 1940s Ukrainian nationalism.

The evidence I am providing above is irrefutable, that's why you are being reduced to attack me ad hominem here, and not address any of the content and documents I have provided above.
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:




You are a proven and consistent liar so there is no reason to believe what you say about your family. You are also a propagandist for a white nationalist dictator (Putin) and your name includes a white nationalist moniker. You show no interest for Ukrainian sovereignty but rather prefer peace through slavery.

What kind of tone-deaf idiot would double down, triple down on the ret@rded attempt to associate me as a white nationalist because of my handle?

This debate mostly boils down to shear ignorance about the true nature of modern Ukrainian nationalism, which was pushed in the last two decades, and which bears a very disturbing close association with 1940s Ukrainian nationalism.

The evidence I am providing above is irrefutable, that's why you are being reduced to attack me ad hominem here, and not address any of the content and documents I have provided above.



I associate you as a white nationalist because you propagandize for a white nationalist. The fact your name includes a white nationalist moniker is just a curious factoid.
movielover
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I've never heard of nationalist Cal88.

Why would Zelensky ban all opposition parties, ban a religion, but not Nazi's?
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:




You are a proven and consistent liar so there is no reason to believe what you say about your family. You are also a propagandist for a white nationalist dictator (Putin) and your name includes a white nationalist moniker. You show no interest for Ukrainian sovereignty but rather prefer peace through slavery.

What kind of tone-deaf idiot would double down, triple down on the ret@rded attempt to associate me as a white nationalist because of my handle?

This debate mostly boils down to shear ignorance about the true nature of modern Ukrainian nationalism, which was pushed in the last two decades, and which bears a very disturbing close association with 1940s Ukrainian nationalism.

The evidence I am providing above is irrefutable, that's why you are being reduced to attack me ad hominem here, and not address any of the content and documents I have provided above.


Can you explain how this Ukrainian nationalism, as you describe it, justifies a Russian invasion of Ukrainian land?
sycasey
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movielover said:


Why would Zelensky ban all opposition parties, ban a religion, but not Nazi's?

He hasn't done either of those things. Who told you he did?
movielover
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Axios: Zelensky announces ban on 11 Ukrainian political parties with ties to Russia

NPR: Zelenskyy has consolidated Ukraine's TV outlets and dissolved rival political parties

The American Conservative: Ukraine Bans Political Opposition
Not just pro-Russian political parties, but individual dissidents, have been dealt with harshly by Ukrainian law and Ukrainian mobs.

Brahma Chellaney@Chellaney
"Zelensky has jailed his political rivals (including the runner-up of the presidential election), shut down independent media outlets, and used Ukraine's state security agency, SBU, to go after those that refuse to fall in line. He has conveniently labeled his targets pro-Russia."

MROnline: "Zelensky quietly deletes photo of his bodyguard's pro-Hitler patch"

tequila4kapp
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None of it is a good look for Zelinsky. But let's also understand these are not normal times. They have been invaded, are under attack, have been at war for 8 years and they are fighting for their literal survival. In a state of emergency certain civil liberties may be paused, and that's true of virtually any nation.

I can't pretend to know much about Bandera. A quick Wiki read characterizes him as an anti-Communist who drafted Ukraine's proclamation of statehood (independence) and a German Nazi. I do know a little bit about WW2. I can imagine this is a little complicated, what with the Nazis being so anti-communist, Stalin's Holodomor probably not endearing the average Ukrainian to Stalin and communism, etc. Enemy of my Enemy type thing.

Eastern Ukraine is difficult in part because the Russian civilian presence is a post-Holodomor dynamic where, after killing all the Ukrainians, Stalin relocated millions of Russians into eastern Ukraine. So there are likely pro-Russia people there but they are in Ukraine thanks to Russian atrocities.
sycasey
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movielover said:

Axios: Zelensky announces ban on 11 Ukrainian political parties with ties to Russia

NPR: Zelenskyy has consolidated Ukraine's TV outlets and dissolved rival political parties

The American Conservative: Ukraine Bans Political Opposition
Not just pro-Russian political parties, but individual dissidents, have been dealt with harshly by Ukrainian law and Ukrainian mobs.

Brahma Chellaney@Chellaney
"Zelensky has jailed his political rivals (including the runner-up of the presidential election), shut down independent media outlets, and used Ukraine's state security agency, SBU, to go after those that refuse to fall in line. He has conveniently labeled his targets pro-Russia."

MROnline: "Zelensky quietly deletes photo of his bodyguard's pro-Hitler patch"



These are not "all" opposition parties. These are specific parties with ties to Russia.

Same with the church. It's one branch of the Russian Orthodox Church with suspected ties to Moscow. Just one branch, not the whole thing. And it's only a proposal that hasn't been enacted yet.

Next?
DiabloWags
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Janet Yellen's U.S. Treasury Department.
Where the financial "war" against Russia occurs.


"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
dimitrig
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dajo9 said:

Cal88, I know you are French. Any chance your family sided with the Vichy government? I see a lot of similarities.


I can't imagine why Ukrainians are mad at Russians and Russian sympathizers. Makes no sense!
sycasey
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dimitrig said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88, I know you are French. Any chance your family sided with the Vichy government? I see a lot of similarities.


I can't imagine why Ukrainians are mad at Russians and Russian sympathizers. Makes no sense!


You see, Russia had to invade because of these things that happened after they invaded. It's just common sense!
Cal88
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movielover said:

Haven't been able to keep up with our proxy war news.

Is Ukraine still bleeding men? Are combatants now chiefly Ukrainian and Poles?

Is Russia bringing 200,000 new troops?

Are we really low on ammo and other military equipment?

Ukraine has been bleeding men at a very high rate, 700-1,000 men/day in a desperate bid o hold on to Bakhmut, the regional hub in the Donbass, and site of their main fortress in the area. If it falls, the remainder of the Donbass becomes vulnerable.

https://www.ft.com/content/dcdd09bf-440a-4648-9664-6084b11dddd4

Poland has had a large contingent in the war, and may have already lost around 4,000 men, some of the political repercussions from this are going to be felt domestically.

Russia is taking its time, grdually injecting the first half of the 350,000 new troops. These troops are not conscripts, they're reservists who have already served in the military, along with 70,000 volunteers.

This is the kind of somewhat static type of warfare they favor where their heavy artillery advantage makes a big difference. They might keep the slow grind going through winter and the spring mud season. Their main goal is to push Ukrainian losses past their breaking point, and at this rate, they're halfway there.

The main result of NATO's help has been to raise that breaking point, virtually eliminating the prospect for a diplomatic settlement. It doesn't change the final result, and herein lies the tragedy of this war.

At this point Russia has less and less incentive to work out a settlement, as they no longer trust their counterparts, especially with the recent open declarations by both Merkel and former Ukr. prez Poroshenko, who stated that Minsk II was just a temporary truce meant to give Ukraine and NATO time to arm themselves and reconquer the Donbass and Crimea, as opposed to the permanent peace settlement it was meant to be. As a result of this, Russia is going to go all the way, demanding a surrender on its own terms, much less favorable than what Ukraine could have asked for today or earlier this year.

The US/NATO have ordered 100,000 shells from South Korea a month ago, about 2-3 weeks' worth of ammo for Ukraine. Their inventories are running very low on shells and anti-tank weaponry, as well as tanks, FSU planes, the arsenals of Poland, Bulgaria, Slovakia etc have been depleted, with high material and personnel losses having been incurred in the Kherson offensive. Russia has destroyed over 100% of Ukraine's original arsenal, most of its smaller current arsenal is made up of donations/purchases from its neighbors.

With this in mind, the Russians are probably going to keep grinding away, conducting a slow and steady artillery war where they have a huge advantage in fire volume and have a correspondingly favorable body count. They can further ratchet up their grip on the situation through taking out Ukrainian infrastructure.
Unit2Sucks
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sycasey said:

dimitrig said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88, I know you are French. Any chance your family sided with the Vichy government? I see a lot of similarities.


I can't imagine why Ukrainians are mad at Russians and Russian sympathizers. Makes no sense!


You see, Russia had to invade because of these things that happened after they invaded. It's just common sense!
Don't forget that Russia only got into this "special military operation" to rid Ukraine of those oppressive woke people and nazis. Oh and that Russia would also happily end this war now if only Zelensky would let them keep a bunch of land and even though the woke nazis are still there and arguably even worse than ever. These things can all be true at the same time if you believe all of the Kremlin propaganda, that even propagandists paid by the Kremlin no longer can say with a straight face publicly. If you don't believe me now, let me post some Time magazine covers.

Anyone who thinks that Ukraine should reasonable believe that a ceasefire or "treaty" with Russia will be adhered to by Russia hasn't been paying attention. Ukraine is fighting for its existence and it would appear that as long as Putin or his ilk are in power in Russia, Ukraine will continue to face an existential threat. Russia stealing Crimea a decade ago certainly didn't safeguard Ukraine's future. Minsk II wouldn't have resolved a number of the fake issues that Russia claims motivated its desire to invade Ukraine this year and would not have stopped Putin from invading Ukraine to help with his flagging popularity and megalomania.

I don't know what the long-term outlook will be, but it's pretty obvious what Russia's endgame is, and it's not a good one for the people of Ukraine who don't want to be under Russia's thumb. I'm sure corrupt Russians are excited at the prospects though.
golden sloth
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Cal88 said:

movielover said:

Haven't been able to keep up with our proxy war news.

Is Ukraine still bleeding men? Are combatants now chiefly Ukrainian and Poles?

Is Russia bringing 200,000 new troops?

Are we really low on ammo and other military equipment?

Ukraine has been bleeding men at a very high rate, 700-1,000 men/day in a desperate bid o hold on to Bakhmut, the regional hub in the Donbass, and site of their main fortress in the area. If it falls, the remainder of the Donbass becomes vulnerable.

https://www.ft.com/content/dcdd09bf-440a-4648-9664-6084b11dddd4

Poland has had a large contingent in the war, and may have already lost around 4,000 men, some of the political repercussions from this are going to be felt domestically.

Russia is taking its time, grdually injecting the first half of the 350,000 new troops. These troops are not conscripts, they're reservists who have already served in the military, along with 70,000 volunteers.

This is the kind of somewhat static type of warfare they favor where their heavy artillery advantage makes a big difference. They might keep the slow grind going through winter and the spring mud season. Their main goal is to push Ukrainian losses past their breaking point, and at this rate, they're halfway there.

The main result of NATO's help has been to raise that breaking point, virtually eliminating the prospect for a diplomatic settlement. It doesn't change the final result, and herein lies the tragedy of this war.

At this point Russia has less and less incentive to work out a settlement, as they no longer trust their counterparts, especially with the recent open declarations by both Merkel and former Ukr. prez Poroshenko, who stated that Minsk II was just a temporary truce meant to give Ukraine and NATO time to arm themselves and reconquer the Donbass and Crimea, as opposed to the permanent peace settlement it was meant to be. As a result of this, Russia is going to go all the way, demanding a surrender on its own terms, much less favorable than what Ukraine could have asked for today or earlier this year.

The US/NATO have ordered 100,000 shells from South Korea a month ago, about 2-3 weeks' worth of ammo for Ukraine. Their inventories are running very low on shells and anti-tank weaponry, as well as tanks, FSU planes, the arsenals of Poland, Bulgaria, Slovakia etc have been depleted, with high material and personnel losses having been incurred in the Kherson offensive. Russia has destroyed over 100% of Ukraine's original arsenal, most of its smaller current arsenal is made up of donations/purchases from its neighbors.

With this in mind, the Russians are probably going to keep grinding away, conducting a slow and steady artillery war where they have a huge advantage in fire volume and have a correspondingly favorable body count. They can further ratchet up their grip on the situation through taking out Ukrainian infrastructure.


Ukraine's largest supplier of weapons has been Russia. When Russia was retreating during your so-called 'slow grinding advance' they left behind a bunch of ammo and equipment and the amount of ammo and equipment is larger than the combined contributions from NATO. After the ground freezes, Russia will be facing a much better armed ukranian defense. Meanwhile Russia is relying on Iran for drones because they are struggling to manufacture new weapons.

But I do agree that the next six months are going to be bloody as Russia sends in more souls.
Cal88
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tequila4kapp said:

None of it is a good look for Zelinsky. But let's also understand these are not normal times. They have been invaded, are under attack, have been at war for 8 years and they are fighting for their literal survival. In a state of emergency certain civil liberties may be paused, and that's true of virtually any nation.

I can't pretend to know much about Bandera. A quick Wiki read characterizes him as an anti-Communist who drafted Ukraine's proclamation of statehood (independence) and a German Nazi. I do know a little bit about WW2. I can imagine this is a little complicated, what with the Nazis being so anti-communist, Stalin's Holodomor probably not endearing the average Ukrainian to Stalin and communism, etc. Enemy of my Enemy type thing.


The "enemy of my enemy" WW2 argument applies very much to countries like Finland or Romania who allied with the Axis because Stalin's USSR was a bigger threat. The difference is that their alliance wasn't based on nazi ideology.

During WW2, the Finns flew Messerschmitts with Finland-blue swastikas, but they didn't round up and exterminate their Jewish population like the Ukrainians did under Bandera. They did however round up their domestic Russian population and put them in concentration camps where most froze to death. But the point is, they weren't driven by a doctrine of racial superiority, whereas Ukraine's revival of OUN WW2-era racial purity nationalism is pretty troubliing.

Instead of distancing themselves from their nazi past, they are embracing it, as illustrated by the revival of the cult of Bandera, which their leaders now openly embrace:







Quote:


Eastern Ukraine is difficult in part because the Russian civilian presence is a post-Holodomor dynamic where, after killing all the Ukrainians, Stalin relocated millions of Russians into eastern Ukraine. So there are likely pro-Russia people there but they are in Ukraine thanks to Russian atrocities.

There is an erroneous tendency to associate the Holodomor to Russia and the Russians, when in fact it was a dekulakization genocidal class warfare operation carried over by the Bolsheviks. Russian kulaks received the same treatment, the Bolsheviks having purged and gulaged to death a minimum of 20 million Russians, along with the ~7 million genocided in Ukraine. It wasn't unlike what the Khmer Rouge did in Cambodia, eliminating almost all their upper classes and urban middle class.

Ukraine was particularly hit hard because its black earth land created a thriving agricultural class of "kulaks", which the communists in their evil class warfare doctrine thought to annihilate. But to view the Holodomor along national lines is misguided, it is just as miguided to label it as a "Russian atrocity" as it is to label the Khmer Rouge as a Cambodian genocide. In fact the main enemy of Bolsheviks were Russian Orthodox nationalists. That was the main motivation for Lenin in lumping off the Russian western edges into a Greater Ukraine in 1922:



In 1920s Leningrad or Moscow, you were rounded up and shipped to a gulag just for going into a church, or for looking like a well-dressed aristocrat. They've also purged most of their clergy. This goes a long way in explaining the moral and cultural decline in 20th century Russia, its cultural elite having been decapitated in the 1920s by the Bolsheviks.

Finally, the eastern and southern parts of present-day Ukraine had been culturally Russian well before the Holodomor, cities like Mariupol, Sebastopol, Odessa were founded by Catherine the Great in the 18th century and have historically had a lot more in common with Rostov or Volgograd than Lviv or Ivano-Frankivsk, which were culturally Polish, Gallician and were the eastern frontier of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.



The current tragedy of Ukraine is rooted in the imposition of early 20th century post-Austro-Hungarian Gallician Ukrainian nationalism into all of modern Ukraine, a large part of which has a different historical cultural, ethnic and linguistic heritage tied with Russia.
oski003
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Cal88 said:

movielover said:

Haven't been able to keep up with our proxy war news.

Is Ukraine still bleeding men? Are combatants now chiefly Ukrainian and Poles?

Is Russia bringing 200,000 new troops?

Are we really low on ammo and other military equipment?

Ukraine has been bleeding men at a very high rate, 700-1,000 men/day in a desperate bid o hold on to Bakhmut, the regional hub in the Donbass, and site of their main fortress in the area. If it falls, the remainder of the Donbass becomes vulnerable.

https://www.ft.com/content/dcdd09bf-440a-4648-9664-6084b11dddd4

Poland has had a large contingent in the war, and may have already lost around 4,000 men, some of the political repercussions from this are going to be felt domestically.

Russia is taking its time, grdually injecting the first half of the 350,000 new troops. These troops are not conscripts, they're reservists who have already served in the military, along with 70,000 volunteers.

This is the kind of somewhat static type of warfare they favor where their heavy artillery advantage makes a big difference. They might keep the slow grind going through winter and the spring mud season. Their main goal is to push Ukrainian losses past their breaking point, and at this rate, they're halfway there.

The main result of NATO's help has been to raise that breaking point, virtually eliminating the prospect for a diplomatic settlement. It doesn't change the final result, and herein lies the tragedy of this war.

At this point Russia has less and less incentive to work out a settlement, as they no longer trust their counterparts, especially with the recent open declarations by both Merkel and former Ukr. prez Poroshenko, who stated that Minsk II was just a temporary truce meant to give Ukraine and NATO time to arm themselves and reconquer the Donbass and Crimea, as opposed to the permanent peace settlement it was meant to be. As a result of this, Russia is going to go all the way, demanding a surrender on its own terms, much less favorable than what Ukraine could have asked for today or earlier this year.

The US/NATO have ordered 100,000 shells from South Korea a month ago, about 2-3 weeks' worth of ammo for Ukraine. Their inventories are running very low on shells and anti-tank weaponry, as well as tanks, FSU planes, the arsenals of Poland, Bulgaria, Slovakia etc have been depleted, with high material and personnel losses having been incurred in the Kherson offensive. Russia has destroyed over 100% of Ukraine's original arsenal, most of its smaller current arsenal is made up of donations/purchases from its neighbors.

With this in mind, the Russians are probably going to keep grinding away, conducting a slow and steady artillery war where they have a huge advantage in fire volume and have a correspondingly favorable body count. They can further ratchet up their grip on the situation through taking out Ukrainian infrastructure.


Why are these 350,000 trained reservists now entering the war? Why didn't they enter the war months ago? Why enter the untrained when you had trained reservists?
golden sloth
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Since the subject of nazis and Ukraine popped up again. I'll just repost this here.

Unit2Sucks
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This is pretty entertaining.

Everyone knows Russia is a paper tiger and they aren't going to take their BS any more. Putin and Russia have become the laughing stock of the world and even more so now that it's clear China won't lift a finger to defend Russia. Anyone who is still pretending this could morph into WWIII is delusional - Russia may not be able to handle Ukraine, let alone anyone else. Now Kazakhstan is dunking on them.


Cal88
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sycasey said:

movielover said:

Axios: Zelensky announces ban on 11 Ukrainian political parties with ties to Russia

NPR: Zelenskyy has consolidated Ukraine's TV outlets and dissolved rival political parties

The American Conservative: Ukraine Bans Political Opposition
Not just pro-Russian political parties, but individual dissidents, have been dealt with harshly by Ukrainian law and Ukrainian mobs.

Brahma Chellaney@Chellaney
"Zelensky has jailed his political rivals (including the runner-up of the presidential election), shut down independent media outlets, and used Ukraine's state security agency, SBU, to go after those that refuse to fall in line. He has conveniently labeled his targets pro-Russia."

MROnline: "Zelensky quietly deletes photo of his bodyguard's pro-Hitler patch"



These are not "all" opposition parties. These are specific parties with ties to Russia.

Same with the church. It's one branch of the Russian Orthodox Church with suspected ties to Moscow. Just one branch, not the whole thing. And it's only a proposal that hasn't been enacted yet.

Next?

These opposition parties that have been banned by Zelensky represent over 1/3 of the Ukrainian electorate. You can also make an argument that moderate Ukrainian parties, or parties that want to coexist with Russia actually represent a majority of the population, Zelensky himself having been elected on that kind of peace and reconciliation platform that was sympathetic to the large Russophone minority, he was elected with their vote before doing a 180 and morphing into a Bandera apologist, espousing a policy of forced cultural assimilation on the easter/southern third of the country (which represents a majority of Ukraine's GDP).

Note as well that the Kieve regimes have started banning opposition media well before this year, so the war excuse is not valid.





https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/12/09/this-one-map-helps-explain-ukraines-protests/

The church that was banned was the longstanding main Orthodox Church in Ukraine. They banned it because its head would not submit to the current Kiev government nationalistic ideology. Note that the prevailing ideology of the more extreme elements which now dominate the Zelensky regime are a kind of white supremacist paganism similar to the nazis (the black sun in the Azov Battalion logo is basically a religious symbol)



The repression of the long-standing main branch of the Orthodox Church in present day Ukraine is not unlike that of the Catholic Church in Nazi Germany. Hitler resented the fact that the main authority of the Catholic Church was not under the control of his regime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany
Cal88
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oski003 said:

Cal88 said:

movielover said:

Haven't been able to keep up with our proxy war news.

Is Ukraine still bleeding men? Are combatants now chiefly Ukrainian and Poles?

Is Russia bringing 200,000 new troops?

Are we really low on ammo and other military equipment?

Ukraine has been bleeding men at a very high rate, 700-1,000 men/day in a desperate bid o hold on to Bakhmut, the regional hub in the Donbass, and site of their main fortress in the area. If it falls, the remainder of the Donbass becomes vulnerable.

https://www.ft.com/content/dcdd09bf-440a-4648-9664-6084b11dddd4

Poland has had a large contingent in the war, and may have already lost around 4,000 men, some of the political repercussions from this are going to be felt domestically.

Russia is taking its time, grdually injecting the first half of the 350,000 new troops. These troops are not conscripts, they're reservists who have already served in the military, along with 70,000 volunteers.

This is the kind of somewhat static type of warfare they favor where their heavy artillery advantage makes a big difference. They might keep the slow grind going through winter and the spring mud season. Their main goal is to push Ukrainian losses past their breaking point, and at this rate, they're halfway there.

The main result of NATO's help has been to raise that breaking point, virtually eliminating the prospect for a diplomatic settlement. It doesn't change the final result, and herein lies the tragedy of this war.

At this point Russia has less and less incentive to work out a settlement, as they no longer trust their counterparts, especially with the recent open declarations by both Merkel and former Ukr. prez Poroshenko, who stated that Minsk II was just a temporary truce meant to give Ukraine and NATO time to arm themselves and reconquer the Donbass and Crimea, as opposed to the permanent peace settlement it was meant to be. As a result of this, Russia is going to go all the way, demanding a surrender on its own terms, much less favorable than what Ukraine could have asked for today or earlier this year.

The US/NATO have ordered 100,000 shells from South Korea a month ago, about 2-3 weeks' worth of ammo for Ukraine. Their inventories are running very low on shells and anti-tank weaponry, as well as tanks, FSU planes, the arsenals of Poland, Bulgaria, Slovakia etc have been depleted, with high material and personnel losses having been incurred in the Kherson offensive. Russia has destroyed over 100% of Ukraine's original arsenal, most of its smaller current arsenal is made up of donations/purchases from its neighbors.

With this in mind, the Russians are probably going to keep grinding away, conducting a slow and steady artillery war where they have a huge advantage in fire volume and have a correspondingly favorable body count. They can further ratchet up their grip on the situation through taking out Ukrainian infrastructure.

Why are these 350,000 trained reservists now entering the war? Why didn't they enter the war months ago? Why enter the untrained when you had trained reservists?

Part of it is that the Russians expected to have a short war with a decapitation operation, or an early settlement after their show of force. They've managed to capture nearly a quarter of Ukraine with those 200,000 conscripts. They would have gotten that result, a Minsk III type agreement, had it not been for the intervention of NATO.

As well Putin is very risk-averse, going with a larger force has political risks, and most of all, he wanted to hold off the bulk of his forces for fear of NATO jumping in on several fronts (Georgia, Kaliningrad, Baltics, the Pacific etc) with the bulk of his army bogged down in Ukraine.

Since February, there is a greater political acceptance of the war at home, due to the reports of Ukrainian atrocities like the sadistic execution of Russian POWs and the open displays of nazi ideology. And even more so because Russia was able to sustain the economic embargo and sanctions, winning the diplomatic and economic wars. The BRICS are emerging as an economic and political force in the world, and the Russians have managed to win over important global players like India, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, along with China.
golden sloth
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Cal88 said:

oski003 said:

Cal88 said:

movielover said:

Haven't been able to keep up with our proxy war news.

Is Ukraine still bleeding men? Are combatants now chiefly Ukrainian and Poles?

Is Russia bringing 200,000 new troops?

Are we really low on ammo and other military equipment?

Ukraine has been bleeding men at a very high rate, 700-1,000 men/day in a desperate bid o hold on to Bakhmut, the regional hub in the Donbass, and site of their main fortress in the area. If it falls, the remainder of the Donbass becomes vulnerable.

https://www.ft.com/content/dcdd09bf-440a-4648-9664-6084b11dddd4

Poland has had a large contingent in the war, and may have already lost around 4,000 men, some of the political repercussions from this are going to be felt domestically.

Russia is taking its time, grdually injecting the first half of the 350,000 new troops. These troops are not conscripts, they're reservists who have already served in the military, along with 70,000 volunteers.

This is the kind of somewhat static type of warfare they favor where their heavy artillery advantage makes a big difference. They might keep the slow grind going through winter and the spring mud season. Their main goal is to push Ukrainian losses past their breaking point, and at this rate, they're halfway there.

The main result of NATO's help has been to raise that breaking point, virtually eliminating the prospect for a diplomatic settlement. It doesn't change the final result, and herein lies the tragedy of this war.

At this point Russia has less and less incentive to work out a settlement, as they no longer trust their counterparts, especially with the recent open declarations by both Merkel and former Ukr. prez Poroshenko, who stated that Minsk II was just a temporary truce meant to give Ukraine and NATO time to arm themselves and reconquer the Donbass and Crimea, as opposed to the permanent peace settlement it was meant to be. As a result of this, Russia is going to go all the way, demanding a surrender on its own terms, much less favorable than what Ukraine could have asked for today or earlier this year.

The US/NATO have ordered 100,000 shells from South Korea a month ago, about 2-3 weeks' worth of ammo for Ukraine. Their inventories are running very low on shells and anti-tank weaponry, as well as tanks, FSU planes, the arsenals of Poland, Bulgaria, Slovakia etc have been depleted, with high material and personnel losses having been incurred in the Kherson offensive. Russia has destroyed over 100% of Ukraine's original arsenal, most of its smaller current arsenal is made up of donations/purchases from its neighbors.

With this in mind, the Russians are probably going to keep grinding away, conducting a slow and steady artillery war where they have a huge advantage in fire volume and have a correspondingly favorable body count. They can further ratchet up their grip on the situation through taking out Ukrainian infrastructure.

Why are these 350,000 trained reservists now entering the war? Why didn't they enter the war months ago? Why enter the untrained when you had trained reservists?

Part of it is that the Russians expected to have a short war with a decapitation operation, or an early settlement after their show of force. They've managed to capture nearly a quarter of Ukraine with those 200,000 conscripts. They would have gotten that result, a Minsk III type agreement, had it not been for the intervention of NATO.

As well Putin is very risk-averse, going with a larger force has political risks, and most of all, he wanted to hold off the bulk of his forces for fear of NATO jumping in on several fronts (Georgia, Kaliningrad, Baltics, the Pacific etc) with the bulk of his army bogged down in Ukraine.

Since February, there is a greater political acceptance of the war at home, due to the reports of Ukrainian atrocities like the sadistic execution of Russian POWs and the open displays of nazi ideology. And even more so because Russia was able to sustain the economic embargo and sanctions, winning the diplomatic and economic wars. The BRICS are emerging as an economic and political force in the world, and the Russians have managed to win over important global players like India, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, along with China.


I'll just correct a few statements:

1. Russia failed in their rush on Kyiv not because of NATO who was pleading for Zelensky to flee the country, but because Ukraine was able to prevent Russia from holding the airport outside Kyiv and Russia didnt have a logistical capability to support the war that deep into enemy territory. Russia also failed in acknowledging Russia would be greeted as an enemy not a savior.

2. The embargo is working as Russia is struggling to manufacture new weapons to sustain the war effort, all the men in the world dont matter if they dont have a weapon to use.

3. Russia is not winning the diplomatic war. Turkey is still very much a NATO ally. India is just taking advantage of the cheap oil, they do not support Russia or Russia's war. China has not helped Russia at all and has made Russia puppet Chinese talking points as russia is desperate.
oski003
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Cal88 said:

oski003 said:

Cal88 said:

movielover said:

Haven't been able to keep up with our proxy war news.

Is Ukraine still bleeding men? Are combatants now chiefly Ukrainian and Poles?

Is Russia bringing 200,000 new troops?

Are we really low on ammo and other military equipment?

Ukraine has been bleeding men at a very high rate, 700-1,000 men/day in a desperate bid o hold on to Bakhmut, the regional hub in the Donbass, and site of their main fortress in the area. If it falls, the remainder of the Donbass becomes vulnerable.

https://www.ft.com/content/dcdd09bf-440a-4648-9664-6084b11dddd4

Poland has had a large contingent in the war, and may have already lost around 4,000 men, some of the political repercussions from this are going to be felt domestically.

Russia is taking its time, grdually injecting the first half of the 350,000 new troops. These troops are not conscripts, they're reservists who have already served in the military, along with 70,000 volunteers.

This is the kind of somewhat static type of warfare they favor where their heavy artillery advantage makes a big difference. They might keep the slow grind going through winter and the spring mud season. Their main goal is to push Ukrainian losses past their breaking point, and at this rate, they're halfway there.

The main result of NATO's help has been to raise that breaking point, virtually eliminating the prospect for a diplomatic settlement. It doesn't change the final result, and herein lies the tragedy of this war.

At this point Russia has less and less incentive to work out a settlement, as they no longer trust their counterparts, especially with the recent open declarations by both Merkel and former Ukr. prez Poroshenko, who stated that Minsk II was just a temporary truce meant to give Ukraine and NATO time to arm themselves and reconquer the Donbass and Crimea, as opposed to the permanent peace settlement it was meant to be. As a result of this, Russia is going to go all the way, demanding a surrender on its own terms, much less favorable than what Ukraine could have asked for today or earlier this year.

The US/NATO have ordered 100,000 shells from South Korea a month ago, about 2-3 weeks' worth of ammo for Ukraine. Their inventories are running very low on shells and anti-tank weaponry, as well as tanks, FSU planes, the arsenals of Poland, Bulgaria, Slovakia etc have been depleted, with high material and personnel losses having been incurred in the Kherson offensive. Russia has destroyed over 100% of Ukraine's original arsenal, most of its smaller current arsenal is made up of donations/purchases from its neighbors.

With this in mind, the Russians are probably going to keep grinding away, conducting a slow and steady artillery war where they have a huge advantage in fire volume and have a correspondingly favorable body count. They can further ratchet up their grip on the situation through taking out Ukrainian infrastructure.

Why are these 350,000 trained reservists now entering the war? Why didn't they enter the war months ago? Why enter the untrained when you had trained reservists?

Part of it is that the Russians expected to have a short war with a decapitation operation, or an early settlement after their show of force. They've managed to capture nearly a quarter of Ukraine with those 200,000 conscripts. They would have gotten that result, a Minsk III type agreement, had it not been for the intervention of NATO.

As well Putin is very risk-averse, going with a larger force has political risks, and most of all, he wanted to hold off the bulk of his forces for fear of NATO jumping in on several fronts (Georgia, Kaliningrad, Baltics, the Pacific etc) with the bulk of his army bogged down in Ukraine.

Since February, there is a greater political acceptance of the war at home, due to the reports of Ukrainian atrocities like the sadistic execution of Russian POWs and the open displays of nazi ideology. And even more so because Russia was able to sustain the economic embargo and sanctions, winning the diplomatic and economic wars. The BRICS are emerging as an economic and political force in the world, and the Russians have managed to win over important global players like India, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, along with China.


Why draft troops and throw them at the front when 350,000 reservists are available? Your answer regarding political risks doesn't make sense. Drafting is much more a risk than using portions of your reservist army.
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