tequila4kapp said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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The pro Ukraine side seems to ignore the constant NATO push of the past 20 years.

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NATO never made any offer to Ukraine for membership.

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NATO has been arming Ukraine to the gills since 2014, with the intention of crushing the rebellion in the Donbass and eventually retaking Crimea. Before this year, Ukraine was/is a defacto NATO member, with modern NATO training, it had the biggest army in Europe and was ready to overrun the two rebel provinces. This is what precipitated Russian military intervention, as well as Ukraine's intent on acquiring nuclear weapons, which they have the technology and material to do.

Ukraine violated the Minsk II Agreements, had they abided by them, there wouldn't have been a Russian invasion. Both Poronshenko and Merkel recently acknowledged that the Minsk Agreements were a temporary ploy to give NATO time and space to rearm Ukraine with the intention of crushing the Donbass rebel regions and taking back Crimea, which is completely indefendable for the Russians without a wide land bridge through the Azov coast.

People on here are tone deaf with regards to the basic realities in this conflict, for instance, the fact that Crimea is a Russian province, has always been, since the late 1700s, and its annexation to Russia reflects the freewill of its overwhelmingly Russian native population. I've provided the basic facts from wiki and other sources, yet that reality doesn't even register. This is a conflict based on narratives, not facts, it's almost useless to argue in that kind of broken cognitive framework.

There wouldn't be a conflict in the first place if that region were viewed and treated in basic Wilsonian self-determination norms. Autonomy for the Donbass (as outlined in the Minsk II Agreements), protection of cultural minorities in Ukraine and recognition of Crimea as Russian are no different than the way the rest of modern Europe operates.

The Spanish government can no longer repress the use and promotion of the Basque language in Basque country, nor can the federal government of Canada butt into the Quebec educational system and their promotion of French culture. Those are basic precepts of any large modern democracy, yet somehow they don't apply to Ukraine.

The notion that Russia is going to roll into Poland or other EE countries if we don't stop them in Ukraine is ridiculous. The only country they will invade is Lithuania, if that country actively blockades the Kaliningrad enclave, breaking established conventions, or perhaps other Baltic countries if they actively repress their Russian minorities. Those countries however face zero invasion risk if they apply normal modern European standards pertaining to the protection of cultural and ethnic minorities.

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I disagree with your tone deaf accusation. It's a complex region culturally and historically; these events are complex. On the whole I believe Putin overwhelmingly wants to reestablish the prior Soviet land mass and acquire with it additional geopolitical power and influence, as well as solidify his historical and political legacy. It is true there is a Nazi element in eastern Ukraine. It is true there are large Russian populations in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. It is true there are NATO implications. But on the whole I see those elements as convenient factoids which give cover - ie, they are pretextual - to Putin's overarching true objectives.

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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People on here are tone deaf with regards to the basic realities in this conflict, for instance, the fact that Crimea is a Russian province, has always been, since the late 1700s, and its annexation to Russia reflects the freewill of its overwhelmingly Russian native population. I've provided the basic facts from wiki and other sources, yet that reality doesn't even register. This is a conflict based on narratives, not facts, it's almost useless to argue in that kind of broken cognitive framework.

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Also, what the hell are you talking about here? Russia lost Crimea with the breakup of the USSR in 1991. So no, it has not "always been" a Russian province. What is this revisionist history?

If you want a Wiki link, here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea_in_the_post-Soviet_era_(1991-2014)

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Crimea had been part of Russia from 1783, when the Russian Empire annexed it a decade after defeating Ottoman forces in the Battle of Kozludzha, until 1954, when the Soviet government transferred Crimea from the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic for purely arbitrary Soviet Socialist political reasons.

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I notice you skipped over what happened in 1991, which is when Crimea was no longer part of Russia or the USSR. Apology accepted.

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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People on here are tone deaf with regards to the basic realities in this conflict, for instance, the fact that Crimea is a Russian province, has always been, since the late 1700s, and its annexation to Russia reflects the freewill of its overwhelmingly Russian native population. I've provided the basic facts from wiki and other sources, yet that reality doesn't even register. This is a conflict based on narratives, not facts, it's almost useless to argue in that kind of broken cognitive framework.

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Also, what the hell are you talking about here? Russia lost Crimea with the breakup of the USSR in 1991. So no, it has not "always been" a Russian province. What is this revisionist history?

If you want a Wiki link, here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea_in_the_post-Soviet_era_(1991-2014)

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Crimea had been part of Russia from 1783, when the Russian Empire annexed it a decade after defeating Ottoman forces in the Battle of Kozludzha, until 1954, when the Soviet government transferred Crimea from the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic for purely arbitrary Soviet Socialist political reasons.

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I notice you skipped over what happened in 1991, which is when Crimea was no longer part of Russia or the USSR. Apology accepted.

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And you skipped the 200+ years before that,

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I don't need to worry about that. You said Crimea had "always been" part of Russia. All I need is one period of time to disprove that claim.

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movielover said:

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Wasn't NATO also hoping to put long range missiles in Eastern Ukraine?

They never mention how Putin always moves while weak American presidents are in charge (Obama, Biden). Trump allegedly told Putin, "You invade Ukraine, I bomb Moscow." President Trump also sent Javelin missiles to Ukraine (Obama sent pillows). Blinken saw Russia manning troops at the border, why didn't they act more swiftly? Their strategy was to consult w CCP China. Really?

It sometimes seems they wanted the invasion. Scott Ritter claims France and Germany are once again talking up a European defense alliance, something Putin was asking for.

If Russia improves moving natural resources to
China, there's a win-win for them.

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movielover said:

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He knew how to handle Putin and Xi.

When Trump was in his first few months as POTUS, he had Chairman Xi and his family to Mar-a-lago. There, his granddaughter sang a song in perfect Madarin. Beautiful.

Then during dinner, President Trump gave the command to drop a bomb down some terrorist holes in the Middle East, right during dinner with Chairman Xi!

At the time, it was viewed as being very disrespectful to the Chinese PM. I was against it.

In retrospect, I believe it was a brilliant move, showing that he is decisive and unpredictable. I'm sure Putin was well aware of this.

P.S. One of the missile lauches we did during the Trump presidency was from a submarine thousands of miles away. It might have been when he was trading barbs with Chairman Kim. A deft way of demonstrating our military capabilities.

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Big C said:

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movielover said:

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He knew how to handle Putin and Xi.

When Trump was in his first few months as POTUS, he had Chairman Xi and his family to Mar-a-lago. There, his granddaughter sang a song in perfect Madarin. Beautiful.

Then during dinner, President Trump gave the command to drop a bomb down some terrorist holes in the Middle East, right during dinner with Chairman Xi!

At the time, it was viewed as being very disrespectful to the Chinese PM. I was against it.

In retrospect, I believe it was a brilliant move, showing that he is decisive and unpredictable. I'm sure Putin was well aware of this.

P.S. One of the missile lauches we did during the Trump presidency was from a submarine thousands of miles away. It might have been when he was trading barbs with Chairman Kim. A deft way of demonstrating our military capabilities.

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Trump was obviously a genius getting what he wanted from people and was able to transfer that to international diplomacy. The only reason I can figure that some pundits said that Trump was sorta like Putin's b**** is that they were radical, undocumented Socialists trying to advance their leftist agenda. Sad.

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juarezbear said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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People on here are tone deaf with regards to the basic realities in this conflict, for instance, the fact that Crimea is a Russian province, has always been, since the late 1700s, and its annexation to Russia reflects the freewill of its overwhelmingly Russian native population. I've provided the basic facts from wiki and other sources, yet that reality doesn't even register. This is a conflict based on narratives, not facts, it's almost useless to argue in that kind of broken cognitive framework.

---

Also, what the hell are you talking about here? Russia lost Crimea with the breakup of the USSR in 1991. So no, it has not "always been" a Russian province. What is this revisionist history?

If you want a Wiki link, here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea_in_the_post-Soviet_era_(1991-2014)

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Crimea had been part of Russia from 1783, when the Russian Empire annexed it a decade after defeating Ottoman forces in the Battle of Kozludzha, until 1954, when the Soviet government transferred Crimea from the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic for purely arbitrary Soviet Socialist political reasons.

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I notice you skipped over what happened in 1991, which is when Crimea was no longer part of Russia or the USSR. Apology accepted.

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And you skipped the 200+ years before that,

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I don't need to worry about that. You said Crimea had "always been" part of Russia. All I need is one period of time to disprove that claim.

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Disingenuously pedantic, as if the Russian Crimeans just vaporized in 1991. What did vaporize then was all political and economic institutions in Russia with that country plunging in a complete meltdown, with a large proportion of Russians going into abject poverty. Since then, their economy has been stable, and that of Crimea has never been better, especially with their water access having been restored, while the economy of Ukraine has regressed considerably, falling to third world levels.

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Hey 88 - If you could wave a magic wand, what would you want the world order to look like?

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Quote:

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"No one feeds us anything, mum," he complained. "Our supply is ****, to be honest. We draw water from puddles, then we strain it and drink it."

"Where are the missiles that Putin boasted about?" he asked. "There is a high-rise building right in front of us. Our soldiers can't hit it. We need one Caliber cruise missile and that's it."

"Reinforcements: no; communication: no", responded a soldier to questions from the grieving parent about the status of the men who had survived a Ukrainian onslaught. "They said we weren't allowed to retreat. Otherwise, we may be shot."

In a third intercept from 26 October a soldier in the Donetsk region tells his wife how he had fled with three others from the bloodshed and was contemplating surrender. "I'm in a sleeping bag, all wet, coughing, generally ****ed up," he said. "We were all allowed to be slaughtered." The soldier's wife declined to comment when approached by this newspaper.

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Quote:

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Vladimir Putin has made a rare admission of his country's military challenges in the 10-month-old war in Ukraine as Volodymyr Zelenskiy visited a key city in eastern Ukraine that Moscow has failed to capture despite months of relentless shelling.

In a video message to Russia's security services, Putin said the situation in the four Russian-occupied Ukrainian regions was "extremely complicated", and urged security agencies to intensify their efforts to identify "traitors, spies and diversionists".

Putin's speech once again highlighted Moscow's growing acknowledgement that the war in Ukraine is not going to plan. Earlier this month, the Russian leader said the conflict in Ukraine could turn into a "long-term process", after Moscow was forced to abandon some of the territories it annexed illegally in September, notably fleeing the city of Kherson.

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Unit2Sucks said:

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LOL Russia's military is a joke. The Guardian posted some intercepts of phone calls that Ukraine provided them and they are about as you would expect unless you are dumb enough to fall for Putin's BS.

Excerpts:

Quote:

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"No one feeds us anything, mum," he complained. "Our supply is ****, to be honest. We draw water from puddles, then we strain it and drink it."

"Where are the missiles that Putin boasted about?" he asked. "There is a high-rise building right in front of us. Our soldiers can't hit it. We need one Caliber cruise missile and that's it."

"Reinforcements: no; communication: no", responded a soldier to questions from the grieving parent about the status of the men who had survived a Ukrainian onslaught. "They said we weren't allowed to retreat. Otherwise, we may be shot."

In a third intercept from 26 October a soldier in the Donetsk region tells his wife how he had fled with three others from the bloodshed and was contemplating surrender. "I'm in a sleeping bag, all wet, coughing, generally ****ed up," he said. "We were all allowed to be slaughtered." The soldier's wife declined to comment when approached by this newspaper.

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Even Putin is now publicly acknowledging that things aren't going as well as his propaganda (and his BI cheerleaders) would attempt to have you believe. Will that change their messaging? Of course not.

Quote:

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Vladimir Putin has made a rare admission of his country's military challenges in the 10-month-old war in Ukraine as Volodymyr Zelenskiy visited a key city in eastern Ukraine that Moscow has failed to capture despite months of relentless shelling.

In a video message to Russia's security services, Putin said the situation in the four Russian-occupied Ukrainian regions was "extremely complicated", and urged security agencies to intensify their efforts to identify "traitors, spies and diversionists".

Putin's speech once again highlighted Moscow's growing acknowledgement that the war in Ukraine is not going to plan. Earlier this month, the Russian leader said the conflict in Ukraine could turn into a "long-term process", after Moscow was forced to abandon some of the territories it annexed illegally in September, notably fleeing the city of Kherson.

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oski003 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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LOL Russia's military is a joke. The Guardian posted some intercepts of phone calls that Ukraine provided them and they are about as you would expect unless you are dumb enough to fall for Putin's BS.

Excerpts:

Quote:

---

"No one feeds us anything, mum," he complained. "Our supply is ****, to be honest. We draw water from puddles, then we strain it and drink it."

"Where are the missiles that Putin boasted about?" he asked. "There is a high-rise building right in front of us. Our soldiers can't hit it. We need one Caliber cruise missile and that's it."

"Reinforcements: no; communication: no", responded a soldier to questions from the grieving parent about the status of the men who had survived a Ukrainian onslaught. "They said we weren't allowed to retreat. Otherwise, we may be shot."

In a third intercept from 26 October a soldier in the Donetsk region tells his wife how he had fled with three others from the bloodshed and was contemplating surrender. "I'm in a sleeping bag, all wet, coughing, generally ****ed up," he said. "We were all allowed to be slaughtered." The soldier's wife declined to comment when approached by this newspaper.

---

Even Putin is now publicly acknowledging that things aren't going as well as his propaganda (and his BI cheerleaders) would attempt to have you believe. Will that change their messaging? Of course not.

Quote:

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Vladimir Putin has made a rare admission of his country's military challenges in the 10-month-old war in Ukraine as Volodymyr Zelenskiy visited a key city in eastern Ukraine that Moscow has failed to capture despite months of relentless shelling.

In a video message to Russia's security services, Putin said the situation in the four Russian-occupied Ukrainian regions was "extremely complicated", and urged security agencies to intensify their efforts to identify "traitors, spies and diversionists".

Putin's speech once again highlighted Moscow's growing acknowledgement that the war in Ukraine is not going to plan. Earlier this month, the Russian leader said the conflict in Ukraine could turn into a "long-term process", after Moscow was forced to abandon some of the territories it annexed illegally in September, notably fleeing the city of Kherson.

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Russia needs to put their soldiers up in Holiday Inns while fighting a war. Morale would be much better.

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Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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LOL Russia's military is a joke. The Guardian posted some intercepts of phone calls that Ukraine provided them and they are about as you would expect unless you are dumb enough to fall for Putin's BS.

Excerpts:

Quote:

---

"No one feeds us anything, mum," he complained. "Our supply is ****, to be honest. We draw water from puddles, then we strain it and drink it."

"Where are the missiles that Putin boasted about?" he asked. "There is a high-rise building right in front of us. Our soldiers can't hit it. We need one Caliber cruise missile and that's it."

"Reinforcements: no; communication: no", responded a soldier to questions from the grieving parent about the status of the men who had survived a Ukrainian onslaught. "They said we weren't allowed to retreat. Otherwise, we may be shot."

In a third intercept from 26 October a soldier in the Donetsk region tells his wife how he had fled with three others from the bloodshed and was contemplating surrender. "I'm in a sleeping bag, all wet, coughing, generally ****ed up," he said. "We were all allowed to be slaughtered." The soldier's wife declined to comment when approached by this newspaper.

---

Even Putin is now publicly acknowledging that things aren't going as well as his propaganda (and his BI cheerleaders) would attempt to have you believe. Will that change their messaging? Of course not.

Quote:

---

Vladimir Putin has made a rare admission of his country's military challenges in the 10-month-old war in Ukraine as Volodymyr Zelenskiy visited a key city in eastern Ukraine that Moscow has failed to capture despite months of relentless shelling.

In a video message to Russia's security services, Putin said the situation in the four Russian-occupied Ukrainian regions was "extremely complicated", and urged security agencies to intensify their efforts to identify "traitors, spies and diversionists".

Putin's speech once again highlighted Moscow's growing acknowledgement that the war in Ukraine is not going to plan. Earlier this month, the Russian leader said the conflict in Ukraine could turn into a "long-term process", after Moscow was forced to abandon some of the territories it annexed illegally in September, notably fleeing the city of Kherson.

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Russia needs to put their soldiers up in Holiday Inns while fighting a war. Morale would be much better.

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Yes, I'm sure this is just typical gripes from soldiers who don't know how lucky they are to be fighting Putin's virtuous war.

Maybe they will find some fentanyl in their Halloween candy to help pass the time between foraging for food and bandaids and reading wikipedia printouts to learn how to operate their obsolete weaponry.

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