The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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oski003
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In reply to sycasey • 3:19p
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
If the Israeli government does not want people to assume they have genocidal intent, then they should stop saying that they do.


Picking an extremist viewpoint/person and suggesting that person speaks for the Israeli government is more bad faith. He represents an extreme (and abhorrent) viewpoint that is not the government's position and not widely held in Israel. Israel has agreed to a cease fire - Hamas has not.

Seems like he has a pretty high position in the government, though. Him still being there despite saying stuff like this suggests that his views are not actually extreme.

I actually think it's weird that you keep dismissing these guys as not relevant to Israel's positions when it seems pretty obvious that they are.


FINANCE
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sycasey
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In reply to oski003 • 4:58p
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
If the Israeli government does not want people to assume they have genocidal intent, then they should stop saying that they do.


Picking an extremist viewpoint/person and suggesting that person speaks for the Israeli government is more bad faith. He represents an extreme (and abhorrent) viewpoint that is not the government's position and not widely held in Israel. Israel has agreed to a cease fire - Hamas has not.

Seems like he has a pretty high position in the government, though. Him still being there despite saying stuff like this suggests that his views are not actually extreme.

I actually think it's weird that you keep dismissing these guys as not relevant to Israel's positions when it seems pretty obvious that they are.


FINANCE

Yes, a member of the Cabinet. Usually someone who meets with the Prime Minister regularly (as the Secretary of the Treasury would in the US). Am I not supposed to take him seriously when he talks about governmental policy?
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Cal88
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In reply to sycasey • 6:37p
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
If the Israeli government does not want people to assume they have genocidal intent, then they should stop saying that they do.


Picking an extremist viewpoint/person and suggesting that person speaks for the Israeli government is more bad faith. He represents an extreme (and abhorrent) viewpoint that is not the government's position and not widely held in Israel. Israel has agreed to a cease fire - Hamas has not.

Seems like he has a pretty high position in the government, though. Him still being there despite saying stuff like this suggests that his views are not actually extreme.

I actually think it's weird that you keep dismissing these guys as not relevant to Israel's positions when it seems pretty obvious that they are.


FINANCE

Yes, a member of the Cabinet. Usually someone who meets with the Prime Minister regularly (as the Secretary of the Treasury would in the US). Am I not supposed to take him seriously when he talks about governmental policy?


Smotrich and Ben-Gvir are the most powerful members of Netanyahu's cabinet. Ben-Gvir is the National Security Minister, while Smotrich in his position of finance chief oversees and implements the funding and execution of the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. This pair has been the key figures in the radical far right zionist ideology, advocating more assertive and less covert approaches to the Greater Israel project.



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sycasey
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7:25p
I'm sure at one time Smotrich and Ben-Gvir were fringe figures in Israeli politics. That no longer seems to be the case.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 8:15p
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
If the Israeli government does not want people to assume they have genocidal intent, then they should stop saying that they do.


Picking an extremist viewpoint/person and suggesting that person speaks for the Israeli government is more bad faith. He represents an extreme (and abhorrent) viewpoint that is not the government's position and not widely held in Israel. Israel has agreed to a cease fire - Hamas has not.

Seems like he has a pretty high position in the government, though. Him still being there despite saying stuff like this suggests that his views are not actually extreme.

I actually think it's weird that you keep dismissing these guys as not relevant to Israel's positions when it seems pretty obvious that they are.

You (and Eastern Oregon Bear below) obviously have no idea how coalition governments work in parliamentarian system such as the one Israel has. That is the unfortunate reality of Israeli government where no party has a majority - small parties (often with extreme views) are given positions in the coalition cabinet. It doesn't mean their views are widespread or have influence on government policy.

And in the case of decisions regarding Gaza, Israel is operating under an emergency war cabinet which includes the minority parties. As a result, extremist parties have lost their ability to influence war power. So in that context, this guy is literally irrelevant to Israel's position on Gaza which is being established by the larger cabinet.

In terms of your final sentence, there is nothing "obvious" about this wacko having actual influence. What is your evidence that he does?
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 8:22p
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Israel can do what it wants. We don't have total control over their decisions. I think that:

1. "Removing Hamas from Gaza forever" is not an achievable military goal and is akin to the US trying to defeat all terrorism post-9/11. That's just not how it works.

2. If Israel wants to pursue this (IMO) impossible goal, the US does not need to keep giving them any help. Let them do it on their own.

This is now the third strawman you've constructed on this issue and it seems pretty clear it is not an accident. Removing Hamas from power is not the same thing as removing Hamas from Gaza forever.

How do you prevent Hamas from returning to power? They're not an organization led by one guy. Continued occupation?

How did the US/allies prevent the fascists from returning to power in Germany, Italy and Japan? They established governance systems and eventually governments where the fascists were not allowed. Germany still had Nazis in its society - but they were deprived of power.

Israel, the US, Egypt and particularly Qatar can defund and sideline Hamas if they want to, particularly now that Iran and Hezbollah have been sidelined. And if, over time, the Palestinians absolutely insist on having Hamas represent them, then they won't get a state and will suffer the consequences. They have agency.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 8:32p
sycasey said:
I'm sure at one time Smotrich and Ben-Gvir were fringe figures in Israeli politics. That no longer seems to be the case.

You keep making these overly broad conclusory statements while providing no explanation or evidence. I get it - thinking and explaining is hard.

Since your concerned about the radicalization of the Israeli government, I can't help but wonder. Which members of Hamas/Gaza government are in favor of peace with Israel and a two state solution? Can you name one?

Because you have a real obsession with extremist Israeli politicians, but a real blind spot for criticizing anyone in Hamas (or for that matter in the PA).

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sycasey
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In reply to BearGoggles • 8:35p
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
I'm sure at one time Smotrich and Ben-Gvir were fringe figures in Israeli politics. That no longer seems to be the case.

You keep making these overly broad conclusory statements while providing no explanation or evidence. I get it - thinking and explaining is hard.

Since your concerned about the radicalization of the Israeli government, I can't help but wonder. Which members of Hamas/Gaza government are in favor of peace with Israel and a two state solution? Can you name one?

Because you have a real obsession with extremist Israeli politicians, but a real blind spot for criticizing anyone in Hamas (or for that matter in the PA).


I have called Hamas a violent terrorist organization multiple times on this board. Obviously they are not going to be part of the solution either. Happy now?

I talk about Israel more often because they clearly have more power in this conflict and because we (the US) still support them despite what I see as unacceptable actions and policies. How many times must I explain this?

If Israel is going to enact some kind of Marshall Plan to reconstruct government in Gaza, then that will be great. That's not what their ministers are talking about, though, so I don't believe that is the plan. Seems like the plan is to remove the Palestinians (starve them out) and take over the territory. My evidence for that is ministers in the Israeli government saying that is the plan. If you have evidence that they have another plan, please present it.
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