The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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oski003
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In reply to sycasey • 3:19p, 8/18/25
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
If the Israeli government does not want people to assume they have genocidal intent, then they should stop saying that they do.


Picking an extremist viewpoint/person and suggesting that person speaks for the Israeli government is more bad faith. He represents an extreme (and abhorrent) viewpoint that is not the government's position and not widely held in Israel. Israel has agreed to a cease fire - Hamas has not.

Seems like he has a pretty high position in the government, though. Him still being there despite saying stuff like this suggests that his views are not actually extreme.

I actually think it's weird that you keep dismissing these guys as not relevant to Israel's positions when it seems pretty obvious that they are.


FINANCE
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sycasey
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In reply to oski003 • 4:58p, 8/18/25
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
If the Israeli government does not want people to assume they have genocidal intent, then they should stop saying that they do.


Picking an extremist viewpoint/person and suggesting that person speaks for the Israeli government is more bad faith. He represents an extreme (and abhorrent) viewpoint that is not the government's position and not widely held in Israel. Israel has agreed to a cease fire - Hamas has not.

Seems like he has a pretty high position in the government, though. Him still being there despite saying stuff like this suggests that his views are not actually extreme.

I actually think it's weird that you keep dismissing these guys as not relevant to Israel's positions when it seems pretty obvious that they are.


FINANCE

Yes, a member of the Cabinet. Usually someone who meets with the Prime Minister regularly (as the Secretary of the Treasury would in the US). Am I not supposed to take him seriously when he talks about governmental policy?
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Cal88
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In reply to sycasey • 6:37p, 8/18/25
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
If the Israeli government does not want people to assume they have genocidal intent, then they should stop saying that they do.


Picking an extremist viewpoint/person and suggesting that person speaks for the Israeli government is more bad faith. He represents an extreme (and abhorrent) viewpoint that is not the government's position and not widely held in Israel. Israel has agreed to a cease fire - Hamas has not.

Seems like he has a pretty high position in the government, though. Him still being there despite saying stuff like this suggests that his views are not actually extreme.

I actually think it's weird that you keep dismissing these guys as not relevant to Israel's positions when it seems pretty obvious that they are.


FINANCE

Yes, a member of the Cabinet. Usually someone who meets with the Prime Minister regularly (as the Secretary of the Treasury would in the US). Am I not supposed to take him seriously when he talks about governmental policy?


Smotrich and Ben-Gvir are the most powerful members of Netanyahu's cabinet. Ben-Gvir is the National Security Minister, while Smotrich in his position of finance chief oversees and implements the funding and execution of the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. This pair has been the key figures in the radical far right zionist ideology, advocating more assertive and less covert approaches to the Greater Israel project.



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sycasey
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7:25p, 8/18/25
I'm sure at one time Smotrich and Ben-Gvir were fringe figures in Israeli politics. That no longer seems to be the case.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 8:15p, 8/18/25
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
If the Israeli government does not want people to assume they have genocidal intent, then they should stop saying that they do.


Picking an extremist viewpoint/person and suggesting that person speaks for the Israeli government is more bad faith. He represents an extreme (and abhorrent) viewpoint that is not the government's position and not widely held in Israel. Israel has agreed to a cease fire - Hamas has not.

Seems like he has a pretty high position in the government, though. Him still being there despite saying stuff like this suggests that his views are not actually extreme.

I actually think it's weird that you keep dismissing these guys as not relevant to Israel's positions when it seems pretty obvious that they are.

You (and Eastern Oregon Bear below) obviously have no idea how coalition governments work in parliamentarian system such as the one Israel has. That is the unfortunate reality of Israeli government where no party has a majority - small parties (often with extreme views) are given positions in the coalition cabinet. It doesn't mean their views are widespread or have influence on government policy.

And in the case of decisions regarding Gaza, Israel is operating under an emergency war cabinet which includes the minority parties. As a result, extremist parties have lost their ability to influence war power. So in that context, this guy is literally irrelevant to Israel's position on Gaza which is being established by the larger cabinet.

In terms of your final sentence, there is nothing "obvious" about this wacko having actual influence. What is your evidence that he does?
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 8:22p, 8/18/25
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Israel can do what it wants. We don't have total control over their decisions. I think that:

1. "Removing Hamas from Gaza forever" is not an achievable military goal and is akin to the US trying to defeat all terrorism post-9/11. That's just not how it works.

2. If Israel wants to pursue this (IMO) impossible goal, the US does not need to keep giving them any help. Let them do it on their own.

This is now the third strawman you've constructed on this issue and it seems pretty clear it is not an accident. Removing Hamas from power is not the same thing as removing Hamas from Gaza forever.

How do you prevent Hamas from returning to power? They're not an organization led by one guy. Continued occupation?

How did the US/allies prevent the fascists from returning to power in Germany, Italy and Japan? They established governance systems and eventually governments where the fascists were not allowed. Germany still had Nazis in its society - but they were deprived of power.

Israel, the US, Egypt and particularly Qatar can defund and sideline Hamas if they want to, particularly now that Iran and Hezbollah have been sidelined. And if, over time, the Palestinians absolutely insist on having Hamas represent them, then they won't get a state and will suffer the consequences. They have agency.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 8:32p, 8/18/25
sycasey said:
I'm sure at one time Smotrich and Ben-Gvir were fringe figures in Israeli politics. That no longer seems to be the case.

You keep making these overly broad conclusory statements while providing no explanation or evidence. I get it - thinking and explaining is hard.

Since your concerned about the radicalization of the Israeli government, I can't help but wonder. Which members of Hamas/Gaza government are in favor of peace with Israel and a two state solution? Can you name one?

Because you have a real obsession with extremist Israeli politicians, but a real blind spot for criticizing anyone in Hamas (or for that matter in the PA).

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sycasey
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In reply to BearGoggles • 8:35p, 8/18/25
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
I'm sure at one time Smotrich and Ben-Gvir were fringe figures in Israeli politics. That no longer seems to be the case.

You keep making these overly broad conclusory statements while providing no explanation or evidence. I get it - thinking and explaining is hard.

Since your concerned about the radicalization of the Israeli government, I can't help but wonder. Which members of Hamas/Gaza government are in favor of peace with Israel and a two state solution? Can you name one?

Because you have a real obsession with extremist Israeli politicians, but a real blind spot for criticizing anyone in Hamas (or for that matter in the PA).


I have called Hamas a violent terrorist organization multiple times on this board. Obviously they are not going to be part of the solution either. Happy now?

I talk about Israel more often because they clearly have more power in this conflict and because we (the US) still support them despite what I see as unacceptable actions and policies. How many times must I explain this?

If Israel is going to enact some kind of Marshall Plan to reconstruct government in Gaza, then that will be great. That's not what their ministers are talking about, though, so I don't believe that is the plan. Seems like the plan is to remove the Palestinians (starve them out) and take over the territory. My evidence for that is ministers in the Israeli government saying that is the plan. If you have evidence that they have another plan, please present it.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 11:17p, 8/18/25
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
I'm sure at one time Smotrich and Ben-Gvir were fringe figures in Israeli politics. That no longer seems to be the case.

You keep making these overly broad conclusory statements while providing no explanation or evidence. I get it - thinking and explaining is hard.

Since your concerned about the radicalization of the Israeli government, I can't help but wonder. Which members of Hamas/Gaza government are in favor of peace with Israel and a two state solution? Can you name one?

Because you have a real obsession with extremist Israeli politicians, but a real blind spot for criticizing anyone in Hamas (or for that matter in the PA).


I have called Hamas a violent terrorist organization multiple times on this board. Obviously they are not going to be part of the solution either. Happy now?

I talk about Israel more often because they clearly have more power in this conflict and because we (the US) still support them despite what I see as unacceptable actions and policies. How many times must I explain this?

If Israel is going to enact some kind of Marshall Plan to reconstruct government in Gaza, then that will be great. That's not what their ministers are talking about, though, so I don't believe that is the plan. Seems like the plan is to remove the Palestinians (starve them out) and take over the territory. My evidence for that is ministers in the Israeli government saying that is the plan. If you have evidence that they have another plan, please present it.

For one, Israel is not starving out the Gazans. Hamas is starving the Gazans. You don't see any starving Hamas operatives or, for that matter, many starving adults.

GHF is backed by the Israeli and US governments and has surged food into Gaza. That is one of the things Bibi and his ministers are "talking about."



If Israel wanted Gaza, it would not have left 20 years ago. It could have removed the Palestinians in the past 20 months but has not done so. The current plan - after Hamas rejected the most recent cease fire proposal - was to retake Gaza temporarily. That was viewed as a last resort after Hamas rejected the plan supported by Qatar, US, and Egypt among others. Netanyahu specifically said they did not want to permanently occupy Gaza but would invade to remove Hamas from power. Clearly the intention was to increase pressure on Hamas.

Notably, as of this evening, it appears Hamas may have blinked as there are reports they have accepted the cease fire. I'm doubtful as we've seen this before, but hopefully that is the case.

In terms of the bolded, your brain has been polluted by amoral notions of intersectionality and victimhood (probably with "anti-colonialism" thrown in). The fact that Israeli's have power doesn't make Hamas the victims.

It is wrong to hold the Israelis to a higher standard based on your view of "power" for many reasons, not the least of which it expresses the bigotry of low expectations. Do you truly find the Israeli "actions and polices" worse than Hamas'? If so, then you should say so. If not, then you're really just arguing that Israel should surrender because Hamas is vile and you excuse it. You wouldn't impost that obligation on the US (or probably any other country) - only Israel.

I note that you still have not suggested how Hamas can be removed and/or a lasting peace can be reached. You just want Israel to surrender and go back to 10/6 where Gaza eventually becomes a threat again.


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sycasey
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In reply to BearGoggles • 11:30p, 8/18/25
BearGoggles said:
In terms of the bolded, your brain has been polluted by amoral notions of intersectionality and victimhood (probably with "anti-colonialism" thrown in). The fact that Israeli's have power doesn't make Hamas the victims.

It is wrong to hold the Israelis to a higher standard based on your view of "power" for many reasons, not the least of which it expresses the bigotry of low expectations. Do you truly find the Israeli "actions and polices" worse than Hamas'? If so, then you should say so. If not, then you're really just arguing that Israel should surrender because Hamas is vile and you excuse it. You wouldn't impost that obligation on the US (or probably any other country) - only Israel.

I note that you still have not suggested how Hamas can be removed and/or a lasting peace can be reached. You just want Israel to surrender and go back to 10/6 where Gaza eventually becomes a threat again.

This last part is insane and in no way resembles anything I have argued thus far. You are simply putting words in my mouth at this point and I see no reason to continue the discussion.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 11:44p, 8/18/25
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
In terms of the bolded, your brain has been polluted by amoral notions of intersectionality and victimhood (probably with "anti-colonialism" thrown in). The fact that Israeli's have power doesn't make Hamas the victims.

It is wrong to hold the Israelis to a higher standard based on your view of "power" for many reasons, not the least of which it expresses the bigotry of low expectations. Do you truly find the Israeli "actions and polices" worse than Hamas'? If so, then you should say so. If not, then you're really just arguing that Israel should surrender because Hamas is vile and you excuse it. You wouldn't impost that obligation on the US (or probably any other country) - only Israel.

I note that you still have not suggested how Hamas can be removed and/or a lasting peace can be reached. You just want Israel to surrender and go back to 10/6 where Gaza eventually becomes a threat again.

This last part is insane and in no way resembles anything I have argued thus far. You are simply putting words in my mouth at this point and I see no reason to continue the discussion.

Quite funny from the guy who has been constructing strawman arguments for the past several days. And to be clear, I'm not putting words in your mouth. What I wrote is the logical extension (and consequence) of the criticisms you offer. You can't explain how Hamas is removed with the policies you advance.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to BearGoggles • 7:10a
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Israel can do what it wants. We don't have total control over their decisions. I think that:

1. "Removing Hamas from Gaza forever" is not an achievable military goal and is akin to the US trying to defeat all terrorism post-9/11. That's just not how it works.

2. If Israel wants to pursue this (IMO) impossible goal, the US does not need to keep giving them any help. Let them do it on their own.

This is now the third strawman you've constructed on this issue and it seems pretty clear it is not an accident. Removing Hamas from power is not the same thing as removing Hamas from Gaza forever.

How do you prevent Hamas from returning to power? They're not an organization led by one guy. Continued occupation?

How did the US/allies prevent the fascists from returning to power in Germany, Italy and Japan? They established governance systems and eventually governments where the fascists were not allowed. Germany still had Nazis in its society - but they were deprived of power.

Israel, the US, Egypt and particularly Qatar can defund and sideline Hamas if they want to, particularly now that Iran and Hezbollah have been sidelined. And if, over time, the Palestinians absolutely insist on having Hamas represent them, then they won't get a state and will suffer the consequences. They have agency.

This is exactly what is needed. No party can exist that calls for the elimination of Israel, killing of Jews, paying pensions to terrorists, etc. Those beliefs have to be illegal. Bad news for every political party in existence today but it's the only way if the Palestinians are to remain in greater Israel.
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sycasey
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In reply to BearGoggles • 7:58a
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
In terms of the bolded, your brain has been polluted by amoral notions of intersectionality and victimhood (probably with "anti-colonialism" thrown in). The fact that Israeli's have power doesn't make Hamas the victims.

It is wrong to hold the Israelis to a higher standard based on your view of "power" for many reasons, not the least of which it expresses the bigotry of low expectations. Do you truly find the Israeli "actions and polices" worse than Hamas'? If so, then you should say so. If not, then you're really just arguing that Israel should surrender because Hamas is vile and you excuse it. You wouldn't impost that obligation on the US (or probably any other country) - only Israel.

I note that you still have not suggested how Hamas can be removed and/or a lasting peace can be reached. You just want Israel to surrender and go back to 10/6 where Gaza eventually becomes a threat again.

This last part is insane and in no way resembles anything I have argued thus far. You are simply putting words in my mouth at this point and I see no reason to continue the discussion.

Quite funny from the guy who has been constructing strawman arguments for the past several days. And to be clear, I'm not putting words in your mouth. What I wrote is the logical extension (and consequence) of the criticisms you offer. You can't explain how Hamas is removed with the policies you advance.

Hamas is a nebulous organization based around an idea and can only be "removed" by demonstrating to the Palestinian population that there is a better way than violence and terrorism. If the oppression continues more people will just keep signing up. Still waiting for the rebuilding plan in Gaza.

Or, I guess, you could just remove the population entirely, but I don't think that's feasible or that it actually solves anything in the long term.

What you see as the "logical extension" is nothing of the sort. Just more of the usual emotional ranting that Israel's supporters go into when you start criticizing their favorite country's actions. Conflating the Palestinian civilian population with "Hamas," accusations of antisemitism, that kind of thing. I've seen it before.
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Anarchistbear
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 8:30a
tequila4kapp said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Israel can do what it wants. We don't have total control over their decisions. I think that:

1. "Removing Hamas from Gaza forever" is not an achievable military goal and is akin to the US trying to defeat all terrorism post-9/11. That's just not how it works.

2. If Israel wants to pursue this (IMO) impossible goal, the US does not need to keep giving them any help. Let them do it on their own.

This is now the third strawman you've constructed on this issue and it seems pretty clear it is not an accident. Removing Hamas from power is not the same thing as removing Hamas from Gaza forever.

How do you prevent Hamas from returning to power? They're not an organization led by one guy. Continued occupation?

How did the US/allies prevent the fascists from returning to power in Germany, Italy and Japan? They established governance systems and eventually governments where the fascists were not allowed. Germany still had Nazis in its society - but they were deprived of power.

Israel, the US, Egypt and particularly Qatar can defund and sideline Hamas if they want to, particularly now that Iran and Hezbollah have been sidelined. And if, over time, the Palestinians absolutely insist on having Hamas represent them, then they won't get a state and will suffer the consequences. They have agency.

This is exactly what is needed. No party can exist that calls for the elimination of Israel, killing of Jews, paying pensions to terrorists, etc. Those beliefs have to be illegal. Bad news for every political party in existence today but it's the only way if the Palestinians are to remain in greater Israel.


These things are fluid. The IRA was a terrorist organization until they got political power. The US deals with "terrorist " governments repeatedly- the Taliban, Syria. It's not our business- it's the Palestinians . If Israel wants to impose rules about what countries can exist let them do so without our money and arms.
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