OaktownBear said:

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The increase was never "mostly due" to Chicago and Baltimore.

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Conservatives really need to get off Chicago's back. When it comes to gun homicide rate, it's not even close to New Orleans or Detroit or St. Louis.

https://www.thetrace.org/2016/10/chicago-gun-violence-per-capita-rate/

Baltimore is high up there, but still not at #1.

The fixation on Chicago as the American city with a big crime problem is bizarre, given that the per-capita stats don't bear that out at all. It couldn't possibly be the focus because the last Democratic President was black and from Chicago, could it?

The GOP target Chicago because it's traditional Dem, a large African American population...and Obama. The reasons are transparent to me.

B.A. Bearacus said:

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oski003 said:

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B.A. Bearacus said:

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Golden One said:

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CT, there is no "best kind" of racism. All racism, subconscious and open, is bad and should be deplored. I condemn all types of racism.

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How about overt and presidential?

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/opinion/white-house/456523-donald-trumps-no-racist-as-past-acts-and-presidential-record-prove%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history

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For the sake of both of our remaining time on earth, let's just agree to disagree that we have a racist president. I acknowledge that you and all remaining Republicans on here will never believe that T is racist.

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When members of the Alt Right and the KKK are attracted to your political philosophy and your public statements then, in the words that Tommy Lee Jones' character in No Country for Old Men would use, "If tRump ain't a racist, he'll do till the racist gets here."

Another Bear said:

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The GOP target Chicago because it's traditional Dem, a large African American population...and Obama. The reasons are transparent to me.

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I mean . . . yeah.

The video shows an officer applying first aid to his partner. Most police carry trauma kits which include tourniquet, antiseptic, bandages...because medical personnel don't rush into firefights so you're on your own.
Nice try though.

sycasey said:

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Another Bear said:

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The GOP target Chicago because it's traditional Dem, a large African American population...and Obama. The reasons are transparent to me.

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I mean . . . yeah.

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I know you know. Really it's Obama. Trump hates that guy so much but he hates everyone.

Prior to the Democratic President elect taking office in 2021:



*The Orange spirochaete is a particularly difficult kill.

That is good to know. Appreciate that information but the fact still remains government sponsored police terrorism exists.

Yes and posting nonsense is going to help.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/illinois-cop-shot-unarmed-black-12-year-old-in-bed-during-botched-raid-lawsuit

Me sharing an incorrect tweet vs the actual wrong doings which one holds more weight?

Oh and I deleted that tweet but that whole situation in philly still smells fishy

Fair

That's just fccked up.

Smh

I don't get this one. Criminal? No. Stupid? Yes. Lack of training? Yes.
Should they go to jail? Probably not but it's hard to gather what the intent was.
Should they be fired? Probably.
At the very least they need about 20 days off without pay and mandatory training.
Racial component aside...
Why on earth does this seem like a good idea?
There's so many officer/suspect safety concerns...

Police officers likely did nothing wrong except use poor judgment by not anticipating the liberal backlash because of perceived racism.

This assumes two things:
1) No available police car was nearby to take the alleged criminal to the police station; and
2) They were not taking him very far.

GBear4Life said:

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I don't claim to know the intent of all those who cite Chicago's crime issues, but I would cite Chicago for it'shigh homicide rate (which rose considerably a couple years ago, mostly from firearm black-on-black homicide) and restrictive gun laws to attack the notion that black lives actually matter to people, and that gun restrictions automatically equals less homicides, given that considerable guns in these types of street homicides are illegally obtained.

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But you don't have to divine the intent of other people who cite Chicago as the primary city with gun-violence issues. You did it yourself.

So I guess we can ask you the question: Why did you name Chicago first even though it's 13th among major American cities for homicide rate? Where are you getting that Chicago was most responsible for an increase in homicide rates?

GBear4Life said:

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Politically, I suspect cities like Chicago, Baltimore, and New Orleans are attacked for both being high-crime cities AND being run by Democrats (to haphazardly attack the connection between Democrats = makes your community safer [with policies like gun restriction])

Giving Chicago 'a break' on the basis that a handful of other cities have higher violent crime rates illuminates this sincere lack of actual consideration for black lives, or victims of homicide generally. Chicago as well as other cities have a grave violent crime issue (5x the national average). Period, full stop.

There are of course numerous reasons for declining, rising, or stagnant violent crime rates, including cultural values and personal character. And NY, even under a Rep mayor, is a Democrat majority city that substantially reduced violent crime in a very short period of time. Urban areas with high population density are not destined to be inevitable war zones. NY did it with law enforcement. I'm sure that's the last thing most people want to hear.

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Yes, big cities in general have issue with violent crime. I suspect on some level this is simply a consequence of having large cities with lots of people clumped together in a small area, particularly in the poorer areas of those cities. People who want to cite "run by Democrats" as the reason for such violence IMO are ignoring a lot of other factors: almost all large cities vote Democratic, including those with high and low crime rates, and of course the laws that might impact the city are often set at the state level, at which there might be very different politics.

I show Chicago as #11. St. Louis and Baltimore are awful.

https://www.thetrace.org/2018/04/highest-murder-rates-us-cities-list/

oski003 said:

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I show Chicago as #11. St. Louis and Baltimore are awful.

https://www.thetrace.org/2018/04/highest-murder-rates-us-cities-list/

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I think I had an older article, so the rankings are different. But anyway, Chicago is still not close to being the #1 offender (St. Louis has actually been the murder capital of America for quite some time now), yet is routinely cited in conservative media as the city with the big gun violence problem in America.

sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

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I show Chicago as #11. St. Louis and Baltimore are awful.

https://www.thetrace.org/2018/04/highest-murder-rates-us-cities-list/

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I think I had an older article, so the rankings are different. But anyway, Chicago is still not close to being the #1 offender (St. Louis has actually been the murder capital of America for quite some time now), yet is routinely cited in conservative media as the city with the big gun violence problem in America.

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So this discussion has diverted to ranking? Must be comforting to victims of violence that their city is not #1. But in all seriousness, what is the cause of violence against minorities often inflicted by other minorities in these inner cities? What are your honest thoughts on what is causing so much violence in the inner cities?

And, please, let us not make this a discussion on race since the color of one's skin does not determine one's character.

It can't just be poverty. There are plenty of poor rural cities or poor countries where there is a greater sense of contentment and community. Single parenthood and lack of proper guidance? Drugs? Gun laws? How many of us actually live in these inner city communities? If not, why not?

oski003 said:

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Police officers likely did nothing wrong except use poor judgment by not anticipating the liberal backlash because of perceived racism.

This assumes two things:
1) No available police car was nearby to take the alleged criminal to the police station; and
2) They were not taking him very far.

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Still degrading and idiotic actions by public servants. Hold everyone accountable and treat everyone with at least a modicum of dignity. That goes for people on both sides.

calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

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I show Chicago as #11. St. Louis and Baltimore are awful.

https://www.thetrace.org/2018/04/highest-murder-rates-us-cities-list/

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I think I had an older article, so the rankings are different. But anyway, Chicago is still not close to being the #1 offender (St. Louis has actually been the murder capital of America for quite some time now), yet is routinely cited in conservative media as the city with the big gun violence problem in America.

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So this discussion has diverted to ranking? Must be comforting to victims of violence that their city is not #1. But in all seriousness, what is the cause of violence against minorities often inflicted by other minorities in these inner cities? What are your honest thoughts on what is causing so much violence in the inner cities?

And, please, let us not make this a discussion on race since the color of one's skin does not determine one's character.

It can't just be poverty. There are plenty of poor rural cities or poor countries where there is a greater sense of contentment and community. Single parenthood and lack of proper guidance? Drugs? Gun laws? How many of us actually live in these inner city communities? If not, why not?

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Yes, I think the problem is mostly guns. At least in terms of things that could be impacted by public policy.

If there are larger cultural issues they are probably too complicated and thorny for any government policy to resolve. But we can start by getting guns off the streets.

sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

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I show Chicago as #11. St. Louis and Baltimore are awful.

https://www.thetrace.org/2018/04/highest-murder-rates-us-cities-list/

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I think I had an older article, so the rankings are different. But anyway, Chicago is still not close to being the #1 offender (St. Louis has actually been the murder capital of America for quite some time now), yet is routinely cited in conservative media as the city with the big gun violence problem in America.

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So this discussion has diverted to ranking? Must be comforting to victims of violence that their city is not #1. But in all seriousness, what is the cause of violence against minorities often inflicted by other minorities in these inner cities? What are your honest thoughts on what is causing so much violence in the inner cities?

And, please, let us not make this a discussion on race since the color of one's skin does not determine one's character.

It can't just be poverty. There are plenty of poor rural cities or poor countries where there is a greater sense of contentment and community. Single parenthood and lack of proper guidance? Drugs? Gun laws? How many of us actually live in these inner city communities? If not, why not?

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Yes, I think the problem is mostly guns. At least in terms of things that could be impacted by public policy.

If there are larger cultural issues they are probably too complicated and thorny for any government policy to resolve. But we can start by getting guns off the streets.

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I don't think the problem is guns - it's what necessitates guns which are drugs. The drug trade is worth a $100 billion dollars. That kind of money is worth fighting over and killing over.

The idea that this is a strict urban phenomenon is also wrong. Violent crime in rural areas is increasing at much faster rates than urban areas. The violent crime in rural areas is now above the national average and the highest it's been in 10 years. Why? Meth.

Another marker is overdoses which are at historic highs. People who are high commit violent crimes and petty crime to feed their habit.

In 2017, the states with the highest rates of death due to drug overdose were West Virginia (57.8 per 100,000), Ohio (46.3 per 100,000), Pennsylvania (44.3 per 100,000), the District of Columbia (44.0 per 100,000), and Kentucky (37.2 per 100,000).

The root causes of a lot of this is the same- poverty, despair, drug addiction and a breakdown of community . It's not a race issue either. It's an American problem.

California adopts country's strictest law to curb police killings

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/19/california-use-of-force-law-stephon-clark?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

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I show Chicago as #11. St. Louis and Baltimore are awful.

https://www.thetrace.org/2018/04/highest-murder-rates-us-cities-list/

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I think I had an older article, so the rankings are different. But anyway, Chicago is still not close to being the #1 offender (St. Louis has actually been the murder capital of America for quite some time now), yet is routinely cited in conservative media as the city with the big gun violence problem in America.

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So this discussion has diverted to ranking? Must be comforting to victims of violence that their city is not #1. But in all seriousness, what is the cause of violence against minorities often inflicted by other minorities in these inner cities? What are your honest thoughts on what is causing so much violence in the inner cities?

And, please, let us not make this a discussion on race since the color of one's skin does not determine one's character.

It can't just be poverty. There are plenty of poor rural cities or poor countries where there is a greater sense of contentment and community. Single parenthood and lack of proper guidance? Drugs? Gun laws? How many of us actually live in these inner city communities? If not, why not?

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Yes, I think the problem is mostly guns. At least in terms of things that could be impacted by public policy.

If there are larger cultural issues they are probably too complicated and thorny for any government policy to resolve. But we can start by getting guns off the streets.

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I would assume most of the guns used in inner city violence were not acquired legally. All for eliminating guns, especially since I have never had the slightest desire to own a gun or be around people with guns. However, not sure that this will the solution needed to provide a sense of security to those living in the urban areas.

calbear93 said:

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I would assume most of the guns used in inner city violence were not acquired legally.

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Probably true, in that most large cities have passed their own laws placing limits on gun ownership. But loose gun laws in nearby areas (for example, Indiana is located right next to Chicago) mean that it's still relatively easy to get guns into those cities. Stricter controls are needed everywhere.

Question: does anyone have proof of how guns get into the African American community?

going4roses said:

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Question: does anyone have proof of how guns get into the African American community?

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From 2 years ago:

Oakland police seize 796 firearms in 2016

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/03/10/oakland-police-seize-796-firearms-in-2016/amp/

bearister said:

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California adopts country's strictest law to curb police killings

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/19/california-use-of-force-law-stephon-clark?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

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So who gets to decide the standard of reasonableness? The law was "necessary" but even "reasonable" is blurry. I can sit back on my couch and declare what is reasonable for me in a given incident. The problem is everyone wants police officers to follow a flow chart of clearly defined force escalation standards and it's just not practical. We can slow motion a 5 second incident in which a suspect goes from compliant to dead and say the officer should've done A, B, C....the reality is most of these incidents are volatile and dynamic.

The reasonable standard should needs to include years of experience, height/weight, age, sex, force training, prior force incidents, prior complaints, proper planning to the incident (assuming this is a call for service, the call should be properly coordinated between units with elements designated with assignments prior to deploying), tactical approach, communication, established chain of command during the incident. Should force be used, the officer should be able to reasonably explain the levels utilized and conditions for doing so or the elimination of certain tools/tactics based on factors observed. Documentation of the incident needs to be complete and thorough.

A 5 second incident can take days to process and document. We can't allow a standard of reasonableness to be set by people who want officers to be fool proof robots. The reality is there are thousands of ways to properly handle each incident and double that number of how to screw it up. My reasonable standard needs to be open to listen and understand someone else's reasoning.

Bear70 said:

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bearister said:

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California adopts country's strictest law to curb police killings

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/19/california-use-of-force-law-stephon-clark?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

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So who gets to decide the standard of reasonableness? ....

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...ultimately a jury will decide in the civil or criminal case...and they will make that call based on their sense of right and wrong and not based on what is in a field manual or jury instruction.

I suppose. Proactive police is dead in California anyway. They'll sit around waiting for 911 calls like an ambulance. Proactive enforcement keeps crime down and reduces the likelihood of being a crime victim but it's risky for police because they're stopping people at a higher rate. The hardest of all things to document is a proactive enforcement stop and it's also the most likely to be seen as unreasonable in the eyes of a jury.

This Information was publicly released because of sb1421 and I think a few depts either haven't complied or records mysteriously disappeared.

Just adding to the discussion

https://www.khou.com/amp/article/news/local/mounted-patrol-officers-learned-rope-technique-used-on-donald-neely-during-training/285-45059d29-5267-428d-bda4-2a3a326314bd?__twitter_impression=true