Reopen the economy?

88,762 Views | 756 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Unit2Sucks
bearister
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Ten U.S. states developing 'reopening' plans account for 38% of U.S. economy - Reuters


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-states/ten-u-s-states-developing-reopening-plans-account-for-38-of-u-s-economy-idUSKCN21W1D6?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiospm&stream=top


Can The Ten secede from the Union, wall themselves off, and let the sh@ithole states that are full of Deplorables crater themselves via Social Darwinism and by following tRump and the rules that govern the Alternate Fact Universe within which they reside?





New dance: The Gavin



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wifeisafurd
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GBear4Life said:

okaydo said:



Newsom and the other (Democratic) governors are sending a message that Trump doesn't decide when the economy reopens. It's their decision.

Which was the topic of today's press briefing.

And yet Trump still thinks he has ultimate power.

And so what will happen is Trump will order the economy opened. Newsom and his fellow Dem governors won't comply. Trump will punish those states in some way. Newsom & Co. will sue the federal government. And the U.S. Supreme Court will vote 5-4 in favor of Trump, saying 10th amendment doesn't apply.
Can the LWNJs make up their minds?

First it's DTs fault for not wielding his power of states to force them to SIP (a power he doesn't have). When called out on this, many LWNJs back pedaled with the "he should be strongly encouraging states to SIP". Now it's DTs fault if he wields the power he doesn't have instead of yielding to states on SIP.
FWIW, Newsom announced today what would be a phased in opening, which could start in two weeks (which seems awful fast). He went out of the way to say they are working with Trump and the CDC.

That all of a sudden Trump should want to say something like it is a federal decision is ironic when he has let the state's make decisions so far. My gut tells me if California's reopening works, Trump will take credit for his coordinating with Newsom and if not, use his Federal powers to reinforce tight controls.

As for federal vs. state power, Federal law clearly allows the federal government to impose quarantines in most circumstances and limit or allow travel between states. That is a power expressly generated from the Constitutional powers(e.g., the interstate commence clause) and also indirectly from the Supremacy clause though various emergency powers acts. One interesting issue is that these emergency powers acts relate to acts of God and weather, and do not expressly state pandemics as a basis for invoking the emergency powers acts. I'm not sure the courts will care, and will consider COVID an emergency that falls under emergency declarations. One reason is if Trump doesn't have the power, it all means he also doesn't have the power to provide emergency aide, a result I just don't see the federal courts allowing).

Just so we are clear, that is not what Trump said. Instead, what he said "When somebody's president of the United States, the authority is total. And that's the way it's got to to be. It's total. It's total. And the governors know that." This is utter and complete garbage.

There is no authority that the that one branch of the federal government does not have "total" power either over the other branches of government or state and local power, and in fact the authority is just the opposite. It is also odd for a Republican President to assert same, as the Republicans tend to be more in favor of state rights; although, that paradigm may be changing with activist Democratic governors and Trump in the White House.

As a practical matter. Assuming Trump even has authority is this area, neither Trump nor the CDC is set-up to make broad decisions, when relaxing limitations will be local decisions, based on local conditions on the ground, with officials that have local data. .

bearister
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How embarrassing and disgraceful it is that California and a few other states came up with a Plan while the Feds are still cowering in the Madman's presence. Between tRump's epic meltdown yesterday and California's Plan today, it is pretty much the day the tRump Myth died and the danger of following the false prophet became undeniable...except for the mentally impaired. For the first time I think even Russian interference can't win it for him. The Fed Plan has to be either a regurgitation of ours (like Melania's Michelle Obama speech) or an utter embarrassment because it was drafted by the F Troop.

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GBear4Life
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bearister said:

How embarrassing and disgraceful it is that California and a few other states came up with a Plan while the Feds are still cowering in the Madman's presence.
You can't make up your mind either. You want him to come up with a plan he can't enforce on states, nor do they have to listen. If Trump's rhetoric turns to directing states what to do, he will surely then be a dictator. This stuff is predictable.
bearister
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....well, he needs a plan for the states, citizenry, and governors that look to him for leadership....and you are correct, California is not among that group.
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BearlyCareAnymore
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wifeisafurd said:

GBear4Life said:

okaydo said:



Newsom and the other (Democratic) governors are sending a message that Trump doesn't decide when the economy reopens. It's their decision.

Which was the topic of today's press briefing.

And yet Trump still thinks he has ultimate power.

And so what will happen is Trump will order the economy opened. Newsom and his fellow Dem governors won't comply. Trump will punish those states in some way. Newsom & Co. will sue the federal government. And the U.S. Supreme Court will vote 5-4 in favor of Trump, saying 10th amendment doesn't apply.
Can the LWNJs make up their minds?

First it's DTs fault for not wielding his power of states to force them to SIP (a power he doesn't have). When called out on this, many LWNJs back pedaled with the "he should be strongly encouraging states to SIP". Now it's DTs fault if he wields the power he doesn't have instead of yielding to states on SIP.
FWIW, Newsom announced today what would be a phased in opening, which could start in two weeks (which seems awful fast). He went out of the way to say they are working with Trump and the CDC.

That all of a sudden Trump should want to say something like it is a federal decision is ironic when he has let the state's make decisions so far. My gut tells me if California's reopening works, Trump will take credit for his coordinating with Newsom and if not, use his Federal powers to reinforce tight controls.

As for federal vs. state power, Federal law clearly allows the federal government to impose quarantines in most circumstances and limit or allow travel between states. That is a power expressly generated from the Constitutional powers(e.g., the interstate commence clause) and also indirectly from the Supremacy clause though various emergency powers acts. One interesting issue is that these emergency powers acts relate to acts of God and weather, and do not expressly state pandemics as a basis for invoking the emergency powers acts. I'm not sure the courts will care, and will consider COVID an emergency that falls under emergency declarations. One reason is if Trump doesn't have the power, it all means he also doesn't have the power to provide emergency aide, a result I just don't see the federal courts allowing).

Just so we are clear, that is not what Trump said. Instead, what he said "When somebody's president of the United States, the authority is total. And that's the way it's got to to be. It's total. It's total. And the governors know that." This is utter and complete garbage.

There is no authority that the that one branch of the federal government does not have "total" power either over the other branches of government or state and local power, and in fact the authority is just the opposite. It is also odd for a Republican President to assert same, as the Republicans tend to be more in favor of state rights; although, that paradigm may be changing with activist Democratic governors and Trump in the White House.

As a practical matter. Assuming Trump even has authority is this area, neither Trump nor the CDC is set-up to make broad decisions, when relaxing limitations will be local decisions, based on local conditions on the ground, with officials that have local data. .


I don't think Republicans tend to be more in favor of "state's rights". Both parties favor state's rights in different circumstances. Generally, center left to left politicians have a toxic reaction to the TERM "state's rights" because unfortunately that term got all tied up with defending slavery and then segregation, and to some extent pro-Life arguments. But when states want to do things like say, legalize marijuana or regulate guns, suddenly the parties switch points of view on state's rights even if the term doesn't enter the argument.
sp4149
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GBear4Life said:

dimitrig said:



. That is massive. When people hear "reopening the economy" are they thinking "a return to normal" or "a START of a long, slow return to normal?"
I think you're basically right. The economy will never be "back to normal" fully until there is a vaccine that is accessible.

Businesses will open up but there will be far less demand to use them for many many months at least. Most likely it will grow incrementally, slowly, in so far as the media narrative on the virus being relatively in check.

Some of these lost jobs aren't coming back -- at least anytime soon, certainly not just because the economy is opened up. I think more jobs will be converted to remote permanently as employers realize these people don't need to be in the office everyday.
I'll throw in the "O" word into the discussion of our economy. OUTSOURCING

Some of our economy is effected because the countries we have used for outsourcing are part of this pandemic problem.

If You can work effectively from home, why go to work at an office? Just not going to work not only saves a couple of hours of 'YOUR' time for you to use it also save several thousand dollars of transportation expense. This will have two results, neither good for the economy. 1. A lot more workers will prefer to work from home, resulting in a glut of office space and hard times for the service industries in the office complexes, gas consumption will fall resulting in a falling price for oil and higher priced US oil production will fall as importing low priced oil will fill the demand. 2. If employees can effectively work from home, more jobs can be outsourced, most likely to overseas locations, as long as COVID-19 cannot be transmitted by the Internet.
Cost accountants will have more data than ever before, showing which jobs can be outsourced.

Many years ago,while at Cal I saw a film based on a T. Williams story starring Natalie Wood that basically wound around efficiency experts doing what now would be outsourcing.
GBear4Life
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Newsome outlines plan to re open economy. Man he's probably going to get blasted by the same people who had a hard time with this concept recently...unless there's a double standard or something.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Governor-Gavin-Newsom-California-reopening-15200128.php
Big C
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bearister said:

How embarrassing and disgraceful it is that California and a few other states came up with a Plan while the Feds are still cowering in the Madman's presence. Between tRump's epic meltdown yesterday and California's Plan today, it is pretty much the day the tRump Myth died and the danger of following the false prophet became undeniable...except for the mentally impaired. For the first time I think even Russian interference can't win it for him. The Fed Plan has to be either a regurgitation of ours (like Melania's Michelle Obama speech) or an utter embarrassment because it was drafted by the F Troop.



* We hit an iceberg? I don't take any responsibility at all.

* People in the water from another ship? Leave 'em there! I don't want to boost our numbers.

* I just talked to my iceberg experts. They all asked me how I know so much about icebergs!

* Somebody's thinking about getting in a lifeboat? I'll decide that. I'm the Captain and I have total authority. It's total.
golden sloth
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GBear4Life said:

Newsome outlines plan to re open economy. Man he's probably going to get blasted by the same people who had a hard time with this concept recently...unless there's a double standard or something.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Governor-Gavin-Newsom-California-reopening-15200128.php


Read the article and I am underwhelmed. It's a big nothing burger, no details, no guidelines for what would open and what would not or when.
BearlyCareAnymore
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sp4149 said:

GBear4Life said:

dimitrig said:



. That is massive. When people hear "reopening the economy" are they thinking "a return to normal" or "a START of a long, slow return to normal?"
I think you're basically right. The economy will never be "back to normal" fully until there is a vaccine that is accessible.

Businesses will open up but there will be far less demand to use them for many many months at least. Most likely it will grow incrementally, slowly, in so far as the media narrative on the virus being relatively in check.

Some of these lost jobs aren't coming back -- at least anytime soon, certainly not just because the economy is opened up. I think more jobs will be converted to remote permanently as employers realize these people don't need to be in the office everyday.
I'll throw in the "O" word into the discussion of our economy. OUTSOURCING

Some of our economy is effected because the countries we have used for outsourcing are part of this pandemic problem.

If You can work effectively from home, why go to work at an office? Just not going to work not only saves a couple of hours of 'YOUR' time for you to use it also save several thousand dollars of transportation expense. This will have two results, neither good for the economy. 1. A lot more workers will prefer to work from home, resulting in a glut of office space and hard times for the service industries in the office complexes, gas consumption will fall resulting in a falling price for oil and higher priced US oil production will fall as importing low priced oil will fill the demand. 2. If employees can effectively work from home, more jobs can be outsourced, most likely to overseas locations, as long as COVID-19 cannot be transmitted by the Internet.
Cost accountants will have more data than ever before, showing which jobs can be outsourced.

Many years ago,while at Cal I saw a film based on a T. Williams story starring Natalie Wood that basically wound around efficiency experts doing what now would be outsourcing.
Working in an industry that already had a ton of telecommuting, and also in an industry that facilitates both outsourcing and telecommuting, I strongly disagree with your characterization of how transitioning to people working from home will impact the economy. Any transition has positives and negatives. There are lots of positives to the economy to telecommuting.

1. Many industries have had an antiquated view of telecommuting because they think when people telecommute they goof off and when they are in the office they don't. Actually, on average it is the opposite. Workers are more productive at home without coworkers yapping at them and they can use time normally spent commuting to free up time to take care of personal issues so they don't have to take long lunches, etc. to do so. It is easier to work across time zones because a 7:00 am call entails getting up at 6:50 instead of 5:00.

2. If jobs can be outsourced, companies already know that. Telecommuting makes keeping jobs here more attractive to the company because they don't need to have the cost of maintaining an office. There was a lot of fear of outsourcing 15-20 years ago. Justifiably so. Many companies thought it was a great way to cut costs. My company at the time made a lot of money selling products helping them move operations overseas. 5 years later my company made a lot of money selling products helping them move back. Things like customer service operations generally do not work well being outsourced. Companies found that "local" knowledge is an important thing. We all had the experience of getting a customer agent in India and it being totally unsatisfactory. Much of that was stopped years ago because customers won't put up with crappy customer service - it is actually a major differentiator. Your problem is not going to be outsourcing. It is going to be AI.

3. In the long run, reducing traffic and oil consumption is a good thing. Yes it has short term economic consequences.

4. Yes, I expect the commercial real estate market will feel pain as they adjust to a new world. But every dollar they don't get from a company is a dollar the company saved. And rents going down means more opportunities for others.

5. The ability to telecommute enables workers to connect from wherever they want to be. People will not have to move to urban centers to maintain a good job. Wealth that is now massively clustered on a geographic basis can be spread out. People who want to live in small towns can and the service industry can follow them.

Telecommuting enables more efficient use of time, space and resources (houses and apartments serving dual role as living and work space. It enables people to get off the roads and will lighten traffic so those still on the roads are less often in bumper to bumper traffic causing air pollution. People have more leisure time and will want to fill it with leisure pursuits. Using resources more efficiently, spreading out the population and the money, and reducing congestion and pollution are game changers in the economy. It is a really good thing long term.

This was all coming. It will just come faster now. It is nothing new. In the 50's downtowns were anchored by department stores. Then malls came and the department stores moved away. Restaurants and local businesses filled the void. Then malls started a long steady decline. Now brick and mortar stores are going away. It's okay. I'd look at it as our economy is wasting a lot of money on gas, transportation, and real estate and now that money can be put to use that is better purposed for today's society.
BearlyCareAnymore
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golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

Newsome outlines plan to re open economy. Man he's probably going to get blasted by the same people who had a hard time with this concept recently...unless there's a double standard or something.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Governor-Gavin-Newsom-California-reopening-15200128.php


Read the article and I am underwhelmed. It's a big nothing burger, no details, no guidelines for what would open and what would not or when.
I watched the news conference. He never said things were opening in two weeks. He said in two weeks we'll have a timeline. The news conference was not billed as, nor was it, the unveiling of a plan. He stated it was making public the factors that go into the determining the plan that have been discussed privately to be transparent. Basically, it was describing the 6 factors they feel they need solid answers on before we can open things up and how they are working through that. If you were looking for a plan, yes, this was not it.
GBear4Life
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golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

Newsome outlines plan to re open economy. Man he's probably going to get blasted by the same people who had a hard time with this concept recently...unless there's a double standard or something.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Governor-Gavin-Newsom-California-reopening-15200128.php


Read the article and I am underwhelmed. It's a big nothing burger, no details, no guidelines for what would open and what would not or when.
Of course, there's too many unknowns to have a detailed plan worth considering weeks from now. It's prudent to start outlining what that might look like. That's the point.
kelly09
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OaktownBear said:

golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

Newsome outlines plan to re open economy. Man he's probably going to get blasted by the same people who had a hard time with this concept recently...unless there's a double standard or something.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Governor-Gavin-Newsom-California-reopening-15200128.php


Read the article and I am underwhelmed. It's a big nothing burger, no details, no guidelines for what would open and what would not or when.
I watched the news conference. He never said things were opening in two weeks. He said in two weeks we'll have a timeline. The news conference was not billed as, nor was it, the unveiling of a plan. He stated it was making public the factors that go into the determining the plan that have been discussed privately to be transparent. Basically, it was describing the 6 factors they feel they need solid answers on before we can open things up and how they are working through that. If you were looking for a plan, yes, this was not it.
n March 12, Governor DeWine of Ohio, flanked by his state health director, told the 11 million residents of Ohio that based on models he knew that 100,000 "had" active cases of the disease. That was a caseload that his experts further warned would double every six days. In other words, at the then roughly 2 percent lethality rate of the known actively infectedhis medical team all but frightened the state with the certainty that in 24 days there could be 1.6 million infected Ohioans and an assumed 40,000 dead.

In fact, about a week ago, on April 6, there were fewer than 5,000 known cases and less than 200 Ohioans who had succumbed to COVID-19. Even with far more unknown cases than known and the efficacy of slowing viral transmission via mass sheltering, the data was not just flawed but perhaps even preposterous. State officials could have offered some official explanations for their misinformation other than the subtext that such fright was medicinal in persuading a public to do something they supposed the public did not know was good for it to do.
When California Governor Gavin Newsom warned that 25.5 million Californians "will" get the virus in the eight weeks following March 18, albeit without his shelter-in-place orders, he was also essentially stating that, at a then 2.6 percent lethality rate for Californians known to have the active virus, about 1 million would die. As I write, 24 days out from his prediction and nearing the half-way point to Doomsday, about 23,000 Californians have tested positive, and either are fighting the disease or have recovered. Since late January, about 650 of 40 million Californians have died from the disease, in a state where well over 700 people die from some cause every day.
If 10 times that number of known positive tests are now actively infected, we legitimately could assume at least 222,000 residents are now active or past carriers. Those who advised Newsom to shut down the world's sixth-largest economy, including universities like Cal Tech, UC Berkeley, and Stanford, Silicon Valley, and the commerce and livelihoods of 40 million residents, apparently did not factor into their models some possible collective immunity among thousands of Californians who, for months, were on the front lines of arriving flights from China.
Nor did modelers seem to factor in the ability of people to social distance even before the shutdown was ordered, or the fact that a virus that does not kill 95.5 percent of those who are infected, but not frontline health workers or over 60 years old, may be deemed by the public manageable in a way that does not require having multigenerational small businesses ruined, or careers destroyed, or retirement savings accounts wrecked, or key appointments with doctors postponed or canceled.
Repeating Past Mistakes
golden sloth
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kelly09 said:

OaktownBear said:

golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

Newsome outlines plan to re open economy. Man he's probably going to get blasted by the same people who had a hard time with this concept recently...unless there's a double standard or something.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Governor-Gavin-Newsom-California-reopening-15200128.php


Read the article and I am underwhelmed. It's a big nothing burger, no details, no guidelines for what would open and what would not or when.
I watched the news conference. He never said things were opening in two weeks. He said in two weeks we'll have a timeline. The news conference was not billed as, nor was it, the unveiling of a plan. He stated it was making public the factors that go into the determining the plan that have been discussed privately to be transparent. Basically, it was describing the 6 factors they feel they need solid answers on before we can open things up and how they are working through that. If you were looking for a plan, yes, this was not it.
n March 12, Governor DeWine of Ohio, flanked by his state health director, told the 11 million residents of Ohio that based on models he knew that 100,000 "had" active cases of the disease. That was a caseload that his experts further warned would double every six days. In other words, at the then roughly 2 percent lethality rate of the known actively infectedhis medical team all but frightened the state with the certainty that in 24 days there could be 1.6 million infected Ohioans and an assumed 40,000 dead.

In fact, about a week ago, on April 6, there were fewer than 5,000 known cases and less than 200 Ohioans who had succumbed to COVID-19. Even with far more unknown cases than known and the efficacy of slowing viral transmission via mass sheltering, the data was not just flawed but perhaps even preposterous. State officials could have offered some official explanations for their misinformation other than the subtext that such fright was medicinal in persuading a public to do something they supposed the public did not know was good for it to do.
When California Governor Gavin Newsom warned that 25.5 million Californians "will" get the virus in the eight weeks following March 18, albeit without his shelter-in-place orders, he was also essentially stating that, at a then 2.6 percent lethality rate for Californians known to have the active virus, about 1 million would die. As I write, 24 days out from his prediction and nearing the half-way point to Doomsday, about 23,000 Californians have tested positive, and either are fighting the disease or have recovered. Since late January, about 650 of 40 million Californians have died from the disease, in a state where well over 700 people die from some cause every day.
If 10 times that number of known positive tests are now actively infected, we legitimately could assume at least 222,000 residents are now active or past carriers. Those who advised Newsom to shut down the world's sixth-largest economy, including universities like Cal Tech, UC Berkeley, and Stanford, Silicon Valley, and the commerce and livelihoods of 40 million residents, apparently did not factor into their models some possible collective immunity among thousands of Californians who, for months, were on the front lines of arriving flights from China.
Nor did modelers seem to factor in the ability of people to social distance even before the shutdown was ordered, or the fact that a virus that does not kill 95.5 percent of those who are infected, but not frontline health workers or over 60 years old, may be deemed by the public manageable in a way that does not require having multigenerational small businesses ruined, or careers destroyed, or retirement savings accounts wrecked, or key appointments with doctors postponed or canceled.
Repeating Past Mistakes


I dont really understand your point. Those models were based on the assumption that we collectively do nothing. We took action, specifically to have the modeling forecasts not actually happen and be wrong.
kelly09
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golden sloth said:

kelly09 said:

OaktownBear said:

golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

Newsome outlines plan to re open economy. Man he's probably going to get blasted by the same people who had a hard time with this concept recently...unless there's a double standard or something.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Governor-Gavin-Newsom-California-reopening-15200128.php


Read the article and I am underwhelmed. It's a big nothing burger, no details, no guidelines for what would open and what would not or when.
I watched the news conference. He never said things were opening in two weeks. He said in two weeks we'll have a timeline. The news conference was not billed as, nor was it, the unveiling of a plan. He stated it was making public the factors that go into the determining the plan that have been discussed privately to be transparent. Basically, it was describing the 6 factors they feel they need solid answers on before we can open things up and how they are working through that. If you were looking for a plan, yes, this was not it.
n March 12, Governor DeWine of Ohio, flanked by his state health director, told the 11 million residents of Ohio that based on models he knew that 100,000 "had" active cases of the disease. That was a caseload that his experts further warned would double every six days. In other words, at the then roughly 2 percent lethality rate of the known actively infectedhis medical team all but frightened the state with the certainty that in 24 days there could be 1.6 million infected Ohioans and an assumed 40,000 dead.

In fact, about a week ago, on April 6, there were fewer than 5,000 known cases and less than 200 Ohioans who had succumbed to COVID-19. Even with far more unknown cases than known and the efficacy of slowing viral transmission via mass sheltering, the data was not just flawed but perhaps even preposterous. State officials could have offered some official explanations for their misinformation other than the subtext that such fright was medicinal in persuading a public to do something they supposed the public did not know was good for it to do.
When California Governor Gavin Newsom warned that 25.5 million Californians "will" get the virus in the eight weeks following March 18, albeit without his shelter-in-place orders, he was also essentially stating that, at a then 2.6 percent lethality rate for Californians known to have the active virus, about 1 million would die. As I write, 24 days out from his prediction and nearing the half-way point to Doomsday, about 23,000 Californians have tested positive, and either are fighting the disease or have recovered. Since late January, about 650 of 40 million Californians have died from the disease, in a state where well over 700 people die from some cause every day.
If 10 times that number of known positive tests are now actively infected, we legitimately could assume at least 222,000 residents are now active or past carriers. Those who advised Newsom to shut down the world's sixth-largest economy, including universities like Cal Tech, UC Berkeley, and Stanford, Silicon Valley, and the commerce and livelihoods of 40 million residents, apparently did not factor into their models some possible collective immunity among thousands of Californians who, for months, were on the front lines of arriving flights from China.
Nor did modelers seem to factor in the ability of people to social distance even before the shutdown was ordered, or the fact that a virus that does not kill 95.5 percent of those who are infected, but not frontline health workers or over 60 years old, may be deemed by the public manageable in a way that does not require having multigenerational small businesses ruined, or careers destroyed, or retirement savings accounts wrecked, or key appointments with doctors postponed or canceled.
Repeating Past Mistakes


I dont really understand your point. Those models were based on the assumption that we collectively do nothing. We took action, specifically to have the modeling forecasts not actually happen and be wrong.
The action that was taken saved 2 million lives in California? BS!
BearlyCareAnymore
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golden sloth said:

kelly09 said:

OaktownBear said:

golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

Newsome outlines plan to re open economy. Man he's probably going to get blasted by the same people who had a hard time with this concept recently...unless there's a double standard or something.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Governor-Gavin-Newsom-California-reopening-15200128.php


Read the article and I am underwhelmed. It's a big nothing burger, no details, no guidelines for what would open and what would not or when.
I watched the news conference. He never said things were opening in two weeks. He said in two weeks we'll have a timeline. The news conference was not billed as, nor was it, the unveiling of a plan. He stated it was making public the factors that go into the determining the plan that have been discussed privately to be transparent. Basically, it was describing the 6 factors they feel they need solid answers on before we can open things up and how they are working through that. If you were looking for a plan, yes, this was not it.
n March 12, Governor DeWine of Ohio, flanked by his state health director, told the 11 million residents of Ohio that based on models he knew that 100,000 "had" active cases of the disease. That was a caseload that his experts further warned would double every six days. In other words, at the then roughly 2 percent lethality rate of the known actively infectedhis medical team all but frightened the state with the certainty that in 24 days there could be 1.6 million infected Ohioans and an assumed 40,000 dead.

In fact, about a week ago, on April 6, there were fewer than 5,000 known cases and less than 200 Ohioans who had succumbed to COVID-19. Even with far more unknown cases than known and the efficacy of slowing viral transmission via mass sheltering, the data was not just flawed but perhaps even preposterous. State officials could have offered some official explanations for their misinformation other than the subtext that such fright was medicinal in persuading a public to do something they supposed the public did not know was good for it to do.
When California Governor Gavin Newsom warned that 25.5 million Californians "will" get the virus in the eight weeks following March 18, albeit without his shelter-in-place orders, he was also essentially stating that, at a then 2.6 percent lethality rate for Californians known to have the active virus, about 1 million would die. As I write, 24 days out from his prediction and nearing the half-way point to Doomsday, about 23,000 Californians have tested positive, and either are fighting the disease or have recovered. Since late January, about 650 of 40 million Californians have died from the disease, in a state where well over 700 people die from some cause every day.
If 10 times that number of known positive tests are now actively infected, we legitimately could assume at least 222,000 residents are now active or past carriers. Those who advised Newsom to shut down the world's sixth-largest economy, including universities like Cal Tech, UC Berkeley, and Stanford, Silicon Valley, and the commerce and livelihoods of 40 million residents, apparently did not factor into their models some possible collective immunity among thousands of Californians who, for months, were on the front lines of arriving flights from China.
Nor did modelers seem to factor in the ability of people to social distance even before the shutdown was ordered, or the fact that a virus that does not kill 95.5 percent of those who are infected, but not frontline health workers or over 60 years old, may be deemed by the public manageable in a way that does not require having multigenerational small businesses ruined, or careers destroyed, or retirement savings accounts wrecked, or key appointments with doctors postponed or canceled.
Repeating Past Mistakes


I dont really understand your point. Those models were based on the assumption that we collectively do nothing. We took action, specifically to have the modeling forecasts not actually happen and be wrong.


There is no point addressing him. He has coronavirus derangement syndrome.
Anarchistbear
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kelly09 said:

OaktownBear said:

golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

Newsome outlines plan to re open economy. Man he's probably going to get blasted by the same people who had a hard time with this concept recently...unless there's a double standard or something.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Governor-Gavin-Newsom-California-reopening-15200128.php


Read the article and I am underwhelmed. It's a big nothing burger, no details, no guidelines for what would open and what would not or when.
I watched the news conference. He never said things were opening in two weeks. He said in two weeks we'll have a timeline. The news conference was not billed as, nor was it, the unveiling of a plan. He stated it was making public the factors that go into the determining the plan that have been discussed privately to be transparent. Basically, it was describing the 6 factors they feel they need solid answers on before we can open things up and how they are working through that. If you were looking for a plan, yes, this was not it.
n March 12, Governor DeWine of Ohio, flanked by his state health director, told the 11 million residents of Ohio that based on models he knew that 100,000 "had" active cases of the disease. That was a caseload that his experts further warned would double every six days. In other words, at the then roughly 2 percent lethality rate of the known actively infectedhis medical team all but frightened the state with the certainty that in 24 days there could be 1.6 million infected Ohioans and an assumed 40,000 dead.

In fact, about a week ago, on April 6, there were fewer than 5,000 known cases and less than 200 Ohioans who had succumbed to COVID-19. Even with far more unknown cases than known and the efficacy of slowing viral transmission via mass sheltering, the data was not just flawed but perhaps even preposterous. State officials could have offered some official explanations for their misinformation other than the subtext that such fright was medicinal in persuading a public to do something they supposed the public did not know was good for it to do.
When California Governor Gavin Newsom warned that 25.5 million Californians "will" get the virus in the eight weeks following March 18, albeit without his shelter-in-place orders, he was also essentially stating that, at a then 2.6 percent lethality rate for Californians known to have the active virus, about 1 million would die. As I write, 24 days out from his prediction and nearing the half-way point to Doomsday, about 23,000 Californians have tested positive, and either are fighting the disease or have recovered. Since late January, about 650 of 40 million Californians have died from the disease, in a state where well over 700 people die from some cause every day.
If 10 times that number of known positive tests are now actively infected, we legitimately could assume at least 222,000 residents are now active or past carriers. Those who advised Newsom to shut down the world's sixth-largest economy, including universities like Cal Tech, UC Berkeley, and Stanford, Silicon Valley, and the commerce and livelihoods of 40 million residents, apparently did not factor into their models some possible collective immunity among thousands of Californians who, for months, were on the front lines of arriving flights from China.
Nor did modelers seem to factor in the ability of people to social distance even before the shutdown was ordered, or the fact that a virus that does not kill 95.5 percent of those who are infected, but not frontline health workers or over 60 years old, may be deemed by the public manageable in a way that does not require having multigenerational small businesses ruined, or careers destroyed, or retirement savings accounts wrecked, or key appointments with doctors postponed or canceled.
Repeating Past Mistakes


So you obviously didn't write this because it shows a rudimentary command of the English language plus doesn't mention black people killing whites in the 1970's. What's the source?
wifeisafurd
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OaktownBear said:

wifeisafurd said:

GBear4Life said:

okaydo said:



Newsom and the other (Democratic) governors are sending a message that Trump doesn't decide when the economy reopens. It's their decision.

Which was the topic of today's press briefing.

And yet Trump still thinks he has ultimate power.

And so what will happen is Trump will order the economy opened. Newsom and his fellow Dem governors won't comply. Trump will punish those states in some way. Newsom & Co. will sue the federal government. And the U.S. Supreme Court will vote 5-4 in favor of Trump, saying 10th amendment doesn't apply.
Can the LWNJs make up their minds?

First it's DTs fault for not wielding his power of states to force them to SIP (a power he doesn't have). When called out on this, many LWNJs back pedaled with the "he should be strongly encouraging states to SIP". Now it's DTs fault if he wields the power he doesn't have instead of yielding to states on SIP.
FWIW, Newsom announced today what would be a phased in opening, which could start in two weeks (which seems awful fast). He went out of the way to say they are working with Trump and the CDC.

That all of a sudden Trump should want to say something like it is a federal decision is ironic when he has let the state's make decisions so far. My gut tells me if California's reopening works, Trump will take credit for his coordinating with Newsom and if not, use his Federal powers to reinforce tight controls.

As for federal vs. state power, Federal law clearly allows the federal government to impose quarantines in most circumstances and limit or allow travel between states. That is a power expressly generated from the Constitutional powers(e.g., the interstate commence clause) and also indirectly from the Supremacy clause though various emergency powers acts. One interesting issue is that these emergency powers acts relate to acts of God and weather, and do not expressly state pandemics as a basis for invoking the emergency powers acts. I'm not sure the courts will care, and will consider COVID an emergency that falls under emergency declarations. One reason is if Trump doesn't have the power, it all means he also doesn't have the power to provide emergency aide, a result I just don't see the federal courts allowing).

Just so we are clear, that is not what Trump said. Instead, what he said "When somebody's president of the United States, the authority is total. And that's the way it's got to to be. It's total. It's total. And the governors know that." This is utter and complete garbage.

There is no authority that the that one branch of the federal government does not have "total" power either over the other branches of government or state and local power, and in fact the authority is just the opposite. It is also odd for a Republican President to assert same, as the Republicans tend to be more in favor of state rights; although, that paradigm may be changing with activist Democratic governors and Trump in the White House.

As a practical matter. Assuming Trump even has authority is this area, neither Trump nor the CDC is set-up to make broad decisions, when relaxing limitations will be local decisions, based on local conditions on the ground, with officials that have local data. .


I don't think Republicans tend to be more in favor of "state's rights". Both parties favor state's rights in different circumstances. Generally, center left to left politicians have a toxic reaction to the TERM "state's rights" because unfortunately that term got all tied up with defending slavery and then segregation, and to some extent pro-Life arguments. But when states want to do things like say, legalize marijuana or regulate guns, suddenly the parties switch points of view on state's rights even if the term doesn't enter the argument.
yes, that probably is accurate. Watched too much Bill Maher, where as soon as you mention state rights the liberal crowd goes ape probably thinking about the bad days of separate but equal, and George Wallace.
wifeisafurd
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I'm beginning to think the fix is in.

Cuomo, dealing with the worse area for COVID, says he "won't fight with Trump" about reopening the economy.
Trump may be spoiling for a fight, but New York and its surrounding states are ready to open the economy quickly. Huh?

Newsom is vague, but says some restrictions may loosen is some areas in two weeks, and by the way he and his group are working with the Trump and the CDC. Huh? Admittedly, things are not as bad as modeled, at least in California, but seriously, the courts are about the order court room be opened in June 15, which is a long way from now, and given the importance of the court system, that decision had to be based on on some medical basis. Two weeks?

Now bear in mind this is from Fox, I don't know the author, and he clearly has a bias. But you have to wonder if the saving the economy (and tax base) is at the heart of this rush toward reopening. Some of the numbers seem accurate on commercial tenants (who usually pay taxes in CAMs charges, not landlords), and you may even see Newsom have to come out against the split property tax or face a bad recession. And market value with the huge number of projected vacancies actually may mean property taxes reductions for most commercial landlords. The article doesn't even speak to the huge jump in office cap rates (that is bad btw), as many companies found it wasn't all that hard to have employees work at home, and the market absorbs that into pricing. Another reduction in property taxes. The more Newsom waits, the more that ballot proposition is dead on arrival, the more income tax, sales tax, and property tax revenues decline (regardless of the outcome of the ballot proposition). The alternatives is government cuts, in a State that has a huge number of workers who already will be staying on unemployment.

Tom Del Beccaro: Coronavirus in California shutdown worsens revenue woes, so guess what's coming? https://fxn.ws/3bbyjgX #FoxNews
prospeCt
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/coronavirus-distancing-continue-until-2022-lockdown-pandemic

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/coronavirus-lockdown-uk-libya-iraq-first-world-war-a9459341.html




https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/las-vegas-strip-closed-coronavirus#img-6

Unit2Sucks
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wifeisafurd said:

Unit2Sucks said:

wifeisafurd said:

Unit2Sucks said:

I have a hard time thinking that anyone will really pay attention to what this gang comes up with. Right now there are two professional government teams coming up with plans to reopen the country. The first is Cuomo along with his neighboring statements. The second is Newsom in California.

I tend to think that the governors are going to work together to build a sort of shadow interstate government (what you may call a "federal" government in the absence of one, imagine that). That should work out pretty well and give people confidence that a functional government can operate to keep people safe while allowing the economy to restart.

It's a shame that our pre-existing federal government is completely ill-equipped to do so, but there's nothing that can be done about that until the first Tuesday in November.


and you forgot Abbot in Texas who is just going to drop the lockdown soon, when he thinks he should.

I'm surprised Newsom is being so aggressive on reopening, but they may reflect the vision of we started lockdowns, and we can be ahead of everyone coming out. I'm wondering if just as there was pressure to be ultra safe when things went south in March, there now is pressure to prove you were right to drop restrictions early.



I don't know why you would think that Newsom being aggressive on announcing a plan to reopen means that he is rushing to reopen. I think it will show that he and the other governors are being strategic and thoughtful about how to reopen and how to communicate to their constituents.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect there will be several gates and that anyone who can WFH will still be WFH through the end of May, if not longer. Giving people enough runway to plan for reintegration is good governance.

Let's see what they announce tomorrow.
Became the language he used is somewhat skitzo from what he was saying two days ago, before Abbott and even Cuomo starting to talk about reopening. It seems like a race to reopen when there is such an abrupt transition. But yes, we will see tomorrow.



I don't hate to say I told you so. Clear difference in quality of leadership between Newsom and Trump. Hopefully more states will look to Newsom and his coalition for guidance.

Trump basically flinched today and acknowledged he will work with states on reopening but that may change if Gavin gets too much credit.
BearlyCareAnymore
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wifeisafurd said:

I'm beginning to think the fix is in.

Cuomo, dealing with the worse area for COVID, says he "won't fight with Trump" about reopening the economy.
Trump may be spoiling for a fight, but New York and its surrounding states are ready to open the economy quickly. Huh?

Newsom is vague, but says some restrictions may loosen is some areas in two weeks, and by the way he and his group are working with the Trump and the CDC. Huh? Admittedly, things are not as bad as modeled, at least in California, but seriously, the courts are about the order court room be opened in June 15, which is a long way from now, and given the importance of the court system, that decision had to be based on on some medical basis. Two weeks?

Now bear in mind this is from Fox, I don't know the author, and he clearly has a bias. But you have to wonder if the saving the economy (and tax base) is at the heart of this rush toward reopening. Some of the numbers seem accurate on commercial tenants (who usually pay taxes in CAMs charges, not landlords), and you may even see Newsom have to come out against the split property tax or face a bad recession. And market value with the huge number of projected vacancies actually may mean property taxes reductions for most commercial landlords. The article doesn't even speak to the huge jump in office cap rates (that is bad btw), as many companies found it wasn't all that hard to have employees work at home, and the market absorbs that into pricing. Another reduction in property taxes. The more Newsom waits, the more that ballot proposition is dead on arrival, the more income tax, sales tax, and property tax revenues decline (regardless of the outcome of the ballot proposition). The alternatives is government cuts, in a State that has a huge number of workers who already will be staying on unemployment.

Tom Del Beccaro: Coronavirus in California shutdown worsens revenue woes, so guess what's coming? https://fxn.ws/3bbyjgX #FoxNews



WIAF where did you hear opening in 2 weeks. I heard in 2 weeks we will have a better timeline for when and how we will start to open. Not that anything actually opens then
wifeisafurd
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OaktownBear said:

wifeisafurd said:

I'm beginning to think the fix is in.

Cuomo, dealing with the worse area for COVID, says he "won't fight with Trump" about reopening the economy.
Trump may be spoiling for a fight, but New York and its surrounding states are ready to open the economy quickly. Huh?

Newsom is vague, but says some restrictions may loosen is some areas in two weeks, and by the way he and his group are working with the Trump and the CDC. Huh? Admittedly, things are not as bad as modeled, at least in California, but seriously, the courts are about the order court room be opened in June 15, which is a long way from now, and given the importance of the court system, that decision had to be based on on some medical basis. Two weeks?

Now bear in mind this is from Fox, I don't know the author, and he clearly has a bias. But you have to wonder if the saving the economy (and tax base) is at the heart of this rush toward reopening. Some of the numbers seem accurate on commercial tenants (who usually pay taxes in CAMs charges, not landlords), and you may even see Newsom have to come out against the split property tax or face a bad recession. And market value with the huge number of projected vacancies actually may mean property taxes reductions for most commercial landlords. The article doesn't even speak to the huge jump in office cap rates (that is bad btw), as many companies found it wasn't all that hard to have employees work at home, and the market absorbs that into pricing. Another reduction in property taxes. The more Newsom waits, the more that ballot proposition is dead on arrival, the more income tax, sales tax, and property tax revenues decline (regardless of the outcome of the ballot proposition). The alternatives is government cuts, in a State that has a huge number of workers who already will be staying on unemployment.

Tom Del Beccaro: Coronavirus in California shutdown worsens revenue woes, so guess what's coming? https://fxn.ws/3bbyjgX #FoxNews



WIAF where did you hear opening in 2 weeks. I heard in 2 weeks we will have a better timeline for when and how we will start to open. Not that anything actually opens then
He said ask me in the first week of May and I may be able to tell you some good news. There are some remote counties that probably can open to some degree due to lack of cases.

BTW, Trump and Cuomo just got into a shouting match. You can't really say anything for certain when it comes to Trump. He had the Governors cooperating and blew it screaming about the fact that Cuomo said Trump thought he was king. His thin skin is the bain of our existence.
bearister
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Opinion | Post-Pandemic, Here's How America Rises Again - The New York Times


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/stimulus-infrastructure-covid.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/stimulus-infrastructure-covid.html?referringSource=articleShare
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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kelly09 said:

golden sloth said:

kelly09 said:

OaktownBear said:

golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

Newsome outlines plan to re open economy. Man he's probably going to get blasted by the same people who had a hard time with this concept recently...unless there's a double standard or something.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Governor-Gavin-Newsom-California-reopening-15200128.php


Read the article and I am underwhelmed. It's a big nothing burger, no details, no guidelines for what would open and what would not or when.
I watched the news conference. He never said things were opening in two weeks. He said in two weeks we'll have a timeline. The news conference was not billed as, nor was it, the unveiling of a plan. He stated it was making public the factors that go into the determining the plan that have been discussed privately to be transparent. Basically, it was describing the 6 factors they feel they need solid answers on before we can open things up and how they are working through that. If you were looking for a plan, yes, this was not it.
n March 12, Governor DeWine of Ohio, flanked by his state health director, told the 11 million residents of Ohio that based on models he knew that 100,000 "had" active cases of the disease. That was a caseload that his experts further warned would double every six days. In other words, at the then roughly 2 percent lethality rate of the known actively infectedhis medical team all but frightened the state with the certainty that in 24 days there could be 1.6 million infected Ohioans and an assumed 40,000 dead.

In fact, about a week ago, on April 6, there were fewer than 5,000 known cases and less than 200 Ohioans who had succumbed to COVID-19. Even with far more unknown cases than known and the efficacy of slowing viral transmission via mass sheltering, the data was not just flawed but perhaps even preposterous. State officials could have offered some official explanations for their misinformation other than the subtext that such fright was medicinal in persuading a public to do something they supposed the public did not know was good for it to do.
When California Governor Gavin Newsom warned that 25.5 million Californians "will" get the virus in the eight weeks following March 18, albeit without his shelter-in-place orders, he was also essentially stating that, at a then 2.6 percent lethality rate for Californians known to have the active virus, about 1 million would die. As I write, 24 days out from his prediction and nearing the half-way point to Doomsday, about 23,000 Californians have tested positive, and either are fighting the disease or have recovered. Since late January, about 650 of 40 million Californians have died from the disease, in a state where well over 700 people die from some cause every day.
If 10 times that number of known positive tests are now actively infected, we legitimately could assume at least 222,000 residents are now active or past carriers. Those who advised Newsom to shut down the world's sixth-largest economy, including universities like Cal Tech, UC Berkeley, and Stanford, Silicon Valley, and the commerce and livelihoods of 40 million residents, apparently did not factor into their models some possible collective immunity among thousands of Californians who, for months, were on the front lines of arriving flights from China.
Nor did modelers seem to factor in the ability of people to social distance even before the shutdown was ordered, or the fact that a virus that does not kill 95.5 percent of those who are infected, but not frontline health workers or over 60 years old, may be deemed by the public manageable in a way that does not require having multigenerational small businesses ruined, or careers destroyed, or retirement savings accounts wrecked, or key appointments with doctors postponed or canceled.
Repeating Past Mistakes


I dont really understand your point. Those models were based on the assumption that we collectively do nothing. We took action, specifically to have the modeling forecasts not actually happen and be wrong.
The action that was taken saved 2 million lives in California? BS!
I know that facts are fake and truth isn't truth anymore, but using your earlier numbers, 25.5 million dying at a 2.6% death rate is about 660,000 deaths, not even close to 2 million deaths. Keeping it almost 2 orders of magnitude less than that is pretty heroic.
Yogi04
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wifeisafurd said:


BTW, Trump and Cuomo just got into a shouting match. You can't really say anything for certain when it comes to Trump. He had the Governors cooperating and blew it screaming about the fact that Cuomo said Trump thought he was king. His thin skin is the bain of our existence.
LOL

You voted for him.
Anarchistbear
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Mitt Romney -not Trump- is the Bain of our existence
wifeisafurd
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Probably need to back off my statement about reopening too early (the " fix is in" comment):


J&J eyes 'imminent' coronavirus vaccine production, aims for a billion doses worldwide https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jj-coronavirus-vaccine-we-plan-to-begin-production-at-risk-imminently-210204457.html?soc_src=social-

"Abbott announces new coronavirus antibody test that could do up to 20 million screenings in June" https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/15/new-coronavirus-antibody-test-announced-by-abbott.html?__source=sharebar|twitter&par=sharebar

Note antibodies testing isn't perfect.

Still medical protection developments and results beating models may be behind optimistic comments by Newsom and other Governors. It is hard to get a beat on statements by political leaders when our knowledge base keeps changing.

wifeisafurd
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Professor Henry Higgins said:

wifeisafurd said:


BTW, Trump and Cuomo just got into a shouting match. You can't really say anything for certain when it comes to Trump. He had the Governors cooperating and blew it screaming about the fact that Cuomo said Trump thought he was king. His thin skin is the bain of our existence.
LOL

You voted for him.
wow, another productive comment from the resident two year old.
bearister
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Is the tRump Crime Family going to get an opportunity to get its beak wet in the company that produces the vaccine?*


*The tRump real estate empire is tits up. They are going to need to supplement that lost income because they believe the billions made from stock market manipulation may not cover their needs. Additionally they are concerned that if Cambridge Analytica and Putin can't "deliver" the 2020 Election, the ability to divert billions from the COVID 19 Stimulus into Crime Family coffers will be compromised.
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golden sloth
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wifeisafurd said:

Professor Henry Higgins said:

wifeisafurd said:


BTW, Trump and Cuomo just got into a shouting match. You can't really say anything for certain when it comes to Trump. He had the Governors cooperating and blew it screaming about the fact that Cuomo said Trump thought he was king. His thin skin is the bain of our existence.
LOL

You voted for him.
wow, another productive comment from the resident two year old.


I also find it amazing that the antics don't entice anyone to change their opinions or choices, if anything the antics make people just want to become entrenched in their current positions.
bearister
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golden sloth said:

wifeisafurd said:

Professor Henry Higgins said:

wifeisafurd said:


BTW, Trump and Cuomo just got into a shouting match. You can't really say anything for certain when it comes to Trump. He had the Governors cooperating and blew it screaming about the fact that Cuomo said Trump thought he was king. His thin skin is the bain of our existence.
LOL

You voted for him.
wow, another productive comment from the resident two year old.


I also find it amazing that the antics don't entice anyone to change their opinions or choices, if anything the antics make people just want to become entrenched in their current positions.


" But these results are an intriguing step: The brain processes politically charged information (or information about strongly held beliefs) differently (and perhaps with more emotion) than it processes more mundane facts. It can help explain why attempts to correct misinformation can backfire completely, leaving people more convinced of their convictions."

A new brain study sheds light on why it can be so hard to change someone's political beliefs - Vox


https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/12/28/14088992/brain-study-change-minds
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/science-and-health/2016/12/28/14088992/brain-study-change-minds
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kelly09
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https://americanmind.org/essays/a-time-for-statesmanship/
bearister
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" Many are understandably questioning the expert consensus and opinion that undergirds the lockdowns. Who's right and who's wrong about a virus we still know little about is not going to be determined anytime soon."

I hate to inform the author that the trained pulled out of the station a long time ago regarding who was right and who was wrong regarding shelter in place orders and the timing thereof.


" The great exception on the national scene is President Donald Trump, who is not bound by calcified ideological frameworks. Contrary to his flailing critics, the president has been proven right about borders, China, trade, and globalism. He is the only one who now canand eventually will, because he mustlook for and implement foundational policies that lead America past the pandemic crisis and political paralysis into a new century of greatness. Governor Gavin Newsom was recently asked "what key metric" he would use to determine when to reopen California. The next day, he gave six general areas in which metrics would guide the state, saying "this phase is one where science, where public health, not politics, must be the guide." Governor Newsom is a political man, and he knows that what he at one point called "imperfect science" alone cannot decide these questions. He has won the approval of many with his words, but the result of his unfolding approach remains to be seen."

He is ignoring reality here and blew up his credibility.
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