What is shocking is that people don't see the anti democratic authoritarianism on both sides. The Republicans trust clueless " strong men" like Trump and Musk- both of whom advance their personal agenda at the risk of their followers. The Democrats trust politicians and experts who try to make this " science" when it's just a one size fits all top down scheme. In all of this the people who are in jeopardy are marginalized and not heard while lawyers in love ruminate.

Ca.,NY, NJ (all locked down), have about 42000 covid deaths
Fla., Tex, and Georgia with about the same population have a combined 4700 deaths.

While talking with reporters on Friday, the Packers quarterback was asked if he believes it's safe to play football this season. His answer went to some interesting places.
From WISN's Stephen Watson:

Quote:

---

"Yeah that's a good question. Like many of us, and I've seen a lot of comments on this, and obviously my story coming back from Peru before the country kind of went into a lockdown, I think we all were buying into the idea of quarantine to flatten the curve.
"I think there are a lot of questions now that it's more of a house arrest to find a cure with people wondering what exactly that means as far as the future of the country and the freedoms we are allowed to have at this point."

---

From Aaron Rodgers

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

kelly09 said:

---

Ca.,NY, NJ (all locked down), have about 42000 covid deaths
Fla., Tex, and Georgia with about the same population have a combined 4700 deaths.

---

Other than playing with numbers, what is your point? Deaths per million/pop Georgia has 2 times California's number.

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

There is a local public health official also other local health professionals who know as much as Newsom. The local politicians are more responsive to their constituency their needs and the local situation but who is voting on this- certainly not the people's representatives- it is all edict. . Modoc County doesn't need a solution from Newsom. They can figure it out for themselves

dimitrig said:

---

I was going to edit my post to say that the dates are arrived at by a combination of epidemiology and practicality. The epidemiology says that cases are still increasing. If we were willing to SIP with 10% the number of cases then why would we not be when the number of cases is 10x as many? You are a lot more likely to catch it now than you were on Easter which means you are more likely to bring it into the workplace. For us, that is just something we can't afford to have happen.

In practical terms, we have just not been able to open up safely. We have multibillions per year in contracts and yet we had trouble obtaining really simple items like hand sanitizer. It is only in the last week or two that we can even get our hands on actual Purell. Up until then we had been buying hand sanitizer from a distillery. Since we have the capability to test we actually tested it to make sure it was up to standards. But then we could not find enough pump bottles to actually deploy it to the end users. Who know the actual bottles would be hard to get? So we could only safely work at the numbers we were at because of lack of availability of supplies which I think is ab-so-lute-ly ridiculous! Now that we are finally able to start resolving these practical issues (which also involve designing patterns of flow in the office and procedures for disinfecting keyboards and basic stuff like that) we finally feel like we can think about reopening. That just wasn't a possibility until recently unless the epidemiology supported it, which it doesn't.

We have a highly skilled, highly trained workforce. Losing a significant percentage of that to a virus would be a big blow. It is a risk we cannot take. If you are an employer with an unskilled workforce then you are willing to take on more risk because it is easier to replace employees if they quit or, God forbid, die. However, those employees should not be forced into risking their lives or the lives of their loved ones just because they are easier to replace.

These Republican governors (and others) who insist on reopening are not providing a means for people to do so safely. Some employers will take it upon themselves to protect their employees but many won't and, quite frankly given our experience obtaining PPE, I think that even if they want to do the right thing they won't be able to either because of cost or availability of the supplies needed to do so safely.

I see this environment as very risky for small business right now unless the owner is a very caring and responsible owner with not only the financial strength to do it but the intellectual capacity to thoroughly understand and mitigate the risks. I fear many will not be.

In some sense I think it is incumbent on us as a society to protect our weakest and most vulnerable populations. yes, the right derides that as liberal elites who want to tell you what is best for you. That is probably a fair characterization. However, jobs will come back. People won't.

Our current administration doesn't care if you die and they don't care if you lose your house either. It is every man for himself. To me it is incumbent on those of us who know better to push back against that whether it is well-received by everyone or not. Trust me when I say that we have some very well educated employees who are Republicans and Libertarians who think this whole SIP is stupid and want to get back to work. I think it is okay for them to fume a little bit, because we are going to need them and they are useless to us dead or incapacitated because they have some misguided ideas about liberty and freedom.

---

Oh good God. How the hell did mankind ever function before Purell?

Is there a shortage of hot water? Is there a shortage of soap? Then there isn't a problem.

There are only three thing any business needs to tell their employees to reopen safely.

1. Wear a mask when near other people. Cloth is fine. You're not working around critically ill people.
2. Social distance as much as possible.
3. Wash your hands regularly and don't touch your face.

We've known all these things for a long time. The hospitals are nowhere near critical overflow.

So as hanky keeps asking and asking without a decnet answer WHAT IN THE ****ING **** IS THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE CONTINUATION OF THIS STAY IN PLACE ORDER?

If someone comes near you who isn't doing 1 and 2, you have a very simple remedy. Do 1 & 2 yourself.

To quote Sensei Lawrence from Cobrai Kai, stop being *******.

Go!Bears said:

---

kelly09 said:

---

Ca.,NY, NJ (all locked down), have about 42000 covid deaths
Fla., Tex, and Georgia with about the same population have a combined 4700 deaths.

---

Other than playing with numbers, what is your point? Deaths per million/pop Georgia has 2 times California's number.

---

You are right. So why is all of California locked down? Hell, open Contra Costa. It's less per million than any of the stares I mentioned. And it is really locked down.

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

Name me one governor of a state that is doing something right now that is unpopular with the majority of their voters. Good health policy is NOT what's driving the decisions in these states.

Lucas Lee said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

Name me one governor of a state that is doing something right now that is unpopular with the majority of their voters. Good health policy is NOT what's driving the decisions in these states.

---

Maybe Wisconsin, but you have a great point.

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

There is a local public health official also other local health professionals who know as much as Newsom. The local politicians are more responsive to their constituency their needs and the local situation but who is voting on this- certainly not the people's representatives- it is all edict. . Modoc County doesn't need a solution from Newsom. They can figure it out for themselves

---

So you think a patchwork of different policies will work? People do travel from county to county. Someone needs to create overarching rules to set minimum standards.

In practice, Newsom has allowed counties some flexibility (those decisions are largely driven by the local health officials you cited above). For example, the Bay Area counties opted to hold off on moving to "Stage 2" of reopening even after the state loosened restrictions overall, though many are going there on Monday. And counties that want to reopen faster are able to do so, provided they meet certain metrics. Seems like a decent balance to me.

Lucas Lee said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

Name me one governor of a state that is doing something right now that is unpopular with the majority of their voters. Good health policy is NOT what's driving the decisions in these states.

---

Now I'm really confused. Is it bad or good when politicians listen to the will of the people?

sycasey said:

---

Lucas Lee said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

Name me one governor of a state that is doing something right now that is unpopular with the majority of their voters. Good health policy is NOT what's driving the decisions in these states.

---

Now I'm really confused. Is it bad or good when politicians listen to the will of the people?

---

https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/your-representative-owes-you-not-his-industry-only-his-judgement-and-he-betrays-you-instead

Lucas Lee said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Lucas Lee said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

Name me one governor of a state that is doing something right now that is unpopular with the majority of their voters. Good health policy is NOT what's driving the decisions in these states.

---

Now I'm really confused. Is it bad or good when politicians listen to the will of the people?

---

https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/your-representative-owes-you-not-his-industry-only-his-judgement-and-he-betrays-you-instead

---

But earlier Anarchistbear was arguing that we shouldn't bother listening to the "experts" and instead should listen to the local people in our communities. So which is it?

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

There is a local public health official also other local health professionals who know as much as Newsom. The local politicians are more responsive to their constituency their needs and the local situation but who is voting on this- certainly not the people's representatives- it is all edict. . Modoc County doesn't need a solution from Newsom. They can figure it out for themselves

---

So you think a patchwork of different policies will work? People do travel from county to county. Someone needs to create overarching rules to set minimum standards.

In practice, Newsom has allowed counties some flexibility (those decisions are largely driven by the local health officials you cited above). For example, the Bay Area counties opted to hold off on moving to "Stage 2" of reopening even after the state loosened restrictions overall, though many are going there on Monday. And counties that want to reopen faster are able to do so, provided they meet certain metrics. Seems like a decent balance to me.

---

The whole country is a patchwork of different policies. Neither the state nor the country is a clean room- movement can't be controlled by arbitrary county or state lines . What should happen within the states is coordination and harmonization between counties and states in reporting and tracking. Newsom has been flexible until confronted- he backed down. The phase stuff is not for him to decide neither are the metrics. It's for us to decide in concert with our officials and if we decide to stay closed that is fine.

sycasey said:

---

Lucas Lee said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Lucas Lee said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

Name me one governor of a state that is doing something right now that is unpopular with the majority of their voters. Good health policy is NOT what's driving the decisions in these states.

---

Now I'm really confused. Is it bad or good when politicians listen to the will of the people?

---

https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/your-representative-owes-you-not-his-industry-only-his-judgement-and-he-betrays-you-instead

---

But earlier Anarchistbear was arguing that we shouldn't bother listening to the "experts" and instead should listen to the local people in our communities. So which is it?

---

Stop lawyering. I'll stipulate we should listen to "local experts" if it makes you feel like you made a point.

hanky1 said:

---

One of the best takes I've heard on COVID

---

He's correct about the cultural divide, and how that dynamic affects how people interpret information and news, but he's wrong in asserting that "empathy" -- the feeling of compassion towards those who are adversely affected -- as a consideration for what the right action to take is. The reasons for opening up or not opening up the economy has to stand on its own -- it can't be used to appeal to the denominator of empathy and compassion. That empathy can be weighed by economic realities -- e.g unemployment.

dimitrig said:

---

We wouldn't have to have all of these ridiculous policies if Trump didn't allow some governors to just do nothing. Trust me when I say that this epidemic will be more costly the way that Trump is handling it than it could have been. Trump likes to focus on the shutdown destroying the economy, but it is his inaction that has led to that.

---

Have you read the constitution or maybe a book about federalism? Trump doesn't have the authority to order governors to do anything re SIP or most other local law enforcement/emergency proclamations. If he did, California would not be a sanctuary state.

And think about it, do you want anyone - particularly Trump - to have that type of power?

Also, please identify which governors have done "nothing." Very interested to find out who that is and see who their states are doing on the COVID metrics.

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Lucas Lee said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Lucas Lee said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

Name me one governor of a state that is doing something right now that is unpopular with the majority of their voters. Good health policy is NOT what's driving the decisions in these states.

---

Now I'm really confused. Is it bad or good when politicians listen to the will of the people?

---

https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/your-representative-owes-you-not-his-industry-only-his-judgement-and-he-betrays-you-instead

---

But earlier Anarchistbear was arguing that we shouldn't bother listening to the "experts" and instead should listen to the local people in our communities. So which is it?

---

Stop lawyering. I'll stipulate we should listen to "local experts" if it makes you feel like you made a point.

---

People seem to accuse me of "lawyering" a lot. I'm not a lawyer, but I'll take that as an indication that I'm good at rhetorical argument. Thank you.

calbear93 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

OK, let's bottom line this because I feel like we are just engaging in semantics. When do you think CA will reopen and why is that future date versus now a better date? I have not heard of a firm date. Saying there is a plan is meaningless because there has always been a plan but we are still shut down. As I stated earlier, this type of debate is a luxury of the rich like us. When can those families where the parents have lost jobs permanently and will not get it back anytime soon be told they can start looking for jobs again? Have you had to tell your kids you lost your job? I am fortunate that I can do my job indefinitely remotely and my job is not at risk. And my wealth has for the most part been preserved. What is the date? And really any date that has been given in the past has moved further back. I completely get why people are protesting and I don't dismiss them as idiots like some have implied here. And I believe the Democrats are at the tipping point of losing the battle of messaging that was a slam dunk when Trump, as expected, was being the complete feckless leader he is.

---

What this comes down to is risk management.

I will tell you the dates that my employer is planning for. We have had people who need to do critical work on-site the entire time. That is about 5-10% of the workforce. Starting next week that number is going to double to about 15% of the workforce. The reason for the increase is that we have to do it in order to meet our commitments. So starting next week about 15% of the workforce will be going into work regularly.

So what about the other 85%? Of the other 85% we are looking at having about half of those back starting in July. We fully expect the other half of the workforce to not come back until possibly January of 2021 and allow people to telecommute until then if they can and have to either because of children or because they are just uncomfortable.

Now, a lot of the work that we do lends itself to telecommuting and so we have the luxury of coming back slowly, but that is what our leadership has determined is a safe and responsible course of action. Also, we have a lot of older employees who are very difficult to replace (world leaders in their fields) who are maybe more at risk than the general population so we have to protect them.

We are just now starting to be able to obtain the supplies of hand sanitizer, masks, disinfectant, and other items we will need in the quantity we will need. We are making other changes, too, like converting more doors into automatically opening doors and installing HEPA filters in the HVAC system where possible. Until we can get the supplies we need and can finish making other changes (some which pose real challenges both in terms of logistics and privacy - like for example the possibility of mandatory testing or taking temperatures when entering) we are not putting our employees at risk because without them we can't make our deliverables.

The economy will not be fully open until everyone can mitigate the risk of opening. For some people that will be sooner than others. That is why setting a date is a silly idea. You can set all the dates you want, but business will hire/get back to work when they are ready and so will employees. Don't expect anything close to normal until sometime in 2021. So that's your date: spring of 2021 to be fully reopened.

If you want a date for when companies can start to make those decisions for themselves, then I would say that we are getting closer. July 1 seems like a date that people can plan to, although some areas like LA may find themselves under restrictions even longer than that.

---

That is consistent with what we are doing with essential workers who need to be on site working while most of us are telecommuting. We have not restructured the workforce or furloughed any employees. We are fortunate. I am not asking the economy to be opened up for those like us although even all of us will eventually be impacted. We are not the ones hurt by this. I can do this indefinitely other than overcoming my sense of restlessness.

How about the hourly employees at small businesses, restaurant workers, etc. who do not have the ability to be enjoy the conservative risk mitigation? It is too easy for the privileged like us to take this position. I am fairly certain if your job was permanently eliminated, you may not be as patient and willing to be conservative.

---

This is exactly right. Its great that white collar employees and the companies that employ them can adapt. That's not true for an awful lot of people who, in general, happen to be the most vulnerable.

GBear4Life said:

---

hanky1 said:

---

One of the best takes I've heard on COVID

---

He's correct about the cultural divide, and how that dynamic affects how people interpret information and news, but he's wrong in asserting that "empathy" -- the feeling of compassion towards those who are adversely affected -- as a consideration for what the right action to take is. The reasons for opening up or not opening up the economy has to stand on its own -- it can't be used to appeal to the denominator of empathy and compassion. That empathy can be weighed by economic realities -- e.g unemployment.

---

The mistake many blue collar workers are making is in thinking that somehow anyone with an education is part of an "overclass" seeking to dominate them. In many cases it is the opposite. Yet they hate Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez but love Donald Trump. It is like the whole world is upside down. Republicans have declared war on the middle class. We need to reverse that trend because when the middle class is gone there will be no one to speak for the rest.

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

There is a local public health official also other local health professionals who know as much as Newsom. The local politicians are more responsive to their constituency their needs and the local situation but who is voting on this- certainly not the people's representatives- it is all edict. . Modoc County doesn't need a solution from Newsom. They can figure it out for themselves

---

So you think a patchwork of different policies will work? People do travel from county to county. Someone needs to create overarching rules to set minimum standards.

In practice, Newsom has allowed counties some flexibility (those decisions are largely driven by the local health officials you cited above). For example, the Bay Area counties opted to hold off on moving to "Stage 2" of reopening even after the state loosened restrictions overall, though many are going there on Monday. And counties that want to reopen faster are able to do so, provided they meet certain metrics. Seems like a decent balance to me.

---

Sycasey - do you have any evidence to support the bolded statements for major population centers? Obviously, Newsom is allowing counties to go slower than recommended - but there's not much if any evidence that he's allowing larger counties to reopen faster.

We went back and forth on this previously and you acknowledged that the "certain metrics" required to reopen faster are not achievable in most areas (e.g., no covid deaths for 14 consecutive days and No more than 1 case per 10,000 people in the last 14 days). You and Unit2 were convinced that the variance process was the solution to that. Where are the variances for larger counties?

Below is a link to the requirements for the variance. Unless I'm misreading the variance requirements (which is possible), they seem to be equally unreasonable/unachievable. For example, even to get a variance, it appears the County must attest that there have been no covid deaths for 14 consecutive days and no more than 1 case per 10,000 people in the last 14 days - the exact same unachievable requirements.

https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/COVID-19-County-Variance-Attestation-Memo.aspx

Form Here: https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/CDPH%20Document%20Library/COVID-19/CDPH%20COVID19%20County%20Variance%20Attestation%20Form.pdf

Here's a list of the variances granted - not a single large county. https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/Local-Variance-Attestations.aspx

And just to be clear, I have a solid source that OC and other So Cal counties (I assume excluding LA) have been pursuing variances and can't get them because Sacramento won't waive these requirements. There is increasing frustration to the point that reportedly other options are being considered.

As an aside, here's a cool tool where you can see how each county is doing in terms of the Stage 2 metrics.

https://covid19.ca.gov/roadmap-counties/

dimitrig said:

---

GBear4Life said:

---

hanky1 said:

---

One of the best takes I've heard on COVID

---

He's correct about the cultural divide, and how that dynamic affects how people interpret information and news, but he's wrong in asserting that "empathy" -- the feeling of compassion towards those who are adversely affected -- as a consideration for what the right action to take is. The reasons for opening up or not opening up the economy has to stand on its own -- it can't be used to appeal to the denominator of empathy and compassion. That empathy can be weighed by economic realities -- e.g unemployment.

---

The mistake many blue collar workers are making is in thinking that somehow anyone with an education is part of an "overclass" seeking to dominate them. In many cases it is the opposite. Yet they hate Alexandria Ocasio-Ortiz but love Donald Trump. It is like the whole world is upside down. Republicans have declared war on the middle class. We need to reverse that trend because when the middle class is gone there will be no one to speak for the rest.

---

I doubt blue collar workers think the overclass is seeking to dominate them. Rather, the overclass (including AOC) are making decisions that ignore their needs and realities. From Peggy Noonan/WSJ:

There is a class divide between those who are hard-line on lockdowns and those who are pushing back. We see the professionals on one sidethose James Burnham called the managerial elite, and Michael Lind, in "The New Class War," calls "the overclass"and regular people on the other. The overclass are highly educated and exert outsize influence as managers and leaders of important institutionshospitals, companies, statehouses. The normal people aren't connected through professional or social lines to power structures, and they have regular jobsservice worker, small-business owner.

Since the pandemic began, the overclass has been in chargescientists, doctors, political figures, consultantscalling the shots for the average people. But personally they have less skin in the game. The National Institutes of Health scientist won't lose his livelihood over what's happened. Neither will the midday anchor.

I've called this divide the protected versus the unprotected. There is an aspect of it that is not much discussed but bears on current arguments. How you have experienced life has a lot to do with how you experience the pandemic and its strictures. I think it's fair to say citizens of red states have been pushing back harder than those of blue states.

It's not that those in red states don't think there's a pandemic. They've heard all about it! They realize it will continue, they know they may get sick themselves. But they also figure this way: Hundreds of thousands could die and the American economy taken down, which would mean millions of other casualties, economic ones. Or, hundreds of thousands could die and the American economy is damaged but still stands, in which case there will be fewer economic casualtiesfewer bankruptcies and foreclosures, fewer unemployed and ruined.

sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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Stop lawyering. I'll stipulate we should listen to "local experts" if it makes you feel like you made a point.

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People seem to accuse me of "lawyering" a lot. I'm not a lawyer, but I'll take that as an indication that I'm good at rhetorical argument. Thank you.

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When people accuse others of "lawyering" in a debate, they are saying that person is being a tedious and pedantic c*nt.

BearGoggles said:

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dimitrig said:

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We wouldn't have to have all of these ridiculous policies if Trump didn't allow some governors to just do nothing. Trust me when I say that this epidemic will be more costly the way that Trump is handling it than it could have been. Trump likes to focus on the shutdown destroying the economy, but it is his inaction that has led to that.

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Have you read the constitution or maybe a book about federalism? Trump doesn't have the authority to order governors to do anything re SIP or most other local law enforcement/emergency proclamations. If he did, California would not be a sanctuary state.

And think about it, do you want anyone - particularly Trump - to have that type of power?

Also, please identify which governors have done "nothing." Very interested to find out who that is and see who their states are doing on the COVID metrics.

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He doesn't have the authority, nor does he want it, but he's a tyrant.

sycasey said:

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Lucas Lee said:

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sycasey said:

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Lucas Lee said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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The Democrats trust politicians and experts

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I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

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There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

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Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

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Name me one governor of a state that is doing something right now that is unpopular with the majority of their voters. Good health policy is NOT what's driving the decisions in these states.

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Now I'm really confused. Is it bad or good when politicians listen to the will of the people?

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https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/your-representative-owes-you-not-his-industry-only-his-judgement-and-he-betrays-you-instead

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But earlier Anarchistbear was arguing that we shouldn't bother listening to the "experts" and instead should listen to the local people in our communities. So which is it?

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https://media.tenor.com/images/c3a25d29c8db76299470ff8ee4439cf5/tenor.gif

sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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Stop lawyering. I'll stipulate we should listen to "local experts" if it makes you feel like you made a point.

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People seem to accuse me of "lawyering" a lot. I'm not a lawyer, but I'll take that as an indication that I'm good at rhetorical argument. Thank you.

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You aren't. You're good at rhetorical argument like WIAF is good at voting for president.

US lockdown protests may have spread virus widely, cellphone data suggests | US news | The Guardian


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/18/lockdown-protests-spread-coronavirus-cellphone-data

Strip clubs are reopening: Wyoming club throws 'masks on' party


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/17/strip-clubs-reopening-wyoming-club-throws-masks-on-party/5190889002/

BearGoggles said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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The Democrats trust politicians and experts

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I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

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There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

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Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

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There is a local public health official also other local health professionals who know as much as Newsom. The local politicians are more responsive to their constituency their needs and the local situation but who is voting on this- certainly not the people's representatives- it is all edict. . Modoc County doesn't need a solution from Newsom. They can figure it out for themselves

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So you think a patchwork of different policies will work? People do travel from county to county. Someone needs to create overarching rules to set minimum standards.

In practice, Newsom has allowed counties some flexibility (those decisions are largely driven by the local health officials you cited above). For example, the Bay Area counties opted to hold off on moving to "Stage 2" of reopening even after the state loosened restrictions overall, though many are going there on Monday. And counties that want to reopen faster are able to do so, provided they meet certain metrics. Seems like a decent balance to me.

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Sycasey - do you have any evidence to support the bolded statements for major population centers? Obviously, Newsom is allowing counties to go slower than recommended - but there's not much if any evidence that he's allowing larger counties to reopen faster.

We went back and forth on this previously and you acknowledged that the "certain metrics" required to reopen faster are not achievable in most areas (e.g., no covid deaths for 14 consecutive days and No more than 1 case per 10,000 people in the last 14 days). You and Unit2 were convinced that the variance process was the solution to that. Where are the variances for larger counties?

Below is a link to the requirements for the variance. Unless I'm misreading the variance requirements (which is possible), they seem to be equally unreasonable/unachievable. For example, even to get a variance, it appears the County must attest that there have been no covid deaths for 14 consecutive days and no more than 1 case per 10,000 people in the last 14 days - the exact same unachievable requirements.

https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/COVID-19-County-Variance-Attestation-Memo.aspx

Form Here: https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/CDPH%20Document%20Library/COVID-19/CDPH%20COVID19%20County%20Variance%20Attestation%20Form.pdf

Here's a list of the variances granted - not a single large county. https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/Local-Variance-Attestations.aspx

And just to be clear, I have a solid source that OC and other So Cal counties (I assume excluding LA) have been pursuing variances and can't get them because Sacramento won't waive these requirements. There is increasing frustration to the point that reportedly other options are being considered.

As an aside, here's a cool tool where you can see how each county is doing in terms of the Stage 2 metrics.

https://covid19.ca.gov/roadmap-counties/

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The larger counties have not met the standards and thus are not reopening sooner.

bearister said:

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US lockdown protests may have spread virus widely, cellphone data suggests | US news | The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/18/lockdown-protests-spread-coronavirus-cellphone-data

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This is fairly irresponsible journalism and fairly irresponsible use of cellphone data by the makers of the app. I would list all the things wrong with it, but I would hope (irrationally given this board) that thinking people would be able to pick apart the things wrong with this article.

Matthew Patel said:

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sycasey said:

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Lucas Lee said:

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sycasey said:

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Lucas Lee said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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The Democrats trust politicians and experts

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I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

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There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

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Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

Name me one governor of a state that is doing something right now that is unpopular with the majority of their voters. Good health policy is NOT what's driving the decisions in these states.

---

Now I'm really confused. Is it bad or good when politicians listen to the will of the people?

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https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/your-representative-owes-you-not-his-industry-only-his-judgement-and-he-betrays-you-instead

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But earlier Anarchistbear was arguing that we shouldn't bother listening to the "experts" and instead should listen to the local people in our communities. So which is it?

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People who make weak arguments tend to get annoyed and lash out when someone points out their inconsistencies. Not sure what to do about that.

sycasey said:

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Matthew Patel said:

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sycasey said:

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Lucas Lee said:

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sycasey said:

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Lucas Lee said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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The Democrats trust politicians and experts

---

I'm confused. If listening to experts is bad, who should we listen to?

---

There are many experts with conflicting and one size fits all advice. Trust the people in your own community and let the people or their representatives be part of the process.

---

Why would I trust the people in my community who have no knowledge about this new disease and how it spreads?

The people's representatives are part of the process. Those are the politicians, who you also said not to trust.

---

Name me one governor of a state that is doing something right now that is unpopular with the majority of their voters. Good health policy is NOT what's driving the decisions in these states.

---

Now I'm really confused. Is it bad or good when politicians listen to the will of the people?

---

https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/your-representative-owes-you-not-his-industry-only-his-judgement-and-he-betrays-you-instead

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But earlier Anarchistbear was arguing that we shouldn't bother listening to the "experts" and instead should listen to the local people in our communities. So which is it?

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People who make weak arguments tend to get annoyed and lash out when someone points out their inconsistencies. Not sure what to do about that.

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Very true. Must be hard for you.

GBear4Life said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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Stop lawyering. I'll stipulate we should listen to "local experts" if it makes you feel like you made a point.

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People seem to accuse me of "lawyering" a lot. I'm not a lawyer, but I'll take that as an indication that I'm good at rhetorical argument. Thank you.

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When people accuse others of "lawyering" in a debate, they are saying that person is being a tedious and pedantic c*nt.

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I have to agree with you given you experiences in being a tedious and pedantic ****.