LMK5 said:
golden sloth said:
LMK5 said:
golden sloth said:
sp4149 said:
LMK5 said:
Far left factions, such as Antifa and the like, will gravitate towards the Dems, and the far right gun nuts will do the opposite. Nothing new here.
I'd like to hear your comments on Whitmer's new restrictions. Do you think they're reasonable? A lot of these governors are relishing in their new-found powers and won't give them up without a fight. She's trying to gain as much publicity as possible to be first in line for Biden's #2. It's going to backfire due to her overreach. Biden needs Michigan.
Michigan roars into third place in COVID-19 deaths.
Obviously Michigan hasn't done enough.
Michigan residents who don't want to be part of the solution, "Are not helping"
What I dont like about these protesters is they assume that if the stay at home orders were not in place, everything would be fine. That is an incorrect assumption in my opinion. People would still be staying at home in large numbers. I went bar hopping in sf the Thursday before the lockdown, and there was no one out. The bars were at 10% their normal volume of customers. I went to lunch the in fidi the day before lockdown and no one was there. They were at probably less than 5% usual volume.
Point being, the lockdown orders aren't what killed business, it was the disease and it killed them before the lockdown orders. The best way to get the economy back up and running is to kill the disease, and have people return to their normal life, without fear of infection (which is the real economic killer).
That's just it. You can't kill the disease. We can't even kill the flu and it's been around forever and still kills thousands. We all know of people who get a flu shot and still get the flu. Coronavirus has been around a long time and this is the novel one, a mutation, and you're not going to stamp it out by sitting at home.
Who will you look to to give you the all clear and allow us to peek out from under our rocks? The scientists?The very ones who have been dead wrong with their crappy models? How about the WHO? Yeah, there's a gang to be trusted. What scientist is going to tell you all is OK? What's in it for them to make such a proclamation? At some point you have to take a calculated risk. If you as an individual don't want to return to civilization, that's fine, but let the people who want to work and be smart about social distances and masks do so if they choose to. If you're old or vulnerable, be smart. Stay inside as much as you can.
Pretending that shuttering everybody unconditionally, no matter their age or condition; no matter where they live, is smart science or smart governance, is just foolish. If you're a Bay Area millionaire, then sure, maybe you don't care if everyone is going bust around you, but not everyone is as blessed as those on this board.
I feel you are off base on a lot of things here.
1. Yes, I trust scientists. They are the most qualified to make these decisions with the imperfect and always evolving information we have. And the modeling has not been dead wrong because we collectively took action to make them wrong (that is a good thing). Finally, the idea that the scientists working on this are doing so for selfish reasons to manipulate the situation to better themselves is ridiculous. I dont buy that for a second.
2. The world health organization is an excellent organization and should be credited with some of the greatest achievements humanity has achieved over the last 50 - 70 years. We should not discredit it. It is not a political organization, it does not have some secret plan or ambition, and they are essential in fighting a pandemic. Now more than ever it needs are support.
3. Not everyone that lives in the bay area is a millionaire, in fact a lot of us are the opposite of a millionaire. There are plenty of people suffering here, and the people that are suffering are still complying with the shelter in place orders. This isnt a class battle, everyone needs to work together.
4. So far there has been no federal enforcement of stay at home orders. Everything has been determined at the state level. Blaming the bay area for other states issuing shelter in place orders is ridiculous because they didnt make that call. That was a decision made by the local and state governments.
5. The only way to get the economy back to normal is by removing the fear of the disease by the general populace. That wont happen until the infection rate is under control. That wont happen without shelter in place.
Forgive me, but you sound a little naive.
1. You didn't mention which scientists you trust. You avoided the tough part of the question. The models have been very wrong and much of this has been exposed in the media. You didn't address the scientists who told us that wearing masks was not the correct thing for us to do. You know this is a fact. They lied to us for reasons they haven't disclosed. Do you even wonder why or have you convinced yourself that it was for our own good?
2. The head of the WHO is a scoundrel and you know it. Again, you're refusing to talk in specifics. It has been shown that he ignored data from Taiwan that would have saved countless lives from coronavirus. He did this because China would not allow him to give credit to what they consider to be a rogue province. This is not disputed, even in the liberal media. Why don't you address this specifically instead of talking about the WHO of days gone by in glowing terms?
3. Agreed, not everyone in the Bay Area is a millionaire. But it's pretty certain that the majority on this board are very well off and you'll get that drift if you've been posting here for awhile. Nothing wrong with that, but even a Berkeley scholar doesn't necessarily know what's best for someone living in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. Do you agree there's no one-size-fits-all approach?
4. You are correct. I'm not blaming the Bay Area for anything. I'm saying that the thinking that what's right for one area is right for the next is incorrect. Should the farmer in Michigan be under the same restrictions as someone in Manhattan? Please.
5. Again, who will stand up and raise the flag signaling the "all clear"? It won't happen that way. No politician, except for maybe crazy Trump, is going to take that risk. It's not worth it to them. At best, under public pressure, they will dip their toes into the water and see how it goes, raising restrictions as they see fit. Waiting for everyone to gain a certain comfort level not only will never happen, but there will be only remnants of the life that you used to have if you wait that long. There won't be very much to return to. You see the dilemma?
Let me go back to the source material.
Quote:
Who will you look to to give you the all clear and allow us to peek out from under our rocks? The scientists?
As I said previously, yes, the scientists. No where in your original statement did you ask for which scientists I trust. You referred to them as a group, so I referred to them as a group, I'm not dodging anything.
As for the scientists recommending the masks, their logic hasn't changed. What they said at the beginning is that, 'you don't need a mask because they don't prevent you from getting sick, they prevent you from transmitting the disease'. Now they are say 'Wear the mask because you might transmit the disease'. The logic has stayed consistent in that they don't prevent you from getting infected, they prevent you from spreading it. What has changed is the circumstances and prevalence of the disease, personally I want my expert advice to address the most current situation.
Ultimately, I accept the fact that the scientists made decisions based on limited and constantly changing information, in hindsight there might have been better decisions they could have made, but they were still the most qualified people to make them at the time, and the models were the best information we had at the time.
Regarding the WHO, again you accuse me of not talking specifics as if your statement somehow compelled them, it didn't. You asked who I trust to let me know when its safe to stop social distancing, and I trust the World Health Organization, and this discrediting of the organization and everyone that works there is worrying.
But really, my biggest contention is when you said, "What's in it for them to make such a proclamation? " in reference to the WHO and scientists, and I fundamentally believe the scientists and the World Health Organization is operating in good-faith. They are trying to do what is best for the health of people across the world. I don't believe they are motivated by some selfish self-interest. and that's not naivete, that is based on the people I met in the healthcare world, the people that I met that work at institutions, and my understanding of people in general (yes, I believe most people want what is best for others, and no I don't think that makes me naive). Please note, I'm not saying everyone. I'm on record at saying I think 1 out of every 20 people are jerks.
Regarding different rules for different places, I somewhat agree that every plan should be specific to the people it is accommodating, but this is also what is currently happening. All the stay at home measures have been implemented at the state and local level, hence it is the elected officials the people chose to represent them that are implementing these policies. Nobody on this board is implementing policy or restricting people's movement.
It should also be noted that if you look at a map of everywhere in the world the virus has spread, it becomes obvious that all of humanity is tied together in this. In about 4.5 months, the disease has spread to essentially every country on earth. The actions of one place will have an effect on other places, we need cooperation and collective action, not a bunch of cowboys going off on their own.
As for who will say 'All Clear'. It will be the same people that implemented the stay at home orders. The state and local governments, will make the decisions based on conversations with a variety of experts in a range of fields from health to economics to logistics.
Personally, I'm tired of the lockdown. I'm eager to go to the bars, to play soccer, to see my family, to visit the national parks and travel abroad again. I got a girl in Mexico I am dying to see again. I want this to be over as soon as possible, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop listening to who I think is able to make the most-informed decision at the time. In this case, it is my local and state government under the advisement of the experts.
