Reopen the economy?

88,856 Views | 756 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Unit2Sucks
golden sloth
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GBear4Life said:

golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

people are actually trying to argue that the SIP didn't exacerbate the recession. Amazing.


I think the difference is that if the economic output dropped by 80%, you believe sip is responsible for 50% of the drop and the virus impacting economic patterns was responsible for the other 50%, whereas other people believe the virus is responsible for 80% of the drop and the sip is responsible for the other 20%. I agree these situations require different responses, and I haven't seen anything definitive as to what the actual numbers are, but based on the articles I read and people I've met and what I've seen firsthand I think it is closer to the 80/20 split.

Ps: obviously the numbers are all hypothetical
I think flight travel still takes a huge hit regardless, but restaurants and in-town socializing don't fall off a cliff.

The SIP will impact behavior post-SIP in a way that never would have occurred if there was no SIP to begin with.
I agree with you on the flight travel, and I know I've mentioned this anecdote before, but I was at the bars the week before the pandemic, and the fivethirtyeight article reinforces it. Behavior had changed prior to shelter-in-place.

And I am speculating here, but I imagine more people changed their behavior due to witnessing duality of the New York outbreak hit and the reckless spring breakers in Florida,
bearister
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Don't let the door hit your a$$ on the way out.

https://abc7news.com/society/californians-unhappy-with-shut-down-moving-out-of-state/6177157/


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dimitrig
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bearister said:

Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.

https://abc7news.com/society/californians-unhappy-with-shut-down-moving-out-of-state/6177157/





I am liking the freeways as they are thank you very much!
BearNIt
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GBear4Life said:

golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

people are actually trying to argue that the SIP didn't exacerbate the recession. Amazing.


I think the difference is that if the economic output dropped by 80%, you believe sip is responsible for 50% of the drop and the virus impacting economic patterns was responsible for the other 50%, whereas other people believe the virus is responsible for 80% of the drop and the sip is responsible for the other 20%. I agree these situations require different responses, and I haven't seen anything definitive as to what the actual numbers are, but based on the articles I read and people I've met and what I've seen firsthand I think it is closer to the 80/20 split.

Ps: obviously the numbers are all hypothetical
I think flight travel still takes a huge hit regardless, but restaurants and in-town socializing don't fall off a cliff.

The SIP will impact behavior post-SIP in a way that never would have occurred if there was no SIP to begin with.
Having opened and run restaurants in my younger days I can tell you that there will be closures of a number of restaurants and in-town socializing will be changed forever due to the new guidelines and going forward. If you are running a restaurant at 85% capacity prior to the pandemic and now must make adjustments based on social distancing you may have 50% capacity if you are lucky. With 85% capacity, you were able to make a single-digit profit and now you are trying to make that same profit with half the clientele on any given night. Your landlord is not giving you a discount on your rent and you are running the business with half to three-quarters of the staff that you had. It doesn't look great for a business that you had to bust your ass to make a single-digit profit prior to the pandemic. The wait-staff is not making the same money as they are not turning the same number of tables they were pre-pandemic and their tips have been reduced by 50%. The kitchen staff will be cut in half because you aren't putting out as many plates on a given night and you can't afford to carry the same number of kitchen-staff.

In town socializing will be affected as space will be limited in various meeting places. Those places may now require reservations to comply with the new rules or you will have to stand outside a restaurant, bar, bakery, or any other place you go to till there is room in the establishment. Movie theaters are now using the 6-foot rule and their business is cut by 50%

Airlines will be heavily impacted as people will be frightened to fly because planes will be flying Petri dishes given the close quarters, no enforcement of mask-wearing, and the air circulation system on planes.
dimitrig
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BearNIt said:

GBear4Life said:

golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

people are actually trying to argue that the SIP didn't exacerbate the recession. Amazing.


I think the difference is that if the economic output dropped by 80%, you believe sip is responsible for 50% of the drop and the virus impacting economic patterns was responsible for the other 50%, whereas other people believe the virus is responsible for 80% of the drop and the sip is responsible for the other 20%. I agree these situations require different responses, and I haven't seen anything definitive as to what the actual numbers are, but based on the articles I read and people I've met and what I've seen firsthand I think it is closer to the 80/20 split.

Ps: obviously the numbers are all hypothetical
I think flight travel still takes a huge hit regardless, but restaurants and in-town socializing don't fall off a cliff.

The SIP will impact behavior post-SIP in a way that never would have occurred if there was no SIP to begin with.
Having opened and run restaurants in my younger days I can tell you that there will be closures of a number of restaurants and in-town socializing will be changed forever due to the new guidelines and going forward. If you are running a restaurant at 85% capacity prior to the pandemic and now must make adjustments based on social distancing you may have 50% capacity if you are lucky. With 85% capacity, you were able to make a single-digit profit and now you are trying to make that same profit with half the clientele on any given night. Your landlord is not giving you a discount on your rent and you are running the business with half to three-quarters of the staff that you had. It doesn't look great for a business that you had to bust your ass to make a single-digit profit prior to the pandemic. The wait-staff is not making the same money as they are not turning the same number of tables they were pre-pandemic and their tips have been reduced by 50%. The kitchen staff will be cut in half because you aren't putting out as many plates on a given night and you can't afford to carry the same number of kitchen-staff.

In town socializing will be affected as space will be limited in various meeting places. Those places may now require reservations to comply with the new rules or you will have to stand outside a restaurant, bar, bakery, or any other place you go to till there is room in the establishment. Movie theaters are now using the 6-foot rule and their business is cut by 50%

Airlines will be heavily impacted as people will be frightened to fly because planes will be flying Petri dishes given the close quarters, no enforcement of mask-wearing, and the air circulation system on planes.

All true, but it does depend on the restaurant. Some of the big chain-style restaurants were not doing well lately and had lots of empty tables (running at less than 50% capacity anyway). Some of them have large upstairs banquet rooms that were rarely rented. Suddenly I am much more likely to want to visit those restaurants versus a hole in the wall that had people sitting elbow to elbow. Social distancing will be pretty easy. It is interesting how the virus will help pick winners and losers in this space and in every space. Souplantation (if you are not familiar it is a make-your-own-salad type of restaurant) has already declared bankruptcy saying there is no way to make that model work. There is a local BBQ place with a lot of outdoor seating that will probably do really well.





BearGoggles
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dimitrig said:

BearNIt said:

GBear4Life said:

golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

people are actually trying to argue that the SIP didn't exacerbate the recession. Amazing.


I think the difference is that if the economic output dropped by 80%, you believe sip is responsible for 50% of the drop and the virus impacting economic patterns was responsible for the other 50%, whereas other people believe the virus is responsible for 80% of the drop and the sip is responsible for the other 20%. I agree these situations require different responses, and I haven't seen anything definitive as to what the actual numbers are, but based on the articles I read and people I've met and what I've seen firsthand I think it is closer to the 80/20 split.

Ps: obviously the numbers are all hypothetical
I think flight travel still takes a huge hit regardless, but restaurants and in-town socializing don't fall off a cliff.

The SIP will impact behavior post-SIP in a way that never would have occurred if there was no SIP to begin with.
Having opened and run restaurants in my younger days I can tell you that there will be closures of a number of restaurants and in-town socializing will be changed forever due to the new guidelines and going forward. If you are running a restaurant at 85% capacity prior to the pandemic and now must make adjustments based on social distancing you may have 50% capacity if you are lucky. With 85% capacity, you were able to make a single-digit profit and now you are trying to make that same profit with half the clientele on any given night. Your landlord is not giving you a discount on your rent and you are running the business with half to three-quarters of the staff that you had. It doesn't look great for a business that you had to bust your ass to make a single-digit profit prior to the pandemic. The wait-staff is not making the same money as they are not turning the same number of tables they were pre-pandemic and their tips have been reduced by 50%. The kitchen staff will be cut in half because you aren't putting out as many plates on a given night and you can't afford to carry the same number of kitchen-staff.

In town socializing will be affected as space will be limited in various meeting places. Those places may now require reservations to comply with the new rules or you will have to stand outside a restaurant, bar, bakery, or any other place you go to till there is room in the establishment. Movie theaters are now using the 6-foot rule and their business is cut by 50%

Airlines will be heavily impacted as people will be frightened to fly because planes will be flying Petri dishes given the close quarters, no enforcement of mask-wearing, and the air circulation system on planes.

All true, but it does depend on the restaurant. Some of the big chain-style restaurants were not doing well lately and had lots of empty tables (running at less than 50% capacity anyway). Some of them have large upstairs banquet rooms that were rarely rented. Suddenly I am much more likely to want to visit those restaurants versus a hole in the wall that had people sitting elbow to elbow. Social distancing will be pretty easy. It is interesting how the virus will help pick winners and losers in this space and in every space. Souplantation (if you are not familiar it is a make-your-own-salad type of restaurant) has already declared bankruptcy saying there is no way to make that model work. There is a local BBQ place with a lot of outdoor seating that will probably do really well.







Restaurants will go out of business. But part of the equation is landlords (and by extension, their lenders). Landlords will either reduce restaurant rents to allow business to be profitable or they will have to lease the space to other tenants. The problem is that retail landlords were already hurting (amazon). Not a lot of replacement tenants and any replacement tenant will be similarly impacted by covid limitations which limit revenue.

A cycle is coming for landlords to adjust and possibly for lenders to take back properties or offer some sort of restructuring. But that could take some time.
Big C
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BearGoggles said:

dimitrig said:

BearNIt said:

GBear4Life said:

golden sloth said:

GBear4Life said:

people are actually trying to argue that the SIP didn't exacerbate the recession. Amazing.


I think the difference is that if the economic output dropped by 80%, you believe sip is responsible for 50% of the drop and the virus impacting economic patterns was responsible for the other 50%, whereas other people believe the virus is responsible for 80% of the drop and the sip is responsible for the other 20%. I agree these situations require different responses, and I haven't seen anything definitive as to what the actual numbers are, but based on the articles I read and people I've met and what I've seen firsthand I think it is closer to the 80/20 split.

Ps: obviously the numbers are all hypothetical
I think flight travel still takes a huge hit regardless, but restaurants and in-town socializing don't fall off a cliff.

The SIP will impact behavior post-SIP in a way that never would have occurred if there was no SIP to begin with.
Having opened and run restaurants in my younger days I can tell you that there will be closures of a number of restaurants and in-town socializing will be changed forever due to the new guidelines and going forward. If you are running a restaurant at 85% capacity prior to the pandemic and now must make adjustments based on social distancing you may have 50% capacity if you are lucky. With 85% capacity, you were able to make a single-digit profit and now you are trying to make that same profit with half the clientele on any given night. Your landlord is not giving you a discount on your rent and you are running the business with half to three-quarters of the staff that you had. It doesn't look great for a business that you had to bust your ass to make a single-digit profit prior to the pandemic. The wait-staff is not making the same money as they are not turning the same number of tables they were pre-pandemic and their tips have been reduced by 50%. The kitchen staff will be cut in half because you aren't putting out as many plates on a given night and you can't afford to carry the same number of kitchen-staff.

In town socializing will be affected as space will be limited in various meeting places. Those places may now require reservations to comply with the new rules or you will have to stand outside a restaurant, bar, bakery, or any other place you go to till there is room in the establishment. Movie theaters are now using the 6-foot rule and their business is cut by 50%

Airlines will be heavily impacted as people will be frightened to fly because planes will be flying Petri dishes given the close quarters, no enforcement of mask-wearing, and the air circulation system on planes.

All true, but it does depend on the restaurant. Some of the big chain-style restaurants were not doing well lately and had lots of empty tables (running at less than 50% capacity anyway). Some of them have large upstairs banquet rooms that were rarely rented. Suddenly I am much more likely to want to visit those restaurants versus a hole in the wall that had people sitting elbow to elbow. Social distancing will be pretty easy. It is interesting how the virus will help pick winners and losers in this space and in every space. Souplantation (if you are not familiar it is a make-your-own-salad type of restaurant) has already declared bankruptcy saying there is no way to make that model work. There is a local BBQ place with a lot of outdoor seating that will probably do really well.







Restaurants will go out of business. But part of the equation is landlords (and by extension, their lenders). Landlords will either reduce restaurant rents to allow business to be profitable or they will have to lease the space to other tenants. The problem is that retail landlords were already hurting (amazon). Not a lot of replacement tenants and any replacement tenant will be similarly impacted by covid limitations which limit revenue.

A cycle is coming for landlords to adjust and possibly for lenders to take back properties or offer some sort of restructuring. But that could take some time.

We can keep the economy rolling with some creative re-purposing. Let's say there are ten places that, pre-COVID, were restaurants (A.K.A. two city blocks in San Francisco):


Restaurant "A" is able to still eke out a profit as a restaurant and they remain in business.

Restaurant "B" now becomes a mini-factory that manufactures little robots to deliver food and groceries.

Restaurant "C" produces disinfectant wipes, sprays, etc.

Restaurant "D" is the retail outlet for those disinfectant products.

Restaurant "E" manufactures and sells fashion masks.

Restaurant "F" produces little robots that wander the streets, identifying people without masks and shaming them.

Restaurant "G" still looks like a restaurant, but in the back, they are making hydroxychloraquine and delivering it.

Restaurant "H" still looks like a restaurant, but with very few patrons. It is actually a magnet for govt. bail-out money and a money laundering operation for Restaurant "G".

(btw, restaurants like "G" and "H" are surprisingly ubiquitous)

Restaurant "I" makes and sells protest signs, toilet paper and syringes pre-loaded with disinfectant.

Restaurant "J" manufactures little robots that come to our homes and tutor our kids, augmenting their distance learning.


As you see, the possibilities are endless. We are seeing that there are some things that the U.S. is just not good at, but adapting and thriving should not be one of them.

dimitrig
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Subject: COVID-19 Is Also a Reallocation Shock

I am not going to treat ANYTHING as gospel, because even academics can get things wrong, but this is a really nice paper from UChicago about how the economy MIGHT respond going forward. I do not agree with all of the conclusions, but they have done a good job of digging up both current and past data and presenting it in one place. One argument they make is that these bailouts are only making things worse by delaying the inevitable and preventing quick and efficient reallocation of resources, instead propping up marginal companies and product lines that were doomed to fail anyway. They predict that for every 10 jobs lost there will be 3 new hires and estimate that 42 percent of recent layoffs will result in permanent job loss.

Here are some quotes from the paper I thought were worth passing along but it is overall a good read written at the level of a layperson.

"If we are correct that many of the lost jobs are gone for good, there are important implications for policy. First, policy efforts to preserve all pre-COVID jobsand employment relationships could prove quite costly, if pursued. They are analogous to policies that prop up dying industries and failing firms. These policies are feasible, but the cost is high in terms of resource misallocation and taxpayer burden. Second, there are potentially large benefits of policies and policy reforms that facilitate a speedy reallocation of jobs, workers, and capital to newly productive uses in the wake of the pandemic. Policies that deter or slow factor reallocation are likely to further lengthen the lag of creation behind destruction, slowing the overall recovery from the pandemic, the lockdown, and the pandemic-induced reallocation shock."

"In other words, the PPP creates financial incentives to keep workers engaged in businesses that cannot succeed beyond the duration of government subsidies, and to postpone their redeployment to viable businesses."

"The data analytics firm, Earnest Research, tracked credit card and debit card purchases for nearly six million Americans to assess the impact of the COVID-19 shock on consumer spending. For the week ending 1 April 2020, their data show that spending on airlines, hotels, rental cars, taxis, ride sharing and movie theaters is down 75-95 percent relative to spending in 2019 (Leatherby and Gelles, 2020). Spending on fast food, auto parts, and autos is down 35 percent, and spending on apparel is down 70 percent. At the same time, spending on home improvement, video streaming, gaming, food delivery, meal kits, and online grocers has boomed. The bulk of these spending cuts and shifts will reverse when the pandemic recedes and the lockdown ends, but some aspects of the shift arelikely to persist."

"According to a survey conducted by the National Restaurant Association in late March, 3 percent of restaurant owners and operators have permanently closed in response to COVID-19, and another 11 percent anticipate permanently closing within the next 30 days (Taylor, 2020). Applying these figures to the number of U.S. restaurants yields more than 100,000 permanent restaurant closures in the near-term wake of the COVID-19 shock."

"The results [...] say that firms expect the coronavirus pandemic to lower their sales by 18-19 percent in 2020. This is an enormous negative shock, and it is morethan twice as large as the fall from January to April 2020 in the average one-year sales forecast. Taken together ,the evidence [...] says that firms in the SBU anticipate a huge negative shock to their sales in 2020 followed by a considerable but highly incomplete bounce back by April 2021.

"Even with a vaccine in hand, consumer and business spending won't fully revert to pre-pandemic patterns. Concerns about infectious disease will linger. Millions of households are learning how to purchase almost anything online, and many will stick with it. Business people are learning how to travel less. Much of the shift in spending patterns and business practices will persist."

Source: https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/BFI_WP_202059.pdf

First author is "an Assistant Professor of Finance at Instituto Tecnolgico Autnomo de Mxico (ITAM) Business School. In June 2019, he obtained his PhD in Economics from Stanford University." Second author is Professor of Economics, Stanford University. Third author is also an Economics Professor.

bearister
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....and then there is Rush;

Limbaugh: Next Four Months Will Be War Like You've Never Seen, Dems Will Try To Keep Economy Shut Down | Video | RealClearPolitics


https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/05/12/limbaugh_democrats_will_do_their_best_to_keep_economy_shut_down_just_to_ensure_that_trump_loses.html
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bearister
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Coronavirus cases aren't surging in high-risk states - Axios


https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-map-high-risk-states-8ceeaa05-cc07-4e8b-b9f4-df3a3315f143.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top
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Unit2Sucks
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bearister said:

Coronavirus cases aren't surging in high-risk states - Axios


https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-map-high-risk-states-8ceeaa05-cc07-4e8b-b9f4-df3a3315f143.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top
It's a good trend! Perhaps wearing masks and other measures are effective enough to allow reopening without increasing infection. Or maybe the heat really is helping prevent the spread. It's pretty much a nationwide experiment so we will all be able to learn from places that do particularly well, or particularly poorly, based on the different mitigation measures in place. Unfortunately, there is quite a lag with this disease so we are always really looking at infections that were seeded weeks ago.
LMK5
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The truth lies somewhere between CNN and Fox.
Unit2Sucks
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LMK5 said:

As of today, in Arizona you can lawfully do the following:
--Elective surgeries (as of May 1)
--Visit a retail store (as of May 4)
--Get a haircut (as of May 8)
--Go to a restaurant (as of May 11)
--Go to a pool, fitness center, or gym (as of today)
--Buy gas for $1 less per gallon (always been that way)

Anybody slightly jealous besides me?
I'm so down for elective surgery.

Seriously though, I think we need to bring back most health care services now that we have a better sense as to our ability to protect the health care sector from being overwhelmed. If that were to change, we could always flip back but right now it seems unnecessary. I hope that California and other states open up health care as soon as possible.

I would put going to a pool / beach as next on my list of things that don't seem that dangerous. I would have felt comfortable continuing taking my kids to their swim lessons during the shutdown, if it were available. I could be wrong about that, but it didn't seem like it had the same level of risk as a gym or restaurant.
bearister
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I'm a swimmer. My concern is not getting the virus in the water (because chlorine should kill it) but from droplets in aerosols (before they float down into the water)from swimmers exhaling that are sharing a lane with you or in the next lane. Social distance rules applied to swimming in pools would most likely take care of that....maybe.
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Unit2Sucks
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bearister said:

I'm a swimmer. My concern is not getting the virus in the water (because chlorine should kill it) but from droplets in aerosols (before they float down into the water)from swimmers exhaling that are sharing a lane with you or in the next lane. Social distance rules applied to swimming in pools would most likely take care of that....maybe.
You don't swim with a mask? Bro, do you even waterboard?
sycasey
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I would be entirely willing to go get a haircut, so long as the salon/barbershop was sanitizing everything, people wore masks, etc.

I personally don't see a lot of risk in these kinds of one-off business transactions. By far my greatest potential exposure to infection was riding public transit to the office every day, which is something I probably still wouldn't be doing even with this other stuff reopened.
golden sloth
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bearister said:

Don't let the door hit your a$$ on the way out.

https://abc7news.com/society/californians-unhappy-with-shut-down-moving-out-of-state/6177157/





This is just a reiteration of the California is dying articles that come out every year. It's nothing new.
bearister
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When you use the Marine clipper setting of 1.5, your wife or significant other is your new barber for life...minus the Playboys, naturally.
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dimitrig
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Wuhan is locked down again:

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-renews-lockdowns-after-coronavirus-reported-in-wuhan-and-shulan-2020-5

https://news.yahoo.com/wuhan-reopened-last-month-now-191224332.html

17 new cases and China is in totalitarian mode. That's just a "Weekend in LA."

Given what we now know about the virus why do they still seem so afraid of it?
BearGoggles
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bearister said:

Coronavirus cases aren't surging in high-risk states - Axios


https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-map-high-risk-states-8ceeaa05-cc07-4e8b-b9f4-df3a3315f143.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top

This article/link supports reopening (which as you know, I'm in favor of), but the numbers seem to be unreliable. Measuring cases over a 7 day average is not a proper metric unless you correct for changes in testing during that period. Obviously, the number of reported cases is strongly correlated to the number of tests. I suspect CA is showing more cases because of increased testing.

If we knew that testing was constant or increasing in all states (which could be the case), then the numbers would have more significance. Hopefully that is the case.



BearlyCareAnymore
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BearGoggles said:

bearister said:

Coronavirus cases aren't surging in high-risk states - Axios


https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-map-high-risk-states-8ceeaa05-cc07-4e8b-b9f4-df3a3315f143.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top

This article/link supports reopening (which as you know, I'm in favor of), but the numbers seem to be unreliable. Measuring cases over a 7 day average is not a proper metric unless you correct for changes in testing during that period. Obviously, the number of reported cases is strongly correlated to the number of tests. I suspect CA is showing more cases because of increased testing.

If we knew that testing was constant or increasing in all states (which could be the case), then the numbers would have more significance. Hopefully that is the case.




Another problem is the notion that there would be any meaningful uptick yet. Everyone is in a hurry for data, but if their policies were going to create an increase, it would take weeks to show itself, not days. And, you'd also want to track actual behavior to see the extent new policies lead to "risky" behavior.

And the flip side of the coin is what the economic benefit is to such policies. That will take weeks to determine as well.
bearister
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May God bless these great American patriots!




*My heroes have always been cowboys.... that BRING DA RUCKUS!
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LMK5
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bearister said:

May God bless these great American patriots!




*My heroes have always been cowboys.... that BRING DA RUCKUS!

You seem to be the resident gun nut LOL.
The truth lies somewhere between CNN and Fox.
Anarchistbear
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bearister said:

May God bless these great American patriots!




*My heroes have always been cowboys.... that BRING DA RUCKUS!



If Elon Mush had done this instead of twittering he'd be a lot more fun.
bearister
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LMK5 said:

bearister said:

May God bless these great American patriots!




*My heroes have always been cowboys.... that BRING DA RUCKUS!

You seem to be the resident gun nut LOL.

No, I'm just a wannabe fanboy. Bearswiins actually has knowledge on the subject. I'm sure he could give you specs on that .50 cal and rocket launcher. blueblood was a paratrooper so he knows stuff too.
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Unit2Sucks
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BearGoggles said:

bearister said:

Coronavirus cases aren't surging in high-risk states - Axios


https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-map-high-risk-states-8ceeaa05-cc07-4e8b-b9f4-df3a3315f143.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top

This article/link supports reopening (which as you know, I'm in favor of), but the numbers seem to be unreliable. Measuring cases over a 7 day average is not a proper metric unless you correct for changes in testing during that period. Obviously, the number of reported cases is strongly correlated to the number of tests. I suspect CA is showing more cases because of increased testing.

If we knew that testing was constant or increasing in all states (which could be the case), then the numbers would have more significance. Hopefully that is the case.

Curious as to what specific basis you have for this belief. The LA Times has a nice page showing county level growth (among a number of other things), and it appears that LA county is growing more quickly than other places and that this is driving the growth statewide. When I look at the historical data, it appears that the daily positive test rate has been fairly consistent the past few weeks, which would indicate that the testing is increasing more or less proportional to the number of infected.

I would like to think that the spread of the virus is slowing throughout the state, the way it appears to be in the bay area, but I don't have a strong basis to do so. If you have such a basis, I would love to hear it.

Here's the county by county chart I mentioned:


And additional data for every county with more than 1k cases:
bearister
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...Texas opened up 2 weeks ago and today set a PB for COVID 19 per day deaths.
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hanky1
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Oops

Could COVID-19 be less lethal than we thought?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-could-covid-19-be-less-dangerous-than-we-thought/
sycasey
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This is an interesting development:

Berkeley Will Fully Close Its Streets to Create Giant Outdoor Dining Rooms
Unit2Sucks
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hanky1 said:

Oops

Could COVID-19 be less lethal than we thought?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-could-covid-19-be-less-dangerous-than-we-thought/

First sentence in the link:

Quote:

When I was collecting data for my PhD thesis in epidemiology at the University of Oxford,


According to janky:

Quote:

Epidemiology is not a science. And I say this as a PhD scientist.

Oops.

Stanford's bogus serological survey now has a whistleblower. Oops.

Iowa not having a SIP order may have increased cases. Oops.

Being a ****poster like janky is exactly as easy as you would imagine. Oops.
BearGoggles
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Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:

bearister said:

Coronavirus cases aren't surging in high-risk states - Axios


https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-map-high-risk-states-8ceeaa05-cc07-4e8b-b9f4-df3a3315f143.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top

This article/link supports reopening (which as you know, I'm in favor of), but the numbers seem to be unreliable. Measuring cases over a 7 day average is not a proper metric unless you correct for changes in testing during that period. Obviously, the number of reported cases is strongly correlated to the number of tests. I suspect CA is showing more cases because of increased testing.

If we knew that testing was constant or increasing in all states (which could be the case), then the numbers would have more significance. Hopefully that is the case.

Curious as to what specific basis you have for this belief. The LA Times has a nice page showing county level growth (among a number of other things), and it appears that LA county is growing more quickly than other places and that this is driving the growth statewide. When I look at the historical data, it appears that the daily positive test rate has been fairly consistent the past few weeks, which would indicate that the testing is increasing more or less proportional to the number of infected.

I would like to think that the spread of the virus is slowing throughout the state, the way it appears to be in the bay area, but I don't have a strong basis to do so. If you have such a basis, I would love to hear it.

Here's the county by county chart I mentioned:


And additional data for every county with more than 1k cases:

Nothing you posted shows the positive test rate/percentage per 1,000 tests (or similar) or, for that matter indicates who is being tested. That info might be backed out if I was willing to take the time - which I'm not. There is a potential (likelihood) of selection bias since the tests are not being administered randomly.

Measuring gross positive test results is one of the worst metrics we have unless we have some assurance that the same quantity and type of people are being tested each day over time.

At this point, absent randomized testing, the least bad metrics we have are changes in the number of deaths and hospitalizations. However, those metrics are not very good because the categorization of deaths is inconsistent. Hospitalizations might be the best metric if you assume treatment has not improved materially.

I specifically said the data presented was not helpful. Why are you asking me to provide data showing that the spread has slowed when I specifically said: (i) the data presented doesn't show that; and (ii) made no such claim?

The only thing that seems readily apparent is that in CA, hospitals have not been overrun and and there is no threat that they will be (with the possible exception of a few hospitals in LA, though I haven't seen reports of that). We flattened the curve which is what we were originally told the purpose of SIP was.

Unit2Sucks
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BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:

bearister said:

Coronavirus cases aren't surging in high-risk states - Axios


https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-map-high-risk-states-8ceeaa05-cc07-4e8b-b9f4-df3a3315f143.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top

This article/link supports reopening (which as you know, I'm in favor of), but the numbers seem to be unreliable. Measuring cases over a 7 day average is not a proper metric unless you correct for changes in testing during that period. Obviously, the number of reported cases is strongly correlated to the number of tests. I suspect CA is showing more cases because of increased testing.

If we knew that testing was constant or increasing in all states (which could be the case), then the numbers would have more significance. Hopefully that is the case.

Curious as to what specific basis you have for this belief. The LA Times has a nice page showing county level growth (among a number of other things), and it appears that LA county is growing more quickly than other places and that this is driving the growth statewide. When I look at the historical data, it appears that the daily positive test rate has been fairly consistent the past few weeks, which would indicate that the testing is increasing more or less proportional to the number of infected.

I would like to think that the spread of the virus is slowing throughout the state, the way it appears to be in the bay area, but I don't have a strong basis to do so. If you have such a basis, I would love to hear it.

Here's the county by county chart I mentioned:


And additional data for every county with more than 1k cases:

Nothing you posted shows the positive test rate/percentage per 1,000 tests (or similar) or, for that matter indicates who is being tested. That info might be backed out if I was willing to take the time - which I'm not. There is a potential (likelihood) of selection bias since the tests are not being administered randomly.


I provided a link to which you could determine the daily positive rate. I've calculated it and it's within a fairly narrow band for the last few weeks. Rather than do the math (which is quite simple), you prefer to just assume that you are correct without inspection.

What this amply demonstrates is that you are more interested in asserting a narrative than actually obtaining the truth. Everyone can "just ask questions" to push whatever narrative they are interested in pursuing and you consistently do so while ignoring people who present data that confounds your preferred narrative.

You've mentioned a few different types of data that might be valuable, concluded that they wouldn't be perfect and then assumed that the narrative you've chosen is probably right because no reasons.

For everyone keeping score at home, this is yet another example of BG pushing an unsupported theory that allows him to make a baseless claim and manage to insult anyone who is actually interested in having a conversation based on facts and data.

With people like this pushing the "we must open now" narrative, is there any wonder that people who care about doing the right thing are urging caution?
BearGoggles
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Unit2Sucks said:


Oops.

Stanford's bogus serological survey now has a whistleblower. Oops.

Iowa not having a SIP order may have increased cases. Oops.

Being a ****poster like janky is exactly as easy as you would imagine. Oops.

Breaking news - absence of SIP policies increases spread. And water is wet. And smoking causes cancer.

No one has claimed SIP doesn't reduce spread in general (not necessarily as well as originally though in enclosed confinement). Is Iowa being overrun? It has one of the lowest death rates per 1,000. Maybe they made the in hindsight correct decision that they could flatten the curve (or at least not exceed medical resources) without SIP?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/

Unit2Sucks
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BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:


Oops.

Stanford's bogus serological survey now has a whistleblower. Oops.

Iowa not having a SIP order may have increased cases. Oops.

Being a ****poster like janky is exactly as easy as you would imagine. Oops.

Breaking news - absence of SIP policies increases spread. And water is wet. And smoking causes cancer.

No one has claimed SIP doesn't reduce spread in general (not necessarily as well as originally though in enclosed confinement). Is Iowa being overrun? It has one of the lowest death rates per 1,000. Maybe they made the in hindsight correct decision that they could flatten the curve (or at least not exceed medical resources) without SIP?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/


LOL, did you not pick up on the "oops" narrative that janky has embarked on? I thought it was pretty clear what I was doing ...
GBear4Life
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Observing a state having an increased number of cases without SIP than with it is a logical inevitability, not an argument that supports SIP.

SIP was implemented to slow the spread in order to not exhaust healthcare resources that would lead to turning away old sick people like they did in Italy. Period. Full stop. Not to to change the area underneath the curve. Not to save you or me. Not to "save every life at all costs". All you heard for a month was flattening the curve, and "we need more hospital beds". There was a considerable consensus on this, or at least considerable number were acquiescing the SIP.

When this reason no longer holds up, the sophists of BI lost their only reputable justification for SIP and had to resort to increasingly specious reasoning, obvious misdirection, deflections and ignoring the central questions and points with motives only they truly know.

Their greatest hits of irrelevant observations and facts, :

"There will be a surge in infections if you lift SIP".
"You must care about money more than people"
"If you lift SIP too soon, we might just have to have another round of SIP"
"The economy won't be 100% anyways"
"A lot of people are still going to voluntarily SIP"
"Don't you care about grandma and grandpa?"
"Did you know COVID adversely affects blacks?"
"If you lift SIP, people will actually have to go to work right now. Why would you want people working under these conditions?"

You hear frequent appeals to # of cases reported even though they know the significance of low #s indicates a slower rate by which the virus will spread and surge post SIP. Most of the effectiveness of SIP can be accomplished with reasonable and mindful restrictions and precautions.

 
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