Cal88 said:

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It's like some people are just discovering that corporations, even tech corporations, can be a bit cutthroat and lay off workers en masse... Does a glorified message board like Twitter need 7,500 employees with an average salary of $100k?

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Yeah, it's hilarious that a certified genius like Musk would pay $44,000,000,000.00 for a glorified message board.

tequila4kapp said:

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It reads to me like Musk is an inconsistent and egomaniacal executive trying to simultaneously revolutionize the culture and products of an extremely large corporation, and do it in a short period of time.

It also reads to me like the company was bloated and its employees accustomed to a soft working environment; those employees are now bristling at the imposition of employment conditions that exist in many/most corporations throughout the world.

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Question for the business experts - if you spent $44B on a bloated company, would you do everything you could to ensure the best employees left right away or would you want to trim the fat? Based on what I'm seeing, Elno has caused a massive exodus of the best talent at Twitter. What he's left with is low-talent political (business politics, not electoral) employees who see this as an opportunity to thrive with all of the strong performers leaving.

Everywhere I've been that's had a RIF has been concerned that good people would leave for greener pastures as a result of the perceived weakness or instability. Elno is doing everything he can to make that happen. That doesn't feel like a recipe for success.

tequila4kapp said:

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It reads to me like Musk is an inconsistent and egomaniacal executive trying to simultaneously revolutionize the culture and products of an extremely large corporation, and do it in a short period of time.

It also reads to me like the company was bloated and its employees accustomed to a soft working environment; those employees are now bristling at the imposition of employment conditions that exist in many/most corporations throughout the world.

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From my experience in corporate offices in America, the people who tend to work the longest hours are the least productive. Wasting time chatting or perseverating long into the night on non-substantive issues. Bosses who don't want to go home and just keep asking subordinates questions until they wear out. Or burnout cultures where the gameplan is to understaff, wear people down, and have high turnover. Good people have options and know when their time is being wasted or they are being under-resource to do a job.

This may not be the case in certain sectors (finance, legal, even tech) but I think it is the case in most corporate offices in America.

Musk wants to change the culture at Twitter, and reinstill a tech culture there. The best coders and engineers are driven workaholics. What someone wrote a few posts above about workaholics generally being inefficient and promoting a toxic workspace is largely true in managerial positions, but it isn`t true among technical staff. The best of these have virtually no life outside their work, and that`s perfectly alright with them.

As well, among this tech culture, there are far more workers who don`t like being constrained by a pervasive woke culture than people who are liberal zealots. There are a lot more James Damores (guy who was fired from Google for writing a long memo on gender dynamics in the tech workplace) in the top engineering circles than Yao Yues (woman who was recently fired from Twitter), so Twitter will be a magnet for the former types.

The other issue is that many big tech companies, especially those that are public content-driven spaces like Twitter, FB or Reddit have become excessively politicized, stifling and distorting free speech with bots, dynamic bans and algorithm manipulation. The political culture that has been enshrined into Twitter is hostile to someone like Musk who is more of a freethinking independent, so what we`re seeing now is him turning Twitter into a culture that is more like that of a normal, less politicized tech-driven startup from the 90s or 00s.

Cal88 said:

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Musk wants to change the culture at Twitter, and reinstill a tech culture there. The best coders and engineers are driven workaholics. What someone wrote a few posts above about workaholics generally being inefficient and promoting a toxic workspace is largely true in managerial positions, but it isn`t true among technical staff. The best of these have virtually no life outside their work, and that`s perfectly alright with them.

As well, among this tech culture, there are far more workers who don`t like being constrained by a pervasive woke culture than people who are liberal zealots. There are a lot more James Damores (guy who was fired from Google for writing a long memo on gender dynamics in the tech workplace) in the top engineering circles than Yao Yues (woman who was recently fired from Twitter), so Twitter will be a magnet for the former types.

The other issue is that many big tech companies, especially those that are public content-driven spaces like Twitter, FB or Reddit have become excessively politicized, stifling and distorting free speech with bots, dynamic bans and algorithm manipulation. The political culture that has been enshrined into Twitter is hostile to someone like Musk who is more of a freethinking independent, so what we`re seeing now is him turning Twitter into a culture that is more like that of a normal, less politicized tech-driven startup from the 90s or 00s.

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Couple of things you are missing. If you are a workaholics, top tier coder, why work at an oppressive culture at Twitter as opposed to overworking at Google? It isn't as if Twitter is some amazing platform or amazing coding opportunity.

Any do you think Twitter, FB or Reddit became politicized because of the leaders or because of the demands of the work force and investors?

Cal88 said:

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someone like Musk who is more of a freethinking independent, so what we`re seeing now is him turning Twitter into a culture that is more like that of a normal, less politicized tech-driven startup from the 90s or 00s.

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LOL, no he's not. He's banning accounts that make fun of him. As with many people, his vision of "free speech" is to allow the speech he likes.

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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someone like Musk who is more of a freethinking independent, so what we`re seeing now is him turning Twitter into a culture that is more like that of a normal, less politicized tech-driven startup from the 90s or 00s.

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LOL, no he's not. He's banning accounts that make fun of him. As with many people, his vision of "free speech" is to allow the speech he likes.

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If that`s the extent of the new censorship policy, banning those that make fun of him, as opposed to a much broader and prevalent censorship policy actively curtailing political speech from the right or non-woke center through algorithm manipulation, shadow bans or outright bans enforced by a legion of overpaid year zero digital hall monitors, then that would be a huge improvement as far as free speech.

He`s in the midst of an organized, open rebellion against him by a kernel within his workforce, allied with the woke establishment and is in the process of cleaning up. This group is bent on undermining his leadership at Twitter, hence his response. I think he will probably relax his policy once he has control over his organization as the owner/CEO.

I can't believe I'm saying this but Cal88's hot takes on Twitter and technology companies are even less reliable than the Kremlin propaganda that he amplifies for the Ukraine war.

Twitter may be strong enough to survive regardless of all the damage Musk is doing (heck, it survived years of Dorsey's neglect), but they are hemorrhaging talent right now and no one is rushing to go there. Now that Elno has said that people can quit and take severance - I would expect good people to run even faster for the exits.

I'm sure Twitter will do great when it hires anti-woke engineers who spend their time writing idiotic self-affirming memos rather than actually shipping product. I mean, if Twitter were hiring, which it isn't.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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someone like Musk who is more of a freethinking independent, so what we`re seeing now is him turning Twitter into a culture that is more like that of a normal, less politicized tech-driven startup from the 90s or 00s.

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LOL, no he's not. He's banning accounts that make fun of him. As with many people, his vision of "free speech" is to allow the speech he likes.

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If that`s the extent of the new censorship policy, banning those that make fun of him, as opposed to a much broader and prevalent censorship policy actively curtailing political speech from the right or non-woke center through algorithm manipulation, shadow bans or outright bans enforced by a legion of overpaid year zero digital hall monitors, then that would be a huge improvement as far as free speech.

He`s in the midst of an organized, open rebellion against him by a kernel within his workforce, allied with the woke establishment and is in the process of cleaning up. This group is bent on undermining his leadership at Twitter, hence his response. I think he will probably relax his policy once he has control over his organization as the owner/CEO.

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Yes, I'm sure Elon will only stop there. No reason to think otherwise.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised at this point that you like your strongmen.

calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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Musk wants to change the culture at Twitter, and reinstill a tech culture there. The best coders and engineers are driven workaholics. What someone wrote a few posts above about workaholics generally being inefficient and promoting a toxic workspace is largely true in managerial positions, but it isn`t true among technical staff. The best of these have virtually no life outside their work, and that`s perfectly alright with them.

As well, among this tech culture, there are far more workers who don`t like being constrained by a pervasive woke culture than people who are liberal zealots. There are a lot more James Damores (guy who was fired from Google for writing a long memo on gender dynamics in the tech workplace) in the top engineering circles than Yao Yues (woman who was recently fired from Twitter), so Twitter will be a magnet for the former types.

The other issue is that many big tech companies, especially those that are public content-driven spaces like Twitter, FB or Reddit have become excessively politicized, stifling and distorting free speech with bots, dynamic bans and algorithm manipulation. The political culture that has been enshrined into Twitter is hostile to someone like Musk who is more of a freethinking independent, so what we`re seeing now is him turning Twitter into a culture that is more like that of a normal, less politicized tech-driven startup from the 90s or 00s.

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Couple of things you are missing. If you are a workaholics, top tier coder, why work at an oppressive culture at Twitter as opposed to overworking at Google? It isn't as if Twitter is some amazing platform or amazing coding opportunity.

Any do you think Twitter, FB or Reddit became politicized because of the leaders or because of the demands of the work force and investors?

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What do you think constitutes an oppressive work environment is for a top coder? It`s overbearing HR commissars, passive aggressive managers who get on their case over language, or having to sit through sensitivity training seminars as a result of some perceived microaggression by a zoomer project mgr or assistant. Most coders identify a lot more with Musk than Vijaya Gadde or any of the Twitter mgrs who got fired.

The main reason Twitter, FB etc became politicized is because they are dominated by non-technical people from the Bay Area, who tend to be very liberal. These organizations have morphed from a culture of tech startups into something that is more like that of a liberal NGO.

Also, there has been a huge influx into the industry of liberal arts grad types who have gone to coding camps or night school to take advantage of high salaries. A few years ago I was building an app and looked to hire product mgrs, there were 24yo kids from NYU or Brown with BAs and a 6-mo coding camp who were asking for $125K, they had none of the fundamental technical skills to do the job and knew less about computer science than a 16yo future CS student. These workers tend to be excessively politicized, have a very high sense of entitlement and a relatively poor work ethic, whereas the culture at CS/engineering depts in academia is completely different - male-dominated, nose to the grindstone and not very politicized; not much of a life outside of work.

Cal88 said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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Musk wants to change the culture at Twitter, and reinstill a tech culture there. The best coders and engineers are driven workaholics. What someone wrote a few posts above about workaholics generally being inefficient and promoting a toxic workspace is largely true in managerial positions, but it isn`t true among technical staff. The best of these have virtually no life outside their work, and that`s perfectly alright with them.

As well, among this tech culture, there are far more workers who don`t like being constrained by a pervasive woke culture than people who are liberal zealots. There are a lot more James Damores (guy who was fired from Google for writing a long memo on gender dynamics in the tech workplace) in the top engineering circles than Yao Yues (woman who was recently fired from Twitter), so Twitter will be a magnet for the former types.

The other issue is that many big tech companies, especially those that are public content-driven spaces like Twitter, FB or Reddit have become excessively politicized, stifling and distorting free speech with bots, dynamic bans and algorithm manipulation. The political culture that has been enshrined into Twitter is hostile to someone like Musk who is more of a freethinking independent, so what we`re seeing now is him turning Twitter into a culture that is more like that of a normal, less politicized tech-driven startup from the 90s or 00s.

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Couple of things you are missing. If you are a workaholics, top tier coder, why work at an oppressive culture at Twitter as opposed to overworking at Google? It isn't as if Twitter is some amazing platform or amazing coding opportunity.

Any do you think Twitter, FB or Reddit became politicized because of the leaders or because of the demands of the work force and investors?

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What do you think constitutes an oppressive work environment is for a top coder? It`s overbearing HR commissars, passive aggressive managers who get on their case over language, or having to sit through sensitivity training seminars as a result of some perceived microaggression by a zoomer project mgr or assistant. Most coders identify a lot more with Musk than Vijaya Gadde or any of the Twitter mgrs who got fired.

The main reason Twitter, FB etc became politicized is because they are dominated by non-technical people from the Bay Area, who tend to be very liberal. These organizations have morphed from a culture of tech startups into something that is more like that of a liberal NGO.

Also, there has been a huge influx into the industry of liberal arts grad types who have gone to coding camps or night school to take advantage of high salaries. A few years ago I was building an app and looked to hire product mgrs, there were 24yo kids from NYU or Brown with BAs and a 6-mo coding camp who were asking for $125K, they had none of the fundamental technical skills to do the job and knew less about computer science than a 16yo future CS student. These workers tend to be excessively politicized, have a very high sense of entitlement and a relatively poor work ethic, whereas the culture at CS/engineering depts in academia is completely different - male-dominated, nose to the grindstone and not very politicized; not much of a life outside of work.

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My senior management experience does not align with your view. I would have to question when you were in the C-Suite and what industry because things may have changed since you were in executive officer role.

In my experience, the top talent engineers and data scientists were very high maintenance and they would not have appreciated the ultimatums, threats, and demands from a dictator at a dying company. We will see what the attrition rate is at Twitter among the engineers.

Also, even when I was overseeing our CSR report as the CLO, I was focused on not only the investors and private ordering but also our employee base as well as recruits. Most employees at tech companies, especially with Gen Z employees, are focused on company reputation. The top talent and top recruits focus on whether the company supported the values they support. That puts companies in a tough place, but not sure when your experience was because, even when I was an executive officer and we discussed these matters during strategy sessions, this was an important point for recruiting. I suspect it has only been accelerated during the last 5 years or so.

And if you think a recent grad from night school could replace a top engineering talent, I have to question when you were in senior leadership. Was it this decade? Things have changed. What I have always emphasized to companies when we were investing was that the top 1% to 10% of the engineering and AI/data scientists add almost all of the value. They will be recruited during the highs and lows while the remainder get paid like top talent only during boom period. A company that is successful identifies and keeps and motivates the 10%.

Shocking that your management and practical experiences are so different from my experiences. Anyone else with senior executive role at a tech company have a view because it seems like two posters both with senior leadership experience have completely different takes.

Cal88 said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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Musk wants to change the culture at Twitter, and reinstill a tech culture there. The best coders and engineers are driven workaholics. What someone wrote a few posts above about workaholics generally being inefficient and promoting a toxic workspace is largely true in managerial positions, but it isn`t true among technical staff. The best of these have virtually no life outside their work, and that`s perfectly alright with them.

As well, among this tech culture, there are far more workers who don`t like being constrained by a pervasive woke culture than people who are liberal zealots. There are a lot more James Damores (guy who was fired from Google for writing a long memo on gender dynamics in the tech workplace) in the top engineering circles than Yao Yues (woman who was recently fired from Twitter), so Twitter will be a magnet for the former types.

The other issue is that many big tech companies, especially those that are public content-driven spaces like Twitter, FB or Reddit have become excessively politicized, stifling and distorting free speech with bots, dynamic bans and algorithm manipulation. The political culture that has been enshrined into Twitter is hostile to someone like Musk who is more of a freethinking independent, so what we`re seeing now is him turning Twitter into a culture that is more like that of a normal, less politicized tech-driven startup from the 90s or 00s.

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Couple of things you are missing. If you are a workaholics, top tier coder, why work at an oppressive culture at Twitter as opposed to overworking at Google? It isn't as if Twitter is some amazing platform or amazing coding opportunity.

Any do you think Twitter, FB or Reddit became politicized because of the leaders or because of the demands of the work force and investors?

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What do you think constitutes an oppressive work environment is for a top coder? It`s overbearing HR commissars, passive aggressive managers who get on their case over language, or having to sit through sensitivity training seminars as a result of some perceived microaggression by a zoomer project mgr or assistant. Most coders identify a lot more with Musk than Vijaya Gadde or any of the Twitter mgrs who got fired.

The main reason Twitter, FB etc became politicized is because they are dominated by non-technical people from the Bay Area, who tend to be very liberal. These organizations have morphed from a culture of tech startups into something that is more like that of a liberal NGO.

Also, there has been a huge influx into the industry of liberal arts grad types who have gone to coding camps or night school to take advantage of high salaries. A few years ago I was building an app and looked to hire product mgrs, there were 24yo kids from NYU or Brown with BAs and a 6-mo coding camp who were asking for $125K, they had none of the fundamental technical skills to do the job and knew less about computer science than a 16yo future CS student. These workers tend to be excessively politicized, have a very high sense of entitlement and a relatively poor work ethic, whereas the culture at CS/engineering depts in academia is completely different - male-dominated, nose to the grindstone and not very politicized; not much of a life outside of work.

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Just curious, how many coders at twitter have you spoken to? Because what you are saying is pretty much the opposite of what I'm hearing.

I've talked to a bunch and yet to hear a single person say that they were excited for Musk to take over the company (or that they knew of any other coder who was excited). People are specifically running for the doors because of what Elno is doing. My tiny company has already hired a few and is in talks with others and we hear the same thing over and over. Elno is toxic to Twitter's engineering culture.

You make baseless statements about coders not identifying with Gadde or other managers but you ignore that Musk is making engineers self-certify to FTC compliance and won't let people work from home (which was extremely popular among the developers).

Unit2Sucks said:

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Cal88 said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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Musk wants to change the culture at Twitter, and reinstill a tech culture there. The best coders and engineers are driven workaholics. What someone wrote a few posts above about workaholics generally being inefficient and promoting a toxic workspace is largely true in managerial positions, but it isn`t true among technical staff. The best of these have virtually no life outside their work, and that`s perfectly alright with them.

As well, among this tech culture, there are far more workers who don`t like being constrained by a pervasive woke culture than people who are liberal zealots. There are a lot more James Damores (guy who was fired from Google for writing a long memo on gender dynamics in the tech workplace) in the top engineering circles than Yao Yues (woman who was recently fired from Twitter), so Twitter will be a magnet for the former types.

The other issue is that many big tech companies, especially those that are public content-driven spaces like Twitter, FB or Reddit have become excessively politicized, stifling and distorting free speech with bots, dynamic bans and algorithm manipulation. The political culture that has been enshrined into Twitter is hostile to someone like Musk who is more of a freethinking independent, so what we`re seeing now is him turning Twitter into a culture that is more like that of a normal, less politicized tech-driven startup from the 90s or 00s.

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Couple of things you are missing. If you are a workaholics, top tier coder, why work at an oppressive culture at Twitter as opposed to overworking at Google? It isn't as if Twitter is some amazing platform or amazing coding opportunity.

Any do you think Twitter, FB or Reddit became politicized because of the leaders or because of the demands of the work force and investors?

---

What do you think constitutes an oppressive work environment is for a top coder? It`s overbearing HR commissars, passive aggressive managers who get on their case over language, or having to sit through sensitivity training seminars as a result of some perceived microaggression by a zoomer project mgr or assistant. Most coders identify a lot more with Musk than Vijaya Gadde or any of the Twitter mgrs who got fired.

The main reason Twitter, FB etc became politicized is because they are dominated by non-technical people from the Bay Area, who tend to be very liberal. These organizations have morphed from a culture of tech startups into something that is more like that of a liberal NGO.

Also, there has been a huge influx into the industry of liberal arts grad types who have gone to coding camps or night school to take advantage of high salaries. A few years ago I was building an app and looked to hire product mgrs, there were 24yo kids from NYU or Brown with BAs and a 6-mo coding camp who were asking for $125K, they had none of the fundamental technical skills to do the job and knew less about computer science than a 16yo future CS student. These workers tend to be excessively politicized, have a very high sense of entitlement and a relatively poor work ethic, whereas the culture at CS/engineering depts in academia is completely different - male-dominated, nose to the grindstone and not very politicized; not much of a life outside of work.

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Just curious, how many coders at twitter have you spoken to? Because what you are saying is pretty much the opposite of what I'm hearing.

I've talked to a bunch and yet to hear a single person say that they were excited for Musk to take over the company (or that they knew of any other coder who was excited). People are specifically running for the doors because of what Elno is doing. My tiny company has already hired a few and is in talks with others and we hear the same thing over and over. Elno is toxic to Twitter's engineering culture.

You make baseless statements about coders not identifying with Gadde or other managers but you ignore that Musk is making engineers self-certify to FTC compliance and won't let people work from home (which was extremely popular among the developers).

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Is anyone surprised that Cal88's "analysis" seems to skew heavily to what he WANTS to be true rather than what is actually true?