LOCK HIM UP !!!

49,263 Views | 782 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by concordtom
Cal88
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chazzed said:

So, you and Musk are saying that only the arrest warrant for Trump should be put on hold. I see. Because, if it is a witch hunt, the defense will clearly show the take on reality that you are pushing to be accurate.

It's fairly clear that the Biden family's crimes have been far more egregious, they're going after Trump on a technicality, which smacks of politically-motivated lawfare. There are other clear instances were Trump broke the law, for example with his son in law using his position in the Trump administration to land big loans for his ailing real estate business. The Biden clan has also done a lot of shady deals of that nature, in several instances.

I understand that it's completely pointless to argue about this, that's why I stay away from the domestic political circus.
chazzed
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Sounds like Biden will also have his time in court. I wait with bated breath.

You do stay out of the domestic political circus. You only poke your head in to defend Trump...and to throw baseless accusations at Biden...and to defend the GOP's politicized stance on anthropogenic climate change...
Cal88
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chazzed said:

Sounds like Biden will also have his time in court. I wait with bated breath.

You do stay out of the domestic political circus. You only poke your head in to defend Trump...and to throw baseless accusations at Biden...and to defend the GOP's politicized stance on anthropogenic climate change...

The climate change stance is only politicized in your own prism, I don't take my scientific cues from GOP morons like Graham, Mitchell or Pence, or nefarious GOP-aligned oligarchs like the Kochs, I rely on serious academic sources that are well above the fray, and aren't part of the modern secular doomer Cult of Gaia.

Trump's arrest is a reflection of the US having become a banana republic, with the judiciary system being grossly weaponized along partisan lines. That's the point I brought up.
DiabloWags
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Cal88 said:

chazzed said:

Are you and Musk saying that all arrests should be put on hold because of the collapse of a bank or two (the result of deregulation spearheaded by Trump and the GOP, coincidentally enough)?

It's always the other camp's fault, that's the main feature of the American idocracy.

Wall Street runs both parties, they write the regulations, privatizing profits and socializing their losses.

And the arrest of Trump clearly is a witch hunt, you don't have to be a Trump fanboy to see that.

So you're quite certain that Trump didnt violate any campaign finance laws with payments to Daniels and McDougal?
And that's why you call it a Witch Hunt?

For some perspective, three months ago a New York Jury found the two Trump Organization companies guilty on all 17 charges of tax fraud and other crimes.

Timeline: Donald Trump, Stormy Daniels and the $130,000 payment to buy her silence - CBS News
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
DiabloWags
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Cal88 said:




Trump's arrest is a reflection of the US having become a banana republic, with the judiciary system being grossly weaponized along partisan lines. That's the point I brought up.

Your point is meaningless.
You're not interested in the truth.
You clearly approve of certain individuals being ABOVE THE LAW.
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
Cal88
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Like Hunter Biden?
Eastern Oregon Bear
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Cal88 said:



Trump's arrest is a reflection of the US having become a banana republic, with the judiciary system being grossly weaponized along partisan lines. That's the point I brought up.
Given that the GOP blocked a vote on Obama's Supreme Court nominee for a year so they could hopefully get a Republican President making the choice (they did), the very partisan nature of Trump's judicial appointees and the very right wing and unpopular decisions they are making, I'd say grossly weaponizing the judiciary system along partisan lines has been mostly the GOP's own doing. However, once extreme partisanship is unleashed, sometimes you reap the whirlwind to your own dismay.
My favorite school days… “There is no substitute.”
DiabloWags
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Cal88 said:

Like Hunter Biden?


As usual, you deflect.
And answer a question with a question.
Youre nothing but a TROLL.
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
MinotStateBeav
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DiabloWags said:

Cal88 said:

Like Hunter Biden?


As usual, you deflect.
And answer a question with a question.
Youre nothing but a TROLL.

BWHAHAHHAAHAHAHA

concordtom
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DiabloWags said:

Cal88 said:

chazzed said:

Are you and Musk saying that all arrests should be put on hold because of the collapse of a bank or two (the result of deregulation spearheaded by Trump and the GOP, coincidentally enough)?

It's always the other camp's fault, that's the main feature of the American idocracy.

Wall Street runs both parties, they write the regulations, privatizing profits and socializing their losses.

And the arrest of Trump clearly is a witch hunt, you don't have to be a Trump fanboy to see that.

So you're quite certain that Trump didnt violate any campaign finance laws with payments to Daniels and McDougal?
And that's why you call it a Witch Hunt?




I don't think he denied it above.
I think he simply called it a "technicality".

I guess Georgia and Jan 6 and bribing Zelenskyy and all the other stuff are also just mere technicalities of lawlessness.

concordtom
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Cal88 said:



Trump's arrest is a reflection of the US having become a banana republic, with the judiciary system being grossly weaponized along partisan lines. That's the point I brought up.
Given that the GOP blocked a vote on Obama's Supreme Court nominee for a year so they could hopefully get a Republican President making the choice (they did), the very partisan nature of Trump's judicial appointees and the very right wing and unpopular decisions they are making, I'd say grossly weaponizing the judiciary system along partisan lines has been mostly the GOP's own doing. However, once extreme partisanship is unleashed, sometimes you reap the whirlwind to your own dismay.


Oh, he got you there, 88.
In your face on that one.

concordtom
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MinotStateBeav said:

DiabloWags said:

Cal88 said:

Like Hunter Biden?


As usual, you deflect.
And answer a question with a question.
Youre nothing but a TROLL.

BWHAHAHHAAHAHAHA




I look forward to hearing the second phone call from Georgia, don't you?



"I didn't rob that bank! I merely asked for the teller's money. The fact that I had a gun in my pocket is a mere technicality!"
dajo9
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American Vermin
BearGoggles
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wifeisafurd said:

It's about time. This s/b a simple case. You can't deduct personal expenses form your corporation for payment to your mistress. it doesn't matter that your accountant drafted the tax return. Americans get tax evasion. My only question is why this took so long?

Wife - this is a bit sloppy. Yes it is likely a crime to deduct a personal expense on a corporate return. But the question is what crime is he being charged with in this case? Not a tax related crime.

Andrew McCarthy has several articles that go into the legal weeds as well as the larger political implications.

In terms of the legal weeds, the NY STATE crime Trump is likely to be charged with is falsifying business records. It is normally a misdemeanor with a 2 year statute of limitations (that has expired). To make it a felony with a 5 year SOL, the prosecution needs to show another crime . . . which they can't do without resorting to some very extreme legal theories (that were rejected by the prior DA, Cyrus Vance who was a partisan dem).

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/imminent-trump-indictment-and-the-statute-of-limitations/

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/progressive-democrat-braggs-motivation-in-nakedly-political-indictment-of-trump/

Here is a lengthy excerpt:

"Specifically, New York law makes falsifying business records felonious if prosecutors can prove that, in committing the fraud, the defendant intended to "conceal the commission" of "another crime." It has been suggested that, in orchestrating the NDA, Trump was violating the campaign-finance laws. That would be a stretch, to say the least. But let's say, for argument's sake, that he was. The campaign laws in question are federal. When New York's penal code speaks of concealing "another crime," it must be referring to a crime under New York law.

Some contend, to the contrary, that because the statute in question doesn't say "another New York crime," that federal crimes are covered. But what's the limiting principle? Are, say, French crimes covered? How about sharia crimes? Clearly not. In my view, under venerable criminal-law principles, doubts about the coverage of ambiguous statutes are resolved in a defendant's favor. Since the New York penal code covers crimes codified by the New York State legislature, we must presume that when it refers to "another crime" it means another New York State crime; if the legislature wanted to cover federal crimes, it would have said so.

If I'm right, then to convict Trump of a felony, Bragg's prosecutors would have to show that he knowingly and intentionally made false entries in accounting for the reimbursement of Cohen, with the purpose of covering up his commission of some other New York crime. It's not clear what that other New York crime would have been (perhaps a tax offense?), much less that Trump would have had it on his mind.

More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I doubt Bragg has much of a case here, but it doesn't look like that will stop him from bringing it. Only an indictment, it seems, will appease the ambitious DA's progressive Democratic political base. You can say, as many analysts do, that this kind of prosecution will only strengthen Trump. I disagree. Sure, given that Trump practices the populist politics of grievance, the devotion of Trump diehards, who are drawn to such politics, could be intensified if Democrats appear to be abusing their power to persecute him. I doubt, however, that most Republicans will see it that way. Instead, most will see the whole thing as tawdry. Unlike the heady days of 2015 and 2016, Republicans on the whole no longer see Trump as a new and exciting disrupter of a corrupt system; they see him as a relentless pain in the ass who brings many of his problems on himself."

______________________________________

Not stated above - the feds and FEC apparently already concluded there was no chargeable federal campaign "crime" arising from the Stormy payoff. That is the Edwards case which the Feds lost . . . so now the NY DA is making the opposite claim to get his felony. Good luck.

This is the weakest of all of the potential cases that could be brought against Trump. It certainly will strengthen him (at least in the short run) and I think that's the dems intent. They want Trump to be the nominee in 2024.

To the larger point, much like the filibuster and then the Jan 6 committee selection, the dems are being incredibly short sighted. Bringing a weak case - based on a strained/novel legal theory - is bad for the country and no doubt a partisan republican DA somewhere in the country will retaliate.

As an example, HRC's campaign was already found to have violated federal law for how they hid the fees paid for the Trump Russia dossier. Just a fine - no criminal charges. Among other things, they hid the payments as legal fees - not too different to what Trump did with Stormy and the "business records charge".

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/30/politics/clinton-dnc-steele-dossier-fusion-gps/index.html

Note that a lot of the current people in the Biden circle were involved in that - including Tony Blinken. Imagine a local or state DA bringing these types of criminal charges against Blinken, HRC, her team, and/or the DNC now (after the Feds had declined to prosecute). It would be rightly viewed as outrageous and partisan.

My fervent hope is that Trump will not be the nomination in 2024. If these weak charges are brought, it increases the chances he will be. Particularly if the charges are thrown out which they very well could be. Imagine Trump gloating then.
dajo9
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BearGoggles said:

wifeisafurd said:

It's about time. This s/b a simple case. You can't deduct personal expenses form your corporation for payment to your mistress. it doesn't matter that your accountant drafted the tax return. Americans get tax evasion. My only question is why this took so long?

Wife - this is a bit sloppy. Yes it is likely a crime to deduct a personal expense on a corporate return. But the question is what crime is he being charged with in this case? Not a tax related crime.

Andrew McCarthy has several articles that go into the legal weeds as well as the larger political implications.

In terms of the legal weeds, the NY STATE crime Trump is likely to be charged with is falsifying business records. It is normally a misdemeanor with a 2 year statute of limitations (that has expired). To make it a felony with a 5 year SOL, the prosecution needs to show another crime . . . which they can't do without resorting to some very extreme legal theories (that were rejected by the prior DA, Cyrus Vance who was a partisan dem).

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/imminent-trump-indictment-and-the-statute-of-limitations/

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/progressive-democrat-braggs-motivation-in-nakedly-political-indictment-of-trump/

Here is a lengthy excerpt:

"Specifically, New York law makes falsifying business records felonious if prosecutors can prove that, in committing the fraud, the defendant intended to "conceal the commission" of "another crime." It has been suggested that, in orchestrating the NDA, Trump was violating the campaign-finance laws. That would be a stretch, to say the least. But let's say, for argument's sake, that he was. The campaign laws in question are federal. When New York's penal code speaks of concealing "another crime," it must be referring to a crime under New York law.

Some contend, to the contrary, that because the statute in question doesn't say "another New York crime," that federal crimes are covered. But what's the limiting principle? Are, say, French crimes covered? How about sharia crimes? Clearly not. In my view, under venerable criminal-law principles, doubts about the coverage of ambiguous statutes are resolved in a defendant's favor. Since the New York penal code covers crimes codified by the New York State legislature, we must presume that when it refers to "another crime" it means another New York State crime; if the legislature wanted to cover federal crimes, it would have said so.

If I'm right, then to convict Trump of a felony, Bragg's prosecutors would have to show that he knowingly and intentionally made false entries in accounting for the reimbursement of Cohen, with the purpose of covering up his commission of some other New York crime. It's not clear what that other New York crime would have been (perhaps a tax offense?), much less that Trump would have had it on his mind.

More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I doubt Bragg has much of a case here, but it doesn't look like that will stop him from bringing it. Only an indictment, it seems, will appease the ambitious DA's progressive Democratic political base. You can say, as many analysts do, that this kind of prosecution will only strengthen Trump. I disagree. Sure, given that Trump practices the populist politics of grievance, the devotion of Trump diehards, who are drawn to such politics, could be intensified if Democrats appear to be abusing their power to persecute him. I doubt, however, that most Republicans will see it that way. Instead, most will see the whole thing as tawdry. Unlike the heady days of 2015 and 2016, Republicans on the whole no longer see Trump as a new and exciting disrupter of a corrupt system; they see him as a relentless pain in the ass who brings many of his problems on himself."

______________________________________

Not stated above - the feds and FEC apparently already concluded there was no chargeable federal campaign "crime" arising from the Stormy payoff. That is the Edwards case which the Feds lost . . . so now the NY DA is making the opposite claim to get his felony. Good luck.

This is the weakest of all of the potential cases that could be brought against Trump. It certainly will strengthen him (at least in the short run) and I think that's the dems intent. They want Trump to be the nominee in 2024.

To the larger point, much like the filibuster and then the Jan 6 committee selection, the dems are being incredibly short sighted. Bringing a weak case - based on a strained/novel legal theory - is bad for the country and no doubt a partisan republican DA somewhere in the country will retaliate.

As an example, HRC's campaign was already found to have violated federal law for how they hid the fees paid for the Trump Russia dossier. Just a fine - no criminal charges. Among other things, they hid the payments as legal fees - not too different to what Trump did with Stormy and the "business records charge".

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/30/politics/clinton-dnc-steele-dossier-fusion-gps/index.html

Note that a lot of the current people in the Biden circle were involved in that - including Tony Blinken. Imagine a local or state DA bringing these types of criminal charges against Blinken, HRC, her team, and/or the DNC now (after the Feds had declined to prosecute). It would be rightly viewed as outrageous and partisan.

My fervent hope is that Trump will not be the nomination in 2024. If these weak charges are brought, it increases the chances he will be. Particularly if the charges are thrown out which they very well could be. Imagine Trump gloating then.


Cyrus Vance is a Dem because he's in New York but his real legacy is saving the elite. Alvin Bragg following in his footsteps by seemingly waiting until the statute of limitations is in dispute before pushing this into the news. Though I'm admittedly no expert on the statute of limitations. I've read a lot of different opinions and it appears sure to be decided by a judge.

I don't even think Trump is going to be arrested tomorrow. We only have Trump's word, which is meaningless.

We should maybe discuss the big problem this country has that a President is immune from any law whose statute of limitations expires before a Presidency expires.

American Vermin
bearister
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If tRump "wins" in 2024, I would prefer a military junta to tRump and his Fellini movie cast of F Troopers having their hands on the levers of power again.

*Mass trials in soccer stadiums for any of the Deplorables that feel raw about tRump being deposed.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
BearGoggles
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dajo9 said:

BearGoggles said:

wifeisafurd said:

It's about time. This s/b a simple case. You can't deduct personal expenses form your corporation for payment to your mistress. it doesn't matter that your accountant drafted the tax return. Americans get tax evasion. My only question is why this took so long?

Wife - this is a bit sloppy. Yes it is likely a crime to deduct a personal expense on a corporate return. But the question is what crime is he being charged with in this case? Not a tax related crime.

Andrew McCarthy has several articles that go into the legal weeds as well as the larger political implications.

In terms of the legal weeds, the NY STATE crime Trump is likely to be charged with is falsifying business records. It is normally a misdemeanor with a 2 year statute of limitations (that has expired). To make it a felony with a 5 year SOL, the prosecution needs to show another crime . . . which they can't do without resorting to some very extreme legal theories (that were rejected by the prior DA, Cyrus Vance who was a partisan dem).

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/imminent-trump-indictment-and-the-statute-of-limitations/

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/progressive-democrat-braggs-motivation-in-nakedly-political-indictment-of-trump/

Here is a lengthy excerpt:

"Specifically, New York law makes falsifying business records felonious if prosecutors can prove that, in committing the fraud, the defendant intended to "conceal the commission" of "another crime." It has been suggested that, in orchestrating the NDA, Trump was violating the campaign-finance laws. That would be a stretch, to say the least. But let's say, for argument's sake, that he was. The campaign laws in question are federal. When New York's penal code speaks of concealing "another crime," it must be referring to a crime under New York law.

Some contend, to the contrary, that because the statute in question doesn't say "another New York crime," that federal crimes are covered. But what's the limiting principle? Are, say, French crimes covered? How about sharia crimes? Clearly not. In my view, under venerable criminal-law principles, doubts about the coverage of ambiguous statutes are resolved in a defendant's favor. Since the New York penal code covers crimes codified by the New York State legislature, we must presume that when it refers to "another crime" it means another New York State crime; if the legislature wanted to cover federal crimes, it would have said so.

If I'm right, then to convict Trump of a felony, Bragg's prosecutors would have to show that he knowingly and intentionally made false entries in accounting for the reimbursement of Cohen, with the purpose of covering up his commission of some other New York crime. It's not clear what that other New York crime would have been (perhaps a tax offense?), much less that Trump would have had it on his mind.

More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I doubt Bragg has much of a case here, but it doesn't look like that will stop him from bringing it. Only an indictment, it seems, will appease the ambitious DA's progressive Democratic political base. You can say, as many analysts do, that this kind of prosecution will only strengthen Trump. I disagree. Sure, given that Trump practices the populist politics of grievance, the devotion of Trump diehards, who are drawn to such politics, could be intensified if Democrats appear to be abusing their power to persecute him. I doubt, however, that most Republicans will see it that way. Instead, most will see the whole thing as tawdry. Unlike the heady days of 2015 and 2016, Republicans on the whole no longer see Trump as a new and exciting disrupter of a corrupt system; they see him as a relentless pain in the ass who brings many of his problems on himself."

______________________________________

Not stated above - the feds and FEC apparently already concluded there was no chargeable federal campaign "crime" arising from the Stormy payoff. That is the Edwards case which the Feds lost . . . so now the NY DA is making the opposite claim to get his felony. Good luck.

This is the weakest of all of the potential cases that could be brought against Trump. It certainly will strengthen him (at least in the short run) and I think that's the dems intent. They want Trump to be the nominee in 2024.

To the larger point, much like the filibuster and then the Jan 6 committee selection, the dems are being incredibly short sighted. Bringing a weak case - based on a strained/novel legal theory - is bad for the country and no doubt a partisan republican DA somewhere in the country will retaliate.

As an example, HRC's campaign was already found to have violated federal law for how they hid the fees paid for the Trump Russia dossier. Just a fine - no criminal charges. Among other things, they hid the payments as legal fees - not too different to what Trump did with Stormy and the "business records charge".

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/30/politics/clinton-dnc-steele-dossier-fusion-gps/index.html

Note that a lot of the current people in the Biden circle were involved in that - including Tony Blinken. Imagine a local or state DA bringing these types of criminal charges against Blinken, HRC, her team, and/or the DNC now (after the Feds had declined to prosecute). It would be rightly viewed as outrageous and partisan.

My fervent hope is that Trump will not be the nomination in 2024. If these weak charges are brought, it increases the chances he will be. Particularly if the charges are thrown out which they very well could be. Imagine Trump gloating then.


Cyrus Vance is a Dem because he's in New York but his real legacy is saving the elite. Alvin Bragg following in his footsteps by seemingly waiting until the statute of limitations is in dispute before pushing this into the news. Though I'm admittedly no expert on the statute of limitations. I've read a lot of different opinions and it appears sure to be decided by a judge.

I don't even think Trump is going to be arrested tomorrow. We only have Trump's word, which is meaningless.



I think Vance knew it was a loser case and didn't want to lose to Trump. He may have protected elites, but I have no doubt he would have indicted Trump if he thought he'd win.

In terms of the statute of limitations, per the McCarthy article it appears there may be some argument that IF the 5 year SOL applies (and that's a huge if), it may not have run yet. I agree that a judge will decide this - probably very quickly.

This is the weakest case against Trump - both in terms of substance (don't think the average voter cares about the porn star hush money) and the legalities. And everyone knows Trump lies - so that's factored in. The Mar Lago documents case probably created the most exposure, but then Biden and many others did the same thing. So checkmate on that. I'm not as familiar with the details of Georgia - I know the general allegations and that its another highly partisan local DA. But I'm not sure what the evidence is and/or the statute involved.

It boils down to whether Garland is going to charge Trump for 1/6. If those charges are brought, then it will become and remain a major issue in the campaign.

It is probably wishcasting, but I'm still hoping for a Desantis vs. Gavin election.
dajo9
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BearGoggles said:

dajo9 said:

BearGoggles said:

wifeisafurd said:

It's about time. This s/b a simple case. You can't deduct personal expenses form your corporation for payment to your mistress. it doesn't matter that your accountant drafted the tax return. Americans get tax evasion. My only question is why this took so long?

Wife - this is a bit sloppy. Yes it is likely a crime to deduct a personal expense on a corporate return. But the question is what crime is he being charged with in this case? Not a tax related crime.

Andrew McCarthy has several articles that go into the legal weeds as well as the larger political implications.

In terms of the legal weeds, the NY STATE crime Trump is likely to be charged with is falsifying business records. It is normally a misdemeanor with a 2 year statute of limitations (that has expired). To make it a felony with a 5 year SOL, the prosecution needs to show another crime . . . which they can't do without resorting to some very extreme legal theories (that were rejected by the prior DA, Cyrus Vance who was a partisan dem).

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/imminent-trump-indictment-and-the-statute-of-limitations/

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/progressive-democrat-braggs-motivation-in-nakedly-political-indictment-of-trump/

Here is a lengthy excerpt:

"Specifically, New York law makes falsifying business records felonious if prosecutors can prove that, in committing the fraud, the defendant intended to "conceal the commission" of "another crime." It has been suggested that, in orchestrating the NDA, Trump was violating the campaign-finance laws. That would be a stretch, to say the least. But let's say, for argument's sake, that he was. The campaign laws in question are federal. When New York's penal code speaks of concealing "another crime," it must be referring to a crime under New York law.

Some contend, to the contrary, that because the statute in question doesn't say "another New York crime," that federal crimes are covered. But what's the limiting principle? Are, say, French crimes covered? How about sharia crimes? Clearly not. In my view, under venerable criminal-law principles, doubts about the coverage of ambiguous statutes are resolved in a defendant's favor. Since the New York penal code covers crimes codified by the New York State legislature, we must presume that when it refers to "another crime" it means another New York State crime; if the legislature wanted to cover federal crimes, it would have said so.

If I'm right, then to convict Trump of a felony, Bragg's prosecutors would have to show that he knowingly and intentionally made false entries in accounting for the reimbursement of Cohen, with the purpose of covering up his commission of some other New York crime. It's not clear what that other New York crime would have been (perhaps a tax offense?), much less that Trump would have had it on his mind.

More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I doubt Bragg has much of a case here, but it doesn't look like that will stop him from bringing it. Only an indictment, it seems, will appease the ambitious DA's progressive Democratic political base. You can say, as many analysts do, that this kind of prosecution will only strengthen Trump. I disagree. Sure, given that Trump practices the populist politics of grievance, the devotion of Trump diehards, who are drawn to such politics, could be intensified if Democrats appear to be abusing their power to persecute him. I doubt, however, that most Republicans will see it that way. Instead, most will see the whole thing as tawdry. Unlike the heady days of 2015 and 2016, Republicans on the whole no longer see Trump as a new and exciting disrupter of a corrupt system; they see him as a relentless pain in the ass who brings many of his problems on himself."

______________________________________

Not stated above - the feds and FEC apparently already concluded there was no chargeable federal campaign "crime" arising from the Stormy payoff. That is the Edwards case which the Feds lost . . . so now the NY DA is making the opposite claim to get his felony. Good luck.

This is the weakest of all of the potential cases that could be brought against Trump. It certainly will strengthen him (at least in the short run) and I think that's the dems intent. They want Trump to be the nominee in 2024.

To the larger point, much like the filibuster and then the Jan 6 committee selection, the dems are being incredibly short sighted. Bringing a weak case - based on a strained/novel legal theory - is bad for the country and no doubt a partisan republican DA somewhere in the country will retaliate.

As an example, HRC's campaign was already found to have violated federal law for how they hid the fees paid for the Trump Russia dossier. Just a fine - no criminal charges. Among other things, they hid the payments as legal fees - not too different to what Trump did with Stormy and the "business records charge".

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/30/politics/clinton-dnc-steele-dossier-fusion-gps/index.html

Note that a lot of the current people in the Biden circle were involved in that - including Tony Blinken. Imagine a local or state DA bringing these types of criminal charges against Blinken, HRC, her team, and/or the DNC now (after the Feds had declined to prosecute). It would be rightly viewed as outrageous and partisan.

My fervent hope is that Trump will not be the nomination in 2024. If these weak charges are brought, it increases the chances he will be. Particularly if the charges are thrown out which they very well could be. Imagine Trump gloating then.


Cyrus Vance is a Dem because he's in New York but his real legacy is saving the elite. Alvin Bragg following in his footsteps by seemingly waiting until the statute of limitations is in dispute before pushing this into the news. Though I'm admittedly no expert on the statute of limitations. I've read a lot of different opinions and it appears sure to be decided by a judge.

I don't even think Trump is going to be arrested tomorrow. We only have Trump's word, which is meaningless.



I think Vance knew it was a loser case and didn't want to lose to Trump. He may have protected elites, but I have no doubt he would have indicted Trump if he thought he'd win.

In terms of the statute of limitations, per the McCarthy article it appears there may be some argument that IF the 5 year SOL applies (and that's a huge if), it may not have run yet. I agree that a judge will decide this - probably very quickly.

This is the weakest case against Trump - both in terms of substance (don't think the average voter cares about the porn star hush money) and the legalities. And everyone knows Trump lies - so that's factored in. The Mar Lago documents case probably created the most exposure, but then Biden and many others did the same thing. So checkmate on that. I'm not as familiar with the details of Georgia - I know the general allegations and that its another highly partisan local DA. But I'm not sure what the evidence is and/or the statute involved.

It boils down to whether Garland is going to charge Trump for 1/6. If those charges are brought, then it will become and remain a major issue in the campaign.

It is probably wishcasting, but I'm still hoping for a Desantis vs. Gavin election.


I think Vance knew his bread and butter was protecting elites. I have no doubt he treated Trump like he treated all the others.
American Vermin
BearGoggles
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dajo9 said:

BearGoggles said:

dajo9 said:

BearGoggles said:

wifeisafurd said:

It's about time. This s/b a simple case. You can't deduct personal expenses form your corporation for payment to your mistress. it doesn't matter that your accountant drafted the tax return. Americans get tax evasion. My only question is why this took so long?

Wife - this is a bit sloppy. Yes it is likely a crime to deduct a personal expense on a corporate return. But the question is what crime is he being charged with in this case? Not a tax related crime.

Andrew McCarthy has several articles that go into the legal weeds as well as the larger political implications.

In terms of the legal weeds, the NY STATE crime Trump is likely to be charged with is falsifying business records. It is normally a misdemeanor with a 2 year statute of limitations (that has expired). To make it a felony with a 5 year SOL, the prosecution needs to show another crime . . . which they can't do without resorting to some very extreme legal theories (that were rejected by the prior DA, Cyrus Vance who was a partisan dem).

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/imminent-trump-indictment-and-the-statute-of-limitations/

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/progressive-democrat-braggs-motivation-in-nakedly-political-indictment-of-trump/

Here is a lengthy excerpt:

"Specifically, New York law makes falsifying business records felonious if prosecutors can prove that, in committing the fraud, the defendant intended to "conceal the commission" of "another crime." It has been suggested that, in orchestrating the NDA, Trump was violating the campaign-finance laws. That would be a stretch, to say the least. But let's say, for argument's sake, that he was. The campaign laws in question are federal. When New York's penal code speaks of concealing "another crime," it must be referring to a crime under New York law.

Some contend, to the contrary, that because the statute in question doesn't say "another New York crime," that federal crimes are covered. But what's the limiting principle? Are, say, French crimes covered? How about sharia crimes? Clearly not. In my view, under venerable criminal-law principles, doubts about the coverage of ambiguous statutes are resolved in a defendant's favor. Since the New York penal code covers crimes codified by the New York State legislature, we must presume that when it refers to "another crime" it means another New York State crime; if the legislature wanted to cover federal crimes, it would have said so.

If I'm right, then to convict Trump of a felony, Bragg's prosecutors would have to show that he knowingly and intentionally made false entries in accounting for the reimbursement of Cohen, with the purpose of covering up his commission of some other New York crime. It's not clear what that other New York crime would have been (perhaps a tax offense?), much less that Trump would have had it on his mind.

More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I doubt Bragg has much of a case here, but it doesn't look like that will stop him from bringing it. Only an indictment, it seems, will appease the ambitious DA's progressive Democratic political base. You can say, as many analysts do, that this kind of prosecution will only strengthen Trump. I disagree. Sure, given that Trump practices the populist politics of grievance, the devotion of Trump diehards, who are drawn to such politics, could be intensified if Democrats appear to be abusing their power to persecute him. I doubt, however, that most Republicans will see it that way. Instead, most will see the whole thing as tawdry. Unlike the heady days of 2015 and 2016, Republicans on the whole no longer see Trump as a new and exciting disrupter of a corrupt system; they see him as a relentless pain in the ass who brings many of his problems on himself."

______________________________________

Not stated above - the feds and FEC apparently already concluded there was no chargeable federal campaign "crime" arising from the Stormy payoff. That is the Edwards case which the Feds lost . . . so now the NY DA is making the opposite claim to get his felony. Good luck.

This is the weakest of all of the potential cases that could be brought against Trump. It certainly will strengthen him (at least in the short run) and I think that's the dems intent. They want Trump to be the nominee in 2024.

To the larger point, much like the filibuster and then the Jan 6 committee selection, the dems are being incredibly short sighted. Bringing a weak case - based on a strained/novel legal theory - is bad for the country and no doubt a partisan republican DA somewhere in the country will retaliate.

As an example, HRC's campaign was already found to have violated federal law for how they hid the fees paid for the Trump Russia dossier. Just a fine - no criminal charges. Among other things, they hid the payments as legal fees - not too different to what Trump did with Stormy and the "business records charge".

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/30/politics/clinton-dnc-steele-dossier-fusion-gps/index.html

Note that a lot of the current people in the Biden circle were involved in that - including Tony Blinken. Imagine a local or state DA bringing these types of criminal charges against Blinken, HRC, her team, and/or the DNC now (after the Feds had declined to prosecute). It would be rightly viewed as outrageous and partisan.

My fervent hope is that Trump will not be the nomination in 2024. If these weak charges are brought, it increases the chances he will be. Particularly if the charges are thrown out which they very well could be. Imagine Trump gloating then.


Cyrus Vance is a Dem because he's in New York but his real legacy is saving the elite. Alvin Bragg following in his footsteps by seemingly waiting until the statute of limitations is in dispute before pushing this into the news. Though I'm admittedly no expert on the statute of limitations. I've read a lot of different opinions and it appears sure to be decided by a judge.

I don't even think Trump is going to be arrested tomorrow. We only have Trump's word, which is meaningless.



I think Vance knew it was a loser case and didn't want to lose to Trump. He may have protected elites, but I have no doubt he would have indicted Trump if he thought he'd win.

In terms of the statute of limitations, per the McCarthy article it appears there may be some argument that IF the 5 year SOL applies (and that's a huge if), it may not have run yet. I agree that a judge will decide this - probably very quickly.

This is the weakest case against Trump - both in terms of substance (don't think the average voter cares about the porn star hush money) and the legalities. And everyone knows Trump lies - so that's factored in. The Mar Lago documents case probably created the most exposure, but then Biden and many others did the same thing. So checkmate on that. I'm not as familiar with the details of Georgia - I know the general allegations and that its another highly partisan local DA. But I'm not sure what the evidence is and/or the statute involved.

It boils down to whether Garland is going to charge Trump for 1/6. If those charges are brought, then it will become and remain a major issue in the campaign.

It is probably wishcasting, but I'm still hoping for a Desantis vs. Gavin election.


I think Vance knew his bread and butter was protecting elites. I have no doubt he treated Trump like he treated all the others.

You're of course entitled to your opinion - and I can see your point regarding others - but not Trump. Which of Vance's supporters (the elites) would have objected to prosecuting Trump? They would have cheered.

And FWIW, I have read that Vance's office (Manhattan state DA) had an understanding with US Attorney for SDNY regarding turf issues. Basically the feds had first dibs re potential federal crimes which is what was implicated by Stormy-gate. So that likely explains why Vance delayed/dithered. The feds ran out the clock on him to some extent.
okaydo
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okaydo
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Unit2Sucks
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BearGoggles said:



More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I'm not super read into the potential indictment but I don't understand this defense at all. Trump has incredible access to pools of dark money. He could easily have found a lawyer or someone else to pay off his mistress - it's not like this is the first time he's had to do it. There are rumors he used Eliot Broidy to pay off a playmate that he knocked up which may or may not be true but easily could have been true. He could have had one of his dirtbag kids pay off Stormy or, you know, just had Cohen do it on Trump's behalf instead of through the Trump Org. Remember, the Trump org was convicted of improperly giving untaxed benefits - no one could seriously pretend that Trump or his org was on the "up and up." We're also talking about a guy who cashed checks from Mad Magazine for less than a dollar - the dude is incredibly cheap and regularly stiffs people. He isn't the kind of guy who doesn't know or care where money is going.

There is close to zero chance that Cohen accidentally used company funds for this instead of Trump's personal funds and given how complicated Trump's personal finances are there is zero chance that paying this out of his personal funds would have increased the likelihood of this affair coming to light. Do you really think Melania is at home with her readers going through their monthly finances and asking "Donald, vat's this payment for - was it the golden toilet or did you pay off another *****?"

By the way, for someone who doesn't like Trump, you go to amazing lengths to defend him.
DiabloWags
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Unit2sucks said:

By the way, for someone who doesn't like Trump, you go to amazing lengths to defend him.


Its pathetically obvious.
One 1200 word essay after another.
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
DiabloWags
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F Jim Jordan and James Comer.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/03/20/ny-da-prosecutor-response-gop-demand-trump-indictment/

"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
BearGoggles
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Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:



More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I'm not super read into the potential indictment but I don't understand this defense at all. Trump has incredible access to pools of dark money. He could easily have found a lawyer or someone else to pay off his mistress - it's not like this is the first time he's had to do it. There are rumors he used Eliot Broidy to pay off a playmate that he knocked up which may or may not be true but easily could have been true. He could have had one of his dirtbag kids pay off Stormy or, you know, just had Cohen do it on Trump's behalf instead of through the Trump Org. Remember, the Trump org was convicted of improperly giving untaxed benefits - no one could seriously pretend that Trump or his org was on the "up and up." We're also talking about a guy who cashed checks from Mad Magazine for less than a dollar - the dude is incredibly cheap and regularly stiffs people. He isn't the kind of guy who doesn't know or care where money is going.

There is close to zero chance that Cohen accidentally used company funds for this instead of Trump's personal funds and given how complicated Trump's personal finances are there is zero chance that paying this out of his personal funds would have increased the likelihood of this affair coming to light. Do you really think Melania is at home with her readers going through their monthly finances and asking "Donald, vat's this payment for - was it the golden toilet or did you pay off another *****?"

By the way, for someone who doesn't like Trump, you go to amazing lengths to defend him.
You went to law school -- you know that many crimes (including the one he's being charged for) require mens rea. To be a felony, they have to prove that Trump had specific intent as to how the accounting entry would be booked with the concurrent intention of concealing another crime. If his intention was to avoid political or personal embarrassment (which clearly seems to be the case and is not criminal by all reasonable accounts), then he had no intent to conceal a separate crime. Therefore the only possible charge is a misdemeanor (barred by SOL).

As an aside, you don't seem to understand what actually happened. Cohen did in fact advance the funds (as you suggested he should). Cohen didn't have control over company funds. Rather, Cohen advanced the funds and was paid back over time in the form of "legal fees" he billed the company - just like HRC's campaign paid for the dossier in the form of legal fees. The Trump legal fees apparently included the amount Cohen paid stormy, an amount to cover Cohen's taxes on said amount, and a bonus to Cohen (at least that is the claim).

The primary reason I "defend" Trump is I hate: (i) the double standards that are applied by the dems and press; and (ii) the inevitable race to the bottom that results in. The fact that I don't like Trump - and do like DeSantis - doesn't mean that I would or should tolerate base partisanship like the 1/6 committee or this indictment. I feel no need to apologize for that - just like I won't apologize for defending the free speech rights of people I disagree with. It is called having actual standards and principles.

Those same standards and principles have caused me to criticize Trump when I feel its warranted. Juxtapose that to people on this board - like you - who continue to insist Biden is just fine and not cognitively impaired and never criticize anything the dems do ("But TRUMP!!").

As I posted, if Trump is charged in NY, that will be the new norm and republicans will retaliate. I told you that with the 1/6 committee and look what happened with Schiff, Swalwell and Omar. I said the same thing with the filibuster and look what happened with Gorsuch and Kavanaugh.

But sure, go ahead and advocate for a bogus indictment of Trump. What could possibly go wrong? I mean it is not like there are any allegations floating around about the Biden family committing crimes. I can't imagine the Bidens ever being chased by partisan republican state prosecutors. Seriously - this may backfire on the dems quicker than you could ever imagine.

Unit2Sucks
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BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:



More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I'm not super read into the potential indictment but I don't understand this defense at all. Trump has incredible access to pools of dark money. He could easily have found a lawyer or someone else to pay off his mistress - it's not like this is the first time he's had to do it. There are rumors he used Eliot Broidy to pay off a playmate that he knocked up which may or may not be true but easily could have been true. He could have had one of his dirtbag kids pay off Stormy or, you know, just had Cohen do it on Trump's behalf instead of through the Trump Org. Remember, the Trump org was convicted of improperly giving untaxed benefits - no one could seriously pretend that Trump or his org was on the "up and up." We're also talking about a guy who cashed checks from Mad Magazine for less than a dollar - the dude is incredibly cheap and regularly stiffs people. He isn't the kind of guy who doesn't know or care where money is going.

There is close to zero chance that Cohen accidentally used company funds for this instead of Trump's personal funds and given how complicated Trump's personal finances are there is zero chance that paying this out of his personal funds would have increased the likelihood of this affair coming to light. Do you really think Melania is at home with her readers going through their monthly finances and asking "Donald, vat's this payment for - was it the golden toilet or did you pay off another *****?"

By the way, for someone who doesn't like Trump, you go to amazing lengths to defend him.
You went to law school -- you know that many crimes (including the one he's being charged for) require mens rea. To be a felony, they have to prove that Trump had specific intent as to how the accounting entry would be booked with the concurrent intention of concealing another crime. If his intention was to avoid political or personal embarrassment (which clearly seems to be the case and is not criminal by all reasonable accounts), then he had no intent to conceal a separate crime. Therefore the only possible charge is a misdemeanor (barred by SOL).
So you are a professed Trump hater who is bending over backwards to defend his lack of mens rea? Are you from the future where this has been adjudicated? How can you possibly know what his state of mind was? And how in the world is there any connection between his potential embarrassment and the way he reimbursed Cohen for paying someone off?

I just don't understand why you are going out of your way to make definitive claims in Trump's favor on something that you don't seem to have any personal knowledge of. I don't think you've said anything to make anyone think that it's more likely that Trump was handling it this way to save himself embarrassment and not to cheat on his taxes. Do you really think he's so virtuous that he couldn't possibly have the mens rea required here?

But please tell us how prosecuting Trump for felonies will all of the sudden cause Republicans to start prosecuting felonies - as if they weren't already weaponizing the criminal justice system against their enemies. Let me guess, after this Ron DeSantis is going to have the Florida legislature do his bidding to attack his political enemies. Disney better watch out. Ooops too late. Do we really need to pretend like the GOP is just waiting for Trump to be held accountable for crimes he's committed before they weaponize every institution they control? Is anyone that disingenuous?
BearGoggles
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Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:



More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I'm not super read into the potential indictment but I don't understand this defense at all. Trump has incredible access to pools of dark money. He could easily have found a lawyer or someone else to pay off his mistress - it's not like this is the first time he's had to do it. There are rumors he used Eliot Broidy to pay off a playmate that he knocked up which may or may not be true but easily could have been true. He could have had one of his dirtbag kids pay off Stormy or, you know, just had Cohen do it on Trump's behalf instead of through the Trump Org. Remember, the Trump org was convicted of improperly giving untaxed benefits - no one could seriously pretend that Trump or his org was on the "up and up." We're also talking about a guy who cashed checks from Mad Magazine for less than a dollar - the dude is incredibly cheap and regularly stiffs people. He isn't the kind of guy who doesn't know or care where money is going.

There is close to zero chance that Cohen accidentally used company funds for this instead of Trump's personal funds and given how complicated Trump's personal finances are there is zero chance that paying this out of his personal funds would have increased the likelihood of this affair coming to light. Do you really think Melania is at home with her readers going through their monthly finances and asking "Donald, vat's this payment for - was it the golden toilet or did you pay off another *****?"

By the way, for someone who doesn't like Trump, you go to amazing lengths to defend him.
You went to law school -- you know that many crimes (including the one he's being charged for) require mens rea. To be a felony, they have to prove that Trump had specific intent as to how the accounting entry would be booked with the concurrent intention of concealing another crime. If his intention was to avoid political or personal embarrassment (which clearly seems to be the case and is not criminal by all reasonable accounts), then he had no intent to conceal a separate crime. Therefore the only possible charge is a misdemeanor (barred by SOL).
So you are a professed Trump hater who is bending over backwards to defend his lack of mens rea? Are you from the future where this has been adjudicated? How can you possibly know what his state of mind was? And how in the world is there any connection between his potential embarrassment and the way he reimbursed Cohen for paying someone off?

I just don't understand why you are going out of your way to make definitive claims in Trump's favor on something that you don't seem to have any personal knowledge of. I don't think you've said anything to make anyone think that it's more likely that Trump was handling it this way to save himself embarrassment and not to cheat on his taxes. Do you really think he's so virtuous that he couldn't possibly have the mens rea required here?

But please tell us how prosecuting Trump for felonies will all of the sudden cause Republicans to start prosecuting felonies - as if they weren't already weaponizing the criminal justice system against their enemies. Let me guess, after this Ron DeSantis is going to have the Florida legislature do his bidding to attack his political enemies. Disney better watch out. Ooops too late. Do we really need to pretend like the GOP is just waiting for Trump to be held accountable for crimes he's committed before they weaponize every institution they control? Is anyone that disingenuous?

I know its hard for you to fathom actual principles since your only principle is defending your tribe. But it is not just me who has criticized (in your words "bending over backwards") the rumored indictment. Lots of never trumpers like David French and David Frum have criticized it. Liberal law professors have criticized it (https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/new-york-indict-trump-soon-case-riskier-appears-rcna75324)
The NY times has questioned it https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/10/nyregion/trump-potential-indictment-criminal-charges.html. Andrew McCarthy is anti-trump for the most part.

In fact, the "mainstream" opinion is that the indictment is a pretty significant legal overreach and very likely will backfire on a political level (unless you want Trump to be the 2024 candidate). And there is no doubt that these charges on such a strained theory would only be pursued against Trump and no one else.

And I've made no "definitive" claims in Trump's favor other than the widely held belief that the charges are very thin. Again, all of the links above, posted from a variety of political persuasions, support that. The person bending over backwards here is you - claiming to not understand mens rea which is literally the first thing we learned in first year Criminal law classes at law school.

Did DeSantis criminally charge Disney? I must have missed that. He changed the law to deprive Disney of public benefits and I actually agree with you - that is bad precedent since it seems to be in retribution for Disney's corporate policies. I don't like that, though it may be legal (since it was legislatively adopted), similar to how AB 5 targeted certain companies like UBER solely to punish them for their union policies. But legal or not, I think it is bad.

Can you say the same thing about Gavin Newsome punishing Walgreens for refusing to sell morning after pills in places where they are illegal and/or CA banning travel to states that don't have the right LGBTQ laws? What is your principle? Will you be consistent and criticize Newsome and California for using legal means to advance social policy agendas and punish those that disagree? I'll wait

It speaks volumes that you conflate hard core politics (DeSantis/Disney and Newsome/Walgreens) with criminally charging a person for "Trumped" up charges. Like I said, the results are predictable. I hope the Bidens have good lawyers and lots of money, as they can expect to face charges in each red state (or even read City/county) they traveled to. I can't wait to see the "book keeping" entries and tax accounting for money spent on Hunter's hookers - should be interesting to say the least.
Unit2Sucks
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BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:



More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I'm not super read into the potential indictment but I don't understand this defense at all. Trump has incredible access to pools of dark money. He could easily have found a lawyer or someone else to pay off his mistress - it's not like this is the first time he's had to do it. There are rumors he used Eliot Broidy to pay off a playmate that he knocked up which may or may not be true but easily could have been true. He could have had one of his dirtbag kids pay off Stormy or, you know, just had Cohen do it on Trump's behalf instead of through the Trump Org. Remember, the Trump org was convicted of improperly giving untaxed benefits - no one could seriously pretend that Trump or his org was on the "up and up." We're also talking about a guy who cashed checks from Mad Magazine for less than a dollar - the dude is incredibly cheap and regularly stiffs people. He isn't the kind of guy who doesn't know or care where money is going.

There is close to zero chance that Cohen accidentally used company funds for this instead of Trump's personal funds and given how complicated Trump's personal finances are there is zero chance that paying this out of his personal funds would have increased the likelihood of this affair coming to light. Do you really think Melania is at home with her readers going through their monthly finances and asking "Donald, vat's this payment for - was it the golden toilet or did you pay off another *****?"

By the way, for someone who doesn't like Trump, you go to amazing lengths to defend him.
You went to law school -- you know that many crimes (including the one he's being charged for) require mens rea. To be a felony, they have to prove that Trump had specific intent as to how the accounting entry would be booked with the concurrent intention of concealing another crime. If his intention was to avoid political or personal embarrassment (which clearly seems to be the case and is not criminal by all reasonable accounts), then he had no intent to conceal a separate crime. Therefore the only possible charge is a misdemeanor (barred by SOL).
So you are a professed Trump hater who is bending over backwards to defend his lack of mens rea? Are you from the future where this has been adjudicated? How can you possibly know what his state of mind was? And how in the world is there any connection between his potential embarrassment and the way he reimbursed Cohen for paying someone off?

I just don't understand why you are going out of your way to make definitive claims in Trump's favor on something that you don't seem to have any personal knowledge of. I don't think you've said anything to make anyone think that it's more likely that Trump was handling it this way to save himself embarrassment and not to cheat on his taxes. Do you really think he's so virtuous that he couldn't possibly have the mens rea required here?

But please tell us how prosecuting Trump for felonies will all of the sudden cause Republicans to start prosecuting felonies - as if they weren't already weaponizing the criminal justice system against their enemies. Let me guess, after this Ron DeSantis is going to have the Florida legislature do his bidding to attack his political enemies. Disney better watch out. Ooops too late. Do we really need to pretend like the GOP is just waiting for Trump to be held accountable for crimes he's committed before they weaponize every institution they control? Is anyone that disingenuous?

I know its hard for you to fathom actual principles since your only principle is defending your tribe. But it is not just me who has criticized (in your words "bending over backwards") the rumored indictment. Lots of never trumpers like David French and David Frum have criticized it. Liberal law professors have criticized it (https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/new-york-indict-trump-soon-case-riskier-appears-rcna75324)
The NY times has questioned it https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/10/nyregion/trump-potential-indictment-criminal-charges.html. Andrew McCarthy is anti-trump for the most part.

In fact, the "mainstream" opinion is that the indictment is a pretty significant legal overreach and very likely will backfire on a political level (unless you want Trump to be the 2024 candidate). And there is no doubt that these charges on such a strained theory would only be pursued against Trump and no one else.

And I've made no "definitive" claims in Trump's favor other than the widely held belief that the charges are very thin. Again, all of the links above, posted from a variety of political persuasions, support that. The person bending over backwards here is you - claiming to not understand mens rea which is literally the first thing we learned in first year Criminal law classes at law school.
You've claimed Trump didn't have the necessary mens rea for the supposed charges despite you not knowing what his mental state is and you've claimed that no one would ever be charged with the crime he hasn't yet been charged with (and that is related to the charge which Michael Cohen was convicted of and served prison time for).

If that's not bending over backwards to defend him, I don't know what is.

Rather than make all of these conclusions about a charge that hasn't been made and for which we don't have any inkling of the prosecution's case or evidence, why don't we let the criminal justice system play out and see whether you still think that it's abusive.

What I think is silly is pretending that the GOP will respond in kind to any "abuse" by democrats, as if the GOP has ever needed an excuse to act in bad faith. We heard this week that the Texas Lt Gov interfered in the Iran hostage crisis to damage Ford's election chances and help Reagan. Numerous GOPers interfered in the 2020 election to support Trump and thwart the free and fair election. I get that you want to pretend like if the democrats do anything wrong they will have to suffer the disproportionate response coming from the GOP but the GOP has never needed to wait for democrat wrongdoing to take anti-democratic actions. I've seen enough Charlie Brown to know that Lucy isn't going to let him kick the football and hardly find your slippery slope arguments persuasive. The bad actors in the GOP don't need any excuses to do the bad things they've been doing for decades and if this is a bad prosecution of Trump it won't cause the GOP to do any more bad stuff than they've already done.

And let's be honest, this isn't going to impact Trump's electability. Pitchbot said it best.



As for me, I will enjoy seeing Trump defenders like you continue to bend over backwards to defend him no matter how bad his actions are.
Eastern Oregon Bear
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Let's not forget about the impeachment of Bill Clinton. There's no escalation going on in relation to Trump. Targeting people for their sexual issues is nothing new and has been happening for decades.
My favorite school days… “There is no substitute.”
dajo9
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Let's not forget about the impeachment of Bill Clinton. There's no escalation going on in relation to Trump. Targeting people for their sexual issues is nothing new and has been happening for decades.


Not just sexual issues. Republicans have been criminally targeting Democrats over politics since Newt Gingrich came to power. Ken Starr went after Whitewater witnesses that didn't give the testimony he wanted back in the 1990s.
American Vermin
BearGoggles
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Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:



More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I'm not super read into the potential indictment but I don't understand this defense at all. Trump has incredible access to pools of dark money. He could easily have found a lawyer or someone else to pay off his mistress - it's not like this is the first time he's had to do it. There are rumors he used Eliot Broidy to pay off a playmate that he knocked up which may or may not be true but easily could have been true. He could have had one of his dirtbag kids pay off Stormy or, you know, just had Cohen do it on Trump's behalf instead of through the Trump Org. Remember, the Trump org was convicted of improperly giving untaxed benefits - no one could seriously pretend that Trump or his org was on the "up and up." We're also talking about a guy who cashed checks from Mad Magazine for less than a dollar - the dude is incredibly cheap and regularly stiffs people. He isn't the kind of guy who doesn't know or care where money is going.

There is close to zero chance that Cohen accidentally used company funds for this instead of Trump's personal funds and given how complicated Trump's personal finances are there is zero chance that paying this out of his personal funds would have increased the likelihood of this affair coming to light. Do you really think Melania is at home with her readers going through their monthly finances and asking "Donald, vat's this payment for - was it the golden toilet or did you pay off another *****?"

By the way, for someone who doesn't like Trump, you go to amazing lengths to defend him.
You went to law school -- you know that many crimes (including the one he's being charged for) require mens rea. To be a felony, they have to prove that Trump had specific intent as to how the accounting entry would be booked with the concurrent intention of concealing another crime. If his intention was to avoid political or personal embarrassment (which clearly seems to be the case and is not criminal by all reasonable accounts), then he had no intent to conceal a separate crime. Therefore the only possible charge is a misdemeanor (barred by SOL).
So you are a professed Trump hater who is bending over backwards to defend his lack of mens rea? Are you from the future where this has been adjudicated? How can you possibly know what his state of mind was? And how in the world is there any connection between his potential embarrassment and the way he reimbursed Cohen for paying someone off?

I just don't understand why you are going out of your way to make definitive claims in Trump's favor on something that you don't seem to have any personal knowledge of. I don't think you've said anything to make anyone think that it's more likely that Trump was handling it this way to save himself embarrassment and not to cheat on his taxes. Do you really think he's so virtuous that he couldn't possibly have the mens rea required here?

But please tell us how prosecuting Trump for felonies will all of the sudden cause Republicans to start prosecuting felonies - as if they weren't already weaponizing the criminal justice system against their enemies. Let me guess, after this Ron DeSantis is going to have the Florida legislature do his bidding to attack his political enemies. Disney better watch out. Ooops too late. Do we really need to pretend like the GOP is just waiting for Trump to be held accountable for crimes he's committed before they weaponize every institution they control? Is anyone that disingenuous?

I know its hard for you to fathom actual principles since your only principle is defending your tribe. But it is not just me who has criticized (in your words "bending over backwards") the rumored indictment. Lots of never trumpers like David French and David Frum have criticized it. Liberal law professors have criticized it (https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/new-york-indict-trump-soon-case-riskier-appears-rcna75324)
The NY times has questioned it https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/10/nyregion/trump-potential-indictment-criminal-charges.html. Andrew McCarthy is anti-trump for the most part.

In fact, the "mainstream" opinion is that the indictment is a pretty significant legal overreach and very likely will backfire on a political level (unless you want Trump to be the 2024 candidate). And there is no doubt that these charges on such a strained theory would only be pursued against Trump and no one else.

And I've made no "definitive" claims in Trump's favor other than the widely held belief that the charges are very thin. Again, all of the links above, posted from a variety of political persuasions, support that. The person bending over backwards here is you - claiming to not understand mens rea which is literally the first thing we learned in first year Criminal law classes at law school.
You've claimed Trump didn't have the necessary mens rea for the supposed charges despite you not knowing what his mental state is and you've claimed that no one would ever be charged with the crime he hasn't yet been charged with (and that is related to the charge which Michael Cohen was convicted of and served prison time for).

If that's not bending over backwards to defend him, I don't know what is.

Rather than make all of these conclusions about a charge that hasn't been made and for which we don't have any inkling of the prosecution's case or evidence, why don't we let the criminal justice system play out and see whether you still think that it's abusive.

What I think is silly is pretending that the GOP will respond in kind to any "abuse" by democrats, as if the GOP has ever needed an excuse to act in bad faith. We heard this week that the Texas Lt Gov interfered in the Iran hostage crisis to damage Ford's election chances and help Reagan. Numerous GOPers interfered in the 2020 election to support Trump and thwart the free and fair election. I get that you want to pretend like if the democrats do anything wrong they will have to suffer the disproportionate response coming from the GOP but the GOP has never needed to wait for democrat wrongdoing to take anti-democratic actions. I've seen enough Charlie Brown to know that Lucy isn't going to let him kick the football and hardly find your slippery slope arguments persuasive. The bad actors in the GOP don't need any excuses to do the bad things they've been doing for decades and if this is a bad prosecution of Trump it won't cause the GOP to do any more bad stuff than they've already done.

And let's be honest, this isn't going to impact Trump's electability. Pitchbot said it best.



As for me, I will enjoy seeing Trump defenders like you continue to bend over backwards to defend him no matter how bad his actions are.

I and many, many, many other people (including liberals) have claimed the prosecution can't prove he has the necessary mens rea and that the case is horribly flawed. Not just me. Weird that so many confirmed liberals and never trumpers are "bending over backwards" to criticize the NY prosecution and legal theory. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe it is because I'm right and you're TDS infected thinking is wrong.

I noticed you dodged my question. Since you apparently condemn DeSantis' treatment of Disney, do you similarly condemn California's treatment of Walgreens, Uber/gig companies, and other states' that don't conform to CA's "right thinking" LGBTQ policies? Are you principled or just a partisan?

Unit2Sucks
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BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:



More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I'm not super read into the potential indictment but I don't understand this defense at all. Trump has incredible access to pools of dark money. He could easily have found a lawyer or someone else to pay off his mistress - it's not like this is the first time he's had to do it. There are rumors he used Eliot Broidy to pay off a playmate that he knocked up which may or may not be true but easily could have been true. He could have had one of his dirtbag kids pay off Stormy or, you know, just had Cohen do it on Trump's behalf instead of through the Trump Org. Remember, the Trump org was convicted of improperly giving untaxed benefits - no one could seriously pretend that Trump or his org was on the "up and up." We're also talking about a guy who cashed checks from Mad Magazine for less than a dollar - the dude is incredibly cheap and regularly stiffs people. He isn't the kind of guy who doesn't know or care where money is going.

There is close to zero chance that Cohen accidentally used company funds for this instead of Trump's personal funds and given how complicated Trump's personal finances are there is zero chance that paying this out of his personal funds would have increased the likelihood of this affair coming to light. Do you really think Melania is at home with her readers going through their monthly finances and asking "Donald, vat's this payment for - was it the golden toilet or did you pay off another *****?"

By the way, for someone who doesn't like Trump, you go to amazing lengths to defend him.
You went to law school -- you know that many crimes (including the one he's being charged for) require mens rea. To be a felony, they have to prove that Trump had specific intent as to how the accounting entry would be booked with the concurrent intention of concealing another crime. If his intention was to avoid political or personal embarrassment (which clearly seems to be the case and is not criminal by all reasonable accounts), then he had no intent to conceal a separate crime. Therefore the only possible charge is a misdemeanor (barred by SOL).
So you are a professed Trump hater who is bending over backwards to defend his lack of mens rea? Are you from the future where this has been adjudicated? How can you possibly know what his state of mind was? And how in the world is there any connection between his potential embarrassment and the way he reimbursed Cohen for paying someone off?

I just don't understand why you are going out of your way to make definitive claims in Trump's favor on something that you don't seem to have any personal knowledge of. I don't think you've said anything to make anyone think that it's more likely that Trump was handling it this way to save himself embarrassment and not to cheat on his taxes. Do you really think he's so virtuous that he couldn't possibly have the mens rea required here?

But please tell us how prosecuting Trump for felonies will all of the sudden cause Republicans to start prosecuting felonies - as if they weren't already weaponizing the criminal justice system against their enemies. Let me guess, after this Ron DeSantis is going to have the Florida legislature do his bidding to attack his political enemies. Disney better watch out. Ooops too late. Do we really need to pretend like the GOP is just waiting for Trump to be held accountable for crimes he's committed before they weaponize every institution they control? Is anyone that disingenuous?

I know its hard for you to fathom actual principles since your only principle is defending your tribe. But it is not just me who has criticized (in your words "bending over backwards") the rumored indictment. Lots of never trumpers like David French and David Frum have criticized it. Liberal law professors have criticized it (https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/new-york-indict-trump-soon-case-riskier-appears-rcna75324)
The NY times has questioned it https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/10/nyregion/trump-potential-indictment-criminal-charges.html. Andrew McCarthy is anti-trump for the most part.

In fact, the "mainstream" opinion is that the indictment is a pretty significant legal overreach and very likely will backfire on a political level (unless you want Trump to be the 2024 candidate). And there is no doubt that these charges on such a strained theory would only be pursued against Trump and no one else.

And I've made no "definitive" claims in Trump's favor other than the widely held belief that the charges are very thin. Again, all of the links above, posted from a variety of political persuasions, support that. The person bending over backwards here is you - claiming to not understand mens rea which is literally the first thing we learned in first year Criminal law classes at law school.
You've claimed Trump didn't have the necessary mens rea for the supposed charges despite you not knowing what his mental state is and you've claimed that no one would ever be charged with the crime he hasn't yet been charged with (and that is related to the charge which Michael Cohen was convicted of and served prison time for).

If that's not bending over backwards to defend him, I don't know what is.

Rather than make all of these conclusions about a charge that hasn't been made and for which we don't have any inkling of the prosecution's case or evidence, why don't we let the criminal justice system play out and see whether you still think that it's abusive.

What I think is silly is pretending that the GOP will respond in kind to any "abuse" by democrats, as if the GOP has ever needed an excuse to act in bad faith. We heard this week that the Texas Lt Gov interfered in the Iran hostage crisis to damage Ford's election chances and help Reagan. Numerous GOPers interfered in the 2020 election to support Trump and thwart the free and fair election. I get that you want to pretend like if the democrats do anything wrong they will have to suffer the disproportionate response coming from the GOP but the GOP has never needed to wait for democrat wrongdoing to take anti-democratic actions. I've seen enough Charlie Brown to know that Lucy isn't going to let him kick the football and hardly find your slippery slope arguments persuasive. The bad actors in the GOP don't need any excuses to do the bad things they've been doing for decades and if this is a bad prosecution of Trump it won't cause the GOP to do any more bad stuff than they've already done.

And let's be honest, this isn't going to impact Trump's electability. Pitchbot said it best.



As for me, I will enjoy seeing Trump defenders like you continue to bend over backwards to defend him no matter how bad his actions are.

I and many, many, many other people (including liberals) have claimed the prosecution can't prove he has the necessary mens rea and that the case is horribly flawed. Not just me. Weird that so many confirmed liberals and never trumpers are "bending over backwards" to criticize the NY prosecution and legal theory. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe it is because I'm right and you're TDS infected thinking is wrong.

I noticed you dodged my question. Since you apparently condemn DeSantis' treatment of Disney, do you similarly condemn California's treatment of Walgreens, Uber/gig companies, and other states' that don't conform to CA's "right thinking" LGBTQ policies? Are you principled or just a partisan?


How do you (and the many, many, many other people) have a reasonable basis to conclude that Trump didn't have the necessary mens rea? Have you spoken to him? Have you seen the evidence?

Or are you and all of these people arguing that the prosecution just can't prove it? I can't speak to everyone's argument, but I know yours is bad because you have provided no reasonable justification for it.

I don't know whether Trump will be charged, what the charge will be, what evidence the prosecution has of his wrongdoing or what his defenses will be. I find the breathless defenses of his criminality and the attacks on the prosecution to be incredibly partisan.

I understand that conservatives believe Trump should be above the law and that some liberals may think that given his numerous crimes, the first one he's prosecuted on should be higher level, but I don't prescribe to that view. People need to have faith in our criminal justice system. It has been said that the only reason the feds didn't prosecute Trump for the hush money payment fraud was because Bill Barr wouldn't let them do it. But now disingenuous people are using that corrupt action by Barr to pretend like this isn't a real crime or that he should be immune from prosecution.

Trump is a private citizen and should be subject to the same laws as the rest of us. I know that Cohen went to jail for crimes related to the crime that Trump is being investigated for. I don't think the fact that people hate Trump means that he can't be prosecuted and I can't believe anyone would seriously take that position. I will go you one further, if any Biden has committed a crime and a prosecutor can prove it, that Biden should have to defend themself like any other person who has been prosecuted for a crime. If this prosecution is solely politically motivated and Trump can easily beat the rap, then you will get what you want - your favorite guy will go free and he will have evidence of wrongful prosecution. Getting out in front of the prosecution, as you've done, when you appear to have no basis for doing so, is unpersuasive, to say the least. Saying that a partisan can't prosecute someone for a crime would basically eliminate Texas and Florida from enforcing the law.

As for your other questions, I think Walgreens' behavior is disappointing but they are caught between a rock and a hard place. The rock is the pressure from sharia-law loving extremist christian theocrats threatening to sue if they dispense lawfully prescribed medication. In using California's market power to remove a contract from Walgreens, Newsom is almost stooping to the level of these radical theocrats, but not quite as bad because this is a relatively small contract and he's not preventing Walgreens from the lawful performance of their business. Newsom is just choosing to have this impact his vendor procurement process. Overall I'm not supportive of Newsom leveraging this situation but unlike you I won't make the false equivalence to DeSantis' treatment of Disney. Pretending like they are equivalent and ignoring that Newsom is acting in response to radical christian theocrats abusing the legal system to attack a lawful business is an incredibly partisan view.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with Uber/gig companies - Prop 22? I'm not a believer in Prop 22 (or the proposition system in its entirety) but I don't think there is any equivalence between the outcome of direct democracy and what extremist GOPers are doing through executive action to strip rights from their citizens. Another good example is MS instituting a new court system and police force to punish black people in Jackson.
dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
"Tuesday" was all just about Trump fundraising. It's always the money with him. Somewhere out there helltopay's and bearforce's wallets are a bit lighter - again.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-21/trump-arrest-claim-sparks-rush-of-of-fundraising-appeals-from-allies-rivals?srnd=premium
American Vermin
oski003
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Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:

Unit2Sucks said:

BearGoggles said:



More to the point, it's not clear that Trump would even have known about how his subordinates booked the reimbursement of Cohen i.e., he may not even have been criminally complicit in the false accounting, much less have acted with the intention of concealing some (potential but unclear) New York crime. More believable is that Trump assuming he was involved in the bookkeeping at all was not trying to conceal a crime; he was trying to conceal an extramarital fling with a porn star (or, at least, a fling that she claims they had). That would be a cover-up of something that is personally humiliating but not criminal. That is, it would be a textbook example of why people and companies execute nondisclosure agreements all the time.

I'm not super read into the potential indictment but I don't understand this defense at all. Trump has incredible access to pools of dark money. He could easily have found a lawyer or someone else to pay off his mistress - it's not like this is the first time he's had to do it. There are rumors he used Eliot Broidy to pay off a playmate that he knocked up which may or may not be true but easily could have been true. He could have had one of his dirtbag kids pay off Stormy or, you know, just had Cohen do it on Trump's behalf instead of through the Trump Org. Remember, the Trump org was convicted of improperly giving untaxed benefits - no one could seriously pretend that Trump or his org was on the "up and up." We're also talking about a guy who cashed checks from Mad Magazine for less than a dollar - the dude is incredibly cheap and regularly stiffs people. He isn't the kind of guy who doesn't know or care where money is going.

There is close to zero chance that Cohen accidentally used company funds for this instead of Trump's personal funds and given how complicated Trump's personal finances are there is zero chance that paying this out of his personal funds would have increased the likelihood of this affair coming to light. Do you really think Melania is at home with her readers going through their monthly finances and asking "Donald, vat's this payment for - was it the golden toilet or did you pay off another *****?"

By the way, for someone who doesn't like Trump, you go to amazing lengths to defend him.
You went to law school -- you know that many crimes (including the one he's being charged for) require mens rea. To be a felony, they have to prove that Trump had specific intent as to how the accounting entry would be booked with the concurrent intention of concealing another crime. If his intention was to avoid political or personal embarrassment (which clearly seems to be the case and is not criminal by all reasonable accounts), then he had no intent to conceal a separate crime. Therefore the only possible charge is a misdemeanor (barred by SOL).
So you are a professed Trump hater who is bending over backwards to defend his lack of mens rea? Are you from the future where this has been adjudicated? How can you possibly know what his state of mind was? And how in the world is there any connection between his potential embarrassment and the way he reimbursed Cohen for paying someone off?

I just don't understand why you are going out of your way to make definitive claims in Trump's favor on something that you don't seem to have any personal knowledge of. I don't think you've said anything to make anyone think that it's more likely that Trump was handling it this way to save himself embarrassment and not to cheat on his taxes. Do you really think he's so virtuous that he couldn't possibly have the mens rea required here?

But please tell us how prosecuting Trump for felonies will all of the sudden cause Republicans to start prosecuting felonies - as if they weren't already weaponizing the criminal justice system against their enemies. Let me guess, after this Ron DeSantis is going to have the Florida legislature do his bidding to attack his political enemies. Disney better watch out. Ooops too late. Do we really need to pretend like the GOP is just waiting for Trump to be held accountable for crimes he's committed before they weaponize every institution they control? Is anyone that disingenuous?

I know its hard for you to fathom actual principles since your only principle is defending your tribe. But it is not just me who has criticized (in your words "bending over backwards") the rumored indictment. Lots of never trumpers like David French and David Frum have criticized it. Liberal law professors have criticized it (https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/new-york-indict-trump-soon-case-riskier-appears-rcna75324)
The NY times has questioned it https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/10/nyregion/trump-potential-indictment-criminal-charges.html. Andrew McCarthy is anti-trump for the most part.

In fact, the "mainstream" opinion is that the indictment is a pretty significant legal overreach and very likely will backfire on a political level (unless you want Trump to be the 2024 candidate). And there is no doubt that these charges on such a strained theory would only be pursued against Trump and no one else.

And I've made no "definitive" claims in Trump's favor other than the widely held belief that the charges are very thin. Again, all of the links above, posted from a variety of political persuasions, support that. The person bending over backwards here is you - claiming to not understand mens rea which is literally the first thing we learned in first year Criminal law classes at law school.
You've claimed Trump didn't have the necessary mens rea for the supposed charges despite you not knowing what his mental state is and you've claimed that no one would ever be charged with the crime he hasn't yet been charged with (and that is related to the charge which Michael Cohen was convicted of and served prison time for).

If that's not bending over backwards to defend him, I don't know what is.

Rather than make all of these conclusions about a charge that hasn't been made and for which we don't have any inkling of the prosecution's case or evidence, why don't we let the criminal justice system play out and see whether you still think that it's abusive.

What I think is silly is pretending that the GOP will respond in kind to any "abuse" by democrats, as if the GOP has ever needed an excuse to act in bad faith. We heard this week that the Texas Lt Gov interfered in the Iran hostage crisis to damage Ford's election chances and help Reagan. Numerous GOPers interfered in the 2020 election to support Trump and thwart the free and fair election. I get that you want to pretend like if the democrats do anything wrong they will have to suffer the disproportionate response coming from the GOP but the GOP has never needed to wait for democrat wrongdoing to take anti-democratic actions. I've seen enough Charlie Brown to know that Lucy isn't going to let him kick the football and hardly find your slippery slope arguments persuasive. The bad actors in the GOP don't need any excuses to do the bad things they've been doing for decades and if this is a bad prosecution of Trump it won't cause the GOP to do any more bad stuff than they've already done.

And let's be honest, this isn't going to impact Trump's electability. Pitchbot said it best.



As for me, I will enjoy seeing Trump defenders like you continue to bend over backwards to defend him no matter how bad his actions are.

I and many, many, many other people (including liberals) have claimed the prosecution can't prove he has the necessary mens rea and that the case is horribly flawed. Not just me. Weird that so many confirmed liberals and never trumpers are "bending over backwards" to criticize the NY prosecution and legal theory. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe it is because I'm right and you're TDS infected thinking is wrong.

I noticed you dodged my question. Since you apparently condemn DeSantis' treatment of Disney, do you similarly condemn California's treatment of Walgreens, Uber/gig companies, and other states' that don't conform to CA's "right thinking" LGBTQ policies? Are you principled or just a partisan?


How do you (and the many, many, many other people) have a reasonable basis to conclude that Trump didn't have the necessary mens rea? Have you spoken to him? Have you seen the evidence?

Or are you and all of these people arguing that the prosecution just can't prove it? I can't speak to everyone's argument, but I know yours is bad because you have provided no reasonable justification for it.

I don't know whether Trump will be charged, what the charge will be, what evidence the prosecution has of his wrongdoing or what his defenses will be. I find the breathless defenses of his criminality and the attacks on the prosecution to be incredibly partisan.

I understand that conservatives believe Trump should be above the law and that some liberals may think that given his numerous crimes, the first one he's prosecuted on should be higher level, but I don't prescribe to that view. People need to have faith in our criminal justice system. It has been said that the only reason the feds didn't prosecute Trump for the hush money payment fraud was because Bill Barr wouldn't let them do it. But now disingenuous people are using that corrupt action by Barr to pretend like this isn't a real crime or that he should be immune from prosecution.

Trump is a private citizen and should be subject to the same laws as the rest of us. I know that Cohen went to jail for crimes related to the crime that Trump is being investigated for. I don't think the fact that people hate Trump means that he can't be prosecuted and I can't believe anyone would seriously take that position. I will go you own further, if any Biden has committed a crime and a prosecutor can prove it, that Biden should have to defend themself like any other person who has been prosecuted for a crime. If this prosecution is solely politically motivated and Trump can easily beat the rap, then you will get what you want - your favorite guy will go free and he will have evidence of wrongful prosecution. Getting out in front of the prosecution, as you've done, when you appear to have no basis for doing so, is unpersuasive, to say the least.

As for your other questions, I think Walgreens' behavior is disappointing but they are caught between a rock and a hard place. The rock is the pressure from sharia-law loving extremist christian theocrats threatening to sue if they dispense lawfully prescribed medication. In using California's market power to remove a contract from Walgreens, Newsom is almost stooping to the level of these radical theocrats, but not quite as bad because this is a relatively small contract and he's not preventing Walgreens from the lawful performance of their business. Newsom is just choosing to have this impact his vendor procurement process. Overall I'm not supportive of Newsom leveraging this situation but unlike you I won't make the false equivalence to DeSantis' treatment of Disney. Pretending like they are equivalent and ignoring that Newsom is acting in response to radical christian theocrats abusing the legal system to attack a lawful business is an incredibly partisan view.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with Uber/gig companies - Prop 22? I'm not a believer in Prop 22 (or the proposition system in its entirety) but I don't think there is any equivalence between the outcome of direct democracy and what extremist GOPers are doing through executive action to strip rights from their citizens. Another good example is MS instituting a new court system and police force to punish black people in Jackson.


1200 words. Smh.
going4roses
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