USAID

24,989 Views | 558 Replies | Last: 19 sec ago by Eastern Oregon Bear
tequila4kapp
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calpoly said:

tequila4kapp said:

I understood my friend to mean every federal employee, not all people in his department/Agency.

Clinton and Obama tried the "rational and reasonable" approach to doing this. Both failed, likely because 1) the institutions of government are so vast and they work to protect themselves; and 2) Congress ultimately is motivated to never allow cuts (those cuts affect businesses and people in somebody's district). I'm afraid it has to happen this way, or never at all.

Re the airplane crashes…we don't know the official causes yet but initial indications are Pilot error (DC), mechanical malfunction (Philadelphia) and weather (Toronto). I'm not sure FAA staffing mattered at all.
" I'm afraid it has to happen this way, or never at all. "

This is one of the dumbest statements ever. You don't have to elect a narcissistic felon to bring in a narcissistic nazi billionaire that has no security clearance that hires teenagers to fire federal employees without merit.
1. I gave you two examples of popular D presidents who tried to do the same thing in the rational / reasonable way you want. They both failed. Believing some version of their method could ever work today - in our even more hyper partisan political world - is the most stupid thing ever.

Instead of complaining about the process for how this is happening D's should get in the game. The most effective way to undermine DOGE is to point out that meritorious items are being cut and to engage in the process to save programs that we need. A great recent example was the nuclear missile people. That was an F up by this administration. They are back...not because a teenager axed them but because they are truly needed. But maybe D's can't do that because they believe all of these items reported as waste are actually meritorious. Heck, maybe we really do need things like Brazilian rainforest pronoun diversity advocates. More power to those who think so, but in that case - elections matter.

2. Elections suck when you lose. Your party should nominate better candidates.

3. Yes, Musk is a Nazi. In fact I heard he's Hitler's secret love child, the byproduct of an affair with Goebbel's wife. Blah, blah, blah. Your side needs to shut up with this rhetoric. Everyone you dislike is a Nazi, Dictator, Fascist, etc. Try winning arguments and elections on the merits of your positions and beliefs instead of vilifying your opponents. See the Boy Who Cried Wolf...eventually people quit listening.

4. Nice try, but per CNN, Musk has Top Secret security clearance:
"Musk has a top secret security clearance, an official familiar with the matter tells CNN."
https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/03/politics/musk-government-employee/index.html

I'm not going to look it up for you but there is similar reporting about the entirety of DOGE staffers.

5. There was an election where one person ran in part on the idea that the government needed to be downsized. He won rather convincingly. Individual merit is subservient to larger policy objectives selected through the democratic process.

BearGoggles
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sycasey said:

BearGoggles said:

sycasey said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

calpoly said:

tequila4kapp said:

I understood my friend to mean every federal employee, not all people in his department/Agency.

Clinton and Obama tried the "rational and reasonable" approach to doing this. Both failed, likely because 1) the institutions of government are so vast and they work to protect themselves; and 2) Congress ultimately is motivated to never allow cuts (those cuts affect businesses and people in somebody's district). I'm afraid it has to happen this way, or never at all.

Re the airplane crashes…we don't know the official causes yet but initial indications are Pilot error (DC), mechanical malfunction (Philadelphia) and weather (Toronto). I'm not sure FAA staffing mattered at all.
" I'm afraid it has to happen this way, or never at all. "

This is one of the dumbest statements ever. You don't have to elect a narcissistic felon to bring in a narcissistic nazi billionaire that has no security clearance that hires teenagers to fire federal employees without merit.
Thank you.

That's what I've been trying to say in my own clumsy and wordy way. I've had outstanding performance appraisals and numerous awards for the last 25 years, but it won't matter when some 20 year old that has never met me decides I must go.
I'm also going to say that none of these same people would be celebrating the firings if it were farmers or factory workers losing their jobs because some tech guy looked at a spreadsheet and decided they should be cut. For some reason it's good when it's government workers . . . not just people in Washington, local ground-level workers too.

Just goes to show that it isn't about populism or "the people." It's about retribution against perceived enemies.
Is this surprising to you? We - taxpayers - pay (or borrow) the cost of paying government workers. We don't pay the salaries of farmers or factory workers.

There are many reasons people are in favor of cutting the size and cost of government. Among others, budget deficits, misplaced priorities, political bias, and an entrenched and unaccountable bureaucracy that often provides bad service or otherwise performs poorly. None of that applies to farmers or factory workers.

It is not about retribution. It is about restoring a modest measure of fiscal discipline, setting policy priorities, and ensuring the government is accountable to the citizenry.

I don't believe that firing hundreds of thousands of people is a good way to go about this, but you stick to the party line as you will.
You're pretty damn sanctimonious and that is more evidence that you can't win a debate on the merits.

In your world, your position is principled and good faith - even as you mischaracterize many things (e.g., adopting the party line that Elon is the acting president). But I'm just sticking to the party line. That is weak sauce and displays a lot of arrogance.

No one feels good about people losing their jobs. But government is oversized and no one is (or should be) guaranteed a job for life (other than a federal judge, I suppose). And I note you offer no solution for right sizing government and deficits.
BearGoggles
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sycasey said:

TheFiatLux said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

TheFiatLux said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

TheFiatLux said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

It's what I've been saying forever - The Left diminishes its own credibility with their insane rhetoric. It's unbelievably stupid because there is so much meat on the bones for legit criticism.
Would you say the same about insane rhetoric from The Right? I'd say that examples abound right now.
At this point in time, I'm not sure what insane rhetoric - at the foundational level - you're talking about. To be clear, there have been many times in the past when it was the GOP doing crazy things. Right now, it's the Dems. I honestly can't think of an issue where they're on the right side, and certainly not on the right side with the public. As a Republican, I say keep at it because I know, as my grandfather told me, the worm always turns. But until it does, I want to see things I believe in get instituted. And right now, the people working the hardest to make sure that happens, are the Democrats. Illegal immigration, deporting violent criminals, cutting bloat and waste out of the government, helping Americans before sending money abroad, protecting women's sports and the list goes on and on... aside from abortion (that would actually be an example for you of some insane GOP rhetoric) there doesn't seem to be anything on which the Dems are taking the position the American people want them to.
I appreciate you speaking up to tell us what the American people want. Surely a monolithic group like the American people must be of one mind.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to be snide in reply to a perfectly civil post.

Regarding the American people. there was an election.
What's civil about saying Democrats are insane?

I will admit being in danger of being fired illegally without cause does make me rather snippy and you caught my crossfire.
So instead of just apologizing to someone being civil to you in this conversation, you create a strawman. 1) I didn't say Dems were insane 2) I said they're doing crazy things - just like the GOP has done in the past 3) I literally started by calling out past actions of my party (in reply to someone saying it was insane), and then brought up the Dems.

This is why it's so hard to have honest conversations when people disagree.

In the private sector I've got fired and laid off. It's not fun, so should it happen to you I absolutely empathize with you, but it's part of life.
I would say that getting laid off in the private sector:

1. Absolutely sucks. Part of the reason people take lower salaries in government jobs is because there has historically been more security.

2. Is usually a sign of bad management at the top.

Public sector employees have lower salaries in part because they have significantly better benefits packages than private employees (particularly retirement and health insurance). And in many cases, they simply don't work as hard which is a lifestyle choice. I know several government lawyers who are great people and honest civil servants. They seldom work overtime and never work weekends. Good on them for making that choice - but they earn less.

In terms of bad management at the top, the same applies to government. People losing jobs now are victims of prior mismanagement of the government. That reality doesn't mean they're entitled to keep their jobs.

And, again you offer no alternative solution to limiting the growth of government and deficits.

tequila4kapp
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A 2022 OMB study found that highly educated government staff earned 29% less than private sector contemporaries but also had benefits packages that offered 43% more.
movielover
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sycasey said:

bear2034 said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

sycasey said:

I'm also going to say that none of these same people would be celebrating the firings if it were farmers or factory workers losing their jobs
Farmers overwhelmingly produce things we need to sustain life, so yes, I'd likely have a problem with that.

Today there's a report the Agriculture department canceled numerous contracts. Among them were a "Brazilian forest and gender consultant" and "central American gender assessment consultant". Again, the department of Agriculture.

They also cancelled 948 training classes of which 758 were solely related to DEI.

Maybe we could get government agencies right sized and laser focused on their primary missions???? That necessarily means some huge number of people would keep their government jobs, and that would be great. This other stuff has to go.
These are the people the conservative media will focus on, for obvious reasons. Those are not the only people being let go. There are also people who run national parks and VA hospitals being fired. It's indiscriminate, not laser focused.

So Trump and DOGE are guilty of indiscriminate retribution and not laser focused retribution?
Yeah, they've come under a belief that government workers are "the deep state" and therefore bad people who deserve to be fired. They've applied this broadly to whole departments and categories of workers, not just finding those who actually are working against them.


It seems a large majority of USAID funds were used for idealogical programs (LGBTQ / Trans), political patronage, foreign elections, or likely moved sideways to the C-A. Keep AIDs funding (PEPFAR) and food for the truly poor.

Elizabeth Warren's credit department looks too slanted, subjective, and political.

Other departments are being audited.

Per BearGoogles and government workers. A friend handled 50-60 cases as an attorney representing insurance companies; she went to work for the State and found attorneys handling less than a handful. She was furious.
movielover
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DiabloWags
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tequila4kapp said:




5. There was an election where one person ran in part on the idea that the government needed to be downsized. He won rather convincingly. Individual merit is subservient to larger policy objectives selected through the democratic process.



So do you have no problem with the Appointments Clause of the U.S. Constitution being violated?
The Constitution just winds up being collateral damage because Trump won convincingly?

Where does it say in the U.S. Constitution that an unelected official not confirmed by the Senate can literally "delete" a federal agency that was created by CONGRESS?
movielover
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Thanks Obama! He gave us the 300-person staff, funding, and authority through the United States Digital Service - which he created to save his health care website travesty.

"Budget reform is not an option, it's a necessity," Obama says in the video. "We can't sustain a system that bleeds billions of taxpayer dollars on programs that have outlived their usefulness or exist solely because of the power of politicians, lobbyists or interest groups."

Yahoo: Democrats loved idea of DOGE before Trump, White House quips

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/democrats-loved-idea-doge-before-trump-white-house-quips



FTR, nothing had been deleted, yet.
Cal88
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DiabloWags
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You need to go back to high school and stay awake during your civics class.
You clearly weren't awake when the teacher talked about the 3 branches of Govt.

USAID is a federal agency created by CONGRESS.
It has a bunch of positions all of which were created by CONGRESS.

Georgetown legal scholar and constitutional expert, Stephen Vladeck:


BearGoggles
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DiabloWags said:

You need to go back to high school and stay awake during your civics class.
You clearly weren't awake when the teacher talked about the 3 branches of Govt.

USAID is a federal agency created by CONGRESS.
It has a bunch of positions all of which were created by CONGRESS.

Georgetown legal scholar and constitutional expert, Stephen Vladeck:



60 minutes/CBS has beclowned itself once again. Stephen Vladek is a partisan and his views reflect one argument. But, as has been the case recently (and sadly), 60 minutes does not present the other side. More liberal circle jerking.

And even Vladek admits, at 1:37, that The president gets to choose who runs departments and gets to set policy priorities for those departments. That is the end of 90% of the argument.





It appears he has no problem with executive power when his preferred politicians exercise it. He's a hack.





DiabloWags
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BearGoggles said:

DiabloWags said:

You need to go back to high school and stay awake during your civics class.
You clearly weren't awake when the teacher talked about the 3 branches of Govt.

USAID is a federal agency created by CONGRESS.
It has a bunch of positions all of which were created by CONGRESS.

Georgetown legal scholar and constitutional expert, Stephen Vladeck:




And even Vladek admits, at 1:37, that The president gets to choose who runs departments and gets to set policy priorities for those departments. That is the end of 90% of the argument.






You're conflating and cherry picking again.
It's the only thing that you do well here.

Congress gets to FUND and STRUCTURE an agency that they created such as USAID.
Not the President.

Duh.


movielover
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And they get to drive us off a financial cliff while they build their net worth of $100 million!
sycasey
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BearGoggles said:

sycasey said:

BearGoggles said:

sycasey said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

calpoly said:

tequila4kapp said:

I understood my friend to mean every federal employee, not all people in his department/Agency.

Clinton and Obama tried the "rational and reasonable" approach to doing this. Both failed, likely because 1) the institutions of government are so vast and they work to protect themselves; and 2) Congress ultimately is motivated to never allow cuts (those cuts affect businesses and people in somebody's district). I'm afraid it has to happen this way, or never at all.

Re the airplane crashes…we don't know the official causes yet but initial indications are Pilot error (DC), mechanical malfunction (Philadelphia) and weather (Toronto). I'm not sure FAA staffing mattered at all.
" I'm afraid it has to happen this way, or never at all. "

This is one of the dumbest statements ever. You don't have to elect a narcissistic felon to bring in a narcissistic nazi billionaire that has no security clearance that hires teenagers to fire federal employees without merit.
Thank you.

That's what I've been trying to say in my own clumsy and wordy way. I've had outstanding performance appraisals and numerous awards for the last 25 years, but it won't matter when some 20 year old that has never met me decides I must go.
I'm also going to say that none of these same people would be celebrating the firings if it were farmers or factory workers losing their jobs because some tech guy looked at a spreadsheet and decided they should be cut. For some reason it's good when it's government workers . . . not just people in Washington, local ground-level workers too.

Just goes to show that it isn't about populism or "the people." It's about retribution against perceived enemies.
Is this surprising to you? We - taxpayers - pay (or borrow) the cost of paying government workers. We don't pay the salaries of farmers or factory workers.

There are many reasons people are in favor of cutting the size and cost of government. Among others, budget deficits, misplaced priorities, political bias, and an entrenched and unaccountable bureaucracy that often provides bad service or otherwise performs poorly. None of that applies to farmers or factory workers.

It is not about retribution. It is about restoring a modest measure of fiscal discipline, setting policy priorities, and ensuring the government is accountable to the citizenry.

I don't believe that firing hundreds of thousands of people is a good way to go about this, but you stick to the party line as you will.
You're pretty damn sanctimonious and that is more evidence that you can't win a debate on the merits.
Dude, no one is more sanctimonious in here than you. Spare me.

Part of the reason I offer no alternative solution on reducing government is because, as a liberal/lefty type, I don't believe that is a major priority. Clearly you do, though again my perspective is that they are doing too much too quickly and being reckless about it. We will see how it works out in the long run.
movielover
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So you prefer bankruptcy?
sycasey
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movielover said:

So you prefer bankruptcy?
You think the United States government will literally go bankrupt?
bear2034
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sycasey said:

bear2034 said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

sycasey said:

I'm also going to say that none of these same people would be celebrating the firings if it were farmers or factory workers losing their jobs
Farmers overwhelmingly produce things we need to sustain life, so yes, I'd likely have a problem with that.

Today there's a report the Agriculture department canceled numerous contracts. Among them were a "Brazilian forest and gender consultant" and "central American gender assessment consultant". Again, the department of Agriculture.

They also cancelled 948 training classes of which 758 were solely related to DEI.

Maybe we could get government agencies right sized and laser focused on their primary missions???? That necessarily means some huge number of people would keep their government jobs, and that would be great. This other stuff has to go.
These are the people the conservative media will focus on, for obvious reasons. Those are not the only people being let go. There are also people who run national parks and VA hospitals being fired. It's indiscriminate, not laser focused.

So Trump and DOGE are guilty of indiscriminate retribution and not laser focused retribution?
Yeah, they've come under a belief that government workers are "the deep state" and therefore bad people who deserve to be fired. They've applied this broadly to whole departments and categories of workers, not just finding those who actually are working against them.
Are there bad people in government that deserve to be fired? Does it acutally happen?

sycasey
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bear2034 said:

sycasey said:

bear2034 said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

sycasey said:

I'm also going to say that none of these same people would be celebrating the firings if it were farmers or factory workers losing their jobs
Farmers overwhelmingly produce things we need to sustain life, so yes, I'd likely have a problem with that.

Today there's a report the Agriculture department canceled numerous contracts. Among them were a "Brazilian forest and gender consultant" and "central American gender assessment consultant". Again, the department of Agriculture.

They also cancelled 948 training classes of which 758 were solely related to DEI.

Maybe we could get government agencies right sized and laser focused on their primary missions???? That necessarily means some huge number of people would keep their government jobs, and that would be great. This other stuff has to go.
These are the people the conservative media will focus on, for obvious reasons. Those are not the only people being let go. There are also people who run national parks and VA hospitals being fired. It's indiscriminate, not laser focused.

So Trump and DOGE are guilty of indiscriminate retribution and not laser focused retribution?
Yeah, they've come under a belief that government workers are "the deep state" and therefore bad people who deserve to be fired. They've applied this broadly to whole departments and categories of workers, not just finding those who actually are working against them.
Are there bad people in government that deserve to be fired?
There probably are in any large organization, yes.
oski003
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DiabloWags said:

You need to go back to high school and stay awake during your civics class.
You clearly weren't awake when the teacher talked about the 3 branches of Govt.

USAID is a federal agency created by CONGRESS.
It has a bunch of positions all of which were created by CONGRESS.

Georgetown legal scholar and constitutional expert, Stephen Vladeck:





You are TERRIBLY MISINFORMED.

USAID was established in 1961 by President John F. Kennedy to unite several foreign assistance organizations and programs under one agency. Statute law places USAID under "the direct authority and policy guidance of the Secretary of State".

Duh.
tequila4kapp
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BearGoggles said:

DiabloWags said:

You need to go back to high school and stay awake during your civics class.
You clearly weren't awake when the teacher talked about the 3 branches of Govt.

USAID is a federal agency created by CONGRESS.
It has a bunch of positions all of which were created by CONGRESS.

Georgetown legal scholar and constitutional expert, Stephen Vladeck:



See the 3:15 mark explanation of Civil Service protections. Never before have we had Civil Servants openly defy an administration. It was always assumed these people would perform their duties in a bipartisan manner; it is the very essence of their legal protections. A subset of these people are openly defying this obligation.
movielover
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Opps.

BearGoggles
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DiabloWags said:

BearGoggles said:

DiabloWags said:

You need to go back to high school and stay awake during your civics class.
You clearly weren't awake when the teacher talked about the 3 branches of Govt.

USAID is a federal agency created by CONGRESS.
It has a bunch of positions all of which were created by CONGRESS.

Georgetown legal scholar and constitutional expert, Stephen Vladeck:




And even Vladek admits, at 1:37, that The president gets to choose who runs departments and gets to set policy priorities for those departments. That is the end of 90% of the argument.






You're conflating and cherry picking again.
It's the only thing that you do well here.

Congress gets to FUND and STRUCTURE an agency that they created such as USAID.
Not the President.

Duh.



As is typical, you misunderstand the law while, ironically, lecturing about civic classes.

Congress appropriates. Congress CAN structure (i.e., earmark) an expenditure if it so chooses. For example, it can appropriate $1M for a park in Alabama. When it does that, the executive branch is obliged to spend the $$ for said purpose, but retains limited discretion as to how the money is spent (i.e., picking the contractors, etc.). The executive cannot reallocate the $$ to building a wall in Texas.

However, the vast majority of appropriations are not that specific. For example, money to FEMA for disaster relief. In those cases, the President, as the leader of the executive branch, has tremendous discretion as to how the money is spent.

And in the case of USAID, the statute specifically says USAID money is to be spent in a manner serving the US interests, as determined by the Secretary of State (who operates under the President). Specifically, Congress passed the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act, which established USAID as an independent agency and clarified that its administrator "shall report to and be under the direct authority and foreign policy guidance of the secretary of state."

So, as is often the case, you're wrong. The President (and by extension his delegates in the executive branch) have tremendous discretion as to how money is spent, particularly in the case of USAID.
bear2034
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How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time, even though Democrats are saying these cuts are not big enough to matter.
Eastern Oregon Bear
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TheFiatLux said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

TheFiatLux said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

TheFiatLux said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

It's what I've been saying forever - The Left diminishes its own credibility with their insane rhetoric. It's unbelievably stupid because there is so much meat on the bones for legit criticism.
Would you say the same about insane rhetoric from The Right? I'd say that examples abound right now.
At this point in time, I'm not sure what insane rhetoric - at the foundational level - you're talking about. To be clear, there have been many times in the past when it was the GOP doing crazy things. Right now, it's the Dems. I honestly can't think of an issue where they're on the right side, and certainly not on the right side with the public. As a Republican, I say keep at it because I know, as my grandfather told me, the worm always turns. But until it does, I want to see things I believe in get instituted. And right now, the people working the hardest to make sure that happens, are the Democrats. Illegal immigration, deporting violent criminals, cutting bloat and waste out of the government, helping Americans before sending money abroad, protecting women's sports and the list goes on and on... aside from abortion (that would actually be an example for you of some insane GOP rhetoric) there doesn't seem to be anything on which the Dems are taking the position the American people want them to.
I appreciate you speaking up to tell us what the American people want. Surely a monolithic group like the American people must be of one mind.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to be snide in reply to a perfectly civil post.

Regarding the American people. there was an election.
What's civil about saying Democrats are insane?

I will admit being in danger of being fired illegally without cause does make me rather snippy and you caught my crossfire.
So instead of just apologizing to someone being civil to you in this conversation, you create a strawman. 1) I didn't say Dems were insane 2) I said they're doing crazy things - just like the GOP has done in the past 3) I literally started by calling out past actions of my party (in reply to someone saying it was insane), and then brought up the Dems.

This is why it's so hard to have honest conversations when people disagree.

In the private sector I've got fired and laid off. It's not fun, so should it happen to you I absolutely empathize with you, but it's part of life.
I don't see why I should apologize for having different opinions than you. You should grow a thicker skin. Not everyone will agree with you and that doesn't make them uncivil.
socaltownie
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The problem with DOGE is that it is NOT data driven or really being done with much of an understanding.

Likely the best source of federal employment is here but happy to use whatever source you would like

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-work-for-the-federal-government/

1) About half the workforce is in the big three (DOD, Homeland Security, VA). The third is especially challenging to cut as VA = Health care (essentially) and that is a place where finding ways to reduce head count and still provide quality care is challenging.

2) As has been pointed out, the challenge with going after probationary employees (because they have less protection) is that it is a status conferred to those who have advanced into a new title or switched deparments. They may have decades of experience but have lost their projections (and jobs) because of the rules the government has on this matter.

3) Where there has been a ton of bloat is in contractors/third parties but Musk (who is that) has strangely been largely silent on that front. Remember, NASA used to put up its OWN rockets - now it generally contracts witth the Space X of the world. I am not arguing that isn't better. I tend to believe in the private sector. But if he really wants to go after the "big money" it is there, I leave it to others to be cynical as to why not ;-)

4) Finally, this is a side show. There just is NOT that much money. The real $$ is in entitlement reform. But the cynic in me believes this exercise is being odone not to solve the fiscal problem but because it will provide just enough cover for the GOP to pressure the CBO to "score" DOGE efforts at a very high level and thus get the tax bill through under budget rules/scoring. Frankly if you really do care about debt/deficit/etc. then you should be OUTRAGED over this game because the debt is going get worse, not better, as the **** show throws up smokescreen to get the tax extension through (I can't believe I asm going to typle this but thank goodness for Chip Roy who is going to be a deficit hawk and likely won't go along with it without real savings).
Eastern Oregon Bear
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tequila4kapp said:

BearGoggles said:

DiabloWags said:

You need to go back to high school and stay awake during your civics class.
You clearly weren't awake when the teacher talked about the 3 branches of Govt.

USAID is a federal agency created by CONGRESS.
It has a bunch of positions all of which were created by CONGRESS.

Georgetown legal scholar and constitutional expert, Stephen Vladeck:



See the 3:15 mark explanation of Civil Service protections. Never before have we had Civil Servants openly defy an administration. It was always assumed these people would perform their duties in a bipartisan manner; it is the very essence of their legal protections. A subset of these people are openly defying this obligation.
So fire those who defy the administration, though it would be good to hear their reasons. Most likely it mainly involves DOGE violating long established rules about protecting data. If you fire those defiant people (100? 200? 500?), it's far less than 1-2% of the workers being fired so far.

By the way, employee salaries are 4.5% of the federal budget. There are much larger targets they should be zeroing in on.
socaltownie
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BearGoggles said:

DiabloWags said:

BearGoggles said:

DiabloWags said:

You need to go back to high school and stay awake during your civics class.
You clearly weren't awake when the teacher talked about the 3 branches of Govt.

USAID is a federal agency created by CONGRESS.
It has a bunch of positions all of which were created by CONGRESS.

Georgetown legal scholar and constitutional expert, Stephen Vladeck:




And even Vladek admits, at 1:37, that The president gets to choose who runs departments and gets to set policy priorities for those departments. That is the end of 90% of the argument.






You're conflating and cherry picking again.
It's the only thing that you do well here.

Congress gets to FUND and STRUCTURE an agency that they created such as USAID.
Not the President.

Duh.



As is typical, you misunderstand the law while, ironically, lecturing about civic classes.

Congress appropriates. Congress CAN structure (i.e., earmark) an expenditure if it so chooses. For example, it can appropriate $1M for a park in Alabama. When it does that, the executive branch is obliged to spend the $$ for said purpose, but retains limited discretion as to how the money is spent (i.e., picking the contractors, etc.). The executive cannot reallocate the $$ to building a wall in Texas.

However, the vast majority of appropriations are not that specific. For example, money to FEMA for disaster relief. In those cases, the President, as the leader of the executive branch, has tremendous discretion as to how the money is spent.

And in the case of USAID, the statute specifically says USAID money is to be spent in a manner serving the US interests, as determined by the Secretary of State (who operates under the President). Specifically, Congress passed the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act, which established USAID as an independent agency and clarified that its administrator "shall report to and be under the direct authority and foreign policy guidance of the secretary of state."

So, as is often the case, you're wrong. The President (and by extension his delegates in the executive branch) have tremendous discretion as to how money is spent, particularly in the case of USAID.
While they have a lot of leeway (depending on the authorizing language) what is going to be litigated is whether they can explicitly NOT spend it (the impoundment act). We are surely going to get a case on that in front of the SOCTUS soon and it probably does need to be litigated (and Congress needs be forced to legislate - which is going to likely require a pretty massive overhaul in how it does business and some real maturity by voters since askign them to reauthorize agencies and pass appropriation bills is going to require compromise at a level we haven't seen for probably 40 years).
movielover
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Obama added a Trillion dollars for 'shovel ready' jobs, that weren't, and bc we now run on CR, that Trillion dollars has been baked into the yearly cake.
oski003
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socaltownie said:

The problem with DOGE is that it is NOT data driven or really being done with much of an understanding.

Likely the best source of federal employment is here but happy to use whatever source you would like

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-work-for-the-federal-government/

1) About half the workforce is in the big three (DOD, Homeland Security, VA). The third is especially challenging to cut as VA = Health care (essentially) and that is a place where finding ways to reduce head count and still provide quality care is challenging.

2) As has been pointed out, the challenge with going after probationary employees (because they have less protection) is that it is a status conferred to those who have advanced into a new title or switched deparments. They may have decades of experience but have lost their projections (and jobs) because of the rules the government has on this matter.

3) Where there has been a ton of bloat is in contractors/third parties but Musk (who is that) has strangely been largely silent on that front. Remember, NASA used to put up its OWN rockets - now it generally contracts witth the Space X of the world. I am not arguing that isn't better. I tend to believe in the private sector. But if he really wants to go after the "big money" it is there, I leave it to others to be cynical as to why not ;-)

4) Finally, this is a side show. There just is NOT that much money. The real $$ is in entitlement reform. But the cynic in me believes this exercise is being odone not to solve the fiscal problem but because it will provide just enough cover for the GOP to pressure the CBO to "score" DOGE efforts at a very high level and thus get the tax bill through under budget rules/scoring. Frankly if you really do care about debt/deficit/etc. then you should be OUTRAGED over this game because the debt is going get worse, not better, as the **** show throws up smokescreen to get the tax extension through (I can't believe I asm going to typle this but thank goodness for Chip Roy who is going to be a deficit hawk and likely won't go along with it without real savings).


DOGE is not silent about reducing money paid to third parties and contractors. The list of reductions of ridiculous items has been posted here no less than five times. Are folks talking to a wall?
oski003
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

tequila4kapp said:

BearGoggles said:

DiabloWags said:

You need to go back to high school and stay awake during your civics class.
You clearly weren't awake when the teacher talked about the 3 branches of Govt.

USAID is a federal agency created by CONGRESS.
It has a bunch of positions all of which were created by CONGRESS.

Georgetown legal scholar and constitutional expert, Stephen Vladeck:



See the 3:15 mark explanation of Civil Service protections. Never before have we had Civil Servants openly defy an administration. It was always assumed these people would perform their duties in a bipartisan manner; it is the very essence of their legal protections. A subset of these people are openly defying this obligation.
So fire those who defy the administration, though it would be good to hear their reasons. Most likely it mainly involves DOGE violating long established rules about protecting data. If you fire those defiant people (100? 200? 500?), it's far less than 1-2% of the workers being fired so far.

By the way, employee salaries are 4.5% of the federal budget. There are much larger targets they should be zeroing in on.


They are zeroing in on other targets. Are you not paying any attention?
movielover
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They've alluded to possibly six million dead people collecting Social Security... even if it's one million, taking them off of SS and Medicare would be a huge savings.

And can we bring felony theft charges and recoup some of those monies?
BearGoggles
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socaltownie said:

BearGoggles said:

DiabloWags said:

BearGoggles said:

DiabloWags said:

You need to go back to high school and stay awake during your civics class.
You clearly weren't awake when the teacher talked about the 3 branches of Govt.

USAID is a federal agency created by CONGRESS.
It has a bunch of positions all of which were created by CONGRESS.

Georgetown legal scholar and constitutional expert, Stephen Vladeck:




And even Vladek admits, at 1:37, that The president gets to choose who runs departments and gets to set policy priorities for those departments. That is the end of 90% of the argument.






You're conflating and cherry picking again.
It's the only thing that you do well here.

Congress gets to FUND and STRUCTURE an agency that they created such as USAID.
Not the President.

Duh.



As is typical, you misunderstand the law while, ironically, lecturing about civic classes.

Congress appropriates. Congress CAN structure (i.e., earmark) an expenditure if it so chooses. For example, it can appropriate $1M for a park in Alabama. When it does that, the executive branch is obliged to spend the $$ for said purpose, but retains limited discretion as to how the money is spent (i.e., picking the contractors, etc.). The executive cannot reallocate the $$ to building a wall in Texas.

However, the vast majority of appropriations are not that specific. For example, money to FEMA for disaster relief. In those cases, the President, as the leader of the executive branch, has tremendous discretion as to how the money is spent.

And in the case of USAID, the statute specifically says USAID money is to be spent in a manner serving the US interests, as determined by the Secretary of State (who operates under the President). Specifically, Congress passed the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act, which established USAID as an independent agency and clarified that its administrator "shall report to and be under the direct authority and foreign policy guidance of the secretary of state."

So, as is often the case, you're wrong. The President (and by extension his delegates in the executive branch) have tremendous discretion as to how money is spent, particularly in the case of USAID.
While they have a lot of leeway (depending on the authorizing language) what is going to be litigated is whether they can explicitly NOT spend it (the impoundment act). We are surely going to get a case on that in front of the SOCTUS soon and it probably does need to be litigated (and Congress needs be forced to legislate - which is going to likely require a pretty massive overhaul in how it does business and some real maturity by voters since askign them to reauthorize agencies and pass appropriation bills is going to require compromise at a level we haven't seen for probably 40 years).
From what I understand, this is correct. Impoundment is an open constitutional issue though from what I've read, Trump may have an uphill battle given that he is supposed faithfully execute the laws which suggest he's supposed to spend the $. He may have to spend the money even if he has broad discretion on what the money is spent on.

One obvious counterpoint will be that Biden objectively refused to enforce border/immigration laws and the courts gave him wide discretion. Not an exact analogy, but not off base. It shows that courts are limited in what they can/will order a president to do.

In that regard, what remedy can a court really enforce? Is a court going to decide how the $$ is spent? If a court orders Trump to spend the $$ and he decides to spend it on a wall (as opposed to USAID), then what?
socaltownie
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movielover said:

Obama added a Trillion dollars for 'shovel ready' jobs, that weren't, and bc we now run on CR, that Trillion dollars has been baked into the yearly cake.
Cite/Statistic? Trillion dollar is a LOT of money and likely over 10 (or 20) years.
socaltownie
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movielover said:

They've alluded to possibly six million dead people collecting Social Security... even if it's one million, taking them off of SS and Medicare would be a huge savings.

And can we bring felony theft charges and recoup some of those monies?
That is a joke. I can flat out tell you that this part of our government works well. Within 30 days after my mom's passing and without any action on my part (yet) the SSA clawed back her last check calculated as a percentage of her last month. What they found was that there are several million RECORDS for dead people still in the system.
socaltownie
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BearGoggles said:

socaltownie said:

BearGoggles said:

DiabloWags said:

BearGoggles said:

DiabloWags said:

You need to go back to high school and stay awake during your civics class.
You clearly weren't awake when the teacher talked about the 3 branches of Govt.

USAID is a federal agency created by CONGRESS.
It has a bunch of positions all of which were created by CONGRESS.

Georgetown legal scholar and constitutional expert, Stephen Vladeck:




And even Vladek admits, at 1:37, that The president gets to choose who runs departments and gets to set policy priorities for those departments. That is the end of 90% of the argument.






You're conflating and cherry picking again.
It's the only thing that you do well here.

Congress gets to FUND and STRUCTURE an agency that they created such as USAID.
Not the President.

Duh.



As is typical, you misunderstand the law while, ironically, lecturing about civic classes.

Congress appropriates. Congress CAN structure (i.e., earmark) an expenditure if it so chooses. For example, it can appropriate $1M for a park in Alabama. When it does that, the executive branch is obliged to spend the $$ for said purpose, but retains limited discretion as to how the money is spent (i.e., picking the contractors, etc.). The executive cannot reallocate the $$ to building a wall in Texas.

However, the vast majority of appropriations are not that specific. For example, money to FEMA for disaster relief. In those cases, the President, as the leader of the executive branch, has tremendous discretion as to how the money is spent.

And in the case of USAID, the statute specifically says USAID money is to be spent in a manner serving the US interests, as determined by the Secretary of State (who operates under the President). Specifically, Congress passed the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act, which established USAID as an independent agency and clarified that its administrator "shall report to and be under the direct authority and foreign policy guidance of the secretary of state."

So, as is often the case, you're wrong. The President (and by extension his delegates in the executive branch) have tremendous discretion as to how money is spent, particularly in the case of USAID.
While they have a lot of leeway (depending on the authorizing language) what is going to be litigated is whether they can explicitly NOT spend it (the impoundment act). We are surely going to get a case on that in front of the SOCTUS soon and it probably does need to be litigated (and Congress needs be forced to legislate - which is going to likely require a pretty massive overhaul in how it does business and some real maturity by voters since askign them to reauthorize agencies and pass appropriation bills is going to require compromise at a level we haven't seen for probably 40 years).
From what I understand, this is correct. Impoundment is an open constitutional issue though from what I've read, Trump may have an uphill battle given that he is supposed faithfully execute the laws which suggest he's supposed to spend the $. He may have to spend the money even if he has broad discretion on what the money is spent on.

One obvious counterpoint will be that Biden objectively refused to enforce border/immigration laws and the courts gave him wide discretion. Not an exact analogy, but not off base. It shows that courts are limited in what they can/will order a president to do.

In that regard, what remedy can a court really enforce? Is a court going to decide how the $$ is spent? If a court orders Trump to spend the $$ and he decides to spend it on a wall (as opposed to USAID), then what?
We don't know. No President since 1974 has done this. What he is SUPPOSED to do is go to Congress and say "I didn't need to spend it on X and here is why". They then need to take action to affirm that and, if not, he is supposed to "obligate it".

I do not believe that Biden had an appropriation bill that said "spend X on Immigration, specifically X, Y and Z".
 
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