Some musings about the Democratic Party's deep challenge

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socaltownie
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10:43a, 10/22/25
I have been thinking about this for a while and watching Graham Platner's rise and fall underscores what I think is the core challenge.

At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

1) Global populations being much more mobile (aka immigration waves),
2) Global populations being less Christian (a shrinking demographic compared to the other great monothestic religions of the world and increasing agnostic viewsin the west),
3) People being much more relativist in their moral thinking about issues such as sexuality and personal morality (gay marriage and trends toward legalization of drugs).
4) Globalization of trade and the death of distance putting an every increasing number of people into the jungle of the global economy.

BI OT is taken up with ENDLESS discussions about these topics and their subtopics but if one where going to describe MAGA how the movement is a reaction to these four trends feels like a very good starting point. I think also that these 4 trends are "indisputable" facts on the ground. And I explicitly framed them in a morally neutral way.

So if I had a political movement around reversing those 4 trends I got a platform to communicate. I don't necessarily need to be internally logical (I don't think Trump and Maga are) - but I can easily point to one of those 4 things individually and say "bad".

Now dumb politics is fighting your opponent on their turf. So the democrats do NOT need to say they are FOR those four things. But what we have, near as I can tell, is a party who is mostly about defending (and modestly expanding) the core structure of the new deal. Better SS. Better Medicare. Decreasing the cost of Student loans. Maybe some modest expansion of the R&D system in the US. These are not the stuff of passionate voter engagement.

When the democrats DO go big (see AOC, Bernie or Planter) they lack a coherent narrative. We ARE living in a true new Gilded Age but (at least 2 date) no one has constructed a narrative that helps connect that concentration of wealth to diminished economic prospects. I can vilify the great robber barons who were squeezing the grange or killing union organizers. It is hard to point out how Zuck or Bazos are hurting ordinary people (I think they are but it is a really hard narrative in the 21st century to spell out quickly).

It is I think why I am in a down mood today. The four forces laid out above are NOT changing. In a real sense MAGA are the political luddites of the 21st century. But railing against them makes for good voter mobilization. The left needs something similar to emotionally connect.

PS. And a ton of BI'ers are guilty of this. Good politics for MAGA is railing against these four things and then universally saying "And the democracts (in other words 50+ million people) are universally FOR it. Thus "We are for strong borders and the rule of law and (all) democrats are one worlders that would do away with citizenship and let every Mexican national come into the US to work at any wage they wanted." "MAGA believes that there is good in Christianity and (all) Democrats believe in paganism and want us all to follow shiria law")
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bearister
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In reply to socaltownie • 12:09p, 10/22/25
"……White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively…"

Oh, I'm sorry, I must be confused, is there a non pejorative way to use that term?
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Muckieeye
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In reply to bearister • 12:11p, 10/22/25
bearister said:
"……White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively…"

Oh, I'm sorry, I must be confused, is there a non pejorative way to use that term?

I've always liked "Christians in name only".
Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives...
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative.
-John Stewart Mill
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Aunburdened
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In reply to socaltownie • 1:13p, 10/22/25

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PAC-10-BEAR
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In reply to socaltownie • 1:36p, 10/22/25
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

The problem isn't white Christian nationalism. Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves. Just listen to NPR for half an hour and you can tell they're still clueless.

So coming up with a messaging strategy won't work because one, the Democrats don't know what they believe anymore, and two, Americans distrust legacy media more than ever after years of gaslighting. I hear the Chinese don't consume their own mainstream media because they understand it's just CCP propaganda. Besides, Elon Musk owns Twitter so the Democrats and the Deep State have no control over the de facto town square.

I see only three options:

1. Hope there is a group of sinister elements working within the Trump admin to subvert him, ala Russiagate and Spygate.

2. Hope that a political movement arises from the ashes of the Democratic Party and takes it over much like what the Tea Party and MAGA did with the Republican Party.

3. Continue with violence and targeted killings (Kirk, Trump, Scalise, etc...)

The third option appears trendy with the left these days.
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socaltownie
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In reply to bearister • 1:45p, 10/22/25
bearister said:
"……White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively…"

Oh, I'm sorry, I must be confused, is there a non way to use that term?

I think there is. I am NOT saying that I agree with it but.....

1) "White" They honestly believe that the culture rooted in Great Britain (and to a lesser extent the rest of Northern Europe) is superior than any other - the unique combination of protestant reformation, the expressions of liberty as articulated by Locke and Mills, and what Weber called the protestant work ethic is not only superior but under threat from other forces. They often will conceed that people of other ethnicities could embrace this "whiteness" but it needs to be complete, casting off any connections to the rest of their culture, including accents, tastes, holiday, etc. Mass migration isn't a problem because of its impact on the economy - it is a threat because of the cultures of sending nations/regions and how they threaten the "whiteness" as defined above.

2) "Christian". This usually takes the form of "anti-muslim" but essentially the argument here is that Christianity - especially American evangelical Christianity resting on a literal interpretation of scripture, is a recipe for the good life. Personal redemption is a critical component as it requires a self awareness of sin and the desire to change for a more moral life.

3) Nationalism. This often gets articulate in a neo-isolationist way but is often articulated that the US is best when it places its interests at the forefront and a belief that as a continental power separated by great oceans is is largely immune from the goings on in Eurasia.

I don't think these 3 terms are "pejorative" if what we means by that a term being used to express " contempt or disapproval." The ideas above, I believe, are very wrong but not so beyond the pale as to be laughable. They have very long standing roots in American political thought. The useful thing about WCN as a term is that it nicely in a very shorthand way captures all 3 of these traditions in a simple phrase.
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socaltownie
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In reply to PAC-10-BEAR • 1:51p, 10/22/25
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

T

That isn't true at all and thus misses the point. The best work on this is by Pew whose "n" is over 30,000 on this question and has been studying it for years with the same battery of questions. Moreover, if you unpack pew, the concern is that

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

"Namely, younger Americans remain far less religious than older adults.
For example, the youngest adults in the survey (ages 18 to 24) are less likely than today's oldest adults (ages 74 and older) to:
  • Identify as Christian (46% vs. 80%)
  • Pray daily (27% vs. 58%)
  • Say they attend religious services at least monthly (25% vs. 49%)
And the youngest adults are more likely than the oldest Americans to be religiously unaffiliated (43% vs. 13%)."

The problem with you (and I really should mute you) is that you argue fact free. I am deeply concerned that you are a product of a Cal education because really either you slept thorugh it, failed to take any courses beyond a very narrow scope or didn';t really understand methods and how to understand data. I shudder.
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socaltownie
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In reply to Aunburdened • 1:53p, 10/22/25
Aunburdened said:


Fact free., You didn't listen to the clip did you. He is arguing for a FREE press and worries that the administration's actions are eroding that freedom. Why do you waste your time spreading falsehoods? I mean is is somehow fun????!!
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bearister
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In reply to PAC-10-BEAR • 2:09p, 10/22/25
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

The problem isn't white Christian nationalism. Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves. Just listen to NPR for half an hour and you can tell they're still clueless.

So coming up with a messaging strategy won't work because one, the Democrats don't know what they believe anymore, and two, Americans distrust legacy media more than ever after years of gaslighting. I hear the Chinese don't consume their own mainstream media because they understand it's just CCP propaganda. Besides, Elon Musk owns Twitter so the Democrats and the Deep State have no control over the de facto town square.

I see only three options:

1. Hope there is a group of sinister elements working within the Trump admin to subvert him, ala Russiagate and Spygate.

2. Hope that a political movement arises from the ashes of the Democratic Party and takes it over much like what the Tea Party and MAGA did with the Republican Party.

3. Continue with violence and targeted killings (Kirk, Trump, Scalise, etc...)

The third option appears trendy with the left these days.


"Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves."

Republicans have figured out that although TDS was a somewhat effective tactic to deflect legitimate criticism of Trump and shut down debate during Trump I, it no longer works as a shield for Trump's increasingly more bizarre, anti Democratic and authoritarian conduct during Trump II (aka Trump unchained with no guard rails).

Now when things heat up, like Trump having his personal DOJ write him a check for $230,000,000, his supporters/apologists pivot to the "Democrats are so hopeless" narrative (which isn't remotely relevant to addressing Trump's misconduct).

You suggest 3 options for defeating Trump/Trumpism (as per usual, Options #1 and # 3 are just your typical cat spray).

I think there is a 4th option and it is the most probable:

4. As the line representing Trump's Greed/Drunk with Power factor starts to surpass the line representing his One Lucky B@stard factor on the graph, he is putting himself exceedingly at risk of getting politically derailed because he is doing what no successful career criminal ever does: pressing his luck until the well runs dry.


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PAC-10-BEAR
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In reply to socaltownie • 2:10p, 10/22/25
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

T

That isn't true at all and thus misses the point. The best work on this is by Pew whose "n" is over 30,000 on this question and has been studying it for years with the same battery of questions. Moreover, if you unpack pew, the concern is that

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

"Namely, younger Americans remain far less religious than older adults.
For example, the youngest adults in the survey (ages 18 to 24) are less likely than today's oldest adults (ages 74 and older) to:
  • Identify as Christian (46% vs. 80%)
  • Pray daily (27% vs. 58%)
  • Say they attend religious services at least monthly (25% vs. 49%)
And the youngest adults are more likely than the oldest Americans to be religiously unaffiliated (43% vs. 13%)."

The problem with you (and I really should mute you) is that you argue fact free. I am deeply concerned that you are a product of a Cal education because really either you slept thorugh it, failed to take any courses beyond a very narrow scope or didn';t really understand methods and how to understand data. I shudder.

The Pew research study you noted was prior to the Charlie Kirk assassination, check the dates. There has been a revival since.

The mentioning of the Kirk assassination and attempts on Trump are triggering and should be. The rebirth of the new Democratic Party won't happen until the political violence and rhetoric are fully acknowledged and repented over. This Christian country won't accept it. So far, I see no change.
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PAC-10-BEAR
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In reply to bearister • 2:19p, 10/22/25
bearister said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

The problem isn't white Christian nationalism. Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves. Just listen to NPR for half an hour and you can tell they're still clueless.

So coming up with a messaging strategy won't work because one, the Democrats don't know what they believe anymore, and two, Americans distrust legacy media more than ever after years of gaslighting. I hear the Chinese don't consume their own mainstream media because they understand it's just CCP propaganda. Besides, Elon Musk owns Twitter so the Democrats and the Deep State have no control over the de facto town square.

I see only three options:

1. Hope there is a group of sinister elements working within the Trump admin to subvert him, ala Russiagate and Spygate.

2. Hope that a political movement arises from the ashes of the Democratic Party and takes it over much like what the Tea Party and MAGA did with the Republican Party.

3. Continue with violence and targeted killings (Kirk, Trump, Scalise, etc...)

The third option appears trendy with the left these days.


"Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves."

When media interviewed No Kings protestors over the weekend to ask why they are protesting and why they think Trump was behaving like a king, most couldn't give any specific examples. One or two were outraged over ICE. I believe you and others here are no different from them.
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socaltownie
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In reply to PAC-10-BEAR • 2:23p, 10/22/25
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

T

That isn't true at all and thus misses the point. The best work on this is by Pew whose "n" is over 30,000 on this question and has been studying it for years with the same battery of questions. Moreover, if you unpack pew, the concern is that

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

"Namely, younger Americans remain far less religious than older adults.
For example, the youngest adults in the survey (ages 18 to 24) are less likely than today's oldest adults (ages 74 and older) to:
  • Identify as Christian (46% vs. 80%)
  • Pray daily (27% vs. 58%)
  • Say they attend religious services at least monthly (25% vs. 49%)
And the youngest adults are more likely than the oldest Americans to be religiously unaffiliated (43% vs. 13%)."

The problem with you (and I really should mute you) is that you argue fact free. I am deeply concerned that you are a product of a Cal education because really either you slept thorugh it, failed to take any courses beyond a very narrow scope or didn';t really understand methods and how to understand data. I shudder.

The Pew research study you noted was prior to the Charlie Kirk assassination, check the dates. There has been a revival since.

The mentioning of the Kirk assassination and attempts on Trump are triggering and should be. The rebirth of the new Democratic Party won't happen until the political violence and rhetoric are fully acknowledged and repented over. This Christian country won't accept it. So far, I see no change.

Oh you have got to be kidding. You really think that we know ANYTHING after a month? Again, you must not have gone to Cal because this is complete idiocy. Will you eat crow when in a year it didn't move the needle.....AT ALL.
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socaltownie
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In reply to PAC-10-BEAR • 2:25p, 10/22/25
PAC-10-BEAR said:
bearister said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

The problem isn't white Christian nationalism. Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves. Just listen to NPR for half an hour and you can tell they're still clueless.

So coming up with a messaging strategy won't work because one, the Democrats don't know what they believe anymore, and two, Americans distrust legacy media more than ever after years of gaslighting. I hear the Chinese don't consume their own mainstream media because they understand it's just CCP propaganda. Besides, Elon Musk owns Twitter so the Democrats and the Deep State have no control over the de facto town square.

I see only three options:

1. Hope there is a group of sinister elements working within the Trump admin to subvert him, ala Russiagate and Spygate.

2. Hope that a political movement arises from the ashes of the Democratic Party and takes it over much like what the Tea Party and MAGA did with the Republican Party.

3. Continue with violence and targeted killings (Kirk, Trump, Scalise, etc...)

The third option appears trendy with the left these days.


"Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves."

When media interviewed No Kings protestors over the weekend to ask why they are protesting and why they think Trump was behaving like a king, most couldn't give any specific examples. One or two were outraged over ICE. I believe you and others here are no different from them.

The "media"????!!! I amjSURE you watched every show and read every newspaper. Do you really believe two randos constitute a sample?

You sir, are exhibit one in what is wrong with our education system.
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Big C
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In reply to socaltownie • 2:26p, 10/22/25
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

T

That isn't true at all and thus misses the point. The best work on this is by Pew whose "n" is over 30,000 on this question and has been studying it for years with the same battery of questions. Moreover, if you unpack pew, the concern is that

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

"Namely, younger Americans remain far less religious than older adults.
For example, the youngest adults in the survey (ages 18 to 24) are less likely than today's oldest adults (ages 74 and older) to:
  • Identify as Christian (46% vs. 80%)
  • Pray daily (27% vs. 58%)
  • Say they attend religious services at least monthly (25% vs. 49%)
And the youngest adults are more likely than the oldest Americans to be religiously unaffiliated (43% vs. 13%)."

The problem with you (and I really should mute you) is that you argue fact free. I am deeply concerned that you are a product of a Cal education because really either you slept thorugh it, failed to take any courses beyond a very narrow scope or didn';t really understand methods and how to understand data. I shudder.

I would add that even linking some bs ("amuse", "Lord Bebo", etc) to one's post can still be "arguing fact free".
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PAC-10-BEAR
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In reply to socaltownie • 2:32p, 10/22/25
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
bearister said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

The problem isn't white Christian nationalism. Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves. Just listen to NPR for half an hour and you can tell they're still clueless.

So coming up with a messaging strategy won't work because one, the Democrats don't know what they believe anymore, and two, Americans distrust legacy media more than ever after years of gaslighting. I hear the Chinese don't consume their own mainstream media because they understand it's just CCP propaganda. Besides, Elon Musk owns Twitter so the Democrats and the Deep State have no control over the de facto town square.

I see only three options:

1. Hope there is a group of sinister elements working within the Trump admin to subvert him, ala Russiagate and Spygate.

2. Hope that a political movement arises from the ashes of the Democratic Party and takes it over much like what the Tea Party and MAGA did with the Republican Party.

3. Continue with violence and targeted killings (Kirk, Trump, Scalise, etc...)

The third option appears trendy with the left these days.


"Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves."

When media interviewed No Kings protestors over the weekend to ask why they are protesting and why they think Trump was behaving like a king, most couldn't give any specific examples. One or two were outraged over ICE. I believe you and others here are no different from them.

The "media"????!!! I amjSURE you watched every show and read every newspaper. Do you really believe two randos constitute a sample?

You sir, are exhibit one in what is wrong with our education system.

CNN and NPR. The protestors were emotional, though, I give them credit for that. I'm waiting until you start using ALL CAPS.
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socaltownie
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In reply to bearister • 2:37p, 10/22/25
bearister said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

The problem isn't white Christian nationalism. Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves. Just listen to NPR for half an hour and you can tell they're still clueless.

So coming up with a messaging strategy won't work because one, the Democrats don't know what they believe anymore, and two, Americans distrust legacy media more than ever after years of gaslighting. I hear the Chinese don't consume their own mainstream media because they understand it's just CCP propaganda. Besides, Elon Musk owns Twitter so the Democrats and the Deep State have no control over the de facto town square.

I see only three options:

1. Hope there is a group of sinister elements working within the Trump admin to subvert him, ala Russiagate and Spygate.

2. Hope that a political movement arises from the ashes of the Democratic Party and takes it over much like what the Tea Party and MAGA did with the Republican Party.

3. Continue with violence and targeted killings (Kirk, Trump, Scalise, etc...)

The third option appears trendy with the left these days.


"Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves."

Republicans have figured out that although TDS was a somewhat effective tactic to deflect legitimate criticism of Trump and shut down debate during Trump I, it no longer works as a shield for Trump's increasingly more bizarre, anti Democratic and authoritarian conduct during Trump II (aka Trump unchained with no guard rails).

Now when things heat up, like Trump having his personal DOJ write him a check for $230,000,000, his supporters/apologists pivot to the "Democrats are so hopeless" narrative (which isn't remotely relevant to addressing Trump's misconduct).

You suggest 3 options for defeating Trump/Trumpism (as per usual, Options #1 and # 3 are just your typical cat spray).

I think there is a 4th option and it is the most probable:

4. As the line representing Trump's Greed and Drunk with Power factors start to surpass the line representing his One Lucky B@stard factor on the graph, he is putting himself exceedingly at risk of getting politically derailed because he is doing what no successful criminal ever does: pressing his luck until the well runs dry.



The interesting thing is that it may not matter - that elections really are a function of deeply baked in voter sentiments which, in turn, reflect their opinions on right way/wrong way questions that are driven by large macro forces that exist apart from the DC bubble.

That has to be the concern for Republicans - that the electorate is in a snippy mood and that 30% of GOP voters are unhappy. In such periods of time the incumbents get tossed. To me it will be interesting to see both the Virgina and NJ results next month and whether *(and how) that impacts national discourse.

One thing I told myself (kinda like the sunshine pumping before Wilcox starts conference play) after Trump 2 won is that the long knives will come out soon because a whole bunch of GOP'ers are looking at an open seat. I really do still believe that and I think Trump is essentially powerless after November 26 even if they hold the house because the would be candidates are not all going to fall behind Vance. Now if Trump expires all bets on that are off but remember, Bush I was not annoited and faced a competitive primary in 1988. I think Vance will also and time will tell if his attack dog style helps. Also problematic is being cattholic when he gets to Iowa.
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In reply to PAC-10-BEAR • 2:38p, 10/22/25
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
bearister said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

The problem isn't white Christian nationalism. Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves. Just listen to NPR for half an hour and you can tell they're still clueless.

So coming up with a messaging strategy won't work because one, the Democrats don't know what they believe anymore, and two, Americans distrust legacy media more than ever after years of gaslighting. I hear the Chinese don't consume their own mainstream media because they understand it's just CCP propaganda. Besides, Elon Musk owns Twitter so the Democrats and the Deep State have no control over the de facto town square.

I see only three options:

1. Hope there is a group of sinister elements working within the Trump admin to subvert him, ala Russiagate and Spygate.

2. Hope that a political movement arises from the ashes of the Democratic Party and takes it over much like what the Tea Party and MAGA did with the Republican Party.

3. Continue with violence and targeted killings (Kirk, Trump, Scalise, etc...)

The third option appears trendy with the left these days.


"Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves."

When media interviewed No Kings protestors over the weekend to ask why they are protesting and why they think Trump was behaving like a king, most couldn't give any specific examples. One or two were outraged over ICE. I believe you and others here are no different from them.

The "media"????!!! I amjSURE you watched every show and read every newspaper. Do you really believe two randos constitute a sample?

You sir, are exhibit one in what is wrong with our education system.

CNN and NPR. The protestors were emotional, though, I give them credit for that. I'm waiting until you start using ALL CAPS.

Oh this quote from NPR (after 60 seconds of googling). Feels pretty smart on to me

" "Now listen, there are those in this country who have decided at the behest of the President to declare war on Chicago and American cities across this country!" the Democratic official said. "But we are here to stand firm, to stand committed that we will not bend, we will not bow, we will not cower, we will not submit to the authoritarianism that is coming down!"

or

"Adam Livingston, a 35-year-old Marine Corps veteran, wore fatigues and carried a Marine Corps flag.
"Veterans and even active duty service members need to realize that we're loyal to the Constitution and not to a faith, a political party, an ideology, or a man," he said."

or Jenny (I want to give her a hug)

"Jenny Colombo held a rainbow-trimmed sign that said "The Emperor Has No Clothes."
"I feel President Trump is the epitome of that character," Colombo told member station KERA. "Everybody is just walking around him, everybody can see what's going on, and they're all just supporting him blindly.""

You are fact free again. Stop it. YOu are embarassing yourself.
Take care of your Chicken
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In reply to Big C • 2:41p, 10/22/25
Big C said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

T

That isn't true at all and thus misses the point. The best work on this is by Pew whose "n" is over 30,000 on this question and has been studying it for years with the same battery of questions. Moreover, if you unpack pew, the concern is that

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

"Namely, younger Americans remain far less religious than older adults.
For example, the youngest adults in the survey (ages 18 to 24) are less likely than today's oldest adults (ages 74 and older) to:
  • Identify as Christian (46% vs. 80%)
  • Pray daily (27% vs. 58%)
  • Say they attend religious services at least monthly (25% vs. 49%)
And the youngest adults are more likely than the oldest Americans to be religiously unaffiliated (43% vs. 13%)."

The problem with you (and I really should mute you) is that you argue fact free. I am deeply concerned that you are a product of a Cal education because really either you slept thorugh it, failed to take any courses beyond a very narrow scope or didn';t really understand methods and how to understand data. I shudder.


I would add that even linking some bs ("amuse", "Lord Bebo", etc) to one's post can still be "arguing fact free".

He really is exhibit A in the bad faith argument style that the internet has given rise to. Either he is stupid and dumb or, again, is just a bad faith actor.
Take care of your Chicken
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PAC-10-BEAR
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In reply to socaltownie • 2:41p, 10/22/25
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

T

That isn't true at all and thus misses the point. The best work on this is by Pew whose "n" is over 30,000 on this question and has been studying it for years with the same battery of questions. Moreover, if you unpack pew, the concern is that

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

"Namely, younger Americans remain far less religious than older adults.
For example, the youngest adults in the survey (ages 18 to 24) are less likely than today's oldest adults (ages 74 and older) to:
  • Identify as Christian (46% vs. 80%)
  • Pray daily (27% vs. 58%)
  • Say they attend religious services at least monthly (25% vs. 49%)
And the youngest adults are more likely than the oldest Americans to be religiously unaffiliated (43% vs. 13%)."

The problem with you (and I really should mute you) is that you argue fact free. I am deeply concerned that you are a product of a Cal education because really either you slept thorugh it, failed to take any courses beyond a very narrow scope or didn';t really understand methods and how to understand data. I shudder.

The Pew research study you noted was prior to the Charlie Kirk assassination, check the dates. There has been a revival since.

The mentioning of the Kirk assassination and attempts on Trump are triggering and should be. The rebirth of the new Democratic Party won't happen until the political violence and rhetoric are fully acknowledged and repented over. This Christian country won't accept it. So far, I see no change.

Oh you have got to be kidding. You really think that we know ANYTHING after a month? Again, you must not have gone to Cal because this is complete idiocy. Will you eat crow when in a year it didn't move the needle.....AT ALL.

The left created an American martyr, a Christian martyr. Imagine that. Did you watch Kirk's funeral service? Erika Kirk publicly forgave the assassin and shocked the world. Truly amazing.

Hey, TPUSA is coming to Berkeley! Get your tickets now, just make sure to watch out for people on roofs!

Starts on Mon, November 10, 2025, 06:30 PM (US/Pacific)
Doors Open: 05:00 PM

https://events2022.tpusa.com/events/the-american-comeback-tour-at-university-of-california-berkeley-ee
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In reply to PAC-10-BEAR • 2:43p, 10/22/25
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

T

That isn't true at all and thus misses the point. The best work on this is by Pew whose "n" is over 30,000 on this question and has been studying it for years with the same battery of questions. Moreover, if you unpack pew, the concern is that

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

"Namely, younger Americans remain far less religious than older adults.
For example, the youngest adults in the survey (ages 18 to 24) are less likely than today's oldest adults (ages 74 and older) to:
  • Identify as Christian (46% vs. 80%)
  • Pray daily (27% vs. 58%)
  • Say they attend religious services at least monthly (25% vs. 49%)
And the youngest adults are more likely than the oldest Americans to be religiously unaffiliated (43% vs. 13%)."

The problem with you (and I really should mute you) is that you argue fact free. I am deeply concerned that you are a product of a Cal education because really either you slept thorugh it, failed to take any courses beyond a very narrow scope or didn';t really understand methods and how to understand data. I shudder.

The Pew research study you noted was prior to the Charlie Kirk assassination, check the dates. There has been a revival since.

The mentioning of the Kirk assassination and attempts on Trump are triggering and should be. The rebirth of the new Democratic Party won't happen until the political violence and rhetoric are fully acknowledged and repented over. This Christian country won't accept it. So far, I see no change.

Oh you have got to be kidding. You really think that we know ANYTHING after a month? Again, you must not have gone to Cal because this is complete idiocy. Will you eat crow when in a year it didn't move the needle.....AT ALL.

The left created an American martyr, a Christian martyr. Imagine that. Did you watch Kirk's funeral service? Erika Kirk publicly forgave the assassin and shocked the world. Truly amazing.

Hey, TPUSA is coming to Berkeley! Get your tickets now, just make sure to watch out for people on roofs!

Starts on Mon, November 10, 2025, 06:30 PM (US/Pacific)
Doors Open: 05:00 PM

https://events2022.tpusa.com/events/the-american-comeback-tour-at-university-of-california-berkeley-ee

LOL. You do realize that is a core part of the Christian tradition. She did it well. Black Civil Rights leaders for 100 years did it better.
Take care of your Chicken
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PAC-10-BEAR
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In reply to socaltownie • 2:46p, 10/22/25
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

T

That isn't true at all and thus misses the point. The best work on this is by Pew whose "n" is over 30,000 on this question and has been studying it for years with the same battery of questions. Moreover, if you unpack pew, the concern is that

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

"Namely, younger Americans remain far less religious than older adults.
For example, the youngest adults in the survey (ages 18 to 24) are less likely than today's oldest adults (ages 74 and older) to:
  • Identify as Christian (46% vs. 80%)
  • Pray daily (27% vs. 58%)
  • Say they attend religious services at least monthly (25% vs. 49%)
And the youngest adults are more likely than the oldest Americans to be religiously unaffiliated (43% vs. 13%)."

The problem with you (and I really should mute you) is that you argue fact free. I am deeply concerned that you are a product of a Cal education because really either you slept thorugh it, failed to take any courses beyond a very narrow scope or didn';t really understand methods and how to understand data. I shudder.

The Pew research study you noted was prior to the Charlie Kirk assassination, check the dates. There has been a revival since.

The mentioning of the Kirk assassination and attempts on Trump are triggering and should be. The rebirth of the new Democratic Party won't happen until the political violence and rhetoric are fully acknowledged and repented over. This Christian country won't accept it. So far, I see no change.

Oh you have got to be kidding. You really think that we know ANYTHING after a month? Again, you must not have gone to Cal because this is complete idiocy. Will you eat crow when in a year it didn't move the needle.....AT ALL.

The left created an American martyr, a Christian martyr. Imagine that. Did you watch Kirk's funeral service? Erika Kirk publicly forgave the assassin and shocked the world. Truly amazing.

Hey, TPUSA is coming to Berkeley! Get your tickets now, just make sure to watch out for people on roofs!

Starts on Mon, November 10, 2025, 06:30 PM (US/Pacific)
Doors Open: 05:00 PM

https://events2022.tpusa.com/events/the-american-comeback-tour-at-university-of-california-berkeley-ee

LOL. You do realize that is a core part of the Christian tradition. She did it well. Black Civil Rights leaders for 100 years did it better.

Well, yes but no one was expecting her to do it. And certainly not since the assassination happened only a couple of weeks before the service!

There's a revival sweeping across America and the demons shudder.
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In reply to socaltownie • 2:53p, 10/22/25
socaltownie said:
The interesting thing is that it may not matter - that elections really are a function of deeply baked in voter sentiments which, in turn, reflect their opinions on right way/wrong way questions that are driven by large macro forces that exist apart from the DC bubble.

The 2024 Democratic primary elections may have been an exception where it was Joe Biden who swept each state but somehow, Kamala Harris' name ended up being on the general election ballot.
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PAC-10-BEAR
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In reply to socaltownie • 2:55p, 10/22/25
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
bearister said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

The problem isn't white Christian nationalism. Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves. Just listen to NPR for half an hour and you can tell they're still clueless.

So coming up with a messaging strategy won't work because one, the Democrats don't know what they believe anymore, and two, Americans distrust legacy media more than ever after years of gaslighting. I hear the Chinese don't consume their own mainstream media because they understand it's just CCP propaganda. Besides, Elon Musk owns Twitter so the Democrats and the Deep State have no control over the de facto town square.

I see only three options:

1. Hope there is a group of sinister elements working within the Trump admin to subvert him, ala Russiagate and Spygate.

2. Hope that a political movement arises from the ashes of the Democratic Party and takes it over much like what the Tea Party and MAGA did with the Republican Party.

3. Continue with violence and targeted killings (Kirk, Trump, Scalise, etc...)

The third option appears trendy with the left these days.


"Democrats still haven't self-reflected to understand why they lost multiple elections to Donald Trump and continue to delude themselves."

When media interviewed No Kings protestors over the weekend to ask why they are protesting and why they think Trump was behaving like a king, most couldn't give any specific examples. One or two were outraged over ICE. I believe you and others here are no different from them.

The "media"????!!! I amjSURE you watched every show and read every newspaper. Do you really believe two randos constitute a sample?

You sir, are exhibit one in what is wrong with our education system.

CNN and NPR. The protestors were emotional, though, I give them credit for that. I'm waiting until you start using ALL CAPS.

Oh this quote from NPR (after 60 seconds of googling). Feels pretty smart on to me

" "Now listen, there are those in this country who have decided at the behest of the President to declare war on Chicago and American cities across this country!" the Democratic official said. "But we are here to stand firm, to stand committed that we will not bend, we will not bow, we will not cower, we will not submit to the authoritarianism that is coming down!"

or

"Adam Livingston, a 35-year-old Marine Corps veteran, wore fatigues and carried a Marine Corps flag.
"Veterans and even active duty service members need to realize that we're loyal to the Constitution and not to a faith, a political party, an ideology, or a man," he said."

or Jenny (I want to give her a hug)

"Jenny Colombo held a rainbow-trimmed sign that said "The Emperor Has No Clothes."
"I feel President Trump is the epitome of that character," Colombo told member station KERA. "Everybody is just walking around him, everybody can see what's going on, and they're all just supporting him blindly.""

You are fact free again. Stop it. YOu are embarassing yourself.

Sounds like typical blah blah you read here on the Bearinsider. Thankfully, this is the minority.
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In reply to socaltownie • 3:16p, 10/22/25
socaltownie said:
bearister said:
"……White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively…"

Oh, I'm sorry, I must be confused, is there a non way to use that term?

I think there is. I am NOT saying that I agree with it but.....

1) "White" They honestly believe that the culture rooted in Great Britain (and to a lesser extent the rest of Northern Europe) is superior than any other - the unique combination of protestant reformation, the expressions of liberty as articulated by Locke and Mills, and what Weber called the protestant work ethic is not only superior but under threat from other forces. They often will conceed that people of other ethnicities could embrace this "whiteness" but it needs to be complete, casting off any connections to the rest of their culture, including accents, tastes, holiday, etc. Mass migration isn't a problem because of its impact on the economy - it is a threat because of the cultures of sending nations/regions and how they threaten the "whiteness" as defined above.

2) "Christian". This usually takes the form of "anti-muslim" but essentially the argument here is that Christianity - especially American evangelical Christianity resting on a literal interpretation of scripture, is a recipe for the good life. Personal redemption is a critical component as it requires a self awareness of sin and the desire to change for a more moral life.

3) Nationalism. This often gets articulate in a neo-isolationist way but is often articulated that the US is best when it places its interests at the forefront and a belief that as a continental power separated by great oceans is is largely immune from the goings on in Eurasia.

I don't think these 3 terms are "pejorative" if what we means by that a term being used to express " contempt or disapproval." The ideas above, I believe, are very wrong but not so beyond the pale as to be laughable. They have very long standing roots in American political thought. The useful thing about WCN as a term is that it nicely in a very shorthand way captures all 3 of these traditions in a simple phrase.

Maybe the Democrats can adopt the antithesis of that left-wing pejorative phrase?

How about "BIPOC Muslim Marxism?"

I prefer Trump's phrase, personally. MAGA - Make America Great Again.
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In reply to PAC-10-BEAR • 3:47p, 10/22/25
Maybe not you. I loved it as it was what my faith calls us to do.
Take care of your Chicken
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In reply to socaltownie • 4:16p, 10/22/25
socaltownie said:
I have been thinking about this for a while and watching Graham Platner's rise and fall underscores what I think is the core challenge.

Does this have anything to do with Twitter exposing pictures of Democratic Senate candidate, Graham Planter's covered up Nazi tattoo?
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In reply to socaltownie • 4:25p, 10/22/25
socaltownie said:
Aunburdened said:


Fact free., You didn't listen to the clip did you. He is arguing for a FREE press and worries that the administration's actions are eroding that freedom. Why do you waste your time spreading falsehoods? I mean is is somehow fun????!!

The press pretended Russiagate was a real investigation, rather than a Clinton campaign op. The press pretended Biden was a coherent President, then pretended they were shocked after the debate when he couldn't put 10 seconds of coherent speaking together. Now we're pretending the problem is that the press isn't free?

If you think the press is afraid to criticize Trump, you are ignorant.
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Big C
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In reply to PAC-10-BEAR • 5:50p, 10/22/25
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

T

That isn't true at all and thus misses the point. The best work on this is by Pew whose "n" is over 30,000 on this question and has been studying it for years with the same battery of questions. Moreover, if you unpack pew, the concern is that

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

"Namely, younger Americans remain far less religious than older adults.
For example, the youngest adults in the survey (ages 18 to 24) are less likely than today's oldest adults (ages 74 and older) to:
  • Identify as Christian (46% vs. 80%)
  • Pray daily (27% vs. 58%)
  • Say they attend religious services at least monthly (25% vs. 49%)
And the youngest adults are more likely than the oldest Americans to be religiously unaffiliated (43% vs. 13%)."

The problem with you (and I really should mute you) is that you argue fact free. I am deeply concerned that you are a product of a Cal education because really either you slept thorugh it, failed to take any courses beyond a very narrow scope or didn';t really understand methods and how to understand data. I shudder.

The Pew research study you noted was prior to the Charlie Kirk assassination, check the dates. There has been a revival since.

The mentioning of the Kirk assassination and attempts on Trump are triggering and should be. The rebirth of the new Democratic Party won't happen until the political violence and rhetoric are fully acknowledged and repented over. This Christian country won't accept it. So far, I see no change.

Oh you have got to be kidding. You really think that we know ANYTHING after a month? Again, you must not have gone to Cal because this is complete idiocy. Will you eat crow when in a year it didn't move the needle.....AT ALL.

The left created an American martyr, a Christian martyr. Imagine that. Did you watch Kirk's funeral service? Erika Kirk publicly forgave the assassin and shocked the world. Truly amazing.

Hey, TPUSA is coming to Berkeley! Get your tickets now, just make sure to watch out for people on roofs!

Starts on Mon, November 10, 2025, 06:30 PM (US/Pacific)
Doors Open: 05:00 PM

https://events2022.tpusa.com/events/the-american-comeback-tour-at-university-of-california-berkeley-ee

LOL. You do realize that is a core part of the Christian tradition. She did it well. Black Civil Rights leaders for 100 years did it better.

Well, yes but no one was expecting her to do it. And certainly not since the assassination happened only a couple of weeks before the service!

There's a revival sweeping across America and the demons shudder.

Down the road a bit, there might be a lot of folks who turn to prayer after they lose their jobs to AI.

These will be the same people whose elected leaders rejected Guaranteed Basic Income because it sounded like socialism.
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In reply to Big C • 12:29p, 10/23/25
Big C said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

T

That isn't true at all and thus misses the point. The best work on this is by Pew whose "n" is over 30,000 on this question and has been studying it for years with the same battery of questions. Moreover, if you unpack pew, the concern is that

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

"Namely, younger Americans remain far less religious than older adults.
For example, the youngest adults in the survey (ages 18 to 24) are less likely than today's oldest adults (ages 74 and older) to:
  • Identify as Christian (46% vs. 80%)
  • Pray daily (27% vs. 58%)
  • Say they attend religious services at least monthly (25% vs. 49%)
And the youngest adults are more likely than the oldest Americans to be religiously unaffiliated (43% vs. 13%)."

The problem with you (and I really should mute you) is that you argue fact free. I am deeply concerned that you are a product of a Cal education because really either you slept thorugh it, failed to take any courses beyond a very narrow scope or didn';t really understand methods and how to understand data. I shudder.

The Pew research study you noted was prior to the Charlie Kirk assassination, check the dates. There has been a revival since.

The mentioning of the Kirk assassination and attempts on Trump are triggering and should be. The rebirth of the new Democratic Party won't happen until the political violence and rhetoric are fully acknowledged and repented over. This Christian country won't accept it. So far, I see no change.

Oh you have got to be kidding. You really think that we know ANYTHING after a month? Again, you must not have gone to Cal because this is complete idiocy. Will you eat crow when in a year it didn't move the needle.....AT ALL.

The left created an American martyr, a Christian martyr. Imagine that. Did you watch Kirk's funeral service? Erika Kirk publicly forgave the assassin and shocked the world. Truly amazing.

Hey, TPUSA is coming to Berkeley! Get your tickets now, just make sure to watch out for people on roofs!

Starts on Mon, November 10, 2025, 06:30 PM (US/Pacific)
Doors Open: 05:00 PM

https://events2022.tpusa.com/events/the-american-comeback-tour-at-university-of-california-berkeley-ee

LOL. You do realize that is a core part of the Christian tradition. She did it well. Black Civil Rights leaders for 100 years did it better.

Well, yes but no one was expecting her to do it. And certainly not since the assassination happened only a couple of weeks before the service!

There's a revival sweeping across America and the demons shudder.

Down the road a bit, there might be a lot of folks who turn to prayer after they lose their jobs to AI.

These will be the same people whose elected leaders rejected Guaranteed Basic Income because it sounded like socialism.

In the meantime, it's day 23 of the Schumer government shutdown and the Senate has voted 12 times and failed 12 times to reopen.

Today, Senate Democrats rejected funding for essential government workers, including air traffic controllers, TSA and military.

The Democrats weren't lying when they said they won't end the Schumer Shutdown until planes are falling out of the sky.
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sycasey
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2:00p, 10/23/25
The issue for MAGA is that at some point it will have to show results, like all political ideologies. They have control right now but it's loose and tenuous. If things don't improve (particularly economically) then their party will be punished like all other parties. Trump is old and won't be around forever; the whole thing can't operate on a cult of personality without him.

I don't doubt that at root of MAGA there is a desire for the country to become more Christian, more white, and more America-first (slam those together and you get White Christian Nationalism, though not all planks of the party may care about all three of these things in equal measure). The further you go into this extreme the more you will lose support from the middle, who mostly just care about pocketbook issues.

Democrats are pretty rudderless right now. It won't always be so, and honestly right now I think you just need to let primaries and other things play out until you hit on something new. IMO it needs to be something that emerges organically from the ground up; people looking for the party leadership to provide guidance are kind of barking up the wrong tree IMO. The Graham Platner thing is a good example: I have no idea if he'll be a good candidate in the general election, but why not just sit back and let the primary run its course? If people in Maine buy his explanation for his tattoos then maybe he'll be stronger for it. If not, then he'll lose. The party itself doesn't need to put the thumb on the scale. That's kind of what got us into this mess in the first place.

The last couple of successful, popular Dem presidents (Clinton, Obama) emerged without originally having strong support from the party establishment. The party coalesced and pushed hard for Hillary and Biden and what did we get for it? Let someone naturally emerge again.
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PAC-10-BEAR
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In reply to sycasey • 2:29p, 10/23/25
sycasey said:
The issue for MAGA is that at some point it will have to show results, like all political ideologies. They have control right now but it's loose and tenuous. If things don't improve (particularly economically) then their party will be punished like all other parties. Trump is old and won't be around forever; the whole thing can't operate on a cult of personality without him.

I don't doubt that at root of MAGA there is a desire for the country to become more Christian, more white, and more America-first (slam those together and you get White Christian Nationalism, though not all planks of the party may care about all three of these things in equal measure). The further you go into this extreme the more you will lose support from the middle, who mostly just care about pocketbook issues.

Trump is hardly a right wing idealogue and won the popular vote based on what you referred to as "extreme". The left can't accept that the Democrats lost to a populist candidate again so they use a pejorative phrase to demean not just Trump but more than half the country to make their delusion make sense to them.
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sycasey
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In reply to PAC-10-BEAR • 2:51p, 10/23/25
PAC-10-BEAR said:
sycasey said:
The issue for MAGA is that at some point it will have to show results, like all political ideologies. They have control right now but it's loose and tenuous. If things don't improve (particularly economically) then their party will be punished like all other parties. Trump is old and won't be around forever; the whole thing can't operate on a cult of personality without him.

I don't doubt that at root of MAGA there is a desire for the country to become more Christian, more white, and more America-first (slam those together and you get White Christian Nationalism, though not all planks of the party may care about all three of these things in equal measure). The further you go into this extreme the more you will lose support from the middle, who mostly just care about pocketbook issues.

Trump is hardly a right wing idealogue and won the popular vote based on what you referred to as "extreme". The left can't accept that the Democrats lost to a populist candidate again so they use a pejorative phrase to demean not just Trump but more than half the country to make their delusion make sense to them.

You guys can keep telling yourselves that, but Trump has only narrowly won the popular vote once and when in office has almost never been above 50% approval. That suggests that his support is very tenuous.

I'll use immigration as an example: I think the Trump Administration does have a certain mandate to reduce immigration. The voters pretty clearly expressed that as a preference. Where you can go to extremes are in things like:

1. Sending people directly to prison without trial.
2. Aggressively separating young families and traumatizing children in the street.
3. Sending troops into American cities.
4. Arresting/detaining American citizens without cause.
5. Targeting legal immigrants for speech the government disagrees with.

The public will support a harder line on immigration (for now). The above things will not be broadly supported.
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PAC-10-BEAR
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In reply to sycasey • 3:02p, 10/23/25
sycasey said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
sycasey said:
The issue for MAGA is that at some point it will have to show results, like all political ideologies. They have control right now but it's loose and tenuous. If things don't improve (particularly economically) then their party will be punished like all other parties. Trump is old and won't be around forever; the whole thing can't operate on a cult of personality without him.

I don't doubt that at root of MAGA there is a desire for the country to become more Christian, more white, and more America-first (slam those together and you get White Christian Nationalism, though not all planks of the party may care about all three of these things in equal measure). The further you go into this extreme the more you will lose support from the middle, who mostly just care about pocketbook issues.

Trump is hardly a right wing idealogue and won the popular vote based on what you referred to as "extreme". The left can't accept that the Democrats lost to a populist candidate again so they use a pejorative phrase to demean not just Trump but more than half the country to make their delusion make sense to them.

You guys can keep telling yourselves that, but Trump has only narrowly won the popular vote once and when in office has almost never been above 50% approval. That suggests that his support is very tenuous.

I'll use immigration as an example: I think the Trump Administration does have a certain mandate to reduce immigration. The voters pretty clearly expressed that as a preference. Where you can go to extremes are in things like:

1. Sending people directly to prison without trial.
2. Aggressively separating young families and traumatizing children in the street.
3. Sending troops into American cities.
4. Arresting/detaining American citizens without cause.
5. Targeting legal immigrants for speech the government disagrees with.

The public will support a harder line on immigration (for now). The above things will not be broadly supported.

Referring to more than half the country as extreme or deplorable or any other pejorative isn't going to help the Democratic Party win more votes. Instead of trying to learn from the mistakes they've made since Trump entered politics, they are doubling down on them. This is why they are in the state they are in as you mentioned.

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sycasey
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In reply to PAC-10-BEAR • 3:08p, 10/23/25
PAC-10-BEAR said:
sycasey said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
sycasey said:
The issue for MAGA is that at some point it will have to show results, like all political ideologies. They have control right now but it's loose and tenuous. If things don't improve (particularly economically) then their party will be punished like all other parties. Trump is old and won't be around forever; the whole thing can't operate on a cult of personality without him.

I don't doubt that at root of MAGA there is a desire for the country to become more Christian, more white, and more America-first (slam those together and you get White Christian Nationalism, though not all planks of the party may care about all three of these things in equal measure). The further you go into this extreme the more you will lose support from the middle, who mostly just care about pocketbook issues.

Trump is hardly a right wing idealogue and won the popular vote based on what you referred to as "extreme". The left can't accept that the Democrats lost to a populist candidate again so they use a pejorative phrase to demean not just Trump but more than half the country to make their delusion make sense to them.

You guys can keep telling yourselves that, but Trump has only narrowly won the popular vote once and when in office has almost never been above 50% approval. That suggests that his support is very tenuous.

I'll use immigration as an example: I think the Trump Administration does have a certain mandate to reduce immigration. The voters pretty clearly expressed that as a preference. Where you can go to extremes are in things like:

1. Sending people directly to prison without trial.
2. Aggressively separating young families and traumatizing children in the street.
3. Sending troops into American cities.
4. Arresting/detaining American citizens without cause.
5. Targeting legal immigrants for speech the government disagrees with.

The public will support a harder line on immigration (for now). The above things will not be broadly supported.

Referring to more than half the country as extreme or deplorable or any other pejorative isn't going to help the Democratic Party win more votes. Instead of trying to learn from the mistakes they've made since Trump entered politics, they are doubling down on them. This is why they are in the state they are in as you mentioned.

Okay, let's have it: what do you think Democrats should do?

Obviously this cannot include "Just do everything Trump does" because someone else is already doing that. What would be viable opposition?

I will also note that I did not say anyone should define all Trump voters as extreme: I said there were some aspects to Trumpism that can gain popular support and some that can't.
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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In reply to PAC-10-BEAR • 5:30p, 10/23/25
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
PAC-10-BEAR said:
socaltownie said:
At the heart the MAGA project is about White Christian Nationalism. I really do NOT want to use that term pejoratively but it encompasses the central issue of a reactionist attack against 4 big trends in the first quarter of the 21st century

The bad guys shot and killed white Christian nationalism and church attendance and Turning Point USA enrollment exploded across the country. Huge fail!

T

That isn't true at all and thus misses the point. The best work on this is by Pew whose "n" is over 30,000 on this question and has been studying it for years with the same battery of questions. Moreover, if you unpack pew, the concern is that

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

"Namely, younger Americans remain far less religious than older adults.
For example, the youngest adults in the survey (ages 18 to 24) are less likely than today's oldest adults (ages 74 and older) to:
  • Identify as Christian (46% vs. 80%)
  • Pray daily (27% vs. 58%)
  • Say they attend religious services at least monthly (25% vs. 49%)
And the youngest adults are more likely than the oldest Americans to be religiously unaffiliated (43% vs. 13%)."

The problem with you (and I really should mute you) is that you argue fact free. I am deeply concerned that you are a product of a Cal education because really either you slept thorugh it, failed to take any courses beyond a very narrow scope or didn';t really understand methods and how to understand data. I shudder.

The Pew research study you noted was prior to the Charlie Kirk assassination, check the dates. There has been a revival since.

The mentioning of the Kirk assassination and attempts on Trump are triggering and should be. The rebirth of the new Democratic Party won't happen until the political violence and rhetoric are fully acknowledged and repented over. This Christian country won't accept it. So far, I see no change.

Oh you have got to be kidding. You really think that we know ANYTHING after a month? Again, you must not have gone to Cal because this is complete idiocy. Will you eat crow when in a year it didn't move the needle.....AT ALL.

The left created an American martyr, a Christian martyr. Imagine that. Did you watch Kirk's funeral service? Erika Kirk publicly forgave the assassin and shocked the world. Truly amazing.

Hey, TPUSA is coming to Berkeley! Get your tickets now, just make sure to watch out for people on roofs!

Starts on Mon, November 10, 2025, 06:30 PM (US/Pacific)
Doors Open: 05:00 PM

https://events2022.tpusa.com/events/the-american-comeback-tour-at-university-of-california-berkeley-ee

LOL. You do realize that is a core part of the Christian tradition. She did it well. Black Civil Rights leaders for 100 years did it better.

Well, yes but no one was expecting her to do it. And certainly not since the assassination happened only a couple of weeks before the service!

There's a revival sweeping across America and the demons shudder.
How about that Rapture a couple of weeks ago!

Oh wait...
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