They definitely always had the pitching, but going into that first championship season they also had a crappy offense and had to raise it up to at least be average to even give themselves a shot. Adding guys like Huff, Burrell, Ross, helped with that (plus Posey being called up).dajo9 said:I think the story of the Giants World Series wins is the age old adage that good pitching beats good hitting. Disclaimer - I hate the Giants and didn't watch any of it.Unit2Sucks said:You need look no further than what happened across the bay. Sabean had Bruce Bochy, great young pitchers, a strong bullpen, Buster Posey, Pablo Sandoval and a bunch of retread overpaid position players that Billy Beane wouldn't have paid with someone else's money. Oh plus Barry Zito. In some ways you could say the Giants succeeded by doing exactly the opposite - but they didn't do it with low payroll.dajo9 said:
My argument is NOT that the A's are doing anything wrong. As has been said, the A's only option is to find value cheaply. Every time they make the playoffs they are overachieving as an organization. Flukes can happen, but in general to win a World Series these days you need a mix of sabremetrics but you also need players like Derek Jeter, Johnny Damon or Mookie Betts who can make things happen against above average teams.
What's interesting is that even though they had a bunch of head scratchers like Cody Ross, Pat the Bat and Aubrey Huff, there was a method to their madness and they used a lot of the same techniques that Beane did. Here's an interesting article from Baseball Prospectus arguing not to buy the reductionist approach that the Giants were doing it the old fashioned way.
This whole episode has taught me that the electing class is completely weak-minded.bearister said:
" CNN and MSNBC are just not the same. Those networks will report on bad things done by Democrats.."
Those networks actively undermined and then sank HRC Presidential bid in 2016......and then put the "Who me?" expression on their faces after the orange piece of human garbage "won."
bearister said:
"But what the hell is going on with Graham? I am not interested in any rumors but would love to read a well researched biography when this is over."
I have no facts, but just enough life and work experience to trust my instincts on this:
He is being blackmailed, pure and simple. It is the same way J. Edgar Hoover extended his reign of terror so long. He had a dossier on everyone chock full of 8 x 10 glossies.
This is 100% accuratebearister said:
" CNN and MSNBC are just not the same. Those networks will report on bad things done by Democrats.."
Those networks actively undermined and then sank HRC Presidential bid in 2016......and then put the "Who me?" expression on their faces after the orange piece of human garbage "won."
After watching the documentary, The Dissident, I'm thinking Putin and the Saudis have every secret he ever crafted on his phone.Unit2Sucks said:
For his sake, I hope Graham is being blackmailed because otherwise he is doing everything wrong. Hard to imagine anyone could construct a narrative in defense of Graham at this point given how often and loudly he has excoriated people who he now staunchly defends and behavior he now proudly exhibits.
Strange. Did not know about Rupert Everett as a cautionary tale. I always assumed he was gay. My Best Friend's Wedding (where he was awesome) was over 20 years ago.bearister said:
People still having to hide they are gay is very sad to me, but unfortunately the planet has not fully evolved on the issue. In Hollywood, the lesson of Rupert Everett still has everyone quaking in their boots. He went from King of the RomComs to out of work once he came out.
bearister said:
People still having to hide they are gay is very sad to me, but unfortunately the planet has not fully evolved on the issue. In Hollywood, the lesson of Rupert Everett still has everyone quaking in their boots. He went from King of the RomComs to out of work once he came out.
And I remember he played the lead in the remake of Oscar Wilde's Importance of Being Earnest (don't remember the movie title) after My Best Friend's Wedding.sycasey said:bearister said:
People still having to hide they are gay is very sad to me, but unfortunately the planet has not fully evolved on the issue. In Hollywood, the lesson of Rupert Everett still has everyone quaking in their boots. He went from King of the RomComs to out of work once he came out.
Was he really the king of romcoms? I think he only did one, and in it he literally played the gay best friend. He was always more of a character actor, not a major star.
Quote:Quote:
I want to talk to the Trump supporters for a minute. I don't know who you are, and I don't know why you like this guy. I think what you like about him, he appears to be strong when the rest of us are weak, he's a very successful businessman and he's going to make everything great. He's going to take all of the problems in the world and put them in a box, and make your life better.
That's what he's selling. Here's what you're buying. He's a race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot. He doesn't represent my party. He doesn't represent the values that the men and women in uniform are fighting for...
...What Mr. Trump is doing and I don't think he has a clue about anything, he's just trying to get his numbers up and get the biggest reaction he can he's putting our soldiers and diplomats at risk, he's empowering the enemy ..
.
... and you know how to make America great again? Tell Donald Trump to go to hell.
calbear93 said:Strange. Did not know about Rupert Everett as a cautionary tale. I always assumed he was gay. My Best Friend's Wedding (where he was awesome) was over 20 years ago.bearister said:
People still having to hide they are gay is very sad to me, but unfortunately the planet has not fully evolved on the issue. In Hollywood, the lesson of Rupert Everett still has everyone quaking in their boots. He went from King of the RomComs to out of work once he came out.
bearister said:calbear93 said:Strange. Did not know about Rupert Everett as a cautionary tale. I always assumed he was gay. My Best Friend's Wedding (where he was awesome) was over 20 years ago.bearister said:
People still having to hide they are gay is very sad to me, but unfortunately the planet has not fully evolved on the issue. In Hollywood, the lesson of Rupert Everett still has everyone quaking in their boots. He went from King of the RomComs to out of work once he came out.
Well, I suppose I overstated his career, but...
Rupert Everett: I Never Got a Job in Hollywood After Coming Out
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/rupert-everett-i-job-hollywood-66579
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/news/rupert-everett-i-job-hollywood-66579
The problem with bending the first time under blackmail pressure is once you do it one time, then they suddenly have ANOTHER thing over on you - something ELSE they can use against you - that you bent instead of stood up with NO.calbear93 said:bearister said:
"But what the hell is going on with Graham? I am not interested in any rumors but would love to read a well researched biography when this is over."
I have no facts, but just enough life and work experience to trust my instincts on this:
He is being blackmailed, pure and simple. It is the same way J. Edgar Hoover extended his reign of terror so long. He had a dossier on everyone chock full of 8 x 10 glossies.
If it is just a matter of him being gay, I wish he would just come out. I would feel bad for him that he for whatever reason feels ashamed for who he is other than the fact that, if true, he is approaching this in the weakest way possible. The public will forgive that he betrayed his beliefs because he was blackmailed, the public won't care about his sexual orientation, he can see those who blackmailed him be criminally charged, and he never has to worry again. Now, if he exploited someone underaged, he better run.
Ding Ding Ding Ding!sycasey said:
But of course the situation is different for a conservative Southern politician.
What are they going to say? Hey, if you don't listen to us, then we will show the world that we have been criminally blackmailing a government official? That will show you? And I will laugh at you from a federal prison?concordtom said:The problem with bending the first time under blackmail pressure is once you do it one time, then they suddenly have ANOTHER thing over on you - something ELSE they can use against you - that you bent instead of stood up with NO.calbear93 said:bearister said:
"But what the hell is going on with Graham? I am not interested in any rumors but would love to read a well researched biography when this is over."
I have no facts, but just enough life and work experience to trust my instincts on this:
He is being blackmailed, pure and simple. It is the same way J. Edgar Hoover extended his reign of terror so long. He had a dossier on everyone chock full of 8 x 10 glossies.
If it is just a matter of him being gay, I wish he would just come out. I would feel bad for him that he for whatever reason feels ashamed for who he is other than the fact that, if true, he is approaching this in the weakest way possible. The public will forgive that he betrayed his beliefs because he was blackmailed, the public won't care about his sexual orientation, he can see those who blackmailed him be criminally charged, and he never has to worry again. Now, if he exploited someone underaged, he better run.
A second problem follows: they know they have push you, and so they begin to push again and again, and every time you do what they want you to do for them rather than say NO is yet ANOTHER thing (each time!) that they have on you.
So, probably at this point, it's FAR beyond them simply having photos and videos of him with his dalliances. It's that they blackmailed him and he gave in time and time and time again.
At this point, I imagine the dossier on him is VERY thick. The gayness of it is a pea. The fact that he's become a tool for whomever would push him over is a mountain.
His career and dignity, he knows, would be over.
The only thing that can be done is to vote him out. Unfortunately, he just won again for 6 more years.
I'm with Dajo where he criticizes "America". Because - how do you fix this?
Billy Martin would not have pulled Tim Keough in the 28th inning of a random game in July after his arm literally pulled out of the socket and dropped on the ground.dajo9 said:OaktownBear said:By the way. To you and concord, Billy Ball refers to the era when Billy Martin was manager of the A's, not to the Moneyball era.dajo9 said:I don't know about AI but Billy Ball has its limitations. It clearly seems to work in June but I don't think it works in the postseason. I think the reason for that is in the postseason you are no longer playing against the average. You are playing against above average. That means your home runs per strikeout rate goes down and we end up with boring postseason games where teams strike out over and over again (using one basic metric as an example).concordtom said:Right. That's my point. Just apply Billy Ball to Politics. That's what YOU were saying, no?calbear93 said:
Well, the power of data analytics as opposed to assumptions or human analysis first became famous to regular folks due to baseball and Billy Bean. Things that people assumed were most valuable were not, and the Oakland A's were able to pay for valuable players for much less based on things that data actually showed were relevant to scoring runs, such as on base percentage and slugging percentage. And that insight did not come from some genius baseball person but from a nerdy mathematician from Harvard who barely knew what baseball was.
I believe Billy Ball may help you get into the postseason but the oldtimers have it right for winning championships. Contact. Stolen bases. Manufacturing runs. It's no surprise to me that the marquee player on 2 of the last 3 championships is a classic old school ballplayer who is known for contact, manufacturing runs, and smart baseball - Mookie Betts. The other championship team, the Washington Nationals, lost its Billy Ball hero, Bryce Harper, the previous year. In October, they were better without him. In my opinion, if your star slugger is famous for walks, you have a problem.
Billy Martin would not have pulled Blake Snell from a World Series game in the 5th inning with a 1-0 lead after 9 strikeouts and 1 hit.
Maybe Graham is just a loser who wants to try following the cool kids. He tried to act like a bipartisan guy when John McCain was alive, since McCain liked the bipartisan thing. Now McCain is dead and he needs to find another cool kid to fall in with, so he goes with the Trumpies.calbear93 said:What are they going to say? Hey, if you don't listen to us, then we will show the world that we have been criminally blackmailing a government official? That will show you? And I will laugh at you from a federal prison?concordtom said:The problem with bending the first time under blackmail pressure is once you do it one time, then they suddenly have ANOTHER thing over on you - something ELSE they can use against you - that you bent instead of stood up with NO.calbear93 said:bearister said:
"But what the hell is going on with Graham? I am not interested in any rumors but would love to read a well researched biography when this is over."
I have no facts, but just enough life and work experience to trust my instincts on this:
He is being blackmailed, pure and simple. It is the same way J. Edgar Hoover extended his reign of terror so long. He had a dossier on everyone chock full of 8 x 10 glossies.
If it is just a matter of him being gay, I wish he would just come out. I would feel bad for him that he for whatever reason feels ashamed for who he is other than the fact that, if true, he is approaching this in the weakest way possible. The public will forgive that he betrayed his beliefs because he was blackmailed, the public won't care about his sexual orientation, he can see those who blackmailed him be criminally charged, and he never has to worry again. Now, if he exploited someone underaged, he better run.
A second problem follows: they know they have push you, and so they begin to push again and again, and every time you do what they want you to do for them rather than say NO is yet ANOTHER thing (each time!) that they have on you.
So, probably at this point, it's FAR beyond them simply having photos and videos of him with his dalliances. It's that they blackmailed him and he gave in time and time and time again.
At this point, I imagine the dossier on him is VERY thick. The gayness of it is a pea. The fact that he's become a tool for whomever would push him over is a mountain.
His career and dignity, he knows, would be over.
The only thing that can be done is to vote him out. Unfortunately, he just won again for 6 more years.
I'm with Dajo where he criticizes "America". Because - how do you fix this?
That is why I am really curious to understand what is going on behind the scenes and not too interested in unsubstantiated rumors. Hawley, Cruz, McCarthy - clearly political ambition. Gaetz, Greene - losers who lovingly lick boots because that is better than anything else their talent justifies. McConnell - power hungry and long term strategy. But Graham and the level of bending the knee that he has done when he used to be considered one of the more bi-partisan senators is mind boggling.
AunBear89 said:
On what planet are these the cool kids?
sycasey said:Maybe Graham is just a loser who wants to try following the cool kids. He tried to act like a bipartisan guy when John McCain was alive, since McCain liked the bipartisan thing. Now McCain is dead and he needs to find another cool kid to fall in with, so he goes with the Trumpies.calbear93 said:What are they going to say? Hey, if you don't listen to us, then we will show the world that we have been criminally blackmailing a government official? That will show you? And I will laugh at you from a federal prison?concordtom said:The problem with bending the first time under blackmail pressure is once you do it one time, then they suddenly have ANOTHER thing over on you - something ELSE they can use against you - that you bent instead of stood up with NO.calbear93 said:bearister said:
"But what the hell is going on with Graham? I am not interested in any rumors but would love to read a well researched biography when this is over."
I have no facts, but just enough life and work experience to trust my instincts on this:
He is being blackmailed, pure and simple. It is the same way J. Edgar Hoover extended his reign of terror so long. He had a dossier on everyone chock full of 8 x 10 glossies.
If it is just a matter of him being gay, I wish he would just come out. I would feel bad for him that he for whatever reason feels ashamed for who he is other than the fact that, if true, he is approaching this in the weakest way possible. The public will forgive that he betrayed his beliefs because he was blackmailed, the public won't care about his sexual orientation, he can see those who blackmailed him be criminally charged, and he never has to worry again. Now, if he exploited someone underaged, he better run.
A second problem follows: they know they have push you, and so they begin to push again and again, and every time you do what they want you to do for them rather than say NO is yet ANOTHER thing (each time!) that they have on you.
So, probably at this point, it's FAR beyond them simply having photos and videos of him with his dalliances. It's that they blackmailed him and he gave in time and time and time again.
At this point, I imagine the dossier on him is VERY thick. The gayness of it is a pea. The fact that he's become a tool for whomever would push him over is a mountain.
His career and dignity, he knows, would be over.
The only thing that can be done is to vote him out. Unfortunately, he just won again for 6 more years.
I'm with Dajo where he criticizes "America". Because - how do you fix this?
That is why I am really curious to understand what is going on behind the scenes and not too interested in unsubstantiated rumors. Hawley, Cruz, McCarthy - clearly political ambition. Gaetz, Greene - losers who lovingly lick boots because that is better than anything else their talent justifies. McConnell - power hungry and long term strategy. But Graham and the level of bending the knee that he has done when he used to be considered one of the more bi-partisan senators is mind boggling.
Maybe you are right.sycasey said:Maybe Graham is just a loser who wants to try following the cool kids. He tried to act like a bipartisan guy when John McCain was alive, since McCain liked the bipartisan thing. Now McCain is dead and he needs to find another cool kid to fall in with, so he goes with the Trumpies.calbear93 said:What are they going to say? Hey, if you don't listen to us, then we will show the world that we have been criminally blackmailing a government official? That will show you? And I will laugh at you from a federal prison?concordtom said:The problem with bending the first time under blackmail pressure is once you do it one time, then they suddenly have ANOTHER thing over on you - something ELSE they can use against you - that you bent instead of stood up with NO.calbear93 said:bearister said:
"But what the hell is going on with Graham? I am not interested in any rumors but would love to read a well researched biography when this is over."
I have no facts, but just enough life and work experience to trust my instincts on this:
He is being blackmailed, pure and simple. It is the same way J. Edgar Hoover extended his reign of terror so long. He had a dossier on everyone chock full of 8 x 10 glossies.
If it is just a matter of him being gay, I wish he would just come out. I would feel bad for him that he for whatever reason feels ashamed for who he is other than the fact that, if true, he is approaching this in the weakest way possible. The public will forgive that he betrayed his beliefs because he was blackmailed, the public won't care about his sexual orientation, he can see those who blackmailed him be criminally charged, and he never has to worry again. Now, if he exploited someone underaged, he better run.
A second problem follows: they know they have push you, and so they begin to push again and again, and every time you do what they want you to do for them rather than say NO is yet ANOTHER thing (each time!) that they have on you.
So, probably at this point, it's FAR beyond them simply having photos and videos of him with his dalliances. It's that they blackmailed him and he gave in time and time and time again.
At this point, I imagine the dossier on him is VERY thick. The gayness of it is a pea. The fact that he's become a tool for whomever would push him over is a mountain.
His career and dignity, he knows, would be over.
The only thing that can be done is to vote him out. Unfortunately, he just won again for 6 more years.
I'm with Dajo where he criticizes "America". Because - how do you fix this?
That is why I am really curious to understand what is going on behind the scenes and not too interested in unsubstantiated rumors. Hawley, Cruz, McCarthy - clearly political ambition. Gaetz, Greene - losers who lovingly lick boots because that is better than anything else their talent justifies. McConnell - power hungry and long term strategy. But Graham and the level of bending the knee that he has done when he used to be considered one of the more bi-partisan senators is mind boggling.
When he led the totally-not-a-witchhunt impeachment of Bill Clinton? How quaint that something like that was impeachable just a few decades ago. If the bar were that low now, Trump would have been impeached ... checks notes ... 185 times in the last 4 years.dajo9 said:sycasey said:Maybe Graham is just a loser who wants to try following the cool kids. He tried to act like a bipartisan guy when John McCain was alive, since McCain liked the bipartisan thing. Now McCain is dead and he needs to find another cool kid to fall in with, so he goes with the Trumpies.calbear93 said:What are they going to say? Hey, if you don't listen to us, then we will show the world that we have been criminally blackmailing a government official? That will show you? And I will laugh at you from a federal prison?concordtom said:The problem with bending the first time under blackmail pressure is once you do it one time, then they suddenly have ANOTHER thing over on you - something ELSE they can use against you - that you bent instead of stood up with NO.calbear93 said:bearister said:
"But what the hell is going on with Graham? I am not interested in any rumors but would love to read a well researched biography when this is over."
I have no facts, but just enough life and work experience to trust my instincts on this:
He is being blackmailed, pure and simple. It is the same way J. Edgar Hoover extended his reign of terror so long. He had a dossier on everyone chock full of 8 x 10 glossies.
If it is just a matter of him being gay, I wish he would just come out. I would feel bad for him that he for whatever reason feels ashamed for who he is other than the fact that, if true, he is approaching this in the weakest way possible. The public will forgive that he betrayed his beliefs because he was blackmailed, the public won't care about his sexual orientation, he can see those who blackmailed him be criminally charged, and he never has to worry again. Now, if he exploited someone underaged, he better run.
A second problem follows: they know they have push you, and so they begin to push again and again, and every time you do what they want you to do for them rather than say NO is yet ANOTHER thing (each time!) that they have on you.
So, probably at this point, it's FAR beyond them simply having photos and videos of him with his dalliances. It's that they blackmailed him and he gave in time and time and time again.
At this point, I imagine the dossier on him is VERY thick. The gayness of it is a pea. The fact that he's become a tool for whomever would push him over is a mountain.
His career and dignity, he knows, would be over.
The only thing that can be done is to vote him out. Unfortunately, he just won again for 6 more years.
I'm with Dajo where he criticizes "America". Because - how do you fix this?
That is why I am really curious to understand what is going on behind the scenes and not too interested in unsubstantiated rumors. Hawley, Cruz, McCarthy - clearly political ambition. Gaetz, Greene - losers who lovingly lick boots because that is better than anything else their talent justifies. McConnell - power hungry and long term strategy. But Graham and the level of bending the knee that he has done when he used to be considered one of the more bi-partisan senators is mind boggling.
When was Lyndsey Graham ever bipartisan?
1. The movie is more of a feel good personal story and doesn't nearly portray what was going on.dajo9 said:The movie, Moneyball begins by disparaging Johnny Damon's value. Damon was a key component of breaking the curse - he was a championship type ballplayer, not a sabremetrics type ballplayer. Theo Epstein doesn't break the curse without a player like Johnny Damon.calbear93 said:JeffBear07 said:Every time Billy Beane sees the name Theo Epstein, he dies a little bit inside.Quote:
The number one thing the A's could have done to win was spend like the Yankees. The number 2 thing they could have done was to THEN marry analytics with spending like the Yankees.
Wasn't the Red Sox job offered to Beane first? He could have been the one to break the curse.
You hit the bullseye.OaktownBear said:1. The movie is more of a feel good personal story and doesn't nearly portray what was going on.dajo9 said:The movie, Moneyball begins by disparaging Johnny Damon's value. Damon was a key component of breaking the curse - he was a championship type ballplayer, not a sabremetrics type ballplayer. Theo Epstein doesn't break the curse without a player like Johnny Damon.calbear93 said:JeffBear07 said:Every time Billy Beane sees the name Theo Epstein, he dies a little bit inside.Quote:
The number one thing the A's could have done to win was spend like the Yankees. The number 2 thing they could have done was to THEN marry analytics with spending like the Yankees.
Wasn't the Red Sox job offered to Beane first? He could have been the one to break the curse.
2. You are still missing the point. Overvalued doesn't mean bad player. No one was saying that Damon was a bad player. But a team with limited funds was not going to pay Johnny Damon because they could get more value out of players who make less money. Teams with virtually unlimited funds don't care about value. Johnny Damon made sense for the Red Sox. He made no sense for the A's because of what they would have needed to give up
Mike Trout is a phenomenal baseball player. He makes $37.7M. The A's entire payroll is $69M and $13.5 of that is getting paid by the Texas Rangers this year. If the A's signed Mike Trout, they'd have nothing left to spend at any other position.
Quite frankly, there was probably "a player like Johnny Damon" making similar money that would have been more successful for the Sox than Johnny Damon, but they weren't available for the Red Sox to sign. But what you are missing in this is that if you are choosing between paying $20M for a $15M player and spending $5M for a $10M player, the A's need to pick the latter because that extra $15M is $15M they can't spend on the rest of their roster. The Red Sox don't give a damn about the extra money because it doesn't prevent them from signing whoever they want at other positions, so they need to do the former. The Red Sox still have the better player. And do that 26 times and you have the comparative roster between the two. The only way the A's ever have a better player at any roster spot is by developing the player themselves before the player is no longer under team control.
If you take away Elvis Andrus, who the A's just traded for and as part of the trade they got cash offsetting almost his entire salary, the A's highest paid player makes less than the average salary on the highest payroll teams. The Dodgers have 12 players that make more than the A's highest paid player.
The point of Moneyball was not that Scott Hatteberg was better than Johnny Damon. Is a $5 hamburger better than a $50 steak? Clearly the steak is better but the hamburger is a better value. If you have $50 to spend, you buy the steak. How about if you have $50 and 10 people to feed? Again, the lesson isn't that Moneyball doesn't work. It is that being cheap doesn't work.
And sorry, sabermetrics works. Mookie Betts is one of the best players in the game based on sabermetrics. The Dodgers were the best sabermetrics team. Blindly following sabermetrics is a bad strategy as is blindly following anything. But overall, sabermetrics works.
