OT: Official Warriors vs Celtics 2022 NBA Finals Thread

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Big C
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BearSD said:

BearForce2 said:

This feels like the kind of game where Green gets ejected.
Jaylen tried his best to get Draymond ejected. Just couldn't convince the refs to do it.

Seemed like a lot of the Celtics were goading him and I was afraid he was going to take the bait, even after he left the game.
calumnus
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graguna said:

bearister said:

No one that watched Jaylen play every one of his games as a Bear can honestly say that they saw this coming.

Yes, he had the requisite explosiveness, but poor shooting doesn't usually radically turn around like this. He also improved his handle Big Time.

*Jaylen doesn't just hand check Klay, he grabs the bridge logo on the center of his jersey.
Jaylen has a combo of athleticism, talent and a growth mindset. I can honestly say I saw this coming. When he left CAL, I predicted he'd be an all star, retire early and come back to CAL to get his degree.
I'm sticking by that.


I was/am in that camp too.
concernedparent
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bearister said:

No one that watched Jaylen play every one of his games as a Bear can honestly say that they saw this coming.

Yes, he had the requisite explosiveness, but poor shooting doesn't usually radically turn around like this. He also improved his handle Big Time.

*Jaylen doesn't just hand check Klay, he grabs the bridge logo on the center of his jersey.
It seems like a lot of people did. He was projected to go anywhere from 3-7. You don't pick that high unless they can contribute immediately or you see high end potential.
bearister
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Harvard.
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bearister
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BearSD said:

BearForce2 said:

This feels like the kind of game where Green gets ejected.
Jaylen tried his best to get Draymond ejected. Just couldn't convince the refs to do it.


Draymond doesn't need any help in that department…..and he is an expert at making his move that clobbers someone look like it was purely accidental.
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DiabloWags
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graguna said:

bearister said:

No one that watched Jaylen play every one of his games as a Bear can honestly say that they saw this coming.

Yes, he had the requisite explosiveness, but poor shooting doesn't usually radically turn around like this. He also improved his handle Big Time.

*Jaylen doesn't just hand check Klay, he grabs the bridge logo on the center of his jersey.
Jaylen has a combo of athleticism, talent and a growth mindset. I can honestly say I saw this coming. When he left CAL, I predicted he'd be an all star, retire early and come back to CAL to get his degree.
I'm sticking by that.

I certainly am in the same "camp" as Bearister when it came to Jaylen.
I thought he was a terrific BUST at CAL. In fact, in the Pac-12 Championship Tournament he had more turnrovers than points!
bearister
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His patented move was to drive down the center of the key in a straight line knocking defenders over like so many bowling pins.

Early into the 2nd half he was on the bench with 3 offensive fouls.

…..but I also remember that his first move to the basket was so quick that the defender looked like his feet were set in concrete.
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BearSD
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bearister said:

BearSD said:

BearForce2 said:

This feels like the kind of game where Green gets ejected.
Jaylen tried his best to get Draymond ejected. Just couldn't convince the refs to do it.

Draymond doesn't need any help in that department…..and he is an expert at making his move that clobbers someone look like it was purely accidental.
Draymond does have a short fuse, but Jaylen was taking a page out of the Pat Beverley playbook for provoking opponents.
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DiabloWags
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In an interview last night after the game, Brown said that Draymond was trying to grab/pull his pants down.
I didnt see that at all.

bearister
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Since the Celtics got beat in The City yesterday, here is a picture of same taken from my car on the Bay Bridge at 9:30 am this morning. It is no wonder that people travel from all over the world to see this. I have lived in the Bay Area my entire life and am still in awe.

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joe amos yaks
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DiabloWags said:

In an interview last night after the game, Brown said that Draymond was trying to grab/pull his pants down.
I didnt see that at all.


After the play Green helped himself up to his feet by grabbing the cuff of Brown's shorts.
"Those who say don't know, and those who know don't say." - LT
bearister
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DiabloWags said:

graguna said:

bearister said:

No one that watched Jaylen play every one of his games as a Bear can honestly say that they saw this coming.

Yes, he had the requisite explosiveness, but poor shooting doesn't usually radically turn around like this. He also improved his handle Big Time.

*Jaylen doesn't just hand check Klay, he grabs the bridge logo on the center of his jersey.
Jaylen has a combo of athleticism, talent and a growth mindset. I can honestly say I saw this coming. When he left CAL, I predicted he'd be an all star, retire early and come back to CAL to get his degree.
I'm sticking by that.

I certainly am in the same "camp" as Bearister when it came to Jaylen.
I thought he was a terrific BUST at CAL. In fact, in the Pac-12 Championship Tournament he had more turnrovers than points!



Jaylen Brown Cal stats:

G 34; PTS 14.6; TRB 5.4; AST 2

Ivan Rabb Cal stats:

G 65; PTS 13.2; TRB 9.4; AST 1.2




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HoopDreams
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ducky23 said:

Here's the adjustments I see the warriors making

- put draymond on brown and klay on horford. Solves two problems at once. Draymond can contain brown and klay won't drift from horford as much as draymond has a tendency to. If hordford wants to post klay, the warriors will take that


If the warriors just think Boston is going to stop making open threes because of the percentages, they're gojng to lose. Hopefully Kerr makes the adjustment


You nailed this Duck
bearister
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Draymond on Jaylen has potential.

Boston Celtics rookie Jaylen Brown's dad is a 7-foot, professional heavyweight boxer - masslive.com


https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2016/08/jaylen_browns_dad_is_a_7-foot.html


Jaylen Brown looks up to his grandfather, Willie, who sparred against the greats, including Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, and Sonny Liston.COURTESY/JAYLEN BROWN
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DiabloWags
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bearister said:

DiabloWags said:

graguna said:

bearister said:

No one that watched Jaylen play every one of his games as a Bear can honestly say that they saw this coming.

Yes, he had the requisite explosiveness, but poor shooting doesn't usually radically turn around like this. He also improved his handle Big Time.

*Jaylen doesn't just hand check Klay, he grabs the bridge logo on the center of his jersey.
Jaylen has a combo of athleticism, talent and a growth mindset. I can honestly say I saw this coming. When he left CAL, I predicted he'd be an all star, retire early and come back to CAL to get his degree.
I'm sticking by that.

I certainly am in the same "camp" as Bearister when it came to Jaylen.
I thought he was a terrific BUST at CAL. In fact, in the Pac-12 Championship Tournament he had more turnrovers than points!



Jaylen Brown Cal stats:

G 34; PTS 14.6; TRB 5.4; AST 2

Ivan Rabb Cal stats:

G 65; PTS 13.2; TRB 9.4; AST 1.2





Yes, I'm aware of his stats at Cal.
But he literally had 5 turnovers in his last game at Cal in the Pac-12 Tournament with 4 points.
bearister
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I thought his Cal stats were disappointing, especially when you see how close they are to Rabb's….who he is exponentially better than now.
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ducky23
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bearister said:

I thought his Cal stats were disappointing, especially when you see how close they are to Rabb's….who he is exponentially better than now.


Jaylen is an athletic wing who can play defense.

Rabb is a 4 who has trouble guarding in space, can't shoot the 3 and relies on getting the ball in the post.

In a different era, things might've turned out differently for Rabb
bearister
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Rabb F'd himself hanging around an extra season. Apparently he was overvalued in the Draft he could have entered after his freshman season.
A 2nd year in a rudderless program with no coaching ended up costing him millions. He may have ended up with the same career arc regardless of when he left Cal but he would have made bank leaving after 1 year.

"The 6'11" Rabb could have been there, too, after a highly productive first season in Berkeley (12.5 points per game, 8.5 rebounds per game, 12 double-doubles, team-high 124.8 offensive rating and 5.1 Win Shares) that suggested he was nowhere near his ceiling. Some might posit Rabb should have been there, carrying lottery-pick cache with him. But a player who had heard he might one of the first dozen names off the board on draft night did the strangest thing: He didn't declare. He didn't test the waters. He didn't so much as approach the shoreline." SI.com
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Big C
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bearister said:

Rabb F'd himself hanging around an extra season. Apparently he was overvalued in the Draft he could have entered after his freshman season.
A 2nd year in a rudderless program with no coaching ended up costing him millions. He may have ended up with the same career arc regardless of when he left Cal but he would have made bank leaving after 1 year.

"The 6'11" Rabb could have been there, too, after a highly productive first season in Berkeley (12.5 points per game, 8.5 rebounds per game, 12 double-doubles, team-high 124.8 offensive rating and 5.1 Win Shares) that suggested he was nowhere near his ceiling. Some might posit Rabb should have been there, carrying lottery-pick cache with him. But a player who had heard he might one of the first dozen names off the board on draft night did the strangest thing: He didn't declare. He didn't test the waters. He didn't so much as approach the shoreline." SI.com


Many believe that Rabb's situation mirrored that of Russell White in that, if they had turned pro a year earlier, they would've been early draft picks. I don't know, what I think they had in common was that they would've been scrutinized in the weeks approaching the draft and that each of their draft stocks would have fallen.

I get it, conventional wisdom now says that, if you're a phenom, come out early while your profile still has that cachet, as opposed to waiting and perhaps being exposed, but I think the scouts making these decisions are doing more thorough evaluations and making less mistakes.
gos3
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I watched this exciting match. Stephen Curry scored 29 points. He played Amazing in this match. Warriors didn't wait that long in Game 2, going on a 43-14 burst from late in the first half until early in the fourth quarter to turn a tie game into an absolute runaway.
Californium
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I just found this thread today. (I don't spend nearly as much time here as i used to - you can decide for yourself if that's a positive or a negative).

Anyway, it was pretty fun(ny) reading through the whole thread. There were some very interesting opinions expressed, or if not interesting, at least in hindsight I found them entertaining.

My big takeaway is that Ducky23 is the only one of us who really knows anything about BB. He correctly called the Celtics hot 4th as probably unsustainable, correctly predicted/suggested the defensive adjustment that Kerr actually made, and didn't over react to one game's outcome.

Also is a Randy Duck fan so is kinda an OG, not that that's pertinent!
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DiabloWags
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bearister said:

I thought his Cal stats were disappointing, especially when you see how close they are to Rabb's….who he is exponentially better than now.


Excellent point on Jaylen Sir!
DiabloWags
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HoopDreams said:

ducky23 said:

Here's the adjustments I see the warriors making

- put draymond on brown and klay on horford. Solves two problems at once. Draymond can contain brown and klay won't drift from horford as much as draymond has a tendency to. If hordford wants to post klay, the warriors will take that


If the warriors just think Boston is going to stop making open threes because of the percentages, they're gojng to lose. Hopefully Kerr makes the adjustment


You nailed this Duck


Im feeling left out.
Did the Warriors stop playing Zone as suggested?

GP2 was +15 logging 25 minutes.

At 40-35 Boston in Q2, Kerr put in Porter and GP2 after a time-out and they went on a key 10 - 0 run.
Pure genius.

Steph was "breathtaking" in Q3 according to Kerr. And his D is night and day better!

That 19 - 2 Warrior run in Q3 after being up only 6, was indeed BREATHTAKING!



HoopDreams
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DiabloWags said:

HoopDreams said:

ducky23 said:

Here's the adjustments I see the warriors making

- put draymond on brown and klay on horford. Solves two problems at once. Draymond can contain brown and klay won't drift from horford as much as draymond has a tendency to. If hordford wants to post klay, the warriors will take that


If the warriors just think Boston is going to stop making open threes because of the percentages, they're gojng to lose. Hopefully Kerr makes the adjustment


You nailed this Duck


Im feeling left out.
Did the Warriors stop playing Zone as suggested?

GP2 was +15 logging 25 minutes.

At 40-35 Boston in Q2, Kerr put in Porter and GP2 after a time-out and they went on a key 10 - 0 run.
Pure genius.

Steph was "breathtaking" in Q3 according to Kerr. And his D is night and day better!

That 19 - 2 Warrior run in Q3 after being up only 6, was indeed BREATHTAKING!

sorry

I watch college so much and mostly just Cal so I'm more focused and therefore alert to when a team switches to zones (which has always been allowed)

but zones are new for the NBA and watch it as a casual fan, so unless an announcer points it out, I rarely notice when they switch.

Similarly, when I watch Cal, I watch a lot of the off-ball action ... moving without the ball, screens, sets/actions, etc.... but when I watch the NBA, I just ball watch





BearSD
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HoopDreams said:





but zones are new for the NBA and watch it as a casual fan, so unless an announcer points it out, I rarely notice when they switch.
The widespread use of zone defense is new, but the current rule allowing zone is 20 years old.

The only NBA restriction on zone is the "defensive 3 seconds" rule, which makes it illegal for a defender to stand in the lane for more than 3 seconds if he is not actively guarding an opposing player.
ducky23
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I may end up being very wrong about this, but I think Boston is in a bit more trouble then the talking heads realize. Switching Draymond to Jaylen and getting GP2 back sort of unlocked the Warriors defense, and its unclear to me whether Boston has a viable counter.

This is basically what the Dubs are doing. They have either Wiggin/GP2 /Draymond on Tatum/Brown at all times. And when all three are on the court, they have GP2 on White, which is basically death for the Boston offense.

The Boston offense isn't very diverse. They strictly rely on Tatum/Brown to drive and kick OR play 1 on 1 and shoot contested jumpers. They have no other playmakers (besides maybe White, but you aren't going to get beat by White if you put some defensive focus on him and I'm more than comfortable with Steph on a hobbled Smart).

On drives, the Warriors are playing much more aggressively. First, on the drive, the primary defender will force Tatum/Brown one direction (never give the middle of the key) this creates a strong side and weak side, which makes help easier. Then on the drive, the strong side help wing defender will either stab at the ball and recover quickly to their man OR help late but much more aggressively. If the driver continues to drive, they will be met by the dunker spot help defender who will rotate over (the amount of help will depend on how closely the main defender can stay with the driver). The weakside corner defender will rotate to the dunker spot and then the weakside wing defender will try to cover both the weakside corner shooter and weakside wing shooter. That weakside wing defender will then feint and try to confuse the driver as to which shooter he is going to cover. (sorry this would be much easier with pictures).

So in real time, this is why this defense is so difficult. Lets say Brown drives, Wiggins forces him left. As he drives, GP2 (who is guarding white on the wing) will reach in for the steal. If Brown gets by that, he's then met by Looney in the paint, with Wiggins still on his hip harassing him. Brown will then have to decide whether to shoot or pass to the dunker spot (if its open enough) or kick out to the weakside. But the weakside help defender is feinting and isn't revealing which shooter he's going to cover. So Brown, in a split second, has to decide whether to shoot or pass and where the open shooter is, all the while Wiggins and other help defenders are aggressively swiping at the ball (all of this while driving 100 miles an hour) And other help defenders are feinting one way and another, not revealing where they are going, making it difficult to find who is actually open. Its not easy.

The Warriors also have variations to this, as sometimes the help will come late, sometimes early and sometimes from different places, its a lot to process in a very short time span.

The key to all of this is Wiggins/Draymond/GP2. They are all elite perimeter defenders (GP2 is arguably the best point of attack perimeter defender in the game - there is data to back that up). This defense doesn't work if Brown/Tatum can just blow by their defender, because then there needs to be overhelp which leaves shooters much more open. This is what was happening in game 1. But if the main defender can stay on the drivers' hip and harass them, its extremely difficult to consistently make the correct reads.

So with Brown now being neutralized, there are less blow bys, thus the help defenders can stick on their man more closely allowing way less open threes.

My hypothesis is that Boston doesn't have elite playmakers or elite offensive players (no one at the caliber of a Jokic or Luka who would be much better suited to make split second decisions). I don't think Tatum and especially Brown are going to be able to consistently drive and find the open shooter (I think we all know Brown well enough to know that he has trouble making reads). Not with so many good defenders harassing them. Thus I think they will be relegated to a lot of 1 on 1 play, and taking contested jumpers. Which negates the impact of the role players, who I believe can only be effective if they have semi open looks created by drive and kick.

Thus, I think it will come down to this. Which team has a better chance of creating consistent offense? Will it be Brown/Tatum playing 1 on 1 against three elite defenders. Or will it be the Curry high PnR (which has historically been the most efficient play in basketball).

I may be proven wrong. Maybe Tatum is indeed a superstar. Maybe he will consistently make the correct reads and consistently make contested jumpers. We will see. I'm betting on Curry though, who I believe has a much better ability of opening up space for his teammates.
sycasey
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ducky23 said:

I may end up being very wrong about this, but I think Boston is in a bit more trouble then the talking heads realize. Switching Draymond to Jaylen and getting GP2 back sort of unlocked the Warriors defense, and its unclear to me whether Boston has a viable counter.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to this. When I declared Boston the better team after Game 1 it was without knowing if Gary Payton II could return. Since he didn't play at all in that game, I kind of assumed he wouldn't (or at least couldn't be anywhere near 100%). In Game 2 he played and looked great, and I agree that GP2 makes the Warriors' defense a lot tougher.

The Celtics are still talented, so I won't be shocked if they win the series. But a healthy GP2 gives the Warriors a much better chance.
ducky23
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i won't be shocked if Boston wins either. But I think if the Celtics do win, it'll be because they make adjustments on the defensive end OR if Steph gets zero help from Klay/Poole etc.

I don't think the Celtics really have another gear on offense. But depending on health, I think the Celtics can probably be much better on defense.
DiabloWags
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Excellent analysis (above) Ducky!
Really enjoyed the read.

Go GP2 Go!

philbert
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Good thoughts, ducky. We'll see how good Boston's pnr adjustments are against steph. Still expecting them to split in boston.

Iggy is cleared for game 3. We'll see if he plays. Kerr loves Iggy so I'm guessing he will get some minutes.

bearister
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Tatum took a stroll through the key and gets a foul call.
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DiabloWags
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We might be needing some KUMINGA.
DiabloWags
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Looney looks FATIGUED.
And the ENTIRE team looks 1.5 steps slow to the ball.
 
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