OT: Official Warriors vs Celtics 2022 NBA Finals Thread

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bearister
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6:54a, 5/30/22
Finals preview: Storied Celtics, Warriors clash for 2022 championship | NBA.com


https://www.nba.com/news/2022-finals-preview-warriors-celtics?



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parentswerebears
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7:35a, 5/30/22
Jaylen Brown is always an afterthought in write ups of Celtics games, but he is essential to their success. I've been impressed with him since I heard about him as a hs student. I hope he has a tremendous series.
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59bear
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7:57a, 5/30/22
I'm not normally a fan of the NBA but I do like the way the Ws play the game and Boston's Cal connection via Brown is compelling so I'll probably watch most of the action.
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bearister
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In reply to 59bear • 8:22a, 5/30/22
59bear said:
I'm not normally a fan of the NBA but I do like the way the Ws play the game and Boston's Cal connection via Brown is compelling so I'll probably watch most of the action.


I only watch the NBA Playoffs and Finals. It is always worth it.

This is a match made in Heaven for hoop fans. West Coast vs East Coast and squads that both play team ball. I like the players on both teams….and having one of our sturdy Golden Bears on the Celtics is the cherry on top.

*The rules and officiating are also a constant source of amusement for me. They call Jaylen Brown for traveling for a split second foot shuffle yet swallow the whistle for a 4 step stroll through the paint with a Euro step tacked on the end of it for good measure.
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prospeCt
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9:43a, 5/30/22




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BearSD
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In reply to bearister • 10:49a, 5/30/22
bearister said:
59bear said:

*The rules and officiating are also a constant source of amusement for me. They call Jaylen Brown for traveling for a split second foot shuffle yet swallow the whistle for a 4 step stroll through the paint with a Euro step tacked on the end of it for good measure.
The officiating is often dubious. But in the two examples you mentioned:

1) Brown's traveling on that play was so obvious that the announcers called it before the official made the signal.

2) The uncalled extra step(s) in the lane is, to me, rough justice. When a player takes an extra step after being bumped by a defender, the officials are deciding to let the ballhandler play through the contact to get to his layup or dunk rather than calling a foul. Or, if you like, it's what someone suggested on this board awhile back -- it's similar to soccer where the official doesn't stop play to call a foul if the team with the ball has an "advantage", i.e. they are better off playing through instead of having the official stop the play.
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In reply to BearSD • 11:26a, 5/30/22
That may be true about the call on Brown, but to not call it when the violation is responsible for a made basket is a joke.
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oskidunker
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12:25p, 5/30/22
Brown still gets a-lot of charging fouls. Not as bad as when he was at Cal but could be a decider in a close game
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In reply to oskidunker • 1:33p, 5/30/22
oskidunker said:
Brown still gets a-lot of charging fouls. Not as bad as when he was at Cal but could be a decider in a close game

….and he still has work to do on his handle. Watch for the Warriors to strip him of the ball more than a few times.
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BearSD
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In reply to bearister • 3:20p, 5/30/22
bearister said:
That may be true about the call on Brown, but to not call it when the violation is responsible for a made basket is a joke.
When there is contact, then strictly speaking the call should be a foul on a defender. To avoid slowing the game down, they let the contact go uncalled and then let the extra step after the contact go uncalled as well.

Although it results in more shooters getting knocked down -- look at how often Steph ends up on the floor after a layup attempt -- as a fan I would rather not see the game become even more of a free-throw shooting contest. Apparently the league office feels the same way.
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Big C
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4:16p, 5/30/22

When they're playing in SF, the TV guys will probably mention that Jaylen Brown played at Cal. Maybe he will even get a chance to do a few shout-outs. For our moribund program, every little bit helps!
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HoopDreams
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In reply to BearSD • 5:55p, 5/30/22
This happens sometimes on out of bound plays where they give the ball to the player's team who last touched the ball because the other player pushed him (technically is a foul, but ref makes the decision to just give them the ball without a whistle

I'm all for this type of ref decision, especially with only 5 fouls in college, where your second foul in first half usually results in the player sitting

BearSD said:
bearister said:
That may be true about the call on Brown, but to not call it when the violation is responsible for a made basket is a joke.
When there is contact, then strictly speaking the call should be a foul on a defender. To avoid slowing the game down, they let the contact go uncalled and then let the extra step after the contact go uncalled as well.

Although it results in more shooters getting knocked down -- look at how often Steph ends up on the floor after a layup attempt -- as a fan I would rather not see the game become even more of a free-throw shooting contest. Apparently the league office feels the same way.
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In reply to BearSD • 6:02p, 5/30/22
BearSD said:
bearister said:
That may be true about the call on Brown, but to not call it when the violation is responsible for a made basket is a joke.
When there is contact, then strictly speaking the call should be a foul on a defender. To avoid slowing the game down, they let the contact go uncalled and then let the extra step after the contact go uncalled as well.

Although it results in more shooters getting knocked down -- look at how often Steph ends up on the floor after a layup attempt -- as a fan I would rather not see the game become even more of a free-throw shooting contest. Apparently the league office feels the same way.


I'm stubborn, so I'll raise you:

When I played hoop, during the Pleistocene Era, if you sealed off an offensive player going to the hoop, he had 3 options: stop his dribble and pass; pull up and shoot; or commit a charging foul.

In the modern NBA there are two more options:
1. Pick up your dribble and run through the key and into the defender who will then get called for a foul because nobody can guard someone running with the ball and not dribbling; or
2. After you have picked up your dribble and taken 3 steps just add a 4th Euro step around the defender for an open bunny.

*And if you think the travel call on Jaylen was justified, then you must be a believer that they should call the traveling that occurs every time an offensive player receives a pass and then shuffles off to Buffalo to get to their 3 point shooting spot. The refs never call it.
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BearSD
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In reply to bearister • 6:48p, 5/30/22
bearister said:
BearSD said:
bearister said:
That may be true about the call on Brown, but to not call it when the violation is responsible for a made basket is a joke.
When there is contact, then strictly speaking the call should be a foul on a defender. To avoid slowing the game down, they let the contact go uncalled and then let the extra step after the contact go uncalled as well.

Although it results in more shooters getting knocked down -- look at how often Steph ends up on the floor after a layup attempt -- as a fan I would rather not see the game become even more of a free-throw shooting contest. Apparently the league office feels the same way.


I'm stubborn, so I'll raise you:

When I played hoop, during the Pleistocene Era, if you sealed off an offensive player going to the hoop, he had 3 options: stop his dribble and pass; pull up and shoot; or commit a charging foul.

In the modern NBA there are two more options:
1. Pick up your dribble and run through the key and into the defender who will then get called for a foul because nobody can guard someone running with the ball and not dribbling; or
2. After you have picked up your dribble and taken 3 steps just add a 4th Euro step around the defender for an open bunny.

*And if you think the travel call on Jaylen was justified, then you must be a believer that they should call the traveling that occurs every time an offensive player receives a pass and then shuffles off to Buffalo to get to their 3 point shooting spot. The refs never call it.
Defenders aren't sealing off the ballhandler in the lane, they're hip checking and swiping with their hands. We're not talking about defenders who are standing still with their feet planted on the floor; defenders who do that draw charging calls.

As for a player who does the Harden Shuffle back to the 3-point line -- absolutely that should be whistled for traveling.
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In reply to BearSD • 6:59p, 5/30/22
I'm not even talking about the move backwards. They do it laterally mostly.
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In reply to bearister • 7:37p, 5/30/22
bearister said:
I'm not even talking about the move backwards. They do it laterally mostly.

as for the block/charge call, it's a misconception that the defender can't be moving. they need to be in proper defensive position, and once that is established, can go sideways, backwards, etc. to maintain proper defensive position

as for the sidestep. If a player catches the ball and then takes two steps back and shoots, it could be a legal play, depending on several factors. But the way I understood it a little better was it's really no different that taking two steps forward for a layup.

I'm still a little confused by when a player dribbles, stops, and then changes their pivot foot for an underhanded shot. Always looks like a travel to me, but depending on how the player does it, is legal

the other difficult to judge issue when a player shoots a layup, and it's unclear whether they take 2 or 3 steps. This is complicated from the 'gather step'

bottom line, is there are some nuances that are often misunderstood, mis-interpreted, and usually difficult to make the right call as a ref (or a fan)
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7:56p, 5/30/22
I found a good video on the layup travel. what I like about this video is he explains the technical rule, but also explains that what is called in a different league (or a pickup game) is often times the more traditional way to think of it.

For example, some people think you can't take more than one step per dribble, but this video explains that's not a violation as long as it's not a carry. I've been in this situation in a pickup, but didn't argue the call as it's really pointless



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8:00p, 5/30/22
the james harden step back explained:



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6:59a, 5/31/22


"The Celtics and Warriors will meet in the NBA Finals starting Thursday in San Francisco. We'll have a full preview soon. For now, a few numbers to know...

2nd: This is the second Boston-San Francisco championship round matchup in Big Four sports history. The other meeting was the 1964 NBA Finals, when Bill Russell and the Celtics routed Wilt Chamberlain and the then-San Francisco Warriors, 4-1.

50-1: Based on their 50-1 preseason odds, the Celtics would be the biggest long shot to win a title in the past 35 years, per sports betting archive.
SportsOddsHistory.

97%: That's how many NBA champions have been top-three seeds, a trend that will continue this year with the second-seeded Celtics and third-seeded Warriors facing off.

141: Al Horford has finally reached the promised land after playing an NBA-record 141 playoff games without a Finals appearance.

.695: Stephen Curry is 107-58 in playoff games (.695), better than any MVP in NBA history." Axios

Three Big Questions Ahead of the 2022 NBA Finals - The Ringer


https://www.theringer.com/2022/5/29/23144945/boston-celtics-golden-state-warriors-2022-nba-finals
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59bear
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In reply to bearister • 8:08a, 5/31/22
bearister said:
BearSD said:
bearister said:
That may be true about the call on Brown, but to not call it when the violation is responsible for a made basket is a joke.
When there is contact, then strictly speaking the call should be a foul on a defender. To avoid slowing the game down, they let the contact go uncalled and then let the extra step after the contact go uncalled as well.

Although it results in more shooters getting knocked down -- look at how often Steph ends up on the floor after a layup attempt -- as a fan I would rather not see the game become even more of a free-throw shooting contest. Apparently the league office feels the same way.


I'm stubborn, so I'll raise you:

When I played hoop, during the Pleistocene Era, if you sealed off an offensive player going to the hoop, he had 3 options: stop his dribble and pass; pull up and shoot; or commit a charging foul.

In the modern NBA there are two more options:
1. Pick up your dribble and run through the key and into the defender who will then get called for a foul because nobody can guard someone running with the ball and not dribbling; or
2. After you have picked up your dribble and taken 3 steps just add a 4th Euro step around the defender for an open bunny.

*And if you think the travel call on Jaylen was justified, then you must be a believer that they should call the traveling that occurs every time an offensive player receives a pass and then shuffles off to Buffalo to get to their 3 point shooting spot. The refs never call it.
The NBA equivalent of "artistic license".
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oski003
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4:30p, 5/31/22
In the last 3 seasons, the team to beat Jimmy Butler has won the NBA Finals.
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BearForce2
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In reply to oski003 • 8:09p, 5/31/22
oski003 said:
In the last 3 seasons, the team to beat Jimmy Butler has won the NBA Finals.
The Warriors also had key players with injuries in the last 3 seasons.
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
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1:41p, 6/1/22




Inside the NBA: the sports gabfest that became late-night TV's best show


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jun/01/inside-the-nba-tnt-best-show-tribute?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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ducky23
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12:54a, 6/2/22
Besides a healthy Bucks team, Boston probably presents the toughest matchup for the Warriors. I think we all know what Boston is about and the individual matchups, but I see two main keys that I think are going to determine the series.

- Health of GP2 and Robert Williams: I think the Celtics offense is very average (their offensive rating is 8th during the playoffs out of the 16 playoff teams). Its probably the worst offense the dubs have faced in the playoffs so far. They take a lot of bad shots, aren't a great shooting team, they turn the ball over and have no playmakers (besides maybe Tatum). Tatum is not near the offensive player that either Jokic, Morant or Luka are. Boston relies on a lot of dribble penetration for either points in the paint or kickouts. The key is forcing mid range jumpers (which they will take). But you have to stop point of attack. You absolutely cannot allow complete blow by drives to the hoop. What the dubs will try to do is force Tatum/Brown to drive into the help defense and then rotate to the corner shooters. If the Dubs defense is on point, the Celtics offense will stagnate and they will hoist plenty of contested shots. If you can turn Tatum/Brown into volume shooters and not drivers, then the Warriors will win. Having a healthy GP2 is really key to this. Wiggins can handle Tatum, but I don't like the matchup of Klay/Steph on Jaylen. He's too quick for Klay and too strong for Steph. But if you have GP2 locking Jaylen down and Wiggins on Tatum, there aren't a lot of places the Celtics can go for offense. Plus, the Celtics (especially Brown) are awful ballhandlers. GP2 is probably the best ball stealer in the league. Having GP2 back would be huge.

As for Robert Williams, his value for the Celtics is pretty obvious. He's not only a great shotblocker, but hes a big who is not going to get abused on the perimeter (assuming he's healthy). A shotblocking big who can guard out on the perimeter is basically the Warriors kryptonite (see JJJ) If the Celtics can take away the paint, its going to be very difficult for the Warriors to generate offense. But whether he's healthy enough is a different question altogether.

Early Offense: I strongly believe the biggest key to this series is whether the Warriors can generate early offense. if they are constantly trying to score in the halfcourt, they are playing directly into the Celtics' hands. The Celtics will switch everything, take away any easy baskets and force the Warriors into contested threes and turnovers.

But the Warriors don't have to play the Celtics' game. If the Warriors push pace they can create easy looks before the Celtics get their defense set. That means the Warriors will have to play with high energy and their defense needs to be on point. They need to create turnovers, and get stops and just run. Even after made baskets, they need to run, just keep running. The one thing to look for is Draymond. If you see Draymond continuously pushing the ball after made baskets or defensive rebounds, that's a good sign. A high energy Draymond is going to be key for this. The warriors are the quicker team, the better conditioned team, the deeper team and the healthier team. Push, push, push.

At the end of the day, this is going to come down to one thing. How bad the Warriors want this. When the Warriors are locked in at both ends of the court for 48 minutes, they are the best team in basketball. I've seen them locked in during the playoffs for maybe 1 or 2 games. They are going to need to do it for the entire series. Its very unclear whether they can do it. But if I had to bet, I think Steph, Klay and Draymond want it more than the Celtics. And I think that'll be the difference.
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bearister
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10:27a, 6/2/22
Celtics a 3.5 dog at Chase tonight.
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In reply to bearister • 11:19a, 6/2/22
bearister said:




Inside the NBA: the sports gabfest that became late-night TV's best show


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jun/01/inside-the-nba-tnt-best-show-tribute?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

True!
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
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boredom
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In reply to ducky23 • 11:49a, 6/2/22
I think the possession battle, and in particular live ball turnovers, will be critical. It'll be really hard for the Warriors to win if we spot Boston 10-15 points on fast break layups from dumb/lazy passes (happened quite a bit against Memphis, didn't against Dallas in part because Dallas' defense didn't go snag those passes like Memphis did). Points will be at a premium and we can't spot them a bunch. If we can continue to get a ton of offensive rebounds that'd help quite a bit both in terms of more possessions and also those possessions being a bit more scattered which should yield better looks.

Also, hopefully we find a place to hide Poole on defense while he's in. I'm not sure how much Boston focuses on getting the one specific matchup they want and going at it every possession.




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philbert
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1:20p, 6/2/22
Interestingly enough, Boston turns over the ball about as much as the Dubs do. Who can limit their turnovers more will be one of the key stats.
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concordtom
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2:23p, 6/2/22
The winner of Game 1 in the NBA Finals wins the series 70.7 percent (53-22) of the time.

The winner of Game 1 at home wins the series 77.6 percent (45-13) of the time.
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bearister
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2:41p, 6/2/22
In my simple analysis, that may well crash and burn, I believe the Warriors will win the Finals because they have more players than Boston does that can fill it up from Trey Land.

Boston is going to find out how exhausting it is to play firm D against multiple players that can make a 3 and then still have enough left to maintain an active offense.

At the end of the game tonight I am going to see how many guys on each team were contributing 3 pointers.
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Big C
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In reply to bearister • 2:47p, 6/2/22
bearister said:




Inside the NBA: the sports gabfest that became late-night TV's best show


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jun/01/inside-the-nba-tnt-best-show-tribute?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Barkley cracks me up. I used to take umbrage at his years-long lack of respect for the Warrors, but now that Steph/Klay/Draymond have a bunch of rings, it's not like they're desperate for respect... but we're always desperate to laugh.

Supposedly a couple of weeks ago, with the Warrior fans hootin' and hollerin' at him pretty bad, he turns around and said to them good-naturedly, "You'd better shut up, or I'll follow all y'all home and f*** your mothers!" And the fans ate it up. Not too many guys can say that "good-naturedly" and get away with it!

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concordtom
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In reply to bearister • 3:11p, 6/2/22
bearister said:
In my simple analysis, that may well crash and burn, I believe the Warriors will win the Finals because they have more players than Boston does that can fill it up from Trey Land.

Boston is going to find out how exhausting it is to play firm D against multiple players that can make a 3 and then still have enough left to maintain an active offense.

At the end of the game tonight I am going to see how many guys on each team were contributing 3 pointers.


People really looking forward to this matchup!

The W's were so putrid from roughly all-star game to end of season… they've had me concerned.

Boston has more size and toughness. If W's let Boston get at them, could be putrid again. We've seen the recipe for beating W's: hound Steph and be tougher inside. Celtics have the goods to do that.
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concordtom
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In reply to Big C • 3:15p, 6/2/22
Big C said:
bearister said:


With language like that, he SHOULD run for governor!!

Inside the NBA: the sports gabfest that became late-night TV's best show


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jun/01/inside-the-nba-tnt-best-show-tribute?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Barkley cracks me up. I used to take umbrage at his years-long lack of respect for the Warrors, but now that Steph/Klay/Draymond have a bunch of rings, it's not like they're desperate for respect... but we're always desperate to laugh.

Supposedly a couple of weeks ago, with the Warrior fans hootin' and hollerin' at him pretty bad, he turns around and said to them good-naturedly, "You'd better shut up, or I'll follow all y'all home and f*** your mothers!" And the fans ate it up. Not too many guys can say that "good-naturedly" and get away with it!

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ducky23
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In reply to boredom • 4:00p, 6/2/22
boredom said:
I think the possession battle, and in particular live ball turnovers, will be critical. It'll be really hard for the Warriors to win if we spot Boston 10-15 points on fast break layups from dumb/lazy passes (happened quite a bit against Memphis, didn't against Dallas in part because Dallas' defense didn't go snag those passes like Memphis did). Points will be at a premium and we can't spot them a bunch. If we can continue to get a ton of offensive rebounds that'd help quite a bit both in terms of more possessions and also those possessions being a bit more scattered which should yield better looks.

Also, hopefully we find a place to hide Poole on defense while he's in. I'm not sure how much Boston focuses on getting the one specific matchup they want and going at it every possession.




Not super concerned about the possession battle (I was much more concerned in Memphis series). I think warriors have proven that they aren't going to get abused on the glass (I think there's a good chance they win the rebounding battle again) and even though the dubs are going to give up their obligatory amount of turnovers, I think they turn over Boston just as much, if not more.

I have a theory on Poole (which I hope I'm wrong about) in that I think he's going to not get as many minutes as normal (maybe 20-25). I actually think its a better matchup defensively for him, but much worse offensively. On defense, he will probably mirror White's minutes (so he has somewhere to hide), plus I can see them playing a bunch of zone against the Celtics. During the regular season, the Celtics were zoned more than any other team, and their offensive efficiency against the zone was only 25th. You can hide Poole in a zone. Plus, even if they play man, the Celtics don't hunt mismatches as ruthleslessly as either Memphis (with Morant) or Dallas. So I actually think Poole will be ok defensively.

But offensively, I think he's going to struggle. Boston can put size/length on him on the perimeter, and once he gets by his guy, he will have Williams/Horford waiting for him. This isn't Dallas where he can hunt Luka and have no rim protection. Poole became fairly unplayable against Memphis once Morant went down....if Poole can't generate efficient offense, his value goes way down and guys like GP2 and Porter become more valuable.
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6:05p, 6/2/22
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