Impeachment #2 Thread

4,428 Views | 123 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by bearister
golden sloth
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okaydo said:

golden sloth said:

There needs to be some sort of punishment for Trump, but I dont want impeachment to impair congress' ability to pass legislation during the new session. Passing legislation should the first priority, not exercising past demons.
You think this is just going to go away after Jan.20?


No, but I do think it would be better to focus on the job at hand, and ways to improve the lives of Americans rather than start something that is certainly going to turn into a media circus.

I want my senators from california to spend their time passing legislation establishing voting rights, taking effective action on climate change, slashing the military budget, reinvesting in national infrastructure, establishing transparency measures and codifying the norms of the president and helping the roll out of the vaccine. They finally have power, I'd rather they use that power to pass legislation rather than squander it with a media circus that would be impeachment, when the person you want to impeach is no longer in office. Power is fleeting, when you have it, you should use it.

I believe the goal should be meaningful legislation.
golden sloth
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panda said:

blungld said:

Every post by BF2 needs to be flagged.

He is everything that is wrong with the internet and is part of the dangerous disinformation dissemination. He makes no attempt to engage in dialogue or conversation or learn or change and instead is just another node, albeit ineffectual, on the domestic terrorist network.

I would like to see him permanently removed from BI. We don't need to be tolerant of his types any longer. They all went too far and now need to be held to account everywhere. To hopefully go sober up somewhere if that is possible. This goes for others here too, but he is the worst offender.
Ive flagged him to Greg Bear. I honestly dont see what value BF2 brings other than to spread misinformation. I mean look at his sources - every single one of them is some sort of "independent journalist" or from a right-wing conservative blog that has been criticized universally as literally being fake news.

Im all for free speech but the dude spams this board with fake conspiracy theories. He is literally here to troll.

Ive finally put him on ignore but it sucks that even on ignore, he still has a large footprint on here.




He doesnt believe in free speech. Free speech indicates an exchange of ideas, he/she just overwhelms the conversation with BS preventing actual conversation.
BearForce2
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golden sloth said:

panda said:

blungld said:

Every post by BF2 needs to be flagged.

He is everything that is wrong with the internet and is part of the dangerous disinformation dissemination. He makes no attempt to engage in dialogue or conversation or learn or change and instead is just another node, albeit ineffectual, on the domestic terrorist network.

I would like to see him permanently removed from BI. We don't need to be tolerant of his types any longer. They all went too far and now need to be held to account everywhere. To hopefully go sober up somewhere if that is possible. This goes for others here too, but he is the worst offender.
Ive flagged him to Greg Bear. I honestly dont see what value BF2 brings other than to spread misinformation. I mean look at his sources - every single one of them is some sort of "independent journalist" or from a right-wing conservative blog that has been criticized universally as literally being fake news.

Im all for free speech but the dude spams this board with fake conspiracy theories. He is literally here to troll.

Ive finally put him on ignore but it sucks that even on ignore, he still has a large footprint on here.




He doesnt believe in free speech. Free speech indicates an exchange of ideas, he/she just overwhelms the conversation with BS preventing actual conversation.


Free speech indicates an exchange of ideas, not only left wing ideas at the exclusion of others. Don't play the victim, no one is trying to silence you.
AunBear89
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Blah blah blah Party of Lincoln blah blah blah blah.

You are the most intellectually dishonest Trump humper of them all, hydra.
smh
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Yogi_Bear said:

I prefer that they stick with the Andrew Jackson statue. I think it's always important to remember that the Democratic Party is the party of the Trail of Tears, of slavery, and of Jim Crow.
welcome Newbie, hoping for many happy returns..
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sycasey
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golden sloth said:

okaydo said:

golden sloth said:

There needs to be some sort of punishment for Trump, but I dont want impeachment to impair congress' ability to pass legislation during the new session. Passing legislation should the first priority, not exercising past demons.
You think this is just going to go away after Jan.20?


No, but I do think it would be better to focus on the job at hand, and ways to improve the lives of Americans rather than start something that is certainly going to turn into a media circus.

I want my senators from california to spend their time passing legislation establishing voting rights, taking effective action on climate change, slashing the military budget, reinvesting in national infrastructure, establishing transparency measures and codifying the norms of the president and helping the roll out of the vaccine. They finally have power, I'd rather they use that power to pass legislation rather than squander it with a media circus that would be impeachment, when the person you want to impeach is no longer in office. Power is fleeting, when you have it, you should use it.

I believe the goal should be meaningful legislation.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
OaktownBear
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Yogi_Bear said:



I would prefer to instantly have my own flying unicorn. My chances of having that in the next 10 years are equal to having Medicare for all.
OaktownBear
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sycasey said:

golden sloth said:

okaydo said:

golden sloth said:

There needs to be some sort of punishment for Trump, but I dont want impeachment to impair congress' ability to pass legislation during the new session. Passing legislation should the first priority, not exercising past demons.
You think this is just going to go away after Jan.20?


No, but I do think it would be better to focus on the job at hand, and ways to improve the lives of Americans rather than start something that is certainly going to turn into a media circus.

I want my senators from california to spend their time passing legislation establishing voting rights, taking effective action on climate change, slashing the military budget, reinvesting in national infrastructure, establishing transparency measures and codifying the norms of the president and helping the roll out of the vaccine. They finally have power, I'd rather they use that power to pass legislation rather than squander it with a media circus that would be impeachment, when the person you want to impeach is no longer in office. Power is fleeting, when you have it, you should use it.

I believe the goal should be meaningful legislation.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
I'm so afraid of this thing turning into a media circus. Because it isn't one now.

Reality check. Winning the presidency and the senate enables the Democrats to do a lot of things. Appoint and confirm a cabinet. Appoint and confirm judges. Sign executive orders. Change regulatory policy. That stuff is all very meaningful though most does not get media attention. The damage that Trump did without Congress and without any media coverage is immense.

Legislation it does not do. You need 60 in the senate unless you overturn the filibuster. Manchin will not overturn the filibuster. There are a few things you may be able to do with reconciliation. They may be able to get a Covid relief package through. They may but probably won't get an infrastructure package through. They most likely will not be able to pass an extremely popular minimum wage increase. They most certainly will not be able to pass any meaningful reform to healthcare. They will not be able to pass anything liberals give a damn about.

The next two years are going to be 2 years of the House passing popular progressive programs that they know will not get passed the Senate for the sole purpose of making Republicans vote them down. Until the Democrats get enough votes in the Senate to end the filibuster, that is what you have. That is our government. We will get plenty of meaningful policy out of the executive branch. We aren't getting any out of the legislative branch.
sycasey
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OaktownBear said:

sycasey said:

golden sloth said:

okaydo said:

golden sloth said:

There needs to be some sort of punishment for Trump, but I dont want impeachment to impair congress' ability to pass legislation during the new session. Passing legislation should the first priority, not exercising past demons.
You think this is just going to go away after Jan.20?


No, but I do think it would be better to focus on the job at hand, and ways to improve the lives of Americans rather than start something that is certainly going to turn into a media circus.

I want my senators from california to spend their time passing legislation establishing voting rights, taking effective action on climate change, slashing the military budget, reinvesting in national infrastructure, establishing transparency measures and codifying the norms of the president and helping the roll out of the vaccine. They finally have power, I'd rather they use that power to pass legislation rather than squander it with a media circus that would be impeachment, when the person you want to impeach is no longer in office. Power is fleeting, when you have it, you should use it.

I believe the goal should be meaningful legislation.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
I'm so afraid of this thing turning into a media circus. Because it isn't one now.
Right? The invasion at the Capitol created a media circus. Whatever Congress does to investigate and/or punish those responsible is not the problem here.
OaktownBear
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Yogi_Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi_Bear said:



I would prefer to instantly have my own flying unicorn. My chances of having that in the next 10 years are equal to having Medicare for all.

If I were the Democrats, I would at earliest convenience vote on a good, simple universal healthcare bill. Let the vote be counted and let everyone see how far away they are from meaningful healthcare reform and what they need to do politically to get it. And then drop the issue like a hot potato.

Clinton spent tons of political capital achieving nothing with health care.

Obama destroyed his chances of every other piece of meaningful reform he could have gotten with the tons of political capital he had to start by spending it all on a crappy law because he couldn't pass a good one.

The Democrats have got to stop kneecapping themselves with this. Vote. Expose the obstacles and move on.

But the choice presented was not what would I pick, instantly getting impeachment or instantly getting to vote on a M4all bill to expose those who oppose it. That is an easy choice. Impeach now. Hold a vote on M4All bill later. The choice presented was between impeachment, which I will get, and M4All which I have no chance of getting.

A bird in the hand is worth infinitely more than zero in the bush.
heartofthebear
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blungld said:

heartofthebear said:

NYCGOBEARS said:

There will be no unity until there's justice.
+1

When someone breaks into your house and robs you you don't go to trial and seek unity with the perp. You seek accountability.

There is a time for healing and there is a time for accountability. Until we have accountability, the environment isn't even safe to discuss healing.

You can't have freedom while being intimidated and you can't have healing until there is freedom.

At this point, the BS arguments being made by the Republicans on the house floor about the President being innocent of what happened on Wednesday, about what the constitution allows, about healing and about BLM and about gun rights have to be taken in the context of who is talking---a bunch of hypocritical liers who have willingly ignored their oath of office and have decided to only represent the party not the country. In any case, their credibility to lecture on the constition, the rule of law, healing and civil rights is a joke in itself. But I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
I liked Colbert's take on this. When you go to confession, you must first repent the sin to be forgiven. You'd think Trump's "christian" followers would understand this concept. Can you imagine, "Bless me Father for I did the same sin as some other guy and so God needs to not divide us and forgive me for this sin I am not admitting I did."
You better believe that, had these acts been done by Democrats that there would be unified and unequivocal condemnation of them by both parties and there would be a unanimous vote for impeachment regardless of the technical shortcomings involved.

Listening to the Republicans talk about hypocrisy after the way they did a complete 180 degree turn regarding the supreme court nominations over the last 4 years is so disgustingly disengenuous. To hear them talk about unity when most of their rhetoric is divisive and hurtful is just so ridiculously obtuse. Clearly they think that most Americans are as gullable as those that watch Fox news (AKA their constituents).
blungld
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BearForce2 said:

blungld said:

BearForce2 said:



blungld, you need to repent.
I do not demonize everyone who supports Trump, just those who support the spread of lies and propaganda that exonerates and excuses crimes against our nation.

I don't want to be silent and accept the "just following orders" or "every good Nazi..." mentality that parades itself as free speech or the "wild west" of the internet message board. There are legitimate discussions and political disagreement and then there is endorsing criminal behavior and furthering dangerous speech. You are a cult member spewing hateful dissent. I won't stand by or stand for it.

It probably makes no difference, but I just want public record that I want you removed and the kind of memes and propaganda you disseminate to not be tolerated on these forums anymore. You are part of the national problem.

That is not limiting free speech, it is limiting speech aimed at limiting freedom. Big difference.

According to the right, the "spreading of lies and propaganda that exonerates and excuses crimes against our nation" is coming from the Democrats. Who controls the television airwaves and social media? What's so obvious to many is lost on you and many on this board. Nazi?....you can't help yourself demonizing others who disagree with you, shame on you.
I did not call you Nazi and you know it. It's an expression used to describe being complicit by furthering, engaging in, or being silent about dangerous belief systems.

I do not demonize those who disagree with me and that is such a cheap mental shortcut you give yourself. I was quite clear about who I demonize. I demonize demons not dissenters. In this case people like you who spread lies and support corruption and criminality, not those in the opposite party.

You have freely chosen of your own volition to ingest and believe certain sources of media/news. Don't again give yourself the excuse that the airwaves are owned by the left or that I am brainwashed by the MSM. You seek out specific messages and sources. You are responsible for your bad beliefs and what you chose to repeat here. You post lies and disinformation and propaganda that comes from radicalized right extremists and even Russian sources. You are a scourge. You are not privy to great insight and finding buried nuts of truth, you are addicted to niche information that is irrational and foments discord and violence in our society. You have a black mind if you do not see this, and a black heart if you do see it and chose to continue. Cult members always want to accuse the "others" of what they themselves do and have succumbed to. Please leave the board.

"The Bear will not quilt, the Bear will not dye!"
WalterSobchak
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It's possible things could change sooner with expulsions. If these investigations can prove what we're hearing early rumblings about now, active participation by multiple GOP members, that will be a huge issue. Impossible to know likelihood at present. In any event we are in for a very bumpy ride. Seems possible Wed was the wakeup call Ds (and some patriotic Rs) have needed for a long time. Nothing like making someone fear for their own life to crystallize their thought process.
bearister
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Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
sycasey
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OaktownBear said:

Yogi_Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi_Bear said:



I would prefer to instantly have my own flying unicorn. My chances of having that in the next 10 years are equal to having Medicare for all.

If I were the Democrats, I would at earliest convenience vote on a good, simple universal healthcare bill. Let the vote be counted and let everyone see how far away they are from meaningful healthcare reform and what they need to do politically to get it. And then drop the issue like a hot potato.

Clinton spent tons of political capital achieving nothing with health care.

Obama destroyed his chances of every other piece of meaningful reform he could have gotten with the tons of political capital he had to start by spending it all on a crappy law because he couldn't pass a good one.

The Democrats have got to stop kneecapping themselves with this. Vote. Expose the obstacles and move on.

But the choice presented was not what would I pick, instantly getting impeachment or instantly getting to vote on a M4all bill to expose those who oppose it. That is an easy choice. Impeach now. Hold a vote on M4All bill later. The choice presented was between impeachment, which I will get, and M4All which I have no chance of getting.

A bird in the hand is worth infinitely more than zero in the bush.
My only disagreement here is that I would not drop the issue like a hot potato, I would then just send all Democrats in Congress or working for the White House out into the field to talk, all day and every day, about why they couldn't get these popular things passed. Once you are stymied in Congress, take your case to the American people.

That, IMO, is where the Obama administration failed most (though I do give them credit for getting something done). They did a poor job of continuing to campaign for their own bill. Seemed like they just assumed that once they got the thing passed, the goodness of the ACA would become self-evident (even though many of the most beneficial provisions of the law were pushed out several years). No, you need to keep campaigning. When the opposition is as entrenched as it is, the campaign never ends. I hope the Biden administration and Congressional leadership have learned that lesson.
B.A. Bearacus
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okaydo
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NYCGOBEARS
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I refuse to have any more conversations with those who act in bad faith and disseminate proven lies. They will not be convinced by me of anything. I'll engage with those who have legitimate policy or ideological differences I disagree with, but I just can't with the people who espouse the lies of the white grievance GOP anymore.

For those of you who still spar with them on this site, I do not know how you can still do it. I realize that countering their malicious mendacity has its own merits, but at this point it's just feeding trolls. They're way past pitiful or just wrong; they're dangerous. And that is not hyperbole.
Anarchistbear
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Trump is now the Goat. Impeached twice, removed zero but he still has time for the 3peat.
golden sloth
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sycasey said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi_Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi_Bear said:



I would prefer to instantly have my own flying unicorn. My chances of having that in the next 10 years are equal to having Medicare for all.

If I were the Democrats, I would at earliest convenience vote on a good, simple universal healthcare bill. Let the vote be counted and let everyone see how far away they are from meaningful healthcare reform and what they need to do politically to get it. And then drop the issue like a hot potato.

Clinton spent tons of political capital achieving nothing with health care.

Obama destroyed his chances of every other piece of meaningful reform he could have gotten with the tons of political capital he had to start by spending it all on a crappy law because he couldn't pass a good one.

The Democrats have got to stop kneecapping themselves with this. Vote. Expose the obstacles and move on.

But the choice presented was not what would I pick, instantly getting impeachment or instantly getting to vote on a M4all bill to expose those who oppose it. That is an easy choice. Impeach now. Hold a vote on M4All bill later. The choice presented was between impeachment, which I will get, and M4All which I have no chance of getting.

A bird in the hand is worth infinitely more than zero in the bush.
My only disagreement here is that I would not drop the issue like a hot potato, I would then just send all Democrats in Congress or working for the White House out into the field to talk, all day and every day, about why they couldn't get these popular things passed. Once you are stymied in Congress, take your case to the American people.

That, IMO, is where the Obama administration failed most (though I do give them credit for getting something done). They did a poor job of continuing to campaign for their own bill. Seemed like they just assumed that once they got the thing passed, the goodness of the ACA would become self-evident (even though many of the most beneficial provisions of the law were pushed out several years). No, you need to keep campaigning. When the opposition is as entrenched as it is, the campaign never ends. I hope the Biden administration and Congressional leadership have learned that lesson.


I do think there are some objectives that could be achieved even without a filibuster proof majority. I think everyone is okay with a bill to help distribute vaccines. I think some Republicans would vote for an infrastructure bill. I think some Republicans would vote for increased transparency and actually writing those unwritten rules Trump continuously exploited to prevent corruption and abuse of power. I agree Medicare for all, and national voting rights might not be possible, and environmental issues will be through executive action and the rebuilding of the EPA. The big idea bills might not be there, but there plenty of other impactful issues that are. I know it's not sexy, but I'd prefer a string of singles and doubles rather than a homerun.
LunchTime
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Sorry this is so long, but in a forum that isnt a bunch of randoms, I want to be more clear than short posts will allow.

Let me start by saying this is obviously the worst that has happened in the last decade at least. But in ten years will it be the first shot, or last shot? In my mind that answer starts to come around with a trial on this impeachment.

But; The idea that this is a single thing caused by Trump is absurdism. This type of political violence has been on steadily on the rise for a long time. Hell, when Trump was inaugurated, they had running riots through DC. If you dont POWERFULLY denounce the political violence of ALL sides as it happens, it emboldens political violence as a legitimate tool to achieve political goals.

Continuously, for the second half of 2020 we had literal insurrection in the form of lawless "Autonomous zones" around the country with no denunciation from the "left." We had police stations burning down. We had attacks on federal Court Houses all summer with the "left" blaming the people tasked with protecting our court houses. The Vice President of the United States (in 7 days) was tweeting support for those arrested enacting that violence, raising money to get them back on the streets.

And the left was supportive. Refusing to denounce the violence because it was just a "small group" in a mostly peaceful protest. OF COURSE it will escalate. There was no way that wide spread political violence being labeled "mostly peaceful protests" would not escalate.

The sickening thing is that even in this thread, with smart people, you see it as a one way street. As though your side had "the most perfect protests. Big beautiful protests. The most peaceful protests!" and it isnt true, and until we start calling out this political violence out when we see it, we may be able to push the other side underground for a while, but we cant slow it down or stop it. BLM riots all summer were ****ed up. Period. Maybe you agree with the cause, but that agreement blinded 100% of the non right leaning media to handwave the near constant rioting and looting as irrelevant, and push to bail those people out of jail...

And dont bull**** yourself. The people getting bailed out are criminals. VERY few people are held long enough to need bail, and those that are, are charged because there is evidence. They are who needed bail because they had serious charges against them...


I think its obvious Trumps speech incited this most recent violence. That they went chanting "Hang Mike Pence" shows that... But was it worse than this type of speech advocating direct assault on government officials? Is it "OK" because "your side" said it? Where is the outrage when the nazi tactics of forcing people to do your parties salute at a restaurant? You cant even find moderate news outlets reporting on it, and there is video. If you can excuse this ****, you dont want to solve the problem of political violence, you just want to monopolize it. It is a two way street. If you are too blind to see that this is just a next step in the evolution of political violence, you are saying its not the last step, its just another step.


Trump should be convicted and banned from office. NO agenda that Biden or the democrats have should supersede the need (at least to attempt) to definitively say "This is too far, you dont get to hold office again." If you think bail out checks or ACA or whatever small potato things they have scheduled for the first hundred days is more important than protecting our democracy and constitution, I think you are nuts.
sycasey
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golden sloth said:

sycasey said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi_Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi_Bear said:



I would prefer to instantly have my own flying unicorn. My chances of having that in the next 10 years are equal to having Medicare for all.

If I were the Democrats, I would at earliest convenience vote on a good, simple universal healthcare bill. Let the vote be counted and let everyone see how far away they are from meaningful healthcare reform and what they need to do politically to get it. And then drop the issue like a hot potato.

Clinton spent tons of political capital achieving nothing with health care.

Obama destroyed his chances of every other piece of meaningful reform he could have gotten with the tons of political capital he had to start by spending it all on a crappy law because he couldn't pass a good one.

The Democrats have got to stop kneecapping themselves with this. Vote. Expose the obstacles and move on.

But the choice presented was not what would I pick, instantly getting impeachment or instantly getting to vote on a M4all bill to expose those who oppose it. That is an easy choice. Impeach now. Hold a vote on M4All bill later. The choice presented was between impeachment, which I will get, and M4All which I have no chance of getting.

A bird in the hand is worth infinitely more than zero in the bush.
My only disagreement here is that I would not drop the issue like a hot potato, I would then just send all Democrats in Congress or working for the White House out into the field to talk, all day and every day, about why they couldn't get these popular things passed. Once you are stymied in Congress, take your case to the American people.

That, IMO, is where the Obama administration failed most (though I do give them credit for getting something done). They did a poor job of continuing to campaign for their own bill. Seemed like they just assumed that once they got the thing passed, the goodness of the ACA would become self-evident (even though many of the most beneficial provisions of the law were pushed out several years). No, you need to keep campaigning. When the opposition is as entrenched as it is, the campaign never ends. I hope the Biden administration and Congressional leadership have learned that lesson.


I do think there are some objectives that could be achieved even without a filibuster proof majority. I think everyone is okay with a bill to help distribute vaccines. I think some Republicans would vote for an infrastructure bill. I think some Republicans would vote for increased transparency and actually writing those unwritten rules Trump continuously exploited to prevent corruption and abuse of power. I agree Medicare for all, and national voting rights might not be possible, and environmental issues will be through executive action and the rebuilding of the EPA. The big idea bills might not be there, but there plenty of other impactful issues that are. I know it's not sexy, but I'd prefer a string of singles and doubles rather than a homerun.
That's fine. If you can get votes for it, then pass it. If not, start up the pressure campaigns.

But none of this is a reason not to do impeachment. It's not either/or. It's both/and.
bearister
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You have to admit, however, it is fun slapping the ole puck back and forth with them until you reach the point where they either make a direct death threat and get banned for life or they simply remind you, because of your age, that you don't have long to live. For when you reach that point with them, my friend, you know that you have POTTED A SLAPPER FROM CENTER ICE!

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
OaktownBear
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golden sloth said:

sycasey said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi_Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Yogi_Bear said:



I would prefer to instantly have my own flying unicorn. My chances of having that in the next 10 years are equal to having Medicare for all.

If I were the Democrats, I would at earliest convenience vote on a good, simple universal healthcare bill. Let the vote be counted and let everyone see how far away they are from meaningful healthcare reform and what they need to do politically to get it. And then drop the issue like a hot potato.

Clinton spent tons of political capital achieving nothing with health care.

Obama destroyed his chances of every other piece of meaningful reform he could have gotten with the tons of political capital he had to start by spending it all on a crappy law because he couldn't pass a good one.

The Democrats have got to stop kneecapping themselves with this. Vote. Expose the obstacles and move on.

But the choice presented was not what would I pick, instantly getting impeachment or instantly getting to vote on a M4all bill to expose those who oppose it. That is an easy choice. Impeach now. Hold a vote on M4All bill later. The choice presented was between impeachment, which I will get, and M4All which I have no chance of getting.

A bird in the hand is worth infinitely more than zero in the bush.
My only disagreement here is that I would not drop the issue like a hot potato, I would then just send all Democrats in Congress or working for the White House out into the field to talk, all day and every day, about why they couldn't get these popular things passed. Once you are stymied in Congress, take your case to the American people.

That, IMO, is where the Obama administration failed most (though I do give them credit for getting something done). They did a poor job of continuing to campaign for their own bill. Seemed like they just assumed that once they got the thing passed, the goodness of the ACA would become self-evident (even though many of the most beneficial provisions of the law were pushed out several years). No, you need to keep campaigning. When the opposition is as entrenched as it is, the campaign never ends. I hope the Biden administration and Congressional leadership have learned that lesson.


I do think there are some objectives that could be achieved even without a filibuster proof majority. I think everyone is okay with a bill to help distribute vaccines. I think some Republicans would vote for an infrastructure bill. I think some Republicans would vote for increased transparency and actually writing those unwritten rules Trump continuously exploited to prevent corruption and abuse of power. I agree Medicare for all, and national voting rights might not be possible, and environmental issues will be through executive action and the rebuilding of the EPA. The big idea bills might not be there, but there plenty of other impactful issues that are. I know it's not sexy, but I'd prefer a string of singles and doubles rather than a homerun.


How many singles and doubles did Obama get through the legislature when he lost filibuster proof majority? Republicans were filibustering bills they agreed with on a regular basis
NYCGOBEARS
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bearister said:

You have to admit, however, it is fun slapping the ole puck back and forth with them until you reach the point where they either make a direct death threat and get banned for life or they simply remind you, because of your age, that you don't have long to live. For when you reach that point with them, my friend, you know that you have POTTED A SLAPPER FROM CENTER ICE!



Who's made death threats?
NYCGOBEARS
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This forum is so under moderated, I wouldn't be surprised if MAGAt are using DM's on here to coordinate attacks.






I'm kidding. Kind of.
GoOskie
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WalterSobchak said:

blungld said:

Every post by BF2 needs to be flagged.
BF is a total fraud. Even s/he doesn't believe what s/he says.
Just look at the post where s/he says 4 more years of Trump then 8 for Pence.
Pence!!! LOL
This was never the line of succession for any true MAGAT, but it sure as isn't the line now.
It's always been Trump forever, and that's never been more true than now.
When he dies, then Jr gets his turn.
Pence was never an option and everyone knows it.
He posts Qanon crap that can be read in many youtube comments sections.
“If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed … and we will deserve it”
OaktownBear
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LunchTime said:

Sorry this is so long, but in a forum that isnt a bunch of randoms, I want to be more clear than short posts will allow.

Let me start by saying this is obviously the worst that has happened in the last decade at least. But in ten years will it be the first shot, or last shot? In my mind that answer starts to come around with a trial on this impeachment.

But; The idea that this is a single thing caused by Trump is absurdism. This type of political violence has been on steadily on the rise for a long time. Hell, when Trump was inaugurated, they had running riots through DC. If you dont POWERFULLY denounce the political violence of ALL sides as it happens, it emboldens political violence as a legitimate tool to achieve political goals.

Continuously, for the second half of 2020 we had literal insurrection in the form of lawless "Autonomous zones" around the country with no denunciation from the "left." We had police stations burning down. We had attacks on federal Court Houses all summer with the "left" blaming the people tasked with protecting our court houses. The Vice President of the United States (in 7 days) was tweeting support for those arrested enacting that violence, raising money to get them back on the streets.

And the left was supportive. Refusing to denounce the violence because it was just a "small group" in a mostly peaceful protest. OF COURSE it will escalate. There was no way that wide spread political violence being labeled "mostly peaceful protests" would not escalate.

The sickening thing is that even in this thread, with smart people, you see it as a one way street. As though your side had "the most perfect protests. Big beautiful protests. The most peaceful protests!" and it isnt true, and until we start calling out this political violence out when we see it, we may be able to push the other side underground for a while, but we cant slow it down or stop it. BLM riots all summer were ****ed up. Period. Maybe you agree with the cause, but that agreement blinded 100% of the non right leaning media to handwave the near constant rioting and looting as irrelevant, and push to bail those people out of jail...

And dont bull**** yourself. The people getting bailed out are criminals. VERY few people are held long enough to need bail, and those that are, are charged because there is evidence. They are who needed bail because they had serious charges against them...


I think its obvious Trumps speech incited this most recent violence. That they went chanting "Hang Mike Pence" shows that... But was it worse than this type of speech advocating direct assault on government officials? Is it "OK" because "your side" said it? Where is the outrage when the nazi tactics of forcing people to do your parties salute at a restaurant? You cant even find moderate news outlets reporting on it, and there is video. If you can excuse this ****, you dont want to solve the problem of political violence, you just want to monopolize it. It is a two way street. If you are too blind to see that this is just a next step in the evolution of political violence, you are saying its not the last step, its just another step.


Trump should be convicted and banned from office. NO agenda that Biden or the democrats have should supersede the need (at least to attempt) to definitively say "This is too far, you dont get to hold office again." If you think bail out checks or ACA or whatever small potato things they have scheduled for the first hundred days is more important than protecting our democracy and constitution, I think you are nuts.
This is bullshyte

1. There is no equivalence between petty vandalism and overrunning the Capitol and threatening to execute government leaders.

2. There were autonomous zones all over the country? Really?

3. violence was denounced by the left. But exactly as you have done here, the conservatives exaggerated it and then wanted the left to denounce all of BLM, every protest, every protester and the whole movement. If the left would not denounce a movement that it both believed in and was popular and supported in poll after poll, conservatives tried to paint it as supporting violence. That is bullshyte. Biden denounced the violence and still conservatives say he didn't. Harris denounced the violence and still conservatives say she didn't. Trump sent in unmarked troops knowing he could push a crowd to respond. Trump said "when the looting starts the shooting starts". Unfortunately, protests sometimes lead to violence. That is just a fact of life. We can denounce the violence, and we did, and still support the cause. Republicans who want to keep the police from having any oversight tried to marginalize a whole movement. I'm pissed off about the violent idiots mostly because of the violence, but yes, also because it gives conservatives the argument. But the argument is still bullshyte.

4. Many criticized going after people in restaurants. Yelling at people in a restaurant is not the same as killing cops, smearing feces all over the Capitol, and looking for politicians to execute. No, yelling at somebody at a restaurant did not have anything to do with this.

THERE IS ONLY ONE COURSE FOR ANY DECENT CONSERVATIVE. UNEQUIVOCALLY DENOUNCING THE ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL. NOT BULLSHYTE DENUNCIATIONS FILLED WITH "IT'S REALLY THE LEFT'S FAULT". THIS IS ZERO PERCENT ON THE LEFT. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA. NONE. IT IS ALL ON YOUR SIDE. EVERY EFFING BIT OF IT.

There are always violent nutjobs on both sides in a small minority willing to go to a protests and commit vandalism or violence. It happens every year. You can point to protests and call them riots if you want. Nothing was close to this. You putting blame on "the left" for any of this just encourages these same people to do it again. They pick and choose what they hear and what they hear is "yeah, they have to denounce us, but you know what they really think". There is no, yeah that was wrong BUT. No but. none.

I'm happy to denounce all violence at every protest. If Antifa gave a crap about a cause they would see that those that use violence hurt every cause they believe in. But this is not that. This is not Charlottesville. This is Timothy McVeigh. You don't excuse it. You don't try to understand it. You don't blame the other side for pushing people to the brink. You unequivocally denounce it. Period. Full stop.
sycasey
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LunchTime said:

Sorry this is so long, but in a forum that isnt a bunch of randoms, I want to be more clear than short posts will allow.

Let me start by saying this is obviously the worst that has happened in the last decade at least. But in ten years will it be the first shot, or last shot? In my mind that answer starts to come around with a trial on this impeachment.

But; The idea that this is a single thing caused by Trump is absurdism. This type of political violence has been on steadily on the rise for a long time. Hell, when Trump was inaugurated, they had running riots through DC. If you dont POWERFULLY denounce the political violence of ALL sides as it happens, it emboldens political violence as a legitimate tool to achieve political goals.

Continuously, for the second half of 2020 we had literal insurrection in the form of lawless "Autonomous zones" around the country with no denunciation from the "left." We had police stations burning down. We had attacks on federal Court Houses all summer with the "left" blaming the people tasked with protecting our court houses. The Vice President of the United States (in 7 days) was tweeting support for those arrested enacting that violence, raising money to get them back on the streets.

And the left was supportive. Refusing to denounce the violence because it was just a "small group" in a mostly peaceful protest. OF COURSE it will escalate. There was no way that wide spread political violence being labeled "mostly peaceful protests" would not escalate.

The sickening thing is that even in this thread, with smart people, you see it as a one way street. As though your side had "the most perfect protests. Big beautiful protests. The most peaceful protests!" and it isnt true, and until we start calling out this political violence out when we see it, we may be able to push the other side underground for a while, but we cant slow it down or stop it. BLM riots all summer were ****ed up. Period. Maybe you agree with the cause, but that agreement blinded 100% of the non right leaning media to handwave the near constant rioting and looting as irrelevant, and push to bail those people out of jail...

And dont bull**** yourself. The people getting bailed out are criminals. VERY few people are held long enough to need bail, and those that are, are charged because there is evidence. They are who needed bail because they had serious charges against them...


I think its obvious Trumps speech incited this most recent violence. That they went chanting "Hang Mike Pence" shows that... But was it worse than this type of speech advocating direct assault on government officials? Is it "OK" because "your side" said it? Where is the outrage when the nazi tactics of forcing people to do your parties salute at a restaurant? You cant even find moderate news outlets reporting on it, and there is video. If you can excuse this ****, you dont want to solve the problem of political violence, you just want to monopolize it. It is a two way street. If you are too blind to see that this is just a next step in the evolution of political violence, you are saying its not the last step, its just another step.


Trump should be convicted and banned from office. NO agenda that Biden or the democrats have should supersede the need (at least to attempt) to definitively say "This is too far, you dont get to hold office again." If you think bail out checks or ACA or whatever small potato things they have scheduled for the first hundred days is more important than protecting our democracy and constitution, I think you are nuts.
A lot of your examples are misleading or incomplete at best (for example, why not bring up that both Harris and Biden clearly denounced violence in various statements?).

But moreover, I reject your overall framing that left-wing violence related to BLM or other causes has anything to do with what the right-wing insurrectionists did at the Capitol. These are completely different groups with completely different causes, structures, and methods. I think you need to do a lot more to prove that one feeds the other, otherwise you can always just blame the recent much worse action on a previous far tamer one. That's not an argument that leads anywhere fruitful.

FWIW, I was very clear on here that I thought vandals and looters should be prosecuted when possible, and also that I did not support the tactic of badgering people into doing a salute. But these things are small potatoes compared to the literal President of the United States inciting his own followers to violence against Congress.

I'm glad you agree that Trump deserves to be convicted and barred from future office. Hopefully sanity can prevail and this will be done.
bearister
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NYCGOBEARS said:

bearister said:

You have to admit, however, it is fun slapping the ole puck back and forth with them until you reach the point where they either make a direct death threat and get banned for life or they simply remind you, because of your age, that you don't have long to live. For when you reach that point with them, my friend, you know that you have POTTED A SLAPPER FROM CENTER ICE!



Who's made death threats?


He is too unhinged to name. Every post concerning me was that I was going to die. I never turned him in. I just told him I would be waiting. The Mods Banned in Britain-ed him permanently in the first week of September.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Eastern Oregon Bear
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NYCGOBEARS said:

bearister said:

You have to admit, however, it is fun slapping the ole puck back and forth with them until you reach the point where they either make a direct death threat and get banned for life or they simply remind you, because of your age, that you don't have long to live. For when you reach that point with them, my friend, you know that you have POTTED A SLAPPER FROM CENTER ICE!



Who's made death threats?
I think <name removed> was one. Perhaps the only one. He seemed to go off the rails back in early September and was bullying and threatening to expose people (whatever that meant) but he treated Bearister far worse than anyone else. The death threats were very thinly veiled. I was quite offended at the time. He hasn't been back here since then. I just looked and the offending posts seem to be either removed or edited.

I did report it at the time because it was so out of line. Also,I was on another message board years back and watched another poster (who was and still has severe metal health issues) gradually become a stalker. After years of complaining about being fired from a community radio station,he took it too far. He was caught trying to mess one guy's private plane and a few days later was arrested outside another guy's house with a gun. Fortunately the airport guards caught him the first time and the second guy noticed him outside his house just waiting and called the police. The stalker ended up doing 6 months or a year in the county jail followed by more time for violating parole. This was over on Usenet about 20 years ago, so he couldn't be banned. Everybody is long gone these days, but the stalker still posts incoherent messages about the half dozen former posters that he believes did him wrong. I don't think <name removed > was anywhere near as bad as that but I was concerned that things were escalating and getting out of hand.

I removed the name since Bearister posted first and didn't appear to want the name mentioned.
Anarchistbear
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People try to weaponize insurrections by party but the only thing they had in common is they were both aimed at the political establishment.
bearister
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

NYCGOBEARS said:

bearister said:

You have to admit, however, it is fun slapping the ole puck back and forth with them until you reach the point where they either make a direct death threat and get banned for life or they simply remind you, because of your age, that you don't have long to live. For when you reach that point with them, my friend, you know that you have POTTED A SLAPPER FROM CENTER ICE!



Who's made death threats?
I think <name removed> was one. Perhaps the only one. He seemed to go off the rails back in early September and was bullying and threatening to expose people (whatever that meant) but he treated Bearister far worse than anyone else. The death threats were very thinly veiled. I was quite offended at the time. He hasn't been back here since then. I just looked and the offending posts seem to be either removed or edited.


In my career I had a Green Beret in 'Nam in pro per defendant in a theft of trade secret case bring to my attention in a cross walk outside the Alameda County Superior Courthouse that "Green Berets never miss" while drawing an imaginary bullseye on his forehead with his finger. I also had an attorney (who mistakenly thought I got him sued for malpractice) leave a voicemail message for me that he was going to murder me (he sounded drunk and I recognized his voice). I never reported either of them either.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
dajo9
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LunchTime said:

Sorry this is so long, but in a forum that isnt a bunch of randoms, I want to be more clear than short posts will allow.

Let me start by saying this is obviously the worst that has happened in the last decade at least. But in ten years will it be the first shot, or last shot? In my mind that answer starts to come around with a trial on this impeachment.

But; The idea that this is a single thing caused by Trump is absurdism. This type of political violence has been on steadily on the rise for a long time. Hell, when Trump was inaugurated, they had running riots through DC. If you dont POWERFULLY denounce the political violence of ALL sides as it happens, it emboldens political violence as a legitimate tool to achieve political goals.

Continuously, for the second half of 2020 we had literal insurrection in the form of lawless "Autonomous zones" around the country with no denunciation from the "left." We had police stations burning down. We had attacks on federal Court Houses all summer with the "left" blaming the people tasked with protecting our court houses. The Vice President of the United States (in 7 days) was tweeting support for those arrested enacting that violence, raising money to get them back on the streets.

And the left was supportive. Refusing to denounce the violence because it was just a "small group" in a mostly peaceful protest. OF COURSE it will escalate. There was no way that wide spread political violence being labeled "mostly peaceful protests" would not escalate.

The sickening thing is that even in this thread, with smart people, you see it as a one way street. As though your side had "the most perfect protests. Big beautiful protests. The most peaceful protests!" and it isnt true, and until we start calling out this political violence out when we see it, we may be able to push the other side underground for a while, but we cant slow it down or stop it. BLM riots all summer were ****ed up. Period. Maybe you agree with the cause, but that agreement blinded 100% of the non right leaning media to handwave the near constant rioting and looting as irrelevant, and push to bail those people out of jail...

And dont bull**** yourself. The people getting bailed out are criminals. VERY few people are held long enough to need bail, and those that are, are charged because there is evidence. They are who needed bail because they had serious charges against them...


I think its obvious Trumps speech incited this most recent violence. That they went chanting "Hang Mike Pence" shows that... But was it worse than this type of speech advocating direct assault on government officials? Is it "OK" because "your side" said it? Where is the outrage when the nazi tactics of forcing people to do your parties salute at a restaurant? You cant even find moderate news outlets reporting on it, and there is video. If you can excuse this ****, you dont want to solve the problem of political violence, you just want to monopolize it. It is a two way street. If you are too blind to see that this is just a next step in the evolution of political violence, you are saying its not the last step, its just another step.


Trump should be convicted and banned from office. NO agenda that Biden or the democrats have should supersede the need (at least to attempt) to definitively say "This is too far, you dont get to hold office again." If you think bail out checks or ACA or whatever small potato things they have scheduled for the first hundred days is more important than protecting our democracy and constitution, I think you are nuts.


Nobody is surprised that 10,000 Trumpers were willing to commit violence against Congress. I'm sure you can find 10,000 leftists willing to commit violence against Trump. Both need to be appropriately policed.

What is the historical outrage here is that there was obviously enough government / police support for the Capitol attack that they actually succeeded in taking over the building and nearly had the opportunity to assassinate their political enemies.

If you can't see that difference then you are blind, probably willfully.
An old white dude
Eastern Oregon Bear
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bearister said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

NYCGOBEARS said:

bearister said:

You have to admit, however, it is fun slapping the ole puck back and forth with them until you reach the point where they either make a direct death threat and get banned for life or they simply remind you, because of your age, that you don't have long to live. For when you reach that point with them, my friend, you know that you have POTTED A SLAPPER FROM CENTER ICE!



Who's made death threats?
I think <name removed> was one. Perhaps the only one. He seemed to go off the rails back in early September and was bullying and threatening to expose people (whatever that meant) but he treated Bearister far worse than anyone else. The death threats were very thinly veiled. I was quite offended at the time. He hasn't been back here since then. I just looked and the offending posts seem to be either removed or edited.


In my career I had a Green Beret in 'Nam in pro per defendant in a theft of trade secret case bring to my attention in a cross walk outside the Alameda County Superior Courthouse that "Green Berets never miss" while drawing an imaginary bullseye on his forehead with his finger. I also had an attorney (who mistakenly thought I got him sued for malpractice) leave a voicemail message for me that he was going to murder me (he sounded drunk and I recognized his voice). I never reported either of them either.

I applaud your bravery. I don't report stuff often. This might have been the second or third time,but as I mentioned in my edited post, I watched things spiral out of control on another message board and I was concerned it could happen again here. It was probably an overreaction, but I thought the mods should be aware so they could do whatever they saw fit.
 
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