concordtom said:

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110 Days Til No Joe said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

"I'm a Never Trump guy," Vance said in an interview with Charlie Rose in 2016. "I never liked him."

…Vance tweet from October 2016. "My god what an idiot," he wrote, referring to Trump.

Vance expressed a similar sentiment in other interviews and since-deleted tweets from that time, including publicly mulling the idea of supporting Hillary Clinton, calling Trump "noxious" and "reprehensible."

Privately, he compared him to Adolf Hitler. "America's Hitler."

….People will apparently do anything for power. He's a flip-flopper!

---

Most Republicans don't have any principles other than to take whatever they can grab..

---

It's fine to assert JD Vance is wholly fake, but he did, you know, walk a picket line with striking UAW workers. https://t.co/e4Dc3l75PT

— Matt Stoller (@matthewstoller) July 17, 2024

---

So, he's pro union?
That's a democrat position, yes?
I'm surprised you're pointing that out, that now that Peter Thiel is paying his way he's open to flip flop on everything he believes.

---

To me, the question about Vance is, what and how much does he really believe now... and what's he really gonna believe tomorrow (i.e. in 3 yrs). I could picture him being the face of the "working class GOP" of the future, but he's no dummy: he's gonna need to reconcile "being for the working class" while also lining the pockets of the rich. I really don't see the two as being compatible.

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

concordtom said:

---

110 Days Til No Joe said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

"I'm a Never Trump guy," Vance said in an interview with Charlie Rose in 2016. "I never liked him."

…Vance tweet from October 2016. "My god what an idiot," he wrote, referring to Trump.

Vance expressed a similar sentiment in other interviews and since-deleted tweets from that time, including publicly mulling the idea of supporting Hillary Clinton, calling Trump "noxious" and "reprehensible."

Privately, he compared him to Adolf Hitler. "America's Hitler."

….People will apparently do anything for power. He's a flip-flopper!

---

Most Republicans don't have any principles other than to take whatever they can grab..

---

It's fine to assert JD Vance is wholly fake, but he did, you know, walk a picket line with striking UAW workers. https://t.co/e4Dc3l75PT

— Matt Stoller (@matthewstoller) July 17, 2024

---

So, he's pro union?
That's a democrat position, yes?
I'm surprised you're pointing that out, that now that Peter Thiel is paying his way he's open to flip flop on everything he believes.

---

To me, the question about Vance is, what and how much does he really believe now... and what's he really gonna believe tomorrow (i.e. in 3 yrs). I could picture him being the face of the "working class GOP" of the future, but he's no dummy: he's gonna need to reconcile "being for the working class" while also lining the pockets of the rich. I really don't see the two as being compatible.

---

OK. Now do Joe Biden. And Kamala Harris. And the Clintons. How have their views changed over time? And can you tell me what their core beliefs are (other than pursuit of political power)?

Unlike all of those people, Vance has directly explained why he's changed positions and acknowledge his position has evolved. It may be that he's just another political opportunist, but at his core I think he's always been a populist and isolationist (by neocon standards). What's changed is his view as how to advance his populist and "no endless war" ideas. This is detailed in his interview with the NYT. Time will tell.

---

Funny. You started by trying to rip other people as a justification for accepting his lack of purity.

But here's what I think - it's rare for people to be driven by a strong fixed value system. Most people are looking to make themselves something and they will and do become chameleons to adapt to their surroundings and situations.

Sometimes a person has a really intense foundational experience that sets their core solidly, but I don't see anything like that in Vance's life. I think his book was an attempt to describe his place in the world - for his own benefit (people work their 5hit out in conversation, or in prose) - not a telling of political values. And he's left that foundation anyways. He's joined a different group. A couple different groups. Investment community. Politics. And how's he helping his local kinfolk? He's not, he's on his own self-aggrandizement tour, which merely The Most Common Thing we humans do!

Present a fabulous option behind curtain #3 and people quite often get lured by it.

All that said, I suspect he's a very bright and introspective fellow and so 20 years after his tour is over, he'll reflect on it all and probably be able to have some truly wise things to say. But at this point, he's just bumbling along, being heavily influenced by others and the opportunity.

I dunno. I don't know him.
It's just, he's no savior. Folks tend to get caught up in imagining their heroes as something more than they actually are. He's 39. Come on. Still trying to make his way in the world.

Big C said:

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concordtom said:

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110 Days Til No Joe said:

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dimitrig said:

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concordtom said:

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"I'm a Never Trump guy," Vance said in an interview with Charlie Rose in 2016. "I never liked him."

…Vance tweet from October 2016. "My god what an idiot," he wrote, referring to Trump.

Vance expressed a similar sentiment in other interviews and since-deleted tweets from that time, including publicly mulling the idea of supporting Hillary Clinton, calling Trump "noxious" and "reprehensible."

Privately, he compared him to Adolf Hitler. "America's Hitler."

….People will apparently do anything for power. He's a flip-flopper!

---

Most Republicans don't have any principles other than to take whatever they can grab..

---

It's fine to assert JD Vance is wholly fake, but he did, you know, walk a picket line with striking UAW workers. https://t.co/e4Dc3l75PT

— Matt Stoller (@matthewstoller) July 17, 2024

---

So, he's pro union?
That's a democrat position, yes?
I'm surprised you're pointing that out, that now that Peter Thiel is paying his way he's open to flip flop on everything he believes.

---

To me, the question about Vance is, what and how much does he really believe now... and what's he really gonna believe tomorrow (i.e. in 3 yrs). I could picture him being the face of the "working class GOP" of the future, but he's no dummy: he's gonna need to reconcile "being for the working class" while also lining the pockets of the rich. I really don't see the two as being compatible.

---

Spot on.

He could be, but he'd have to betray those who delivered him to where he is now.
I don't see it either.

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

concordtom said:

---

110 Days Til No Joe said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

"I'm a Never Trump guy," Vance said in an interview with Charlie Rose in 2016. "I never liked him."

…Vance tweet from October 2016. "My god what an idiot," he wrote, referring to Trump.

Vance expressed a similar sentiment in other interviews and since-deleted tweets from that time, including publicly mulling the idea of supporting Hillary Clinton, calling Trump "noxious" and "reprehensible."

Privately, he compared him to Adolf Hitler. "America's Hitler."

….People will apparently do anything for power. He's a flip-flopper!

---

Most Republicans don't have any principles other than to take whatever they can grab..

---

It's fine to assert JD Vance is wholly fake, but he did, you know, walk a picket line with striking UAW workers. https://t.co/e4Dc3l75PT

— Matt Stoller (@matthewstoller) July 17, 2024

---

So, he's pro union?
That's a democrat position, yes?
I'm surprised you're pointing that out, that now that Peter Thiel is paying his way he's open to flip flop on everything he believes.

---

To me, the question about Vance is, what and how much does he really believe now... and what's he really gonna believe tomorrow (i.e. in 3 yrs). I could picture him being the face of the "working class GOP" of the future, but he's no dummy: he's gonna need to reconcile "being for the working class" while also lining the pockets of the rich. I really don't see the two as being compatible.

---

OK. Now do Joe Biden. And Kamala Harris. And the Clintons. How have their views changed over time? And can you tell me what their core beliefs are (other than pursuit of political power)?

Unlike all of those people, Vance has directly explained why he's changed positions and acknowledge his position has evolved. It may be that he's just another political opportunist, but at his core I think he's always been a populist and isolationist (by neocon standards). What's changed is his view as how to advance his populist and "no endless war" ideas. This is detailed in his interview with the NYT. Time will tell.

---

Eh? Joe Biden has explained his changing stances a lot. Maybe you just don't believe him and you do believe Vance.

NEW: We found JD Vance's Venmo and analyzed his friends & friends of friends. His friends list reveals connections to a wide array of people he'd likely call "elites." It doesn't take many hops before things get weird. Scoop by @dmehro @timmarchman & me https://t.co/8p60gH1JPI

— Andrew Couts (@AndrewCouts) July 18, 2024

SCOOPLET: The New York Times standards desk sent out a memo to reporters reminding them that JD Vance isn't actually from Appalachia, so please avoid suggesting that he's a "son of Appalachia." pic.twitter.com/kTeRBL0L8F

— Justin Baragona (@justinbaragona) July 18, 2024

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

concordtom said:

---

110 Days Til No Joe said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

"I'm a Never Trump guy," Vance said in an interview with Charlie Rose in 2016. "I never liked him."

…Vance tweet from October 2016. "My god what an idiot," he wrote, referring to Trump.

Vance expressed a similar sentiment in other interviews and since-deleted tweets from that time, including publicly mulling the idea of supporting Hillary Clinton, calling Trump "noxious" and "reprehensible."

Privately, he compared him to Adolf Hitler. "America's Hitler."

….People will apparently do anything for power. He's a flip-flopper!

---

Most Republicans don't have any principles other than to take whatever they can grab..

---

It's fine to assert JD Vance is wholly fake, but he did, you know, walk a picket line with striking UAW workers. https://t.co/e4Dc3l75PT

— Matt Stoller (@matthewstoller) July 17, 2024

---

So, he's pro union?
That's a democrat position, yes?
I'm surprised you're pointing that out, that now that Peter Thiel is paying his way he's open to flip flop on everything he believes.

---

To me, the question about Vance is, what and how much does he really believe now... and what's he really gonna believe tomorrow (i.e. in 3 yrs). I could picture him being the face of the "working class GOP" of the future, but he's no dummy: he's gonna need to reconcile "being for the working class" while also lining the pockets of the rich. I really don't see the two as being compatible.

---

OK. Now do Joe Biden. And Kamala Harris. And the Clintons. How have their views changed over time? And can you tell me what their core beliefs are (other than pursuit of political power)?

Unlike all of those people, Vance has directly explained why he's changed positions and acknowledge his position has evolved. It may be that he's just another political opportunist, but at his core I think he's always been a populist and isolationist (by neocon standards). What's changed is his view as how to advance his populist and "no endless war" ideas. This is detailed in his interview with the NYT. Time will tell.

---

OK. Joe Biden: Centrist Dem, internationalist, has leaned a little left lately to placate the progressives in his party.
Kamala Harris: No particular core values, will go with anything within the Dem range that will help her that year.
Clintons: Liberals who moved further and further to the center to help themselves politically.

Here's my point about Vance:

Old GOP is favoring business and the wealthy, unashamedly, with minimal government intervention. Message to the working class is they are welcome to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and become wealthy in this land of opportunity.

New GOP is trying to entice the working class with cultural issues and, more and more, making some economic overtures to them, largely through tariffs and lowering immigration and also by vilifying a few scapegoats among the super-rich, such as Big Pharma, Wall Street, the Entertainment industry and trial lawyers.

Seems to me that the new GOP is controlled, at its core, by people who are trying to pretend to be for the working class, in order to get their votes, but will never deliver for them economically and I'm wondering at what point JD Vance will stop and say "Hmmm... " (If he ever will. As I have written, I don't think his core beliefs are yet full-formed.)

I agree that Vance has always been a populist, but maybe a little less now. And that's fine. But I really don't believe Trump is a populist at all, do you? And Vance now works for Trump.

And before you go and tell me that the elite among the Democrats are guilty of the same hypocrisy that I accuse the New GOP of, yes, that's true... but to a lesser extent.

Good discussion.

CBS News: Hungary’s Viktor Orbán seized control of universities rewrote the Constitution and neutered the courts. Is that what you're advocating for in the US?

JD Vance: I think Orbán made smart decisions that we could learn from in the US. (June 2024)
pic.twitter.com/suGhFIVm3q

— The Intellectualist (@highbrow_nobrow) July 18, 2024

chazzed said:

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bear2034 said:

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dimitrig said:

---

Ask yourself...

Why are these guys supporting Trump? What are they hoping to get out of it?

Elon Musk says that Democrats gave a "very cold shoulder" to Tesla and SpaceX, which is absolutely ridiculous.

Is he expecting that Republicans will help him sell cars? You can't even buy a Tesla in Texas.

---

True, the Democratic Party has moved so far left that the Republican Party is now closest to the center https://t.co/Et4MQ5yobj

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 17, 2024

Elon Musk is moving Space X and X's headquarters to Texas. I wonder why?

---

He is an autocrat and wants to operate his businesses in states where he is able to wield the most power.

---

With all the f@uck ups with his cars, how long until there is a Space X rocket mishap with astronauts aboard like The Challenger?

Sen. J.D. Vance just talked about leaving Yale Law School with $120,000 in debt.

In “Hillbilly Elegy,” this is what he wrote about his financial aid package: pic.twitter.com/BrkLzJc8Bf

— David Gura (@davidgura) July 18, 2024

sycasey said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

concordtom said:

---

110 Days Til No Joe said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

"I'm a Never Trump guy," Vance said in an interview with Charlie Rose in 2016. "I never liked him."

…Vance tweet from October 2016. "My god what an idiot," he wrote, referring to Trump.

Vance expressed a similar sentiment in other interviews and since-deleted tweets from that time, including publicly mulling the idea of supporting Hillary Clinton, calling Trump "noxious" and "reprehensible."

Privately, he compared him to Adolf Hitler. "America's Hitler."

….People will apparently do anything for power. He's a flip-flopper!

---

Most Republicans don't have any principles other than to take whatever they can grab..

---

It's fine to assert JD Vance is wholly fake, but he did, you know, walk a picket line with striking UAW workers. https://t.co/e4Dc3l75PT

— Matt Stoller (@matthewstoller) July 17, 2024

---

So, he's pro union?
That's a democrat position, yes?
I'm surprised you're pointing that out, that now that Peter Thiel is paying his way he's open to flip flop on everything he believes.

---

To me, the question about Vance is, what and how much does he really believe now... and what's he really gonna believe tomorrow (i.e. in 3 yrs). I could picture him being the face of the "working class GOP" of the future, but he's no dummy: he's gonna need to reconcile "being for the working class" while also lining the pockets of the rich. I really don't see the two as being compatible.

---

OK. Now do Joe Biden. And Kamala Harris. And the Clintons. How have their views changed over time? And can you tell me what their core beliefs are (other than pursuit of political power)?

Unlike all of those people, Vance has directly explained why he's changed positions and acknowledge his position has evolved. It may be that he's just another political opportunist, but at his core I think he's always been a populist and isolationist (by neocon standards). What's changed is his view as how to advance his populist and "no endless war" ideas. This is detailed in his interview with the NYT. Time will tell.

---

Eh? Joe Biden has explained his changing stances a lot. Maybe you just don't believe him and you do believe Vance.

---

What part of "time will tell" led you to think I believe Vance?

And for the record, I can't recall Biden explaining in detail his changed views on much of anything, whether it be gay marriage/DOMA, the crime bill, immigration, etc. Maybe you can point me to some of those detailed explanations that explain his thinking?

okaydo said:

---

SCOOPLET: The New York Times standards desk sent out a memo to reporters reminding them that JD Vance isn't actually from Appalachia, so please avoid suggesting that he's a "son of Appalachia." pic.twitter.com/kTeRBL0L8F

— Justin Baragona (@justinbaragona) July 18, 2024

---

Cool. Will they also stop referring to Kamala as African American?

Big C said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

concordtom said:

---

110 Days Til No Joe said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

"I'm a Never Trump guy," Vance said in an interview with Charlie Rose in 2016. "I never liked him."

…Vance tweet from October 2016. "My god what an idiot," he wrote, referring to Trump.

Vance expressed a similar sentiment in other interviews and since-deleted tweets from that time, including publicly mulling the idea of supporting Hillary Clinton, calling Trump "noxious" and "reprehensible."

Privately, he compared him to Adolf Hitler. "America's Hitler."

….People will apparently do anything for power. He's a flip-flopper!

---

Most Republicans don't have any principles other than to take whatever they can grab..

---

It's fine to assert JD Vance is wholly fake, but he did, you know, walk a picket line with striking UAW workers. https://t.co/e4Dc3l75PT

— Matt Stoller (@matthewstoller) July 17, 2024

---

So, he's pro union?
That's a democrat position, yes?
I'm surprised you're pointing that out, that now that Peter Thiel is paying his way he's open to flip flop on everything he believes.

---

To me, the question about Vance is, what and how much does he really believe now... and what's he really gonna believe tomorrow (i.e. in 3 yrs). I could picture him being the face of the "working class GOP" of the future, but he's no dummy: he's gonna need to reconcile "being for the working class" while also lining the pockets of the rich. I really don't see the two as being compatible.

---

OK. Now do Joe Biden. And Kamala Harris. And the Clintons. How have their views changed over time? And can you tell me what their core beliefs are (other than pursuit of political power)?

Unlike all of those people, Vance has directly explained why he's changed positions and acknowledge his position has evolved. It may be that he's just another political opportunist, but at his core I think he's always been a populist and isolationist (by neocon standards). What's changed is his view as how to advance his populist and "no endless war" ideas. This is detailed in his interview with the NYT. Time will tell.

---

OK. Joe Biden: Centrist Dem, internationalist, has leaned a little left lately to placate the progressives in his party.
Kamala Harris: No particular core values, will go with anything within the Dem range that will help her that year.
Clintons: Liberals who moved further and further to the center to help themselves politically.

Here's my point about Vance:

Old GOP is favoring business and the wealthy, unashamedly, with minimal government intervention. Message to the working class is they are welcome to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and become wealthy in this land of opportunity.

New GOP is trying to entice the working class with cultural issues and, more and more, making some economic overtures to them, largely through tariffs and lowering immigration and also by vilifying a few scapegoats among the super-rich, such as Big Pharma, Wall Street, the Entertainment industry and trial lawyers.

Seems to me that the new GOP is controlled, at its core, by people who are trying to pretend to be for the working class, in order to get their votes, but will never deliver for them economically and I'm wondering at what point JD Vance will stop and say "Hmmm... " (If he ever will. As I have written, I don't think his core beliefs are yet full-formed.)

I agree that Vance has always been a populist, but maybe a little less now. And that's fine. But I really don't believe Trump is a populist at all, do you? And Vance now works for Trump.

And before you go and tell me that the elite among the Democrats are guilty of the same hypocrisy that I accuse the New GOP of, yes, that's true... but to a lesser extent.

Good discussion.

---

The funny thing is that per Vance's interview in the NY Times, he actually looked around and said "Hmmm . . . maybe Trump is the guy who will advance the working class' interest." I think that is a reflection of Vance's view that the establishment dems and republicans really serve the same interests (themselves and their monied benefactors). Lots of people have reached that conclusion.

I don't think trump is at his core a populist (in the way I think you and I use that word). He is first and foremost for himself and driven by his narcissism - not unlike Biden, the Clintons, and lots of other politicians from both parties. But secondly (and perhaps because it serves his political/narcissistic interests), he's anti-establishment - despite his wealth he does genuinely believe government is broken and that politicians don't serve the "regular" people's interest. I think that is where he and Vance probably intersect (basing this on Vance's NYT interview). Trump does appear to be sincerely "anti endless war" (again Vance has been consistent about that same view) and protectionist.

Beyond his words, we really don't know much about Vance's true motivations. However, his upbringing and personal history certainly make his words believable. He seems sincere but who knows? Hence my "time will tell".

In terms of relative hypocrisy, I think you're deluding yourself to think that one side does it more than the other. Sadly, both sides have mostly unprincipled leaders who often pander to the extremes in their parties. Look at the age of our current national leaders (from both parties) who cling to power because they simply cannot put the good of the country ahead of their own egos and endless desire for power/prestige. The system produces people like that.

GoOskie said:

---

"Trump makes people I care about afraid. Immigrants, Muslims, etc. Because of this I find him reprehensible. God wants better of us." -JD Vance

“Trump makes people I care about afraid. Immigrants, Muslims, etc. Because of this I find him reprehensible. God wants better of us” -- J.D. Vance, circa 2016. He wasn't wrong then. https://t.co/YKAXcAcPQW

— Peter Wehner (@Peter_Wehner) July 15, 2024

https://www.yahoo.com/news/newly-unearthed-audio-exposes-just-183437134.html

Trump is a "total fraud". - JD Vance

Maybe OskiPretzel003 can chime in on this with some more of his twisted logic.

---

Everyone knows he was an anti-Trumper in 2016. He has repeatedly explained that Trump's successes and policies while in office were what changed his mind.

Great scoop from 8 years ago! Btw, I do at least partially agree with some of Vance's 2016 concerns. Trump is very flawed.

oski003 said:

---

GoOskie said:

---

"Trump makes people I care about afraid. Immigrants, Muslims, etc. Because of this I find him reprehensible. God wants better of us." -JD Vance

“Trump makes people I care about afraid. Immigrants, Muslims, etc. Because of this I find him reprehensible. God wants better of us” -- J.D. Vance, circa 2016. He wasn't wrong then. https://t.co/YKAXcAcPQW

— Peter Wehner (@Peter_Wehner) July 15, 2024

https://www.yahoo.com/news/newly-unearthed-audio-exposes-just-183437134.html

Trump is a "total fraud". - JD Vance

Maybe OskiPretzel003 can chime in on this with some more of his twisted logic.

---

Everyone knows he was an anti-Trumper in 2016. He has repeatedly explained that Trump's successes and policies while in office were what changed his mind.

Great scoop from 8 years ago! Btw, I do at least partially agree with some of Vance's 2016 concerns. Trump is very flawed.

---

Flawed but far superior to the UniParty drones.

- no new wars!
- real wage growth
- 400+ miles of 30' Wall!.
- USMCA delivered in record time.
- China tariffs which clobbered China, and we had no inflation!
- took no salary, net worth dropped.
- got NATO to cough up hundreds of Billions.
- Five Mideast peace deals - should have gotten the [real] Nobel Peace Prize.
- peace talks w North Korea.
- dozens of hostages brought home for $0 - really knew how to wield power
- First Step act for African Americans feckless Obama never got far with.
- Right to Try Act.
- Veterans can go outside the VA, if needed.
- Etc.

All while being hounded by the FBI, DOJ, Spies, phony Impeachments, bugged, Russia Hoax, Server Hoax, perfect phone call per Ukraine, etc
-

bear2034 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Ask yourself...

Why are these guys supporting Trump? What are they hoping to get out of it?

Elon Musk says that Democrats gave a "very cold shoulder" to Tesla and SpaceX, which is absolutely ridiculous.

Is he expecting that Republicans will help him sell cars? You can't even buy a Tesla in Texas.

---

True, the Democratic Party has moved so far left that the Republican Party is now closest to the center https://t.co/Et4MQ5yobj

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 17, 2024

Elon Musk is moving Space X and X's headquarters to Texas. I wonder why?

---

Same reason he bought Twitter

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

concordtom said:

---

110 Days Til No Joe said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

"I'm a Never Trump guy," Vance said in an interview with Charlie Rose in 2016. "I never liked him."

…Vance tweet from October 2016. "My god what an idiot," he wrote, referring to Trump.

Vance expressed a similar sentiment in other interviews and since-deleted tweets from that time, including publicly mulling the idea of supporting Hillary Clinton, calling Trump "noxious" and "reprehensible."

Privately, he compared him to Adolf Hitler. "America's Hitler."

….People will apparently do anything for power. He's a flip-flopper!

---

Most Republicans don't have any principles other than to take whatever they can grab..

---

It's fine to assert JD Vance is wholly fake, but he did, you know, walk a picket line with striking UAW workers. https://t.co/e4Dc3l75PT

— Matt Stoller (@matthewstoller) July 17, 2024

---

So, he's pro union?
That's a democrat position, yes?
I'm surprised you're pointing that out, that now that Peter Thiel is paying his way he's open to flip flop on everything he believes.

---

To me, the question about Vance is, what and how much does he really believe now... and what's he really gonna believe tomorrow (i.e. in 3 yrs). I could picture him being the face of the "working class GOP" of the future, but he's no dummy: he's gonna need to reconcile "being for the working class" while also lining the pockets of the rich. I really don't see the two as being compatible.

---

OK. Now do Joe Biden. And Kamala Harris. And the Clintons. How have their views changed over time? And can you tell me what their core beliefs are (other than pursuit of political power)?

Unlike all of those people, Vance has directly explained why he's changed positions and acknowledge his position has evolved. It may be that he's just another political opportunist, but at his core I think he's always been a populist and isolationist (by neocon standards). What's changed is his view as how to advance his populist and "no endless war" ideas. This is detailed in his interview with the NYT. Time will tell.

---

OK. Joe Biden: Centrist Dem, internationalist, has leaned a little left lately to placate the progressives in his party.
Kamala Harris: No particular core values, will go with anything within the Dem range that will help her that year.
Clintons: Liberals who moved further and further to the center to help themselves politically.

Here's my point about Vance:

Old GOP is favoring business and the wealthy, unashamedly, with minimal government intervention. Message to the working class is they are welcome to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and become wealthy in this land of opportunity.

New GOP is trying to entice the working class with cultural issues and, more and more, making some economic overtures to them, largely through tariffs and lowering immigration and also by vilifying a few scapegoats among the super-rich, such as Big Pharma, Wall Street, the Entertainment industry and trial lawyers.

Seems to me that the new GOP is controlled, at its core, by people who are trying to pretend to be for the working class, in order to get their votes, but will never deliver for them economically and I'm wondering at what point JD Vance will stop and say "Hmmm... " (If he ever will. As I have written, I don't think his core beliefs are yet full-formed.)

I agree that Vance has always been a populist, but maybe a little less now. And that's fine. But I really don't believe Trump is a populist at all, do you? And Vance now works for Trump.

And before you go and tell me that the elite among the Democrats are guilty of the same hypocrisy that I accuse the New GOP of, yes, that's true... but to a lesser extent.

Good discussion.

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The funny thing is that per Vance's interview in the NY Times, he actually looked around and said "Hmmm . . . maybe Trump is the guy who will advance the working class' interest." I think that is a reflection of Vance's view that the establishment dems and republicans really serve the same interests (themselves and their monied benefactors). Lots of people have reached that conclusion.

I don't think trump is at his core a populist (in the way I think you and I use that word). He is first and foremost for himself and driven by his narcissism - not unlike Biden, the Clintons, and lots of other politicians from both parties. But secondly (and perhaps because it serves his political/narcissistic interests), he's anti-establishment - despite his wealth he does genuinely believe government is broken and that politicians don't serve the "regular" people's interest. I think that is where he and Vance probably intersect (basing this on Vance's NYT interview). Trump does appear to be sincerely "anti endless war" (again Vance has been consistent about that same view) and protectionist.

Beyond his words, we really don't know much about Vance's true motivations. However, his upbringing and personal history certainly make his words believable. He seems sincere but who knows? Hence my "time will tell".

In terms of relative hypocrisy, I think you're deluding yourself to think that one side does it more than the other. Sadly, both sides have mostly unprincipled leaders who often pander to the extremes in their parties. Look at the age of our current national leaders (from both parties) who cling to power because they simply cannot put the good of the country ahead of their own egos and endless desire for power/prestige. The system produces people like that.

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Thanks for the tempered, nuanced reply. True, both the GOP and the Dems are beholden to monied interests, but I feel like the Dems would be less likely to line the pockets of the rich with their policies in the areas of:

+ tax policies
+ climate change
+ general government regulations, especially as they pertain to consumer and labor interests

Foreign policy seems to cross party lines, lately.

Can you articulate the qualities you would like to see in a President and/or government?

Who will Trump pick as his veep?

Vance: I had a Diet Mountain Dew yesterday and one today. I'm sure they will call that racist. pic.twitter.com/z3ra8Y5F2f

— Acyn (@Acyn) July 22, 2024

bear2034 said:

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okaydo said:

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Who will Trump pick as his veep?

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Joe Biden. Game over.

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Already dumping JD Wentworth?

"Vance comes from degenerates, trying to mobilize a base of degenerates. People who think that Beshear can take on Vance in this kind of fight don't know how this works."

I can't believe Trump picked a sexy hunk as his running mate to appeal to women.

I just heard a rumor that JD Vance had sex with a coach?!?!