ICE

42,591 Views | 1023 Replies | Last: 30 min ago by Anarchistbear
Anarchistbear
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Minnesota should police ICE operations so that these trigger happy morons don't kill more of their citizens and arrest the ICE officer

DiabloWags
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tequila4kapp said:

It appears to me from the video the key moments from the point where she started driving forward to the point where a shot was fired was about 1 second, definitely not more than 2 seconds. The officer didn't draw his weapon until after she started forward. He had a split second to respond and didn't know if she was going to proceed straight at him, veer left or veer right. The word "reasonable" in the guideline you quoted is the operative word.


Why was the officer positioned standing in front of the vehicle in the first place?

That's not part of their training. ICE officers are trained to never approach a vehicle from the front and instead to approach in a "tactical L" 90-degree angle to prevent injury or crossfire.

Sure appears as though the officers were not following their training.
And they wound up "escalating":a situation to the point of being fatal due to not following PROTOCOL.

Policy on the Use of Force



"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
sycasey
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oski003 said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

She WAS blocking the road otherwise she would not have been able to wave people around. At that point the LEO is legally justified in approaching the vehicle and ordering her out. She is allegedly breaking federal law by impeding ICE operations. The arguments related to her waving people around would be relevant at her trial.

I'm sorry, but you cannot tell me that the ICE vehicle is "impeded" when one of them just drove past. They chose to get out of the truck and engage with her.




By your logic, if a car is perpendicular in the middle of the 405 freeway, it isn't impeding traffic. After all, cars can still go by either side of it.

A residential street where people are regularly pulling in and out of driveways is not a freeway.
sycasey
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tequila4kapp said:

The fact she did not fully impede all traffic does not mean she was not intending to and actually impeding ICE operations.

I withdrew an earlier comment saying I'd like to see additional information. I was thinking about a) how her vehicle got to that position; b) what the shooting officer was doing before she moved forward and why he was wherever he was. I would still like to get that info; it is very important, in part because it goes to this impeding question.

Yes, if there was evidence that she'd literally been blocking them all the way down the road or something, then you might have something here. From what I've seen on video it doesn't look like the ICE vehicles were truly impeded and you can even make a case that she was trying to get of their way but stopped to let them go past first, waving them through. (There's another car stopped behind her that she and anyone else would have to go around.)
DiabloWags
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sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

She WAS blocking the road otherwise she would not have been able to wave people around. At that point the LEO is legally justified in approaching the vehicle and ordering her out. She is allegedly breaking federal law by impeding ICE operations. The arguments related to her waving people around would be relevant at her trial.

I'm sorry, but you cannot tell me that the ICE vehicle is "impeded" when one of them just drove past. They chose to get out of the truck and engage with her.




By your logic, if a car is perpendicular in the middle of the 405 freeway, it isn't impeding traffic. After all, cars can still go by either side of it.

A residential street where people are regularly pulling in and out of driveways is not a freeway.


Yup, this is pretty obvious to most.
But maybe not all.
lol

"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
bearister
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Some of the comments in this thread, statements made by the POTUS and some of the sentiments expressed in the national discourse couldn't underscore this more emphatically:

America has become a very emotionally dark place for the sane. A pall has been cast.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside

“I love Cal deeply, by the way, what are the directions to The Portal from Sproul Plaza?”
oski003
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sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

She WAS blocking the road otherwise she would not have been able to wave people around. At that point the LEO is legally justified in approaching the vehicle and ordering her out. She is allegedly breaking federal law by impeding ICE operations. The arguments related to her waving people around would be relevant at her trial.

I'm sorry, but you cannot tell me that the ICE vehicle is "impeded" when one of them just drove past. They chose to get out of the truck and engage with her.




By your logic, if a car is perpendicular in the middle of the 405 freeway, it isn't impeding traffic. After all, cars can still go by either side of it.

A residential street where people are regularly pulling in and out of driveways is not a freeway.


There is a ton of action going on. The car is clearly impeding ice operations and traffic by parking perpendicular in the middle of the street. Sure, cars CAN go around it by driving in the icy area near the sidewalk. However, the impeding vehicle is causing chaos. This isn't a quiet street.
oski003
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DiabloWags said:

tequila4kapp said:

It appears to me from the video the key moments from the point where she started driving forward to the point where a shot was fired was about 1 second, definitely not more than 2 seconds. The officer didn't draw his weapon until after she started forward. He had a split second to respond and didn't know if she was going to proceed straight at him, veer left or veer right. The word "reasonable" in the guideline you quoted is the operative word.


Why was the officer positioned standing in front of the vehicle in the first place?

That's not part of their training. ICE officers are trained to never approach a vehicle from the front and instead to approach in a "tactical L" 90-degree angle to prevent injury or crossfire.

Sure appears as though the officers were not following their training.
And they wound up "escalating":a situation to the point of being fatal due to not following PROTOCOL.

Policy on the Use of Force




The officer was approaching the car from the opposite side. As he was moving across the front of the non-moving car, it sped backward and turned and sped forward toward that officer. It isn't at simple as approaching directly from the front.
oski003
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DiabloWags said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

She WAS blocking the road otherwise she would not have been able to wave people around. At that point the LEO is legally justified in approaching the vehicle and ordering her out. She is allegedly breaking federal law by impeding ICE operations. The arguments related to her waving people around would be relevant at her trial.

I'm sorry, but you cannot tell me that the ICE vehicle is "impeded" when one of them just drove past. They chose to get out of the truck and engage with her.




By your logic, if a car is perpendicular in the middle of the 405 freeway, it isn't impeding traffic. After all, cars can still go by either side of it.

A residential street where people are regularly pulling in and out of driveways is not a freeway.


Yup, this is pretty obvious to most.
But maybe not all.
lol




Did somebody say the busy residential street was actually a freeway? I must have missed that. Do better than one sentence zingers spamming the board with zero organic thoughts.
bearister
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*Trump's DOJ will never file charges and if it did and the officer was convicted, Trump would pardon him.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside

“I love Cal deeply, by the way, what are the directions to The Portal from Sproul Plaza?”
cal83dls79
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Yup.
Have they put the guy on administrative leave leave yet?
Priest of the Patty Hearst Shrine
oski003
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bearister said:





*Trump's DOJ will never file charges and if it did and the officer was convicted, Trump would pardon him.


Did the shooter actually deny medics? If so, what was his rationale and how long were medics denied for?
cal83dls79
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In the video after the shooting he is walking just fine towards the car. In retrospect he may want to have been limping.
Priest of the Patty Hearst Shrine
tequila4kapp
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The jurisdiction makes trying the case virtually impossible.

I am pretty suspect of those bullet point quotes coming from actual defense attorneys. Shots 2 and 3 would likely be covered by officer training. The turned wheels would be a question of what he saw (if anything), when he saw it and how much time elapsed. The medics point is likely irrelevant, potentially unless the shooting officer is the person who denied access.
DiabloWags
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bearister said:

Some of the comments in this thread, statements made by the POTUS and some of the sentiments expressed in the national discourse couldn't underscore this more emphatically:

America has become a very emotionally dark place for the sane. A pall has been cast.


Trump's America





"America has lost its moral bearings.
As a result, it has also lost its moral standing in the world"



Trump's Plan Is Now Out in the Open - The Atlantic


"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
sycasey
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oski003 said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

She WAS blocking the road otherwise she would not have been able to wave people around. At that point the LEO is legally justified in approaching the vehicle and ordering her out. She is allegedly breaking federal law by impeding ICE operations. The arguments related to her waving people around would be relevant at her trial.

I'm sorry, but you cannot tell me that the ICE vehicle is "impeded" when one of them just drove past. They chose to get out of the truck and engage with her.




By your logic, if a car is perpendicular in the middle of the 405 freeway, it isn't impeding traffic. After all, cars can still go by either side of it.

A residential street where people are regularly pulling in and out of driveways is not a freeway.


There is a ton of action going on. The car is clearly impeding ice operations and traffic by parking perpendicular in the middle of the street. Sure, cars CAN go around it by driving in the icy area near the sidewalk. However, the impeding vehicle is causing chaos. This isn't a quiet street.

Let's watch the video again:



No one has to drive in "the icy area near the sidewalk." It's literally just the other lane on a two-late street. Let's be honest.

Yes, some cars are in the road. Not clear why they are there, but let's assume they are protestors and/or people trying to record ICE activity. I would say that if the ICE officers wanted this woman's car to clear the road, they should have first asked her to do so before escalating to a demand that she get out of her car and (probably) detaining her. To me, the fact that she had already waved one of them through and appears to be trying to pull out of her spot (she has to move forward to do this because of the car behind her) indicates that she was probably already told to move and is trying to comply. I don't know that for certain, but it seems like the most likely explanation to me. Someone who is trying to obstruct ICE at all costs would not have been waving one of their vehicles through.

Then some of these guys run up on her car, try to open her door and force her out (I don't understand why they need to do this), and another approaches from the other side with a gun. She freaks out and tries to leave as quickly as possible (her likely original intent). The one with a gun opens fire after incorrectly approaching her vehicle from the front.
SBGold
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oski003 said:

cal83dls79 said:

BearlySane88 said:

For what exactly? The more angles I see, the shoot was justified.

It shouldn't have happened and this is a terrible look. But legally it looks justified

wrongful death suits for one, but I'm not an attorney. Maybe they can chime in.


A successful wrongful death suit unfortunately encourages more dangerous behavior by rioting nutjobs. Driving your car at a law enforcement officer pointing a gun at you is the cause of getting shot by that officer. I still think the officer should be fired. We need folks that use better judgment when facing rioting nutjobs.

Rioting nutjobs? That's totally absurd. Sad what our country has devolved into
oski003
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sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

She WAS blocking the road otherwise she would not have been able to wave people around. At that point the LEO is legally justified in approaching the vehicle and ordering her out. She is allegedly breaking federal law by impeding ICE operations. The arguments related to her waving people around would be relevant at her trial.

I'm sorry, but you cannot tell me that the ICE vehicle is "impeded" when one of them just drove past. They chose to get out of the truck and engage with her.




By your logic, if a car is perpendicular in the middle of the 405 freeway, it isn't impeding traffic. After all, cars can still go by either side of it.

A residential street where people are regularly pulling in and out of driveways is not a freeway.


There is a ton of action going on. The car is clearly impeding ice operations and traffic by parking perpendicular in the middle of the street. Sure, cars CAN go around it by driving in the icy area near the sidewalk. However, the impeding vehicle is causing chaos. This isn't a quiet street.

Let's watch the video again:



No one has to drive in "the icy area near the sidewalk." It's literally just the other lane on a two-late street. Let's be honest.

Yes, some cars are in the road. Not clear why they are there, but let's assume they are protestors and/or people trying to record ICE activity. I would say that if the ICE officers wanted this woman's car to clear the road, they should have first asked her to do so before escalating to a demand that she get out of her car and (probably) detaining her. To me, the fact that she had already waved one of them through and appears to be trying to pull out of her spot (she has to move forward to do this because of the car behind her) indicates that she was probably already told to move and is trying to comply. I don't know that for certain, but it seems like the most likely explanation to me. Someone who is trying to obstruct ICE at all costs would not have been waving one of their vehicles through.

Then some of these guys run up on her car, try to open her door and force her out (I don't understand why they need to do this), and another approaches from the other side with a gun. She freaks out and tries to leave as quickly as possible (her likely original intent). The one with a gun opens fire after incorrectly approaching her vehicle from the front.

You are basing your conclusions off of 8 seconds of video. It is a two lane street. She is clearly blocking one of the lanes. The area outside of these two lanes is icy and has snow. The officer behind the car is talking to the driver's angry girlfriend who is calling at the ICE agents to get out of the neighborhood. It is a messed up situation. ICE reported that she had been blocking them multiple times.

SBGold
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bearister said:





*Trump's DOJ will never file charges and if it did and the officer was convicted, Trump would pardon him.

Having been a counsel for police departments before, checks will be paid. Fairly big amounts.

Criminal cases against police tend to be tougher to get convictions.
sycasey
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oski003 said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

She WAS blocking the road otherwise she would not have been able to wave people around. At that point the LEO is legally justified in approaching the vehicle and ordering her out. She is allegedly breaking federal law by impeding ICE operations. The arguments related to her waving people around would be relevant at her trial.

I'm sorry, but you cannot tell me that the ICE vehicle is "impeded" when one of them just drove past. They chose to get out of the truck and engage with her.




By your logic, if a car is perpendicular in the middle of the 405 freeway, it isn't impeding traffic. After all, cars can still go by either side of it.

A residential street where people are regularly pulling in and out of driveways is not a freeway.


There is a ton of action going on. The car is clearly impeding ice operations and traffic by parking perpendicular in the middle of the street. Sure, cars CAN go around it by driving in the icy area near the sidewalk. However, the impeding vehicle is causing chaos. This isn't a quiet street.

Let's watch the video again:



No one has to drive in "the icy area near the sidewalk." It's literally just the other lane on a two-late street. Let's be honest.

Yes, some cars are in the road. Not clear why they are there, but let's assume they are protestors and/or people trying to record ICE activity. I would say that if the ICE officers wanted this woman's car to clear the road, they should have first asked her to do so before escalating to a demand that she get out of her car and (probably) detaining her. To me, the fact that she had already waved one of them through and appears to be trying to pull out of her spot (she has to move forward to do this because of the car behind her) indicates that she was probably already told to move and is trying to comply. I don't know that for certain, but it seems like the most likely explanation to me. Someone who is trying to obstruct ICE at all costs would not have been waving one of their vehicles through.

Then some of these guys run up on her car, try to open her door and force her out (I don't understand why they need to do this), and another approaches from the other side with a gun. She freaks out and tries to leave as quickly as possible (her likely original intent). The one with a gun opens fire after incorrectly approaching her vehicle from the front.

You are basing your conclusions off of 8 seconds of video. It is a two lane street. She is clearly blocking one of the lanes. The area outside of these two lanes is icy and has snow. The officer behind the car is talking to the driver's angry girlfriend who is calling at the ICE agents to get out of the neighborhood. It is a messed up situation. ICE reported that she had been blocking them multiple times.

I'm basing my conclusions off of the only hard evidence that exists at this time. If more emerges, I will change my conclusions.

Yes, the area outside of the two lanes is icy. But you said the other cars had to go around the stopped car by driving on the icy area near the sidewalk. Not true. They used the other lane.

"ICE reported" doesn't mean much to me, given that DHS has already been caught lying about this incident. If we get confirmation from other video or multiple eyewitnesses that this car had actually been blocking the road multiple times before this incident then I might lean further in your direction. So far, what I've seen indicates that the ICE officers instigated a confrontation when they didn't need to.
cal83dls79
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I tried telling that to someone here but they didn't believe me.
Priest of the Patty Hearst Shrine
tequila4kapp
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sycasey said:

Then some of these guys run up on her car, try to open her door and force her out (I don't understand why they need to do this), and another approaches from the other side with a gun. She freaks out and tries to leave as quickly as possible (her likely original intent). The one with a gun opens fire after incorrectly approaching her vehicle from the front.

A few points of order.
- Nobody "ran" up on her car.
- They are allowed to forcibly remove her from the car because she did not comply with their order to do so.
- They are LEO...all of them 'approached with (holstered) guns'. The shooter's gun was 100% holstered up to the moment she starting driving.
- I don't think it is clear from the video that the shooting officer approached her car from the front. There is new video on CNN from a new angle - facing the SUV. The officer definitely moves to the driver's left across the front of the SUV.

FWIW the same CNN segment with the new video also reports that her car had been position on the road in that location for 3 minutes before this incident occurred. If true...yeah, nobody 'parks' perpendicular like that on a road...she's there to impede ICE.
sycasey
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tequila4kapp said:

sycasey said:

Then some of these guys run up on her car, try to open her door and force her out (I don't understand why they need to do this), and another approaches from the other side with a gun. She freaks out and tries to leave as quickly as possible (her likely original intent). The one with a gun opens fire after incorrectly approaching her vehicle from the front.

A few points of order.
- Nobody "ran" up on her car.
- They are allowed to forcibly remove her from the car because she did not comply with their order to do so.
- They are LEO...all of them 'approached with (holstered) guns'. The shooter's gun was 100% holstered up to the moment she starting driving.
- I don't think it is clear from the video that the shooting officer approached her car from the front. There is new video on CNN from a new angle - facing the SUV. The officer definitely moves to the driver's left across the front of the SUV.

FWIW the same CNN segment with the new video also reports that her car had been position on the road in that location for 3 minutes before this incident occurred. If true...yeah, nobody 'parks' perpendicular like that on a road...she's there to impede ICE.

Note that I didn't ask whether or not they are "allowed" to forcibly remove her. I asked why they NEEDED to. Seems like they could have easily driven around the parked cars, even if they were blocking part of the road. My evidence for this is that their colleague had just driven past that car.
oski003
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tequila4kapp said:

sycasey said:

Then some of these guys run up on her car, try to open her door and force her out (I don't understand why they need to do this), and another approaches from the other side with a gun. She freaks out and tries to leave as quickly as possible (her likely original intent). The one with a gun opens fire after incorrectly approaching her vehicle from the front.

A few points of order.
- Nobody "ran" up on her car.
- They are allowed to forcibly remove her from the car because she did not comply with their order to do so.
- They are LEO...all of them 'approached with (holstered) guns'. The shooter's gun was 100% holstered up to the moment she starting driving.
- I don't think it is clear from the video that the shooting officer approached her car from the front. There is new video on CNN from a new angle - facing the SUV. The officer definitely moves to the driver's left across the front of the SUV.

FWIW the same CNN segment with the new video also reports that her car had been position on the road in that location for 3 minutes before this incident occurred. If true...yeah, nobody 'parks' perpendicular like that on a road...she's there to impede ICE.

FYI, the person Bearister linked, Adam Cochran, alleges that ICE is not allowed to stop anybody for any reason unless they are suspected of being an illegal immigrant. He states that ICE was not allowed to approach her at all.
tequila4kapp
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oski003 said:

FYI, the person Bearister linked, Adam Cochran, alleges that ICE is not allowed to stop anybody for any reason unless they are suspected of being an illegal immigrant. He states that ICE was not allowed to approach her at all.

8 USC 1357. Powers of immigration officers and employees
(a) Powers without warrant
Any officer or employee of the Service authorized under regulations prescribed by the Attorney General shall have power without warrant-
***
(5) to make arrests-
(A) for any offense against the United States, if the offense is committed in the officer's or employee's presence, or

***

----
Unless there is case law to the contrary - and assuming it is a federal offense to impede / obstruct ICE activities - the plain language of the federal statute detailing ICE powers shows that Cochran is wrong.
SpecSlayer
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Even if the person was impeding the ICE operation, isn't it better to let the illegal immigrant get away rather than kill an American citizen...?
BearlySane88
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I haven't said anything about her shooting so idk how you think you know my opinions on it

All deaths are sad and I would love for nobody to be killed ever.

That being said, if you disobey law enforcement of any kind, the consequences are on you. If you try to hurt or harm law enforcement of any kind, the consequences are on you
BearlySane88
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Bingo
BearlySane88
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I've already said multiple times that she shouldn't have been shot. Some times it helps to read.

Very sad that this woman was shot and killed.

My only argument throughout this entire thread was that it was a legally justified shooting.

Both things can be true.
smh
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^ killer
FUNK TRUNK !
PAC-10-BEAR
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She was a single mother spending her time obstructing law enforcement.

She made the terrible mistake of doing it with the use of a vehicle.
DiabloWags
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PAC-10-BEAR said:

She was a single mother spending her time obstructing law enforcement.

She made the terrible mistake of doing it with the use of a vehicle.

Kind of like your patriot hero Ashli Babbit
Shot by a Capitol Police officer while breaching a barricaded doorway




You Cannot Exonerate Ashli Babbitt and Blame Renee GoodBut That's Exactly What Trump Is Doing
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
PAC-10-BEAR
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DiabloWags said:

PAC-10-BEAR said:

She was a single mother spending her time obstructing law enforcement.

She made the terrible mistake of doing it with the use of a vehicle.

Kind of like your patriot hero Ashli Babbit
Shot by a Capitol Police officer while breaching a barricaded doorway

No, I don't think Ashli Babbit was behind the wheel of a moving vehicle.
PAC-10-BEAR
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PAC-10-BEAR
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The ICE agent is the SAME AGENT who required 33 stitches after an illegal alien dragged him 100 yards while his arm was still inside the car.

The vehicle ACCELERATED and WEAVED - resulting in some bad lacerations for this officer.

CBS: "[He] has over 10 years experience. He is a member of the ICE ERO Special Response Team (SRT) a specially trained tactical unit within ICE Enforcement and Removal Operations."
 
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