The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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10% For The Big Guy
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In reply to sycasey • 7:29p, 11/1/23
sycasey said:
wifeisafurd said:
10% For The Big Guy said:


Biden voters only care about children killed on U.S. soil though. Killing Palestinian children is okay cause Biden supports it.
Not to mention children killed on Ukraine soil? Not hearing much about them.
Apparently they're all Nazis, so they don't count.

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Big C
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In reply to Cal88 • 9:19p, 11/1/23
Cal88 said:
Close to 40,000 buildings in Gaza have been bombarded so far:


Not sure how the Israeli leadership could have possibly thought that a blunt, heavy-handed response like this could be in their best interests, long-term. The Hamas attack was horrific, to be sure, and called for a response, but it was worth maybe a week's worth of news cycles and now we get this. Day after day after day... and who knows when it will end.
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to Big C • 10:26p, 11/1/23
Big C said:

Not sure how the Israeli leadership could have possibly thought that a blunt, heavy-handed response like this could be in their best interests, long-term. The Hamas attack was horrific, to be sure, and called for a response, but it was worth maybe a week's worth of news cycles and now we get this. Day after day after day... and who knows when it will end.
We don't know how it will end but we do know that Hamas is fully committed to genocide.

If you compare to the Russia/Ukraine conflict, Russia (which is supporting Hamas) believes they have the right to annihilate Ukraine for even hinting at getting closer to NATO but they pretend to think that Israeli should just welcome Hamas' attacks.

I continue to believe that the Israel experiment ends in one of two ways: another holocaust or jewish people leaving of their own volition. They live in a hostile region that has always had people committed to their extermination and we've seen no real evidence of that changing. That said, it's not clear to me exactly how much "defense" against genocide is appropriate at this time. Hamas (together with its supporters in Tehran and Moscow) couldn't care less about what happens to the peaceful citizens of Gaza and has no interest in a cease-fire, except insofar as it gives them a breather to continue to attempt genocide.

Don't take my word for it, they keep telling us the same.




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sycasey
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 10:45p, 11/1/23
Unit2Sucks said:
Big C said:

Not sure how the Israeli leadership could have possibly thought that a blunt, heavy-handed response like this could be in their best interests, long-term. The Hamas attack was horrific, to be sure, and called for a response, but it was worth maybe a week's worth of news cycles and now we get this. Day after day after day... and who knows when it will end.
We don't know how it will end but we do know that Hamas is fully committed to genocide.

And Israel's government seems to increasingly think they should rise to that standard.
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10% For The Big Guy
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 5:19a, 11/2/23
Unit2Sucks said:
Big C said:

Not sure how the Israeli leadership could have possibly thought that a blunt, heavy-handed response like this could be in their best interests, long-term. The Hamas attack was horrific, to be sure, and called for a response, but it was worth maybe a week's worth of news cycles and now we get this. Day after day after day... and who knows when it will end.
We don't know how it will end but we do know that Hamas is fully committed to genocide.

If you compare to the Russia/Ukraine conflict, Russia (which is supporting Hamas) believes they have the right to annihilate Ukraine for even hinting at getting closer to NATO but they pretend to think that Israeli should just welcome Hamas' attacks.
I love that in your desperation as the U.S. proxy war winds down in utter defeat that you've resorted to trying to assert that Russia supports Hamas when reality is quite a bit murkier.

Quote:
Israeli President Benjamin Netanyahu used to call Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, his "dear friend." Since 2015, the Israeli leader has visited Russia more than 10 times, and proudly hung a giant poster of the two presidents shaking hands over his party headquarters during an election campaign in 2019.
I haven't laughed this hard since BearGoggles refused to acknowledge that Netanyahu has been supporting Hamas for years to prevent a two-state solution.


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tequila4kapp
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In reply to movielover • 8:58a, 11/2/23
movielover said:
tequila4kapp said:
dimitrig said:
oski003 said:
KPG said:
tequila4kapp said:
KPG said:
tequila4kapp said:
Less a shift to the right and more a human reaction to having your citizens burned alive, women raped, children beheaded, citizens kidnapped, etc. The 2nd Intifada wasn't a basket of roses but this invasion and the killing spree is next level stuff.
Oh well in that case let's just greenlight killing them all I guess? Or did you have a specific number in mind for the appropriate human reaction? Clearly it's something higher than 8,000.
We could ask Hamas to answer that question - since they innately endanger Palestinian lives by refusing to allow them to move, store their weapons near civilian sites, keep humanitarian aid for themselves, and put their HQ underneath hospitals - but I suspect that would not be satisfying to some since it doesn't blame Israel.


I'm just going to put you down for the Lindsay Graham answer then I guess of "No, there shouldn't be a limit to civilian casualties".

Listen, if I thought for one minute that completely eradicating Hamas by killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians would then lead to safety for Israel and self-determination and prosperity for the Palestinian people, then I'd at least consider the price. But you are absolutely delusional of you think this is the path towards regional safety and stability. This isn't a strategy, this is ugly revenge. If you think that killing tens of thousands of refugees and civilians won't sow the seeds to create the next Hamas, you have the thoughtspan of a goldfish, the political instincts of a US Senator, and the stock portfolio of a Raytheon Board Member.

Bolivia is now eliminating diplomatic ties with Israel. Chile is recalling their embassador. International legitimacy is waning. The Houthi's are ramping up their war. The Iron Dome is depleted, Hamas still has 2/3rds of their rockets, and Hezbollah has tens of thousands and has been systematically targeting security and monitoring technology on the northern front, leaving Israel largely blind. Indiscriminately murdering Palestinians with no regard for proportionality is moving Israel closer to a pariah state than a secure democracy.

You guys think I come on here to bash Israel and score woke points, but there is no path that will lead more quickly to Israel's actual existential threat then continuing to support a far right religious extremist government in their quest to murder a colonized people.


If Hamas would surrender, this would all stop. If they want to fight, perhaps they can meet on the battlefield Braveheart style instead of constant terrorist attacks from civilian centers.
Whether it is in Ukraine or Israel, why do some people think that people who are being repressed need to surrender in order to stop injustices or that the injustices will cease once a military surrender occurs?
Hamas is not the Palestinians and Palestinians are not Hamas.
Palestinians are repressed, not Hamas.
Haven't they voted them in, or did they use rigged Dominion machines too?
I could be mistaken but I think the last elections were in something like 2005 or 2006.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to sycasey • 9:03a, 11/2/23
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wifeisafurd
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 9:18a, 11/2/23
Unit2Sucks said:
Big C said:

Not sure how the Israeli leadership could have possibly thought that a blunt, heavy-handed response like this could be in their best interests, long-term. The Hamas attack was horrific, to be sure, and called for a response, but it was worth maybe a week's worth of news cycles and now we get this. Day after day after day... and who knows when it will end.
We don't know how it will end but we do know that Hamas is fully committed to genocide.

If you compare to the Russia/Ukraine conflict, Russia (which is supporting Hamas) believes they have the right to annihilate Ukraine for even hinting at getting closer to NATO but they pretend to think that Israeli should just welcome Hamas' attacks.

I continue to believe that the Israel experiment ends in one of two ways: another holocaust or jewish people leaving of their own volition. They live in a hostile region that has always had people committed to their extermination and we've seen no real evidence of that changing. That said, it's not clear to me exactly how much "defense" against genocide is appropriate at this time. Hamas (together with its supporters in Tehran and Moscow) couldn't care less about what happens to the peaceful citizens of Gaza and has no interest in a cease-fire, except insofar as it gives them a breather to continue to attempt genocide.

Don't take my word for it, they keep telling us the same.




listening to the Hamas guy, it doesn't sound like the war in Gaza will end anytime soon.
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sycasey
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 9:31a, 11/2/23
tequila4kapp said:
movielover said:
tequila4kapp said:
dimitrig said:
oski003 said:
KPG said:
tequila4kapp said:
KPG said:
tequila4kapp said:
Less a shift to the right and more a human reaction to having your citizens burned alive, women raped, children beheaded, citizens kidnapped, etc. The 2nd Intifada wasn't a basket of roses but this invasion and the killing spree is next level stuff.
Oh well in that case let's just greenlight killing them all I guess? Or did you have a specific number in mind for the appropriate human reaction? Clearly it's something higher than 8,000.
We could ask Hamas to answer that question - since they innately endanger Palestinian lives by refusing to allow them to move, store their weapons near civilian sites, keep humanitarian aid for themselves, and put their HQ underneath hospitals - but I suspect that would not be satisfying to some since it doesn't blame Israel.


I'm just going to put you down for the Lindsay Graham answer then I guess of "No, there shouldn't be a limit to civilian casualties".

Listen, if I thought for one minute that completely eradicating Hamas by killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians would then lead to safety for Israel and self-determination and prosperity for the Palestinian people, then I'd at least consider the price. But you are absolutely delusional of you think this is the path towards regional safety and stability. This isn't a strategy, this is ugly revenge. If you think that killing tens of thousands of refugees and civilians won't sow the seeds to create the next Hamas, you have the thoughtspan of a goldfish, the political instincts of a US Senator, and the stock portfolio of a Raytheon Board Member.

Bolivia is now eliminating diplomatic ties with Israel. Chile is recalling their embassador. International legitimacy is waning. The Houthi's are ramping up their war. The Iron Dome is depleted, Hamas still has 2/3rds of their rockets, and Hezbollah has tens of thousands and has been systematically targeting security and monitoring technology on the northern front, leaving Israel largely blind. Indiscriminately murdering Palestinians with no regard for proportionality is moving Israel closer to a pariah state than a secure democracy.

You guys think I come on here to bash Israel and score woke points, but there is no path that will lead more quickly to Israel's actual existential threat then continuing to support a far right religious extremist government in their quest to murder a colonized people.


If Hamas would surrender, this would all stop. If they want to fight, perhaps they can meet on the battlefield Braveheart style instead of constant terrorist attacks from civilian centers.
Whether it is in Ukraine or Israel, why do some people think that people who are being repressed need to surrender in order to stop injustices or that the injustices will cease once a military surrender occurs?
Hamas is not the Palestinians and Palestinians are not Hamas.
Palestinians are repressed, not Hamas.
Haven't they voted them in, or did they use rigged Dominion machines too?
I could be mistaken but I think the last elections were in something like 2005 or 2006.
Yup, Hamas won a plurality of votes in the legislative elections in 2006 and haven't held any more elections since. So yes, it's true to say they were voted in, but more than half the population of Gaza today would not have been able to vote in that election.
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wifeisafurd
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In reply to sycasey • 10:12a, 11/2/23
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
movielover said:
tequila4kapp said:
dimitrig said:
oski003 said:
KPG said:
tequila4kapp said:
KPG said:
tequila4kapp said:
Less a shift to the right and more a human reaction to having your citizens burned alive, women raped, children beheaded, citizens kidnapped, etc. The 2nd Intifada wasn't a basket of roses but this invasion and the killing spree is next level stuff.
Oh well in that case let's just greenlight killing them all I guess? Or did you have a specific number in mind for the appropriate human reaction? Clearly it's something higher than 8,000.
We could ask Hamas to answer that question - since they innately endanger Palestinian lives by refusing to allow them to move, store their weapons near civilian sites, keep humanitarian aid for themselves, and put their HQ underneath hospitals - but I suspect that would not be satisfying to some since it doesn't blame Israel.


I'm just going to put you down for the Lindsay Graham answer then I guess of "No, there shouldn't be a limit to civilian casualties".

Listen, if I thought for one minute that completely eradicating Hamas by killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians would then lead to safety for Israel and self-determination and prosperity for the Palestinian people, then I'd at least consider the price. But you are absolutely delusional of you think this is the path towards regional safety and stability. This isn't a strategy, this is ugly revenge. If you think that killing tens of thousands of refugees and civilians won't sow the seeds to create the next Hamas, you have the thoughtspan of a goldfish, the political instincts of a US Senator, and the stock portfolio of a Raytheon Board Member.

Bolivia is now eliminating diplomatic ties with Israel. Chile is recalling their embassador. International legitimacy is waning. The Houthi's are ramping up their war. The Iron Dome is depleted, Hamas still has 2/3rds of their rockets, and Hezbollah has tens of thousands and has been systematically targeting security and monitoring technology on the northern front, leaving Israel largely blind. Indiscriminately murdering Palestinians with no regard for proportionality is moving Israel closer to a pariah state than a secure democracy.

You guys think I come on here to bash Israel and score woke points, but there is no path that will lead more quickly to Israel's actual existential threat then continuing to support a far right religious extremist government in their quest to murder a colonized people.


If Hamas would surrender, this would all stop. If they want to fight, perhaps they can meet on the battlefield Braveheart style instead of constant terrorist attacks from civilian centers.
Whether it is in Ukraine or Israel, why do some people think that people who are being repressed need to surrender in order to stop injustices or that the injustices will cease once a military surrender occurs?
Hamas is not the Palestinians and Palestinians are not Hamas.
Palestinians are repressed, not Hamas.
Haven't they voted them in, or did they use rigged Dominion machines too?
I could be mistaken but I think the last elections were in something like 2005 or 2006.
Yup, Hamas won a plurality of votes in the legislative elections in 2006 and haven't held any more elections since. So yes, it's true to say they were voted in, but more than half the population of Gaza today would not have been able to vote in that election.
And in the interim Hamas enraged in a terror campaign to kill PLO leaders, which is a rather effective way to eliminate your political opposition.
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movielover
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In reply to wifeisafurd • 10:58a, 11/2/23
Doesn't he have the mark of the beast, like Gorby?
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to wifeisafurd • 11:04a, 11/2/23
wifeisafurd said:
Unit2Sucks said:
Big C said:

Not sure how the Israeli leadership could have possibly thought that a blunt, heavy-handed response like this could be in their best interests, long-term. The Hamas attack was horrific, to be sure, and called for a response, but it was worth maybe a week's worth of news cycles and now we get this. Day after day after day... and who knows when it will end.
We don't know how it will end but we do know that Hamas is fully committed to genocide.

If you compare to the Russia/Ukraine conflict, Russia (which is supporting Hamas) believes they have the right to annihilate Ukraine for even hinting at getting closer to NATO but they pretend to think that Israeli should just welcome Hamas' attacks.

I continue to believe that the Israel experiment ends in one of two ways: another holocaust or jewish people leaving of their own volition. They live in a hostile region that has always had people committed to their extermination and we've seen no real evidence of that changing. That said, it's not clear to me exactly how much "defense" against genocide is appropriate at this time. Hamas (together with its supporters in Tehran and Moscow) couldn't care less about what happens to the peaceful citizens of Gaza and has no interest in a cease-fire, except insofar as it gives them a breather to continue to attempt genocide.

Don't take my word for it, they keep telling us the same.




listening to the Hamas guy, it doesn't sound like the war in Gaza will end anytime soon.
Hamas seems committed to continuing the violence. Israel is still facing daily rockets and they've been dealing with rocket attacks for decades without invading Gaza.

Western media doesn't like to talk about it, but it's not the case that Gazans are thrilled with Hamas. Many of them recognize the fact that Hamas has brought this down upon them intentionally. Hamas could take up arms wearing uniforms and identifying themselves but have chosen not to do so. Hamas could do a lot of things but at every step has prioritized their desire for genocide above the wellbeing of the Palestinian people.

So when does the war end? It seems likely that it won't end until Hamas is neutralized or at least weakened to a point where they can no longer present an acute threat to Israel. I don't see any medium or long-term solution.


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movielover
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11:20a, 11/2/23
Israel isn't the only country that has built a wall between themselves and Gaza.
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Cal88
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In reply to movielover • 12:18p, 11/2/23
movielover said:
Israel isn't the only country that has built a wall between themselves and Gaza.

Israel controls the Gaza border with Egypt, they have been blocking the aid truck caravan for weeks, allowing a small trickle to get through:

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Zippergate
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3:50p, 11/2/23
Muslims around the world chant "Khaybar." What does that mean?
A former Muslim explains it...

Khaybar

Brainwashing children...

Poisoning the Prophet

Nature itself will help kill the Jews...

"O Muslim, O slave of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him"

This conflict is only peripherally about land. This is a religious war.


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wifeisafurd
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In reply to 10% For The Big Guy • 4:42p, 11/2/23
10% For The Big Guy said:
sycasey said:
wifeisafurd said:
10% For The Big Guy said:


Biden voters only care about children killed on U.S. soil though. Killing Palestinian children is okay cause Biden supports it.
Not to mention children killed on Ukraine soil? Not hearing much about them.
Apparently they're all Nazis, so they don't count.

This seems to be the usual retweet of someone making a one-sided statement, without including the other side's remarks, as is the case here, Austin's response. I think most non-partisan people who see this approach, discount the content.

But some provisos first on the Biden Administration's views and Austin's response:

1) Biden and others repeatedly has said this it is not a war aim of Israel to kill innocent civilians the way it is a war aim of Vladimir Putin to do that in Ukraine.

2) Biden in particular has said he does not trust the statistics on civilian casualties, since the primary source for numbers (and I presume this includes UN numbers) is Hamas.

With that said, it seems logical the civilian toll (children and adults) will be higher in Gaza because of the difference in the fighting. In Ukraine, you have a front with two military forces somewhat stalemated. Russia from time to time launches a bucket load of missiles (plural) on civilian populations for deliberate scare tactics. In Gaza, Israel is blazing its way through dense civilian areas where Hamas is hiding and going after targets where the believe Hamas is located. In the instant case, they went after a Hamas leader and Hamas trenches under a refugee camp with a single missile.

There is a certain irony that no one seems to mind when the US or its allies send a drone to shoot a missile at enemy leaders or the collateral damage that occurs in civilian areas. Nor is it when the US or allies engage in more massive intrusions in civilian areas. Indeed, I suspect a lot people on this board were quietly cheering as American troops were shown blasting their way through civilian Mogadishu in Black Hawk Down killing thousands of Somalians. Nor do I hear any whining about collateral damage when the US and allies bombed Iraq into the Stone Age or things that happened Afghanistan, other than a momentary passing comment by Biden about mistakes. Clearly, Israel in fighting this war is held to a different standard.

If Hamas is going to in essence use human shields, and Israel has made the decision to say we don't care, it is unrealistic to think where there is is a ground attack under way in such a densely populated area that the civilian toll is going to be anywhere even close to what is going on in Ukraine - it has to be higher.

That doesn't detract from the fact that no one seems to be talking about the children of Ukraine and the fact they are intended targets, rather than what Americans would justify as collateral damage when we are the attackers in the case of Israel.



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Unit2Sucks
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6:20p, 11/2/23
More atrocities, but without any traces of anti-semitism to drive outrage.

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movielover
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6:27p, 11/2/23
Dr. Jordan Peterson notes Trump peace deals, slams State Dept; Piers Morgan repeatedly ignores the Abraham Accords (video)

Piers Morgan recently interviewed Dr. Jordan Peterson about the Gaza war. Its an adult, sober discussion. JP praised the Abraham Accords (five) negotiated by the Trump Administration, and apparently they had to GO AROUND the State Department to accomplish this!

"Biggest development in 75 years", and Dr. Peterson says President Trump should have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize for it. He suggests now adding Saudia Arabia to the pacts might help calm down the Palestinians and show the writing on the wall. (Peace, cooperation.)

He also delves into the 'oppressor' vs 'victim' narratives.

JP speculates that the Biden Administration delayed adding SA to the Accords out of spite for the Trump Administration. Politics. He reportedly has recently mentioned it as an opportunity.

Dr. Peterson mentions the Abraham Accords several times, and Piers Morgan ignored it.

He also reflects on his own use of Twitter and the complexities involved.

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movielover
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In reply to Cal88 • 6:34p, 11/2/23
Wikipedia: "The Egypt Gaza barrier is a steel border barrier constructed by Egypt along its 14 kilometres (7.5 miles) border with the Gaza Strip. ..."

"In December 2009, with help from the United States, Egypt started building a steel wall along the Gaza border...."

"In February 2020, Egypt began building a new 3 kilometre (2 mile) concrete wall along its border with the Gaza Strip, from Gaza's southeastern tip at Kerem Shalom (Karam Abu Salem) to the Rafah border crossing.[3] The new wall is in addition to the old wall,..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Gaza_barrier

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sycasey
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 6:50p, 11/2/23
Unit2Sucks said:
More atrocities, but without any traces of anti-semitism to drive outrage.


Come on, I think you know what the difference is. How much money is the US paying to support Pakistan's actions?
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to wifeisafurd • 6:50p, 11/2/23
wifeisafurd said:


If Hamas is going to in essence use human shields, and Israel has made the decision to say we don't care, it is unrealistic to think where there is is a ground attack under way in such a densely populated area that the civilian toll is going to be anywhere even close to what is going on in Ukraine - it has to be higher.

That doesn't detract from the fact that no one seems to be talking about the children of Ukraine and the fact they are intended targets, rather than what Americans would justify as collateral damage when we are the attackers in the case of Israel.

One of the biggest distinctions you will find between views on Ukraine and Israel is that you have a group of people demanding that Ukraine surrender and that Israel end hostilities for incongruent and cognitively dissonant reasons.

I get why people would claim that Russia and Hamas should stand down - both unprovoked aggressors attempting to annihilate their weaker neighbors. I concede that Palestinians have a far more legitimate victimhood narrative than Russia, although I don't think that justifies Hamas' terrorism.

I get why people believe that Israel and Russia should stand down - bigger countries are bullies, disproportionate civilian impact etc..

I'm not aware of anyone claiming Ukraine and Hamas should stand down, but I could understand the point of view (realism, etc.) Where are these stalwart "realists?" They know that Hamas' chances of victory are lower than Ukraine. They see there is no short-term scenario where Hamas achieves its aims (annihilation of all Jews in Israel).

I can't think of any sensible argument that Israel and Ukraine should stand down and yet the pro-Putin crowd (filled with fake "realists") has adopted that stance whole hog. Everyone is aware that Hamas intends for Palestinian civilians to be victims of Israel's defense - that's why Hamas chooses not to wear uniforms and hides amongst civilians and children. If Hamas wanted to fight this war and minimize harm to their fellow Palestinians, they wouldn't engage the way they have and will continue to. Yet the "realists" demand a ceasefire from Israel, while brooking no criticism from Hamas, and simultaneously demand Ukraine (who is waging a conventional war) surrender because they say Russia will eventually win. This despite the fact that Russia has made negative progress (losing territory) over the last 18 months. They defend Russia's murder of civilians by claiming that the civilian casualties are lower than in other wars (using made up numbers) while pretending that Israel could possibly wage a war where it only attacks civlian-clothed Hamas members who are cloaking themselves in residential areas (using made up numbers to multiply the likely true death totals).

I don't chalk this all up to anti-semitism, I think it's mostly rabid tribalism, Putinism and naivete sprinkled together.
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to sycasey • 7:06p, 11/2/23
sycasey said:
Unit2Sucks said:
More atrocities, but without any traces of anti-semitism to drive outrage.


Come on, I think you know what the difference is. How much money is the US paying to support Pakistan's actions?
Do you seriously think that is a causal distinction?

We don't give any aid to Russia so why do many of these people care about Ukraine?

They demand that we abandon Israel (knowing that it would likely be annihilated by its neighbors resulting in a true genocide) as a consequence, but I don't understand why any compassionate person would use American aid as a starting point. I have Palestinian friends. I have compassion for the millions of innocent Palestinians suffering under Hamas' corrupt rule and paying the consequences for the terrorism sponsored by Iran and Russia and I would feel exactly the same way regardless of the US' role as an ally with anyone.

The US sends hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to Palestinian refugees every year, very little of which has its intended effect. As we now know, Hamas siphons it off to fuel their terrorism while leaving their people to suffer. They then claim it's the UN's job to help. Why haven't there been calls to defund Hamas? You think Americans are supporting Hamas' efforts solely because the US gives Israel military aid?

I think that's a naive view.





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movielover
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 7:53p, 11/2/23
Unit2Sucks <<<
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sycasey
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 8:51p, 11/2/23
Unit2Sucks said:
sycasey said:
Unit2Sucks said:
More atrocities, but without any traces of anti-semitism to drive outrage.


Come on, I think you know what the difference is. How much money is the US paying to support Pakistan's actions?
Do you seriously think that is a causal distinction?

Yes, I do. It's the reason I care more about what Israel does, for example.

The US humanitarian aid to Gaza is dwarfed by the MILITARY aid to Israel. Now, personally the problems I have with that are less about the current Gaza assault (though this looks worse the longer it goes on) and more Israel's behavior in the West Bank in recent years. But in a general sense I get why Americans and other Western protestors would have more reason to raise hell about our military spending there.

Frankly, I think for you to chalk it all up to antisemitism is what's naive. This is the right-wing Israeli government's cover for whatever bad stuff they do. Don't like it? Antisemitism!

EDIT: And yes, Hamas is awful. I don't support their actions or think they should remain in power. But I have severe doubts that Israel's current campaign is actually doing anything to remove them, or that they have a real plan for what to do if and when the Gaza government is toppled.
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wifeisafurd
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12:10a, 11/3/23
it is really interesting to see two of the board's best and knowledgeable debaters, Unit 2 and Casey, who usually are aligned, go at it. Like watching two heavyweight fighters go toe to toe. Notice really no use of twitter reposts, photos or other lazy ploys - just insightful arguments.
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AunBear89
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In reply to 10% For The Big Guy • 7:19a, 11/3/23
10% For The Big Guy said:

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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In reply to movielover • 7:23a, 11/3/23
movielover said:
Unit2Sucks <<<
Once again, movielover displays the intellectual vacuum between his ears.
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sycasey
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In reply to wifeisafurd • 8:14a, 11/3/23
wifeisafurd said:
it is really interesting to see two of the board's best and knowledgeable debaters, Unit 2 and Casey, who usually are aligned, go at it. Like watching two heavyweight fighters go toe to toe. Notice really no use of twitter reposts, photos or other lazy ploys - just insightful arguments.
If we want Twitter reposts, these two get at how I'm thinking here (including the linked article):





If it were just happening in a vacuum, Israel could claim moral superiority for its military campaign in Gaza, in response to a terrorist attack by that state's government. But it's not in a vacuum, it's in the context of their slow-rolling apartheid in the West Bank and most of these lefty protesters know about that and have been complaining about it for years. IMO Netanyahu has been a disaster for Israel, and the US needs to step back and reduce support until he is out and a more reasonable government takes over.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to sycasey • 8:26a, 11/3/23
But counterpoint - Israel gained the West Bank by winning a war. It tried to trade the West Bank for peace in the Oslo Accords but the Palestinians said no. Why shouldn't Israel be able to build on its land?
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sycasey
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 8:35a, 11/3/23
tequila4kapp said:
But counterpoint - Israel gained the West Bank by winning a war. It tried to trade the West Bank for peace in the Oslo Accords but the Palestinians said no. Why shouldn't Israel be able to build on its land?
They didn't say no to everything. Some elements of that agreement are supposed to remain with provisions for Palestinian land, land that Israeli settlers have been encroaching on (with overt or tacit approval from the Netanyahu government).

And look, I get it: the Palestinian leadership has also been very hard-headed over the years. Arafat could have had 90% of what he wanted but failed to close the deal. That still doesn't mean Israel can just be the big bully and do whatever it wants while going back on prior agreements.
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to sycasey • 9:03a, 11/3/23
sycasey said:
Unit2Sucks said:
sycasey said:
Unit2Sucks said:
More atrocities, but without any traces of anti-semitism to drive outrage.


Come on, I think you know what the difference is. How much money is the US paying to support Pakistan's actions?
Do you seriously think that is a causal distinction?

Frankly, I think for you to chalk it all up to antisemitism is what's naive. This is the right-wing Israeli government's cover for whatever bad stuff they do. Don't like it? Antisemitism!
Unit2Sucks said:

I don't chalk this all up to anti-semitism, I think it's mostly rabid tribalism, Putinism and naivete sprinkled together.
I think you misread what I wrote.

sycasey said:

Yes, I do. It's the reason I care more about what Israel does, for example.

The US humanitarian aid to Gaza is dwarfed by the MILITARY aid to Israel. Now, personally the problems I have with that are less about the current Gaza assault (though this looks worse the longer it goes on) and more Israel's behavior in the West Bank in recent years. But in a general sense I get why Americans and other Western protestors would have more reason to raise hell about our military spending there.

Your position may be based on US aid, but I doubt that's a factor in London, Paris and Madrid. I doubt that US aid is the reason a flight was attacked in Dagestan or that we've seen all of these "from the river to the sea" calls worldwide while other atrocities in the Muslim world are completely ignored.

I've never said Israel is above criticism. Netanyahu sucks and the influence of the religious right in Israel is just as malign an influence there as it is here. I don't think any of that is the reason that there are people in the middle east who want to annihilate Israel however, since that tension existed long before Netanyahu and the settlements. They certainly exacerbated it and shook the hornet's nest, no debate there, but it's not the predicate for Hamas' terrorism. If anything, the US's decision to kill the JCPOA emboldened Iran who, in concert with Russia, gave Hamas all the support it needed to carry out this disgusting attack on civilians.

Now that we are where we are, I haven't heard a good answer as to what Israel can do to defend itself. Hamas hides among civilians and continues to attack. People aren't really calling for a cease-fire, they are calling for Israel to cease defending itself.
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sycasey
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 9:08a, 11/3/23
Unit2Sucks said:
Your position may be based on US aid, but I doubt that's a factor in London, Paris and Madrid.
Actually I think it probably is. Or at least, broad Western support for Israel is a factor there too.

I don't doubt that antisemitism exists too (much more virulently in non-Western nations). I just dislike the kind of simplistic argument that says: "Well, you didn't complain about these OTHER Muslims being oppressed! You must ONLY care about Israel because you're antisemitic." Such arguments allow Netanyahu's government to sidestep criticism of the bad stuff they do.

Hamas' brand of terrorism would exist anyway, but there's a decent argument that they were able to gain power at least in part because of Netanyahu's government supporting them as a way of delegitimizing the PLO. None of this s*** happens in a vacuum.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to sycasey • 9:11a, 11/3/23
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
But counterpoint - Israel gained the West Bank by winning a war. It tried to trade the West Bank for peace in the Oslo Accords but the Palestinians said no. Why shouldn't Israel be able to build on its land?
They didn't say no to everything. Some elements of that agreement are supposed to remain with provisions for Palestinian land, land that Israeli settlers have been encroaching on (with overt or tacit approval from the Netanyahu government).

And look, I get it: the Palestinian leadership has also been very hard-headed over the years. Arafat could have had 90% of what he wanted but failed to close the deal. That still doesn't mean Israel can just be the big bully and do whatever it wants while going back on prior agreements.
Thanks. I went back and re-read. Oslo 1 and 2 were signed. Arafat said no to the 2000 Camp David Summit, intended to finalize the Oslo process. The Oslo interim period expired, but elements of the agreement remain. It isn't clear if they remain as an element of an in effect Oslo agreement or legacy remnants to an expired agreement. I guess it's like so many other things in this one…muddled and confusing.
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to sycasey • 10:14a, 11/3/23
sycasey said:
Unit2Sucks said:
Your position may be based on US aid, but I doubt that's a factor in London, Paris and Madrid.
Actually I think it probably is. Or at least, broad Western support for Israel is a factor there too.

I don't doubt that antisemitism exists too (much more virulently in non-Western nations). I just dislike the kind of simplistic argument that says: "Well, you didn't complain about these OTHER Muslims being oppressed! You must ONLY care about Israel because you're antisemitic." Such arguments allow Netanyahu's government to sidestep criticism of the bad stuff they do.

Hamas' brand of terrorism would exist anyway, but there's a decent argument that they were able to gain power at least in part because of Netanyahu's government supporting them as a way of delegitimizing the PLO. None of this s*** happens in a vacuum.
I've not made the argument that opposition to Israel is entirely anti-semitism. I've said the opposite numerous times.

I have yet to hear a good reason why people in the west generally ignore all ethnic cleansing or persecution by muslims of muslims. Or why Jordan and Egypt (along with other nations in the Middle East) get a pass for their treatment of Palestinians but 100% of the blame for the plight of the Palestinian people has always been put on Israel.

The answer is not because of right wing Israelis and it's not because of anti-semitism in the West. The plight of the Palestinians has from the beginning been an intentional ploy by Middle Eastern nations to drive Israel from the region and what we are seeing now is evidence of how successful they have been in pinning everything on Israel (while intentionally creating a permanent refugee class in Palestinians when none need exist).

If you think I'm wrong, tell me: why is it that no country in the Middle East is willing to take care of any Palestinian people? My Palestinian friends were given refuge in Canada and became citizens there while their parents and other relatives are still stateless refugees without any rights in Syria and other Middle Eastern countries.
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10% For The Big Guy
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1:38p, 11/3/23
Anti-semitism has become such a problem that now we even have to call out Jewish people for being anti-semitic

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