"If the Palestinians want statehood then why are they run by the terrorist group Hamas?"

- Donald J. Trump, 2011

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) October 11, 2023

wifeisafurd said:

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dimitrig said:

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cbbass1 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Biden also said "if such an attack happened in the United States "our response would be swift, decisive and overwhelming." In the last several days, many leaders have condemned the Hamas attack. However, Biden remains the only one (to my knowledge) not to include a plea to Israel to show restraint to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties. Maybe this was done privately by Biden or others, but that Biden has made several public speeches and failed to publicly suggest such restrain is rather telling. Hope I'm working, but I'm expecting Gaza to take a pounding.

---

Biden's Zionist handlers would never allow him to show any compassion for Palestinians.

Here's some Grade A gaslighting by the State Department today when pressed on Israeli war crimes and human rights violations.

MUST SEE: Journalists @SMArikat, @MaxBlumenthal, and @samhusseini grill State Department over Israeli “war crimes” and “genocidal rhetoric”

“Will you urge Israel not to starve and slaughter people, please??” pic.twitter.com/kcRrZCITe9

— Decensored News (@decensorednews) October 11, 2023

I'm also laughing at all the BI Zionists who have not one thing to say in response to all the evidence I've presented that Israel has actively supported and encouraged Hamas as a counter to other secular Palestinian organizations to sow dissension and lessen the chances of a Palestinian state. Deep down, you know that Israel is an apartheid state, but you don't care and you know you've got nothing to counter those facts.

Also, got some footage of some of the terrorists Isreal has killed.

Palestinian father in Gaza gives his baby a final hug after she was killed in an lsraeli airstrike. pic.twitter.com/qI19Xz5Upw

— In Context (@incontextmedia) October 9, 2023

People here told me there are still children under the rubble. They are using a generator to run the metal saw to cut throw the rubble. #Gaza pic.twitter.com/d95qXXPjSE

— Muhammad Smiry 🇵🇸 (@MuhammadSmiry) October 11, 2023

WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGES

While the Israeli army and western media were lying that Hamas beheaded 40 Israeli babies, Israeli bombing killed this Palestinian child, exploded its head, and severed its limbs.

Filmed by journalist @azaizamotaz9. pic.twitter.com/e5mmcHEjXB

— Dan Cohen (@dancohen3000) October 10, 2023

wifeisafurd said:

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concordtom said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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socaltownie said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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bearister said:

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This morning I suggested to my wife that the Israeli security lapse seems hard to believe and what if Netanyahu wanted this to happen like some claim FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming.

Then this:

"In one of the said warnings, Egypt's Intelligence Minister General Abbas Kamel personally called Netanyahu only 10 days before the massive attack that Gazans were likely to do "something unusual, a terrible operation," according to the Ynet news site.

"Unnamed Egyptian officials told the site they were shocked by Netanyahu's indifference to the news and said the premier told the minister the military was "submerged" in troubles in the West Bank."

Netanyahu's tRumpian response: "This is completely fake news."

Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of 'something big' | The Times of Israel


https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

*I don't know whether Egypt's claim of a warning is true or not, but if it's true, Bibi's enemies within will get a spotlight on it.

---

Bib's enemies are now supporting a unified "war cabinet" which includes a member from all parties. So one thing Hamas succeeded in is turning a peace movement in a divided Israel into a unified war movement led by Bibi.

---

WHich is probably a good thing. Some of the reports (I don't follow internal Israel politics much at all) suggest that a problem for Bibi was that because his ruling coalition has a number of small West Bank Settler parties he has been much more focused on weakening the PA and enabling settlers which took attention off hamas and gaza. If the unity party diminshes the wacky fring of the settler movement that is a damm good thing because they are nearly as bad as Hamas and would be if they were politically powerless.

---

The war cabinet probably folds once the Gaza Strip is obliterated, which likely is sooner than later.

---

Death toll prediction?

---

Israel is dropping about 1,000 tons of bombs per day in a small, densely populated area.

Water system - gone
Electrical system - gone
Transportation system mostly gone
Banking system - gone
Food storage - gone (but can be replaced)
Fuel storage - mostly gone
Government buildings - mostly gone
Housing: 25% gone. Any area used by Hamas will be bombed and then bull dozed. (The UN has said 125,000 in Gaza have been displaced already by air strikes (hard to say if this number is accurate)

Israel in the past has provided knock on roof warnings before bombing buildings -they will not do so this time due to the indiscrimiant nature of the Hamas attack and use of prisoners. I suspect the death and injuries will be far more substantial this time accordingly. There never is an accurate number (at least in the prior wars against Saddam), and I assume that will be true here. Given the high density in population, assume the worst.

---

And so while everyone screams about the injustices done to Jews, when does the script get flipped where They are the ones committing the injustices?

That's the thing that always gets me about this situation in Israel.

I had a friend who had a friend 25 years ago who sent us email updates about West Bank bulldozings and endless checkpoints and road and fence construction that cut up Palestinians so they could no longer visit family and friends in neighboring towns, let alone commute to work, or live in their now bulldozed homes.

No wonder the Gaza Strip cage dwellers freaked out and did something horrible and irrational in protest. It's just madness how Israel expects them to be okay with living this way.

Biden (and every other US leader) says we stand by Israel - I do not, not without accountability and fairness to all people. It's not enough to say, "but the Holocaust! We must do this to you before you do it to us, again."

What an ugly ugly mess.
I agree with you - expect the worst!

concordtom said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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concordtom said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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socaltownie said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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bearister said:

---

This morning I suggested to my wife that the Israeli security lapse seems hard to believe and what if Netanyahu wanted this to happen like some claim FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming.

Then this:

"In one of the said warnings, Egypt's Intelligence Minister General Abbas Kamel personally called Netanyahu only 10 days before the massive attack that Gazans were likely to do "something unusual, a terrible operation," according to the Ynet news site.

"Unnamed Egyptian officials told the site they were shocked by Netanyahu's indifference to the news and said the premier told the minister the military was "submerged" in troubles in the West Bank."

Netanyahu's tRumpian response: "This is completely fake news."

Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of 'something big' | The Times of Israel


https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

*I don't know whether Egypt's claim of a warning is true or not, but if it's true, Bibi's enemies within will get a spotlight on it.

---

Bib's enemies are now supporting a unified "war cabinet" which includes a member from all parties. So one thing Hamas succeeded in is turning a peace movement in a divided Israel into a unified war movement led by Bibi.

---

WHich is probably a good thing. Some of the reports (I don't follow internal Israel politics much at all) suggest that a problem for Bibi was that because his ruling coalition has a number of small West Bank Settler parties he has been much more focused on weakening the PA and enabling settlers which took attention off hamas and gaza. If the unity party diminshes the wacky fring of the settler movement that is a damm good thing because they are nearly as bad as Hamas and would be if they were politically powerless.

---

The war cabinet probably folds once the Gaza Strip is obliterated, which likely is sooner than later.

---

Death toll prediction?

---

Israel is dropping about 1,000 tons of bombs per day in a small, densely populated area.

Water system - gone
Electrical system - gone
Transportation system mostly gone
Banking system - gone
Food storage - gone (but can be replaced)
Fuel storage - mostly gone
Government buildings - mostly gone
Housing: 25% gone. Any area used by Hamas will be bombed and then bull dozed. (The UN has said 125,000 in Gaza have been displaced already by air strikes (hard to say if this number is accurate)

Israel in the past has provided knock on roof warnings before bombing buildings -they will not do so this time due to the indiscrimiant nature of the Hamas attack and use of prisoners. I suspect the death and injuries will be far more substantial this time accordingly. There never is an accurate number (at least in the prior wars against Saddam), and I assume that will be true here. Given the high density in population, assume the worst.

---

And so while everyone screams about the injustices done to Jews, when does the script get flipped where They are the ones committing the injustices?

That's the thing that always gets me about this situation in Israel.

I had a friend who had a friend 25 years ago who sent us email updates about West Bank bulldozings and endless checkpoints and road and fence construction that cut up Palestinians so they could no longer visit family and friends in neighboring towns, let alone commute to work, or live in their now bulldozed homes.

No wonder the Gaza Strip cage dwellers freaked out and did something horrible and irrational in protest. It's just madness how Israel expects them to be okay with living this way.

Biden (and every other US leader) says we stand by Israel - I do not, not without accountability and fairness to all people. It's not enough to say, "but the Holocaust! We must do this to you before you do it to us, again."

What an ugly ugly mess.
I agree with you - expect the worst!

---

These recountings of Israeli offenses are themselves offensive. As if Israel just out of the blue decided to make travel difficult and dehumanizing for Palestinians. Please. They enact measures in reaction to actual violence or threats of violence. And of course Palestinians commits those acts of violence because of how Israel's security measures oppress them (and because Jews having the temerity to be among the living). This is the essence of the problem - it's a never ending cycle of each side doing something because the other side did something first. Not unlike the inane arguments over who was there first, it gets us nowhere and only perpetuates the myth that one side is pure.

concordtom said:

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It's offensive to be offended by the living situation Palestinians are forced to experience?
Or to mention it?

---

To imply that Israeli's are just wantonly evil and oppressive by ignoring the conditions that lead to them implementing those security measures.

I don't know if this is true but a lot of people have been saying……

Donald Trump's Israel Intel Leak Under Scrutiny After Hamas Attack


https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-israel-intel-russia-hamas-attack-1833094

White House Claims $6 Billion To Iran Absolutely Not Related To The Exactly $6 Billion Worth Of Rockets Being Fired Into Israel*

Oct 10, 2023 BabylonBee.com

WASHINGTON, D.C. Forced into playing defense following the deadly attacks perpetrated by Hamas, the White House aggressively denied the $6 billion it sent to Iran had anything at all to do with the $6 billion worth of rockets launched into Israel.

"Two completely unrelated amounts of money," said Press Secretary Karine Jean Pierre. "While it may be tempting to believe these wild, unsubstantiated conspiracies that we are somehow financing these attacks, the fact is it is entirely coincidental that Hamas fired exactly $6 billion in rockets at Israel immediately after we sent $6 billion to the Iranian government. Those are just two random numbers that just happen to be exactly the same."

Following the Biden administration's controversial decision to send Iran $6 billion as part of a prisoner swap, terrorist organization Hamas launched a large-scale, multi-pronged attack on both Israeli military locations and the civilian population. With the attacks later revealed to have been approved and assisted by Iran, fair-minded people around the world speculated the two situations may, in fact, be related. "Coincidence? No way," said skeptical American Dr. Nate Thomas. "They need to just admit that they screwed up and paid for a horrifically deadly terrorist attack. Denying it just makes them look silly. But that's a trademark characteristic of the Biden presidency, I guess."

At publishing time, sources within the White House were also forced to deny the receipt of a thoughtful "Thank You" card from Hamas for the generous gift had anything at all to do with taxpayer money being used to purchase weapons used to murder women and children.

*For those who are mentally challenged, the Babylon Bee's articles are satire.

Yes, Israel withdrew from Gaza hoping the PA could manage the situation. Once Hamas took over a short time later, there was no choice but to enforce a blockade. If not, Iran would use Gaza as a base to attack. It sucks for the people living in Gaza who want nothing to do with Hamas but there's simply no way to appease a fanatical Islamist group. Their worldview will never change. Israel was increasing the number of workers allowed in from Gaza recently but Hamas obviously didn't care about economic incentives.

BearGoggles said:

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dimitrig said:

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BearGoggles said:

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socaltownie said:

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Zippergate said:

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Don't cite statistics if you're not prepared to defend them. I stated that the area was inhabited by a small number of bedouins and that Arabs moved in after Jewish improvements to the land. That's completely supported by a more than doubling of the population in less than forty years. And a population of 300k 140 years ago doesn't explain the millions of people who claim to be dispossessed Palestinians. Btw, were these Palestinians the same group that built the Dome of the Rock on top of the 3,000 year-old Jewish temple?

---

Sure and before that there were apparently tribes that another Bronze age tribe that became what we think of as Jews conquered.

Who CARES??!!! It doesn't matter. Just like it doesn't matter that my ancestors were kicked out of England, went to scotland and subsequently kicked out a bunch of Gallic people who they then went over the Irish sea and kicked out of Ulster before Cromwell sent over Protestants and kicked THEM out.

Deal with the reality. Probably around 15 million people. HIGHLY diverse religious beliefs and practices. At least 2 major languages with several dialetics. Income inequality that correlates highly with relgious practices. The only way to solve that is create a secular state with strong individual rights.....or ethnically purge folks.

(BTW - if I was a reform member I would ultimately be worried about the long term trends cause there are a lot of conservative communtiies that don't consider reform "real jews". Once you start down that pathway it never ends good.)

---

I agree with your "who cares" approach. The problem is that many Palestinians and the people supporting them latch on to the "we were here first" argument, as evidenced by some posting in this thread. You're largely arguing with the wrong side on this one.

I question the bolded statement. That might be the "best" way to solve the problem from your perspective - it is a highly subjective conclusion. But it is not the only way. Pakistan says hello as do all of the former republics of the Soviet Union.

The harder question is what measures does a country need/choose to take to maintain its religious or other ethnic qualities. Obviously, immigration policy seems pretty important though birthrates might eventually dictate changes.

---

"The harder question is what measures does a country need/choose to take to maintain its religious or other ethnic qualities. Obviously, immigration policy seems pretty important though birthrates might eventually dictate changes."

A country should not maintain its religious or other ethnic qualities. Countries don't have a religion or ethnicity. People do. A country that chooses to use religion or ethnicity as part of its identity will ultimately end up persecuting some of its population. Even homogenous countries like Japan have been guilty of this.

Jews and Arabs need to learn to share the land that we today call Israel. It is in both of their best interests to do so. Hamas should not have attacked Israel, but Israel's response is not compassionate at all and it plays into the narrative that Israel is the enemy. There are 1 million children in Gaza today that don't understand politics and didn't elect their leaders, but will grow up hating Jews. That's counterproductive.

---

You seem to be posting as to what you want as opposed to what is. Factually, quite a few countries do have official religions or give a particular religion special status,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion

https://www.worlddata.info/religions/state-religions.php

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/what-countries-have-a-national-religion

I think those lists show lots of countries where there is an official religion but tolerance for minorities.

In terms of your final paragraph, I agree with some of what you said. The reality is that Israel's response will contribute to the cycle of violence. Israel has tried "small wars" with Hamas and look what happened. No country can, would or should tolerate terrorists attacking it from adjacent countries. The first obligation of every government is to protect its citizens.

Your imposing expectations on Israel that are not the norm. Look at what the US did after 9/11 and with ISIS. ISIS attacks on US citizens were relatively minor as compared to what happened in Israel this week. Yet the US took action, as it should have. We didn't worry about ISIS children hating us. There could be long term consequences from that, but it doesn't matter.

At this point, the suffering in Gaza is unavoidable. The best thing that can happen is that Hamas is removed quickly and permanently. Israel priority at this time is not to be compassionate - it needs to be effective. Compassion, assistance, and hopefully reconciliation will come later, but only if Hamas is removed and replaced with a government that accepts Israel and actually serves the interest/needs of the Palestinian people.

---

I'm gonna say there's a difference between having a "state religion" and having the hallmarks of an ethnostate. The UK has the Church of England, but if you're not in that church it doesn't really affect anything you can do. That is not the case in Israel. If you're not Jewish there are limitations.

Slava Palestini said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Biden also said "if such an attack happened in the United States "our response would be swift, decisive and overwhelming." In the last several days, many leaders have condemned the Hamas attack. However, Biden remains the only one (to my knowledge) not to include a plea to Israel to show restraint to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties. Maybe this was done privately by Biden or others, but that Biden has made several public speeches and failed to publicly suggest such restrain is rather telling. Hope I'm working, but I'm expecting Gaza to take a pounding.

---

Biden's Zionist handlers would never allow him to show any compassion for Palestinians.

Here's some Grade A gaslighting by the State Department today when pressed on Israeli war crimes and human rights violations.

MUST SEE: Journalists @SMArikat, @MaxBlumenthal, and @samhusseini grill State Department over Israeli “war crimes” and “genocidal rhetoric”

“Will you urge Israel not to starve and slaughter people, please??” pic.twitter.com/kcRrZCITe9

— Decensored News (@decensorednews) October 11, 2023

I'm also laughing at all the BI Zionists who have not one thing to say in response to all the evidence I've presented that Israel has actively supported and encouraged Hamas as a counter to other secular Palestinian organizations to sow dissension and lessen the chances of a Palestinian state. Deep down, you know that Israel is an apartheid state, but you don't care and you know you've got nothing to counter those facts.

Also, got some footage of some of the terrorists Isreal has killed.

Palestinian father in Gaza gives his baby a final hug after she was killed in an lsraeli airstrike. pic.twitter.com/qI19Xz5Upw

— In Context (@incontextmedia) October 9, 2023

People here told me there are still children under the rubble. They are using a generator to run the metal saw to cut throw the rubble. #Gaza pic.twitter.com/d95qXXPjSE

— Muhammad Smiry 🇵🇸 (@MuhammadSmiry) October 11, 2023

WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGES

While the Israeli army and western media were lying that Hamas beheaded 40 Israeli babies, Israeli bombing killed this Palestinian child, exploded its head, and severed its limbs.

Filmed by journalist @azaizamotaz9. pic.twitter.com/e5mmcHEjXB

— Dan Cohen (@dancohen3000) October 10, 2023

---

Someone posts "Biden's Zionist handlers" on this board - a clear antisemitic trope - and it gets 3 likes on this board?

concordtom said:

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CaliforniaEternal said:

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Absolutely, no sovereign country would behave any differently if attacked by a group that's sworn to its destruction.

---

I was referring to the living conditions of Palestinians since, well, my entire life and probably everyone else on here. Not today. But probably shelling 2M Gaza residents isn't a good idea either.

---

Why are they being shelled? Did something happen this past weekend?

I clearly support the existence and mission of Israel - I don't hide it. But I don't pretend Israel is perfect or blameless. There is a cycle of violence. The Palestinians have contributed to their own plight, as have the Israelis.

BearGoggles said:

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Slava Palestini said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

Biden also said "if such an attack happened in the United States "our response would be swift, decisive and overwhelming." In the last several days, many leaders have condemned the Hamas attack. However, Biden remains the only one (to my knowledge) not to include a plea to Israel to show restraint to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties. Maybe this was done privately by Biden or others, but that Biden has made several public speeches and failed to publicly suggest such restrain is rather telling. Hope I'm working, but I'm expecting Gaza to take a pounding.

---

Biden's Zionist handlers would never allow him to show any compassion for Palestinians.

Here's some Grade A gaslighting by the State Department today when pressed on Israeli war crimes and human rights violations.

MUST SEE: Journalists @SMArikat, @MaxBlumenthal, and @samhusseini grill State Department over Israeli “war crimes” and “genocidal rhetoric”

“Will you urge Israel not to starve and slaughter people, please??” pic.twitter.com/kcRrZCITe9

— Decensored News (@decensorednews) October 11, 2023

I'm also laughing at all the BI Zionists who have not one thing to say in response to all the evidence I've presented that Israel has actively supported and encouraged Hamas as a counter to other secular Palestinian organizations to sow dissension and lessen the chances of a Palestinian state. Deep down, you know that Israel is an apartheid state, but you don't care and you know you've got nothing to counter those facts.

Also, got some footage of some of the terrorists Isreal has killed.

Palestinian father in Gaza gives his baby a final hug after she was killed in an lsraeli airstrike. pic.twitter.com/qI19Xz5Upw

— In Context (@incontextmedia) October 9, 2023

People here told me there are still children under the rubble. They are using a generator to run the metal saw to cut throw the rubble. #Gaza pic.twitter.com/d95qXXPjSE

— Muhammad Smiry 🇵🇸 (@MuhammadSmiry) October 11, 2023

WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGES

While the Israeli army and western media were lying that Hamas beheaded 40 Israeli babies, Israeli bombing killed this Palestinian child, exploded its head, and severed its limbs.

Filmed by journalist @azaizamotaz9. pic.twitter.com/e5mmcHEjXB

— Dan Cohen (@dancohen3000) October 10, 2023

---

Someone posts "Biden's Zionist handlers" on this board - a clear antisemitic trope - and it gets 3 likes on this board?

---

You have held this opinion before, but being anti-Zionist or anti-Israel is not necessarily antisemetic.

BearGoggles said:

---

Slava Palestini said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

Biden also said "if such an attack happened in the United States "our response would be swift, decisive and overwhelming." In the last several days, many leaders have condemned the Hamas attack. However, Biden remains the only one (to my knowledge) not to include a plea to Israel to show restraint to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties. Maybe this was done privately by Biden or others, but that Biden has made several public speeches and failed to publicly suggest such restrain is rather telling. Hope I'm working, but I'm expecting Gaza to take a pounding.

---

Biden's Zionist handlers would never allow him to show any compassion for Palestinians.

Here's some Grade A gaslighting by the State Department today when pressed on Israeli war crimes and human rights violations.

MUST SEE: Journalists @SMArikat, @MaxBlumenthal, and @samhusseini grill State Department over Israeli “war crimes” and “genocidal rhetoric”

“Will you urge Israel not to starve and slaughter people, please??” pic.twitter.com/kcRrZCITe9

— Decensored News (@decensorednews) October 11, 2023

I'm also laughing at all the BI Zionists who have not one thing to say in response to all the evidence I've presented that Israel has actively supported and encouraged Hamas as a counter to other secular Palestinian organizations to sow dissension and lessen the chances of a Palestinian state. Deep down, you know that Israel is an apartheid state, but you don't care and you know you've got nothing to counter those facts.

Also, got some footage of some of the terrorists Isreal has killed.

Palestinian father in Gaza gives his baby a final hug after she was killed in an lsraeli airstrike. pic.twitter.com/qI19Xz5Upw

— In Context (@incontextmedia) October 9, 2023

People here told me there are still children under the rubble. They are using a generator to run the metal saw to cut throw the rubble. #Gaza pic.twitter.com/d95qXXPjSE

— Muhammad Smiry 🇵🇸 (@MuhammadSmiry) October 11, 2023

WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGES

While the Israeli army and western media were lying that Hamas beheaded 40 Israeli babies, Israeli bombing killed this Palestinian child, exploded its head, and severed its limbs.

Filmed by journalist @azaizamotaz9. pic.twitter.com/e5mmcHEjXB

— Dan Cohen (@dancohen3000) October 10, 2023

---

Someone posts "Biden's Zionist handlers" on this board - a clear antisemitic trope - and it gets 3 likes on this board?

---

It's a Yogi post, so those "likes" are almost certainly from his other accounts.

sycasey said:

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BearGoggles said:

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dimitrig said:

---

BearGoggles said:

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socaltownie said:

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Zippergate said:

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Don't cite statistics if you're not prepared to defend them. I stated that the area was inhabited by a small number of bedouins and that Arabs moved in after Jewish improvements to the land. That's completely supported by a more than doubling of the population in less than forty years. And a population of 300k 140 years ago doesn't explain the millions of people who claim to be dispossessed Palestinians. Btw, were these Palestinians the same group that built the Dome of the Rock on top of the 3,000 year-old Jewish temple?

---

Sure and before that there were apparently tribes that another Bronze age tribe that became what we think of as Jews conquered.

Who CARES??!!! It doesn't matter. Just like it doesn't matter that my ancestors were kicked out of England, went to scotland and subsequently kicked out a bunch of Gallic people who they then went over the Irish sea and kicked out of Ulster before Cromwell sent over Protestants and kicked THEM out.

Deal with the reality. Probably around 15 million people. HIGHLY diverse religious beliefs and practices. At least 2 major languages with several dialetics. Income inequality that correlates highly with relgious practices. The only way to solve that is create a secular state with strong individual rights.....or ethnically purge folks.

(BTW - if I was a reform member I would ultimately be worried about the long term trends cause there are a lot of conservative communtiies that don't consider reform "real jews". Once you start down that pathway it never ends good.)

---

I agree with your "who cares" approach. The problem is that many Palestinians and the people supporting them latch on to the "we were here first" argument, as evidenced by some posting in this thread. You're largely arguing with the wrong side on this one.

I question the bolded statement. That might be the "best" way to solve the problem from your perspective - it is a highly subjective conclusion. But it is not the only way. Pakistan says hello as do all of the former republics of the Soviet Union.

The harder question is what measures does a country need/choose to take to maintain its religious or other ethnic qualities. Obviously, immigration policy seems pretty important though birthrates might eventually dictate changes.

---

"The harder question is what measures does a country need/choose to take to maintain its religious or other ethnic qualities. Obviously, immigration policy seems pretty important though birthrates might eventually dictate changes."

A country should not maintain its religious or other ethnic qualities. Countries don't have a religion or ethnicity. People do. A country that chooses to use religion or ethnicity as part of its identity will ultimately end up persecuting some of its population. Even homogenous countries like Japan have been guilty of this.

Jews and Arabs need to learn to share the land that we today call Israel. It is in both of their best interests to do so. Hamas should not have attacked Israel, but Israel's response is not compassionate at all and it plays into the narrative that Israel is the enemy. There are 1 million children in Gaza today that don't understand politics and didn't elect their leaders, but will grow up hating Jews. That's counterproductive.

---

You seem to be posting as to what you want as opposed to what is. Factually, quite a few countries do have official religions or give a particular religion special status,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion

https://www.worlddata.info/religions/state-religions.php

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/what-countries-have-a-national-religion

I think those lists show lots of countries where there is an official religion but tolerance for minorities.

In terms of your final paragraph, I agree with some of what you said. The reality is that Israel's response will contribute to the cycle of violence. Israel has tried "small wars" with Hamas and look what happened. No country can, would or should tolerate terrorists attacking it from adjacent countries. The first obligation of every government is to protect its citizens.

Your imposing expectations on Israel that are not the norm. Look at what the US did after 9/11 and with ISIS. ISIS attacks on US citizens were relatively minor as compared to what happened in Israel this week. Yet the US took action, as it should have. We didn't worry about ISIS children hating us. There could be long term consequences from that, but it doesn't matter.

At this point, the suffering in Gaza is unavoidable. The best thing that can happen is that Hamas is removed quickly and permanently. Israel priority at this time is not to be compassionate - it needs to be effective. Compassion, assistance, and hopefully reconciliation will come later, but only if Hamas is removed and replaced with a government that accepts Israel and actually serves the interest/needs of the Palestinian people.

---

I'm gonna say there's a difference between having a "state religion" and having the hallmarks of an ethnostate. The UK has the Church of England, but if you're not in that church it doesn't really affect anything you can do. That is not the case in Israel. If you're not Jewish there are limitations.

---

21 to 26% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish. What are the limitations on these citizens? Please be specific as to how they have less legal rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#:~:text=As%20of%20March%202023%2C%20Israel's,%25%20(around%202.048%20million).

Before answering, you might want to read this:

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

Like the US (where notably there is no state religion), there are systemic differences - poverty, discrimination, etc. But legally, non-Jewish citizens have the same rights and those have been protected by Israeli courts - including the Supreme Court.

Arabs vote and serve in the Parliament/Knesset and other elected offices. Arabs serve on the supreme court including a Muslim Arab. How many Jews or Christians enjoy these rights and have this type of representation in Islamic countries? How many Muslims have served on the US Supreme Court?

You may want to ask yourself why you (and many others) have these types of preconceived notions of Israel and seemingly different expectations of Israel. I don't mean that to suggest you're a bad person or have bad intentions. But the narrative surrounding - and expectations of - Israel are different and that is problematic.

dimitrig said:

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BearGoggles said:

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Slava Palestini said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Biden also said "if such an attack happened in the United States "our response would be swift, decisive and overwhelming." In the last several days, many leaders have condemned the Hamas attack. However, Biden remains the only one (to my knowledge) not to include a plea to Israel to show restraint to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties. Maybe this was done privately by Biden or others, but that Biden has made several public speeches and failed to publicly suggest such restrain is rather telling. Hope I'm working, but I'm expecting Gaza to take a pounding.

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Biden's Zionist handlers would never allow him to show any compassion for Palestinians.

Here's some Grade A gaslighting by the State Department today when pressed on Israeli war crimes and human rights violations.

MUST SEE: Journalists @SMArikat, @MaxBlumenthal, and @samhusseini grill State Department over Israeli “war crimes” and “genocidal rhetoric”

“Will you urge Israel not to starve and slaughter people, please??” pic.twitter.com/kcRrZCITe9

— Decensored News (@decensorednews) October 11, 2023

I'm also laughing at all the BI Zionists who have not one thing to say in response to all the evidence I've presented that Israel has actively supported and encouraged Hamas as a counter to other secular Palestinian organizations to sow dissension and lessen the chances of a Palestinian state. Deep down, you know that Israel is an apartheid state, but you don't care and you know you've got nothing to counter those facts.

Also, got some footage of some of the terrorists Isreal has killed.

Palestinian father in Gaza gives his baby a final hug after she was killed in an lsraeli airstrike. pic.twitter.com/qI19Xz5Upw

— In Context (@incontextmedia) October 9, 2023

People here told me there are still children under the rubble. They are using a generator to run the metal saw to cut throw the rubble. #Gaza pic.twitter.com/d95qXXPjSE

— Muhammad Smiry 🇵🇸 (@MuhammadSmiry) October 11, 2023

WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGES

While the Israeli army and western media were lying that Hamas beheaded 40 Israeli babies, Israeli bombing killed this Palestinian child, exploded its head, and severed its limbs.

Filmed by journalist @azaizamotaz9. pic.twitter.com/e5mmcHEjXB

— Dan Cohen (@dancohen3000) October 10, 2023

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Someone posts "Biden's Zionist handlers" on this board - a clear antisemitic trope - and it gets 3 likes on this board?

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You have held this opinion before, but being anti-Zionist or anti-Israel is not necessarily antisemetic.

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It is not a question of being anti-Zionist or anti-Israeli policy. That is not, in and of itself, antisemitic.

But that type of statement - suggesting Jewish/Zionist control of governments, the economy, the media - is Exhibit "1" on the list of antisemitic tropes. The fact that you deny that is bizarre and actually explains a lot.

BearGoggles said:

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dimitrig said:

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BearGoggles said:

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Slava Palestini said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Biden also said "if such an attack happened in the United States "our response would be swift, decisive and overwhelming." In the last several days, many leaders have condemned the Hamas attack. However, Biden remains the only one (to my knowledge) not to include a plea to Israel to show restraint to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties. Maybe this was done privately by Biden or others, but that Biden has made several public speeches and failed to publicly suggest such restrain is rather telling. Hope I'm working, but I'm expecting Gaza to take a pounding.

---

Biden's Zionist handlers would never allow him to show any compassion for Palestinians.

Here's some Grade A gaslighting by the State Department today when pressed on Israeli war crimes and human rights violations.

MUST SEE: Journalists @SMArikat, @MaxBlumenthal, and @samhusseini grill State Department over Israeli “war crimes” and “genocidal rhetoric”

“Will you urge Israel not to starve and slaughter people, please??” pic.twitter.com/kcRrZCITe9

— Decensored News (@decensorednews) October 11, 2023

I'm also laughing at all the BI Zionists who have not one thing to say in response to all the evidence I've presented that Israel has actively supported and encouraged Hamas as a counter to other secular Palestinian organizations to sow dissension and lessen the chances of a Palestinian state. Deep down, you know that Israel is an apartheid state, but you don't care and you know you've got nothing to counter those facts.

Also, got some footage of some of the terrorists Isreal has killed.

Palestinian father in Gaza gives his baby a final hug after she was killed in an lsraeli airstrike. pic.twitter.com/qI19Xz5Upw

— In Context (@incontextmedia) October 9, 2023

People here told me there are still children under the rubble. They are using a generator to run the metal saw to cut throw the rubble. #Gaza pic.twitter.com/d95qXXPjSE

— Muhammad Smiry 🇵🇸 (@MuhammadSmiry) October 11, 2023

WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGES

While the Israeli army and western media were lying that Hamas beheaded 40 Israeli babies, Israeli bombing killed this Palestinian child, exploded its head, and severed its limbs.

Filmed by journalist @azaizamotaz9. pic.twitter.com/e5mmcHEjXB

— Dan Cohen (@dancohen3000) October 10, 2023

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Someone posts "Biden's Zionist handlers" on this board - a clear antisemitic trope - and it gets 3 likes on this board?

---

You have held this opinion before, but being anti-Zionist or anti-Israel is not necessarily antisemetic.

---

It is not a question of being anti-Zionist or anti-Israeli policy. That is not, in and of itself, antisemitic.

But that type of statement - suggesting Jewish/Zionist control of governments, the economy, the media - is Exhibit "1" on the list of antisemitic tropes. The fact that you deny that is bizarre and actually explains a lot.

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Agreed, a phrase like "Biden's zionist handlers" is anti-semitic.

BearGoggles said:

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sycasey said:

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BearGoggles said:

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dimitrig said:

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BearGoggles said:

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socaltownie said:

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Zippergate said:

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Don't cite statistics if you're not prepared to defend them. I stated that the area was inhabited by a small number of bedouins and that Arabs moved in after Jewish improvements to the land. That's completely supported by a more than doubling of the population in less than forty years. And a population of 300k 140 years ago doesn't explain the millions of people who claim to be dispossessed Palestinians. Btw, were these Palestinians the same group that built the Dome of the Rock on top of the 3,000 year-old Jewish temple?

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Sure and before that there were apparently tribes that another Bronze age tribe that became what we think of as Jews conquered.

Who CARES??!!! It doesn't matter. Just like it doesn't matter that my ancestors were kicked out of England, went to scotland and subsequently kicked out a bunch of Gallic people who they then went over the Irish sea and kicked out of Ulster before Cromwell sent over Protestants and kicked THEM out.

Deal with the reality. Probably around 15 million people. HIGHLY diverse religious beliefs and practices. At least 2 major languages with several dialetics. Income inequality that correlates highly with relgious practices. The only way to solve that is create a secular state with strong individual rights.....or ethnically purge folks.

(BTW - if I was a reform member I would ultimately be worried about the long term trends cause there are a lot of conservative communtiies that don't consider reform "real jews". Once you start down that pathway it never ends good.)

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I agree with your "who cares" approach. The problem is that many Palestinians and the people supporting them latch on to the "we were here first" argument, as evidenced by some posting in this thread. You're largely arguing with the wrong side on this one.

I question the bolded statement. That might be the "best" way to solve the problem from your perspective - it is a highly subjective conclusion. But it is not the only way. Pakistan says hello as do all of the former republics of the Soviet Union.

The harder question is what measures does a country need/choose to take to maintain its religious or other ethnic qualities. Obviously, immigration policy seems pretty important though birthrates might eventually dictate changes.

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"The harder question is what measures does a country need/choose to take to maintain its religious or other ethnic qualities. Obviously, immigration policy seems pretty important though birthrates might eventually dictate changes."

A country should not maintain its religious or other ethnic qualities. Countries don't have a religion or ethnicity. People do. A country that chooses to use religion or ethnicity as part of its identity will ultimately end up persecuting some of its population. Even homogenous countries like Japan have been guilty of this.

Jews and Arabs need to learn to share the land that we today call Israel. It is in both of their best interests to do so. Hamas should not have attacked Israel, but Israel's response is not compassionate at all and it plays into the narrative that Israel is the enemy. There are 1 million children in Gaza today that don't understand politics and didn't elect their leaders, but will grow up hating Jews. That's counterproductive.

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You seem to be posting as to what you want as opposed to what is. Factually, quite a few countries do have official religions or give a particular religion special status,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion

https://www.worlddata.info/religions/state-religions.php

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/what-countries-have-a-national-religion

I think those lists show lots of countries where there is an official religion but tolerance for minorities.

In terms of your final paragraph, I agree with some of what you said. The reality is that Israel's response will contribute to the cycle of violence. Israel has tried "small wars" with Hamas and look what happened. No country can, would or should tolerate terrorists attacking it from adjacent countries. The first obligation of every government is to protect its citizens.

Your imposing expectations on Israel that are not the norm. Look at what the US did after 9/11 and with ISIS. ISIS attacks on US citizens were relatively minor as compared to what happened in Israel this week. Yet the US took action, as it should have. We didn't worry about ISIS children hating us. There could be long term consequences from that, but it doesn't matter.

At this point, the suffering in Gaza is unavoidable. The best thing that can happen is that Hamas is removed quickly and permanently. Israel priority at this time is not to be compassionate - it needs to be effective. Compassion, assistance, and hopefully reconciliation will come later, but only if Hamas is removed and replaced with a government that accepts Israel and actually serves the interest/needs of the Palestinian people.

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I'm gonna say there's a difference between having a "state religion" and having the hallmarks of an ethnostate. The UK has the Church of England, but if you're not in that church it doesn't really affect anything you can do. That is not the case in Israel. If you're not Jewish there are limitations.

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21 to 26% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish. What are the limitations on these citizens? Please be specific as to how they have less legal rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#:~:text=As%20of%20March%202023%2C%20Israel's,%25%20(around%202.048%20million).

Before answering, you might want to read this:

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

Like the US (where notably there is no state religion), there are systemic differences - poverty, discrimination, etc. But legally, non-Jewish citizens have the same rights and those have been protected by Israeli courts - including the Supreme Court.

Arabs vote and serve in the Parliament/Knesset and other elected offices. Arabs serve on the supreme court including a Muslim Arab. How many Jews or Christians enjoy these rights and have this type of representation in Islamic countries? How many Muslims have served on the US Supreme Court?

You may want to ask yourself why you (and many others) have these types of preconceived notions of Israel and seemingly different expectations of Israel. I don't mean that to suggest you're a bad person or have bad intentions. But the narrative surrounding - and expectations of - Israel are different and that is problematic.

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There's the Right to Return, for one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

If you're Jewish you can invite anyone from your family to come over, no problem. If you're not? Well . . .

And yes, I realize this was part of the foundation of the country. That's part of the issue; when you're founded based on religion, blood, and ethnicity, it's bound to start feeling discriminatory to the minority groups in your country.

Marriage laws:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Israel

Quote:

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In Israel, marriage can be performed only under the auspices of the religious community to which couples belong, and inter-faith marriages performed within the country are not legally recognized.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Israel#cite_note-lerner2011p214-1][1][/url] However, marriages performed abroad or remotely from Israel must be registered by the government.

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Anti-miscegenation, anyone? We used to have these laws in the US and I think we all now agree they were bad. And yeah, I realize there are ways around this, but again . . . if you're of a different ethnic group you have to do extra.

Are the other Muslim states in the region any better? No, they're not! But that's not my claim. My claim is that Israel is an ethnostate or at least kind of trying to be one, and that is problematic for them as a liberal democracy.