socaltownie said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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Now neo-cons and neo-libs are trying to tie funding Ukraine and money for Israel together!! MORE BILLIONS!! How about no more money that we don't have to other countries until we have a budget that gets us to a point we aren't slashing social security 20% in 7 years!!!

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You do realize that the degredation of Russia's military capacity (and the continued deterrance of China in the Tawian Straights) is really a cheap investment.

Social security largely solved if we would raise the exemption cap to $250,000. But of course BI'ers that are well paid salaried Lawyers, bankers and doctors would scream.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/experts-propose-tax-cap-social-144535645.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALu_KbcrireARVZeh6Q8ZmFvNvDdiEcaUJZyGOGVzmzRBUqQFi91_x8cLvKAFNViXDNoTGok2S45P4fUutmTVhDj8tQIbVMGQM_hJ3J8kPxdCeJbhwFVPoJKOGuL48qX_JZhYA332a9uUo5gBCQNPYKbkz5o8TgfFnG_wCkMk9vt#:~:text=Raising%20the%20Cap,capacity%20beyond%20the%20next%20decade.

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MinotStateBeav said:

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I don't care about Israel or Palestine at all really. What Hamas did is just like an Isis attack and for that Israel has enough already to take care of business, we don't need to get involved, except to sell weapons. Hamas is their elected gov't so they can deal with the consequences of those actions.

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socaltownie said:

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BearHunter said:

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It's difficult to find a full explanation of how this conflict started and I'm sure the ones I posted above can't possibly explain it all in 5 minutes.

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The above is simply propoganda (and especially Praeger who is essentially a millinialist who needs a Jewish state to exist to comport with prophecy).


It's difficult to find a full explanation of how this conflict started....

IMHO, In some senses it is beside the point and one of the problems is trying to get to "the root of the problem." I mean do we try to go back to the 1600s to try to decide who has the rightful claim to Ulster or, instead, say that the Protestant and Catholic community both live in Northern Ireland and any solution to the troubles required that this reality be accepted?

IN my simple mind that is at the core. Until large majorities in Isreal and in the Palistean community come to this conclusion it feels like tthere will never be a lasting "peace." And IMHO the continued violence also reflects the near impossibilty of trying to be a democratic and liberal state but which places central the idea of a "religious" identity. A big chunk of what lead to democracy was explicitly a reaction to the idea that the "state" would sanction a "state" religion.


PS. I am less up to speed on Islamic "end times" prophecy but fundamentalist Christians have done no one favors in this. The instance that there be a "jewish state" as prophesized by a 3rd century hermit thinking about what that would mean in Roman times is inflicting untold horrors on people.

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dajo9 said:

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socaltownie said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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Now neo-cons and neo-libs are trying to tie funding Ukraine and money for Israel together!! MORE BILLIONS!! How about no more money that we don't have to other countries until we have a budget that gets us to a point we aren't slashing social security 20% in 7 years!!!

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You do realize that the degredation of Russia's military capacity (and the continued deterrance of China in the Tawian Straights) is really a cheap investment.

Social security largely solved if we would raise the exemption cap to $250,000. But of course BI'ers that are well paid salaried Lawyers, bankers and doctors would scream.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/experts-propose-tax-cap-social-144535645.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALu_KbcrireARVZeh6Q8ZmFvNvDdiEcaUJZyGOGVzmzRBUqQFi91_x8cLvKAFNViXDNoTGok2S45P4fUutmTVhDj8tQIbVMGQM_hJ3J8kPxdCeJbhwFVPoJKOGuL48qX_JZhYA332a9uUo5gBCQNPYKbkz5o8TgfFnG_wCkMk9vt#:~:text=Raising%20the%20Cap,capacity%20beyond%20the%20next%20decade.

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That group you are talking about raising taxes on is the most taxed group of Americans as a percent of income. I'm talking about high income earners as opposed to high wealth-holders.

How about a doughnut hole where payroll taxes begin again above $500k?

Or how about taxing capital gains like income, including payroll taxes (except maybe it doesn't begin until $250k). There are lots of solutions that don't tax the most taxed.

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sycasey said:

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My take is that two things can be true:

1. Israel's apartheid-esque treatment of Palestinians within its borders and in quasi-autonomous regions (Gaza, West Bank) is terrible, and the way Netanyahu has been gradually raising the temperature during his time in power surely has not helped the situation.

2. Hamas having control in Gaza is also terrible. They are a violent terrorist organization that does not deserve support from anyone, and their actions against civilian concert-goers (many of whom do not support the Israeli government policies) cannot be justified.

There's not really a clear "bad guy" here like Putin in Ukraine, though if I had to say who has more POWER and AGENCY to improve the situation, it's Israel. The more they put the squeeze on Palestinian civilians, the more followers Hamas gains. Bibi's approach might provide some more short-term security for Israel, but in the long term he's hurting everyone. There needs to be a wholesale change in the Israeli political environment. I don't know how soon that will happen, so things will probably get worse before they get better. This whole thing is driven by religious grievances going back centuries, so that takes a lot to unwind.

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

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socaltownie said:

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dajo9 said:

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socaltownie said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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Now neo-cons and neo-libs are trying to tie funding Ukraine and money for Israel together!! MORE BILLIONS!! How about no more money that we don't have to other countries until we have a budget that gets us to a point we aren't slashing social security 20% in 7 years!!!

---

You do realize that the degredation of Russia's military capacity (and the continued deterrance of China in the Tawian Straights) is really a cheap investment.

Social security largely solved if we would raise the exemption cap to $250,000. But of course BI'ers that are well paid salaried Lawyers, bankers and doctors would scream.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/experts-propose-tax-cap-social-144535645.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALu_KbcrireARVZeh6Q8ZmFvNvDdiEcaUJZyGOGVzmzRBUqQFi91_x8cLvKAFNViXDNoTGok2S45P4fUutmTVhDj8tQIbVMGQM_hJ3J8kPxdCeJbhwFVPoJKOGuL48qX_JZhYA332a9uUo5gBCQNPYKbkz5o8TgfFnG_wCkMk9vt#:~:text=Raising%20the%20Cap,capacity%20beyond%20the%20next%20decade.

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That group you are talking about raising taxes on is the most taxed group of Americans as a percent of income. I'm talking about high income earners as opposed to high wealth-holders.

How about a doughnut hole where payroll taxes begin again above $500k?

Or how about taxing capital gains like income, including payroll taxes (except maybe it doesn't begin until $250k). There are lots of solutions that don't tax the most taxed.

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Problem is that income above $500K starts to largely be in non-wage forms and thus harder to tax. Also capital gains horribly volite. And it isn't clear once you add in EVERYTHING (income, SSI, sales tax, property) that your assertion that this group is "the most heavily taxed" is at all true. Income tax is highly progressive but the others are not and it is especially true that once we start looking at HH with over 250-300K the true tax incidence as a percentage of total income drops like a rock. It is why Warren Buffet pays an effective tax rate LOWER than his secretary or why there are years were Larry Ellison owed NOTHING.

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

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Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

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Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

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A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

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sycasey said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

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Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

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A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

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On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

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bearister said:

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Hamas announces it will begin to EXECUTE hostages
https://mol.im/a/12611665

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

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A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

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On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

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No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

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A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

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On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

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No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

---

A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

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On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

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No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

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It is impossible for America to stay out of it because we are already in it. We are already not simply involved but integral to what has happened there for 50 years. We provide critical military, intelligence, economic, technological, diplomatic and ideological support for Israel in massive quantities.

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No electricity, no food, no fuel for 1 million children. Straight from the horse's mouth. That can't be the civilised world's answer, whatever differences we may have on who did what to whom first or last. https://t.co/UM0xsRJJhs

— Yanis Varoufakis (@yanisvaroufakis) October 9, 2023

wifeisafurd said:

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concordtom said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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The current incursion was initiated for the rather transparent reason of trying to disrupt the normalization of Israeli relationship with Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries being pushed by the Biden Administration. For better or worse, their view was this would bring faster peace to the middle east. Instead, it now seems like just another proxy battle between Saudi and Iran which serves objectives of Hamas leaders financially with money from Iran (just as most aide ended up in PLO leadership pockets years before). A Saudi-Isreaal deal could lead to an infusion of Saudi money for the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate group than Hamas and the loss of money flowing to Hamas leaders.

Expect the Biden administration and Saudi Royals (indirectly) to provide weapons to Israel, and that will allow you to gauge the level of response by Israel. I'm not getting how this will help the Palestinians after Israel destroys the infrastructure in Gaza, and no one really cares about what either side thinks the their silly history lessons are at this point. We are where we are presently, as Gaza turns into rubble.

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Wow! You summed it up wonderfully, laid at the feet of Biden. Pfft!


And here I thought this guy was behind it all.



Or maybe we should ask this guy.



Or let's consult this guy:



Yesterday I was doing some reading about who ruled Israel before there was an Israel. I landed at a Wikipedia page on Mandatory Palestine (British). Then you can click on "preceded by" link to that which goes back to Ottoman Empire.

This page might be worth reading.
Before you dump it on Biden's lap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war#:~:text=19471948%20civil%20war%20in%20Mandatory%20Palestine,-Main%20article%3A%201947&text=The%20first%20phase%20of%20the,statehood%20on%2014%20May%201948.

I suppose I shouldn't be so harsh on you.
You're not saying the whole thing. You're saying the current, most recent back and forth. Okay, I get it.
But you elicit such a response with your headlining Biden Administration line. Come on, now.

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Tom, as often is the case, you're blinded by your hatred from Trump. Biden has been the President since January 20, 2021, and it is now October 9, 2023, so we are moving towards half-way in Biden's first term. This may come as a surprise to you, but Trump's son in law has not been involved in foreign affairs for some time, and Biden has well qualified experts and diplomats (and not his son in law) on the Middle East. You need to remove Trump from your a-hole already.

Biden and his staff have entered into high-stakes negotiations among Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United States to normalize relationships. This has major economic, military and political consequeces for region and particuary for Iran. If Biden pulls it off, he shakes the dynamics of the Middle East and he isolates the influence of Iran and Putin in the region. Biden may also get an environmental bump, which is a discussion for another thread.

The relationship between Hamas and Israel has been deteriorating. The Netanyahu right coalition government has been conducting an escalating crackdown against what it says are rising Palestinian terror attacks for more than a couple years, but that doesn't really explain the timing. Hamas did't really have much in the way of military weapons to sustain a battle with Israel, but all of a sudden showed off it was armed, likely from Iran. Israel, which not only has a huge military advantage before, but is now being supplied by the US and other allies with the latest and greatest, as the US carrier fleet now moves in range, should be US be drawn in.

U.S. intelligence and military officers say they believed the timing of the Hamas attack was primarily aimed at disrupting negotiations between Israel and Saudi Arabia as the Saudis appeared on the verge of a historic step to normalize relations with Israel. If you don't want to take their or my word for it, how about everyone else:

CBS:Experts say it could undermine his claim his leadership makes for a safer world. - https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/israeli-hamas-conflict-tests-bidens-foreign-policy-message/story?id=103836878

Time:TimeWhy Hamas Tried to Sabotage Peace Prospects With an Attack1 day ago

WSJ:The Wall Street JournalAfter Hamas Attacks Israel, Biden's Top Foreign-Policy Goals Hit Turbulence1 day ago

How about the administration (unnamed Senior Administration Official being interviewed for background):
Background Press Call by a Senior Administration Official ...The White House (.gov)https://www.whitehouse.gov Press Briefings

I could just go through pretty much every new service, right or left.

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wifeisafurd said:

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bearister said:

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This morning I suggested to my wife that the Israeli security lapse seems hard to believe and what if Netanyahu wanted this to happen like some claim FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming.

Then this:

"In one of the said warnings, Egypt's Intelligence Minister General Abbas Kamel personally called Netanyahu only 10 days before the massive attack that Gazans were likely to do "something unusual, a terrible operation," according to the Ynet news site.

"Unnamed Egyptian officials told the site they were shocked by Netanyahu's indifference to the news and said the premier told the minister the military was "submerged" in troubles in the West Bank."

Netanyahu's tRumpian response: "This is completely fake news."

Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of 'something big' | The Times of Israel


https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

*I don't know whether Egypt's claim of a warning is true or not, but if it's true, Bibi's enemies within will get a spotlight on it.

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Bib's enemies are now supporting a unified "war cabinet" which includes a member from all parties. So one thing Hamas succeeded in is turning a peace movement in a divided Israel into a unified war movement led by Bibi.

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Cal88 said:

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No electricity, no food, no fuel for 1 million children. Straight from the horse's mouth. That can't be the civilised world's answer, whatever differences we may have on who did what to whom first or last. https://t.co/UM0xsRJJhs

— Yanis Varoufakis (@yanisvaroufakis) October 9, 2023

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dajo9 said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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dajo9 said:

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Israel has shut off electricity, water, and food to Gaza. Looks like Israel has taken about 800,000 hostages.

The U.S. should not be involved.

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Here comes the "US is involved in everything and everything is the fault of the US" crowd in 3... 2... 1...

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I really hope you aren't trying to lump me in with that crowd. That type is here and the U.S. is never wrong type is here and then some people like me look at different foreign policy happenings and come up with different opinions based on the underlying facts.

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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Cal88 said:

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No electricity, no food, no fuel for 1 million children. Straight from the horse's mouth. That can't be the civilised world's answer, whatever differences we may have on who did what to whom first or last. https://t.co/UM0xsRJJhs

— Yanis Varoufakis (@yanisvaroufakis) October 9, 2023

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Wikipedia says Gaza has a population of 2 million people. Are half of them children?

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

---

A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

---

On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

---

No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

---

It is impossible for America to stay out of it because we are already in it. We are already not simply involved but integral to what has happened there for 50 years. We provide critical military, intelligence, economic, technological, diplomatic and ideological support for Israel in massive quantities.

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Every journey begins with a single step

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I'd love for that step to be taken but unfortunately I'm betting on steps in the other direction. Our entire political class is allied with Israel. Approx 98% of the House and 100% of the Senate were supporters (tacit or explicit) of the status quo even before Hamas' assault on Saturday. Opposing the alliance with Israel will only become even harder now politically.

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kal kommie said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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Cal88 said:

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No electricity, no food, no fuel for 1 million children. Straight from the horse's mouth. That can't be the civilised world's answer, whatever differences we may have on who did what to whom first or last. https://t.co/UM0xsRJJhs

— Yanis Varoufakis (@yanisvaroufakis) October 9, 2023

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Wikipedia says Gaza has a population of 2 million people. Are half of them children?

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800k (44%) are age 14 or under

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine#Demographics_of_the_Gaza_Strip

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