An Israeli probe has confirmed that the IDF killed some of the Israeli victims at the Oct. 7th rave.

This was exposed weeks ago by @AliAbunimah @davidsheen in @intifada; @Mondoweiss; @MaxBlumenthal of @TheGrayzoneNews.

Their reports were dismissed as "conspiracy theories." https://t.co/E2ylGIiWON

— Aaron Maté (@aaronjmate) November 18, 2023

Recent IDF videos show terrorists bringing hostages into Al Shifa hospital, weapons stored inside Al Shifa, weapons/explosives at a children's hospital, tunnels adjacent to / at assorted hospitals, mortar bombs in / adjacent to a kindergarten class, mortar bombs stored by a terrorist under his daughter's bed, a cache of mortars inside a daycare, etc.

I know, I know. Propaganda. (But keep asking why "civilian" sites are bombed)

tequila4kapp said:

---

Recent IDF videos show terrorists bringing hostages into Al Shifa hospital, weapons stored inside Al Shifa, weapons/explosives at a children's hospital, tunnels adjacent to / at assorted hospitals, mortar bombs in / adjacent to a kindergarten class, mortar bombs stored by a terrorist under his daughter's bed, a cache of mortars inside a daycare, etc.

I know, I know. Propaganda. (But keep asking why "civilian" sites are bombed)

---

The main videos made in Al Shifa hospital with the calendar in the louge and the weapons pack hidden right next to the MRI machine were laughably bad propaganda work.

Comically bad propaganda from the IDF here, chucking around clearly empty cardboard boxes with "medical supplies" written in huge letters in English on them.

(This is taken from an official IDF video). pic.twitter.com/hNKrjpuOOe

— Alan MacLeod (@AlanRMacLeod) November 16, 2023

Really happy with my new sketch.pic.twitter.com/2cpo8Rvbce

— Tadhg (@TadhgHickey) November 14, 2023

Bottom line, around 40% of the buildings in Gaza have been bombed so far IIRC. This indicates that the Israelis are engaging in indiscriminate destruction of civilian areas and collective punishment, as opposed to a targeted attack on Hamas assets. This is actually entirely consistent with the many statements from their officials calling for mass retribution.

Israeli children sing to “annihilate everyone” in Gaza in genocidal war anthem

This Nazi-esque ethnosupremacist propaganda was published by Israel’s national broadcaster, @kann_news, and subsequently deleted

via @intifada pic.twitter.com/Jn7S5kJNC1

— Max Blumenthal (@MaxBlumenthal) November 19, 2023

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Recent IDF videos show terrorists bringing hostages into Al Shifa hospital, weapons stored inside Al Shifa, weapons/explosives at a children's hospital, tunnels adjacent to / at assorted hospitals, mortar bombs in / adjacent to a kindergarten class, mortar bombs stored by a terrorist under his daughter's bed, a cache of mortars inside a daycare, etc.

I know, I know. Propaganda. (But keep asking why "civilian" sites are bombed)

---

The main videos made in Al Shifa hospital with the calendar in the louge and the weapons pack hidden right next to the MRI machine were laughably bad propaganda work.

Comically bad propaganda from the IDF here, chucking around clearly empty cardboard boxes with "medical supplies" written in huge letters in English on them.

(This is taken from an official IDF video). pic.twitter.com/hNKrjpuOOe

— Alan MacLeod (@AlanRMacLeod) November 16, 2023

Really happy with my new sketch.pic.twitter.com/2cpo8Rvbce

— Tadhg (@TadhgHickey) November 14, 2023

Bottom line, around 40% of the buildings in Gaza have been bombed so far IIRC. This indicates that the Israelis are engaging in indiscriminate destruction of civilian areas and collective punishment, as opposed to a targeted attack on Hamas assets. This is actually entirely consistent with the many statements from their officials calling for mass retribution.

Israeli children sing to “annihilate everyone” in Gaza in genocidal war anthem

This Nazi-esque ethnosupremacist propaganda was published by Israel’s national broadcaster, @kann_news, and subsequently deleted

via @intifada pic.twitter.com/Jn7S5kJNC1

— Max Blumenthal (@MaxBlumenthal) November 19, 2023

---

Hey Cal88, what is your explanation for how and why Hamas attacks Israel from UN sponsored schools?

https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/

Cal88 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Hey Cal88, what is your explanation for how and why Hamas attacks Israel from UN sponsored schools?

https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/

---

-Do you consider that site to be a neutral source?

-Did Hamas attack Israel from the churches packed with refugees, that Israel has also bombed?

-Did Hamas station military assets in 40% of homes and buildings in Gaza, which Israel has bombed?

The pattern is clear, they want to turn the whole strip into rubble, make it inhabitable for its 2 million denizens by bombing the infrastructure - schools, powerplants, water treatment, hospitals etc,

"We will annihilate everyone in Gaza".

---

What is your explanation for how and why Hamas attacks Israel from UN sponsored schools? Please stop answering a question with questions.

Cal88 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Hey Cal88, what is your explanation for how and why Hamas attacks Israel from UN sponsored schools?

https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/

---

-Do you consider that site to be a neutral source?

-Did Hamas attack Israel from the churches packed with refugees, that Israel has also bombed?

-Did Hamas station military assets in 40% of homes and buildings in Gaza, which Israel has bombed?

The pattern is clear, they want to turn the whole strip into rubble, make it inhabitable for its 2 million denizens by bombing the infrastructure - schools, powerplants, water treatment, hospitals etc,

"We will annihilate everyone in Gaza".

---

What is your explanation for how and why Hamas attacks Israel from UN sponsored schools? Please stop answering a question with questions.

---

There is no support for that claim, other than a site run by pro-Israel lobbyists.

There is no support for Al Shifa hospital being some kind of a Hamas base, the evidence put forth by the IDF is laughably false.

And there is no support whatsoever for the churches being bombed by Israel having any connection with Hamas or military activities.

Why does Israel bomb Palestinian churches?

---

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-181630/

"Concerning the discovery by the United Nations of weaponry on United Nations premises, I am dismayed that Palestinian militant groups would put United Nations schools at risk by using them to hide their arms. The three schools at which weaponry was found were empty at the time and were not being used as shelters. However, the fact that they were used by those involved in the fighting to store their weaponry and, in two cases, probably to fire from is unacceptable. It serves to undermine the confidence that all concerned should have that United Nations premises are civilian objects and may therefore not be made the object of attack."

Incident (h): Presence of weaponry at UNRWA Gaza Beach Elementary Co-educational "B" School on 16 July 2014

55. On 16 July 2015, a 120 mm mortar tube, a mortar bipod and twenty 120 mm mortar-round containers, with ammunition, were discovered under a blanket in a corner of a locked classroom. The weaponry was photographed.

56. UNRWA senior management notified the local authorities in Gaza and asked that the weapons be removed. The United Nations Department of Safety and Security contacted the Special Protection Unit of the local police and also asked that the weapons be removed; this would presumably be done by the local police explosive ordnance detachment. The Unit asked that the United Nations guarantee that IDF would not strike while the weapons were being removed and that a United Nations vehicle be used to remove the weapons. The Department refused.

57. The Board was informed that UNRWA had received testimony that two individuals identifying themselves as policemen had gone to the school, claimed that they knew who was responsible for the cache of weapons and left a telephone number. Upon being contacted, one of the individuals stated that the weapons would be removed from the school in the early morning. The Board was further informed that, early in the morning of 17 July, the door to the classroom in question was found locked, with no signs of forced entry or exit, and that the weapons had been removed.

58. On 17 July, UNRWA informed the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Israel about finding the weapons and their subsequent disappearance. In the afternoon of 17 July, UNRWA issued a press release stating that a cache of approximately 20 rockets (sic) had been found hidden in a vacant school. Under the misapprehension that the explosive ordnance detachment of the local police had removed the weaponry, the press release stated that UNRWA had informed the relevant parties and had successfully taken all measures necessary for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school.

59. The Board found that, in the light of the situation in the vicinity, the security measures at the school were weak prior to and on the day of the incident, owing partly to the fact that the personnel charged with the school's security were subject to life-threatening circumstances. It also found that an unidentified Palestinian armed group had used the school premises to hide the weaponry.

Incident (i): Presence of weaponry at UNRWA Jabalia Elementary "C" and Ayyobiya Boys School on 22 July 2014

60. Jabalia Elementary "C" and Ayyobiya Boys School is one in a row of five schools situated in an urban area to the east of the Jabalia refugee camp. Behind the school is a large open area with agricultural land used for small-scale farming. The Board was informed that the area was known to be used by armed groups as a site for firing weapons and that it had been targeted by IDF in past conflicts.

...

Other school....

82. The Board found that, in the light of the security situation around the school at the time, the security measures at the school were weak, both prior to and on the days of the two incidents, owing partly to the fact that the personnel charged with security at the school were subject to life-threatening circumstances. The Board also found that the presence of weapons and other evidence found in the school indicated that the premises could have been used for an unknown period of time by members of a Palestinian armed group and that it was likely that such a group may have fired the mortar from within the premises of the school.

Genocide Joe said:

---

An Israeli probe has confirmed that the IDF killed some of the Israeli victims at the Oct. 7th rave.

This was exposed weeks ago by @AliAbunimah @davidsheen in @intifada; @Mondoweiss; @MaxBlumenthal of @TheGrayzoneNews.

Their reports were dismissed as "conspiracy theories." https://t.co/E2ylGIiWON

— Aaron Maté (@aaronjmate) November 18, 2023

---

Just so i understand the premise here:

When terrorists attack and the police/army respond possibly resulting in the death of civilians/hostages/victims of the terrorist attack, you think those deaths are the fault of the army/police? I have no idea if this report is correct, but if it is I don't blame the Israelis and any innocent killed was in fact the victim of Hamas.

In the Munich Massacre, where hostages were killed, did we blame the Palestinian terrorists or the German police?

Crazy victim blaming.

And separately, I thought I'd share this. Maybe it was posted previously - I haven't read the whole thread - but this sure seems problematic to anyone claiming Israel has a peace partner.

Shock Survey: 89% of Palestinians support terror groups known for suicide attacks, while 75% approve of October 7 massacrehttps://t.co/HFOfsK9Dbe

— Jordan Schachtel @ dossier.today (@JordanSchachtel) November 17, 2023

Cal88 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Hey Cal88, what is your explanation for how and why Hamas attacks Israel from UN sponsored schools?

https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/

---

-Do you consider that site to be a neutral source?

-Did Hamas attack Israel from the churches packed with refugees, that Israel has also bombed?

-Did Hamas station military assets in 40% of homes and buildings in Gaza, which Israel has bombed?

The pattern is clear, they want to turn the whole strip into rubble, make it inhabitable for its 2 million denizens by bombing the infrastructure - schools, powerplants, water treatment, hospitals etc,

"We will annihilate everyone in Gaza".

---

What is your explanation for how and why Hamas attacks Israel from UN sponsored schools? Please stop answering a question with questions.

---

There is no support for that claim, other than a site run by pro-Israel lobbyists.

There is no support for Al Shifa hospital being some kind of a Hamas base, the evidence put forth by the IDF is laughably false.

And there is no support whatsoever for the churches being bombed by Israel having any connection with Hamas or military activities.

Why does Israel bomb Palestinian churches?

---

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-181630/

"Concerning the discovery by the United Nations of weaponry on United Nations premises, I am dismayed that Palestinian militant groups would put United Nations schools at risk by using them to hide their arms. The three schools at which weaponry was found were empty at the time and were not being used as shelters. However, the fact that they were used by those involved in the fighting to store their weaponry and, in two cases, probably to fire from is unacceptable. It serves to undermine the confidence that all concerned should have that United Nations premises are civilian objects and may therefore not be made the object of attack."

Incident (h): Presence of weaponry at UNRWA Gaza Beach Elementary Co-educational "B" School on 16 July 2014

55. On 16 July 2015, a 120 mm mortar tube, a mortar bipod and twenty 120 mm mortar-round containers, with ammunition, were discovered under a blanket in a corner of a locked classroom. The weaponry was photographed.

56. UNRWA senior management notified the local authorities in Gaza and asked that the weapons be removed. The United Nations Department of Safety and Security contacted the Special Protection Unit of the local police and also asked that the weapons be removed; this would presumably be done by the local police explosive ordnance detachment. The Unit asked that the United Nations guarantee that IDF would not strike while the weapons were being removed and that a United Nations vehicle be used to remove the weapons. The Department refused.

57. The Board was informed that UNRWA had received testimony that two individuals identifying themselves as policemen had gone to the school, claimed that they knew who was responsible for the cache of weapons and left a telephone number. Upon being contacted, one of the individuals stated that the weapons would be removed from the school in the early morning. The Board was further informed that, early in the morning of 17 July, the door to the classroom in question was found locked, with no signs of forced entry or exit, and that the weapons had been removed.

58. On 17 July, UNRWA informed the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Israel about finding the weapons and their subsequent disappearance. In the afternoon of 17 July, UNRWA issued a press release stating that a cache of approximately 20 rockets (sic) had been found hidden in a vacant school. Under the misapprehension that the explosive ordnance detachment of the local police had removed the weaponry, the press release stated that UNRWA had informed the relevant parties and had successfully taken all measures necessary for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school.

59. The Board found that, in the light of the situation in the vicinity, the security measures at the school were weak prior to and on the day of the incident, owing partly to the fact that the personnel charged with the school's security were subject to life-threatening circumstances. It also found that an unidentified Palestinian armed group had used the school premises to hide the weaponry.

Incident (i): Presence of weaponry at UNRWA Jabalia Elementary "C" and Ayyobiya Boys School on 22 July 2014

60. Jabalia Elementary "C" and Ayyobiya Boys School is one in a row of five schools situated in an urban area to the east of the Jabalia refugee camp. Behind the school is a large open area with agricultural land used for small-scale farming. The Board was informed that the area was known to be used by armed groups as a site for firing weapons and that it had been targeted by IDF in past conflicts.

...

Other school....

82. The Board found that, in the light of the security situation around the school at the time, the security measures at the school were weak, both prior to and on the days of the two incidents, owing partly to the fact that the personnel charged with security at the school were subject to life-threatening circumstances. The Board also found that the presence of weapons and other evidence found in the school indicated that the premises could have been used for an unknown period of time by members of a Palestinian armed group and that it was likely that such a group may have fired the mortar from within the premises of the school.

---

The school was apparently used to store weapons in July of 2014, so during Summer recess when they were unoccupied and not in use as schools. That matter seems to have been addressed by the UN administration running the school 9 years ago.

There is no evidence of recent use of the school as a weapons storage ground.

As well, the school had been used as a shelter at the time of its bombing last week and was very crowded with refugees, including a lot of children, probably students whose homes and neighborhoods had been bombed. Israel knew this, and still went ahead and bombed the school.

🇵🇸🇮🇱 Israel just bombed UN-run Fakhura School in Northern Gaza.

At least 50 dead.

That school was acting as a shelter to hundreds.

Many of the victims are children.

How can anyone defend this!? pic.twitter.com/FFWePUj91h

— Censored Men (@CensoredMen) November 18, 2023

Is there a UN report about the churches that Israel bombed being Hamas weapons arsenals?

---

The report is about three UN schools that Hamas hid munitions at, including rockets and mortars. They weren't all found in July. Regardless, you denied this ever happened and accused an initial reporting source of being biased and false. I am glad I found a primary source that could verify what you denied. These UN reports are created after the fact. What will it take for you to actually believe the Al Shifa tunnel hospital shaft is real since you refused to even believe the known fact that Hamas used UN schools?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html

Cal88 said:

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In this case,

1-there are no buried stories that the hospitals, schools and churches were used for military purposes today. You're using one case of a school having been found to contain a small stash of weapons during the Summer break of 2014, and the UN authorities running the school taking action to remove these items.

There is no evidence of churches being used for military purposes in particular, and plenty of evidence that Israel bombed them.

2- these facilities, including the churches, were packed with refugees when they were bombed. The targeting of such a building indicates that the bombing campaign is indiscriminate, meant to hurt civilians/refugees.

---

Can you explain the meaning of the "no buried stories" sentence? Sorry, I'm just not tracking.

I posted above summarizing reports about Hamas storage of weapons. I didn't link each individual story for a few reasons. But there are actual reports from traditionally trusted news sources with picture/video of rockets stored in schools, under children's beds, etc. Same with grenades, bombs, firearms at or adjacent to hospitals (including a children's hospital). Same with tunnel structures at hospitals.

Frankly, you appear to have an immensely closed mind. You may be right about the churches, I don't know. I don't know because you are so biased and so closed minded that it becomes pointless to chase these things down and present the evidence to you; we can pretty much predict that you will never concede anything favorable to Israel and will instead have a Pavlovian "Its propaganda!" response. Hell, you didn't even believe the video which literally showed the hospital being hit by the terrorist's flawed rocket (and probably still don't).

Cal88 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

The school was apparently used to store weapons in July of 2014, so during Summer recess when they were unoccupied and not in use as schools. That matter seems to have been addressed by the UN administration running the school 9 years ago.

There is no evidence of recent use of the school as a weapons storage ground.

As well, the school had been used as a shelter at the time of its bombing last week and was very crowded with refugees, including a lot of children, probably students whose homes and neighborhoods had been bombed. Israel knew this, and still went ahead and bombed the school.

🇵🇸🇮🇱 Israel just bombed UN-run Fakhura School in Northern Gaza.

At least 50 dead.

That school was acting as a shelter to hundreds.

Many of the victims are children.

How can anyone defend this!? pic.twitter.com/FFWePUj91h

— Censored Men (@CensoredMen) November 18, 2023

Is there a UN report about the churches that Israel bombed being Hamas weapons arsenals?

---

The report is about three UN schools that Hamas hid munitions at, including rockets and mortars. They weren't all found in July. Regardless, you denied this ever happened and accused an initial reporting source of being biased and false. I am glad I found a primary source that could verify what you denied. These UN reports are created after the fact. What will it take for you to actually believe the Al Shifa tunnel hospital shaft is real since you refused to even believe the known fact that Hamas used UN schools?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html

---

The UN monitors that school, which they run. They have found a small cache of weapons there in the Summer of 2014, and acted accordingly.

...There is no evidence of military activity taking place at that school this Fall, and the school was sheltering hundreds of refugees, with a heavy presence of children. You believe that the fact that a mortar and 20 tube rockets were found in Summer 9 years ago is grounds to massacre dozens of children who were sheltered there, I vehemently disagree.

---

Which school? No, I don't believe finding rockets in 2014 is grounds for bombing a school with no weapons or militants in 2023. I never said that, and you can't seem to follow along anyway.

All that is happening here : You said Israel is bombing UN schools, hospitals, and Churches. I say, well Hamas uses them in their ops. You said, no they don't. Here is proof they used them before. You say, that is biased! I find primary source. You fail to read primary source, minimize it, and then correctly say that was 7 years ago. I say what what about the evidence today that Hamas' uses schools, hospitals, and Churches. You say that it is biased. After all, you believe that source made a propaganda video with fake medical supplies.

Why do you believe Hamas doesn't use schools, hospitals, and Churches? There was a story where Russia bombed a community center and lots of Ukrainian civilians died. Buried in later news was the fact that they were distributing drones at the center.

---

In this case,

1-there are no buried stories that the hospitals, schools and churches were used for military purposes today. You're using one case of a school having been found to contain a small stash of weapons during the Summer break of 2014, and the UN authorities running the school taking action to remove these items.

There is no evidence of churches being used for military purposes in particular, and plenty of evidence that Israel bombed them.

2- these facilities, including the churches, were packed with refugees when they were bombed. The targeting of such a building indicates that the bombing campaign is indiscriminate, meant to hurt civilians/refugees.

---

Three schools. Learn to read.

Obvious conclusion but this is a very good explanation.

If you want to understand what Hamas is doing now, watch this. Very well said, very easily explained.

pic.twitter.com/utBMuFgyvu

— Brian Lilley (@brianlilley) November 20, 2023

Cal88 said:

---

JAG officer debunks the Al Shifa video claiming that the hospital basement was a Hamas quarters:

A former U.S. Marine refutes Israeli army propaganda for the evidence that was obtained from Al Shifa Hospital #Gaza

You will love it, I promise you.
(1) #Israel pic.twitter.com/hEoM62xOCw

— Abier (@abierkhatib) November 20, 2023

---

He only debunks that it was a command and control center. He says nothing about whether or not it was a Hamas quarters. Thanks.

I wouldn't by a used car from either side in the Israeli/Hamas war or the Russian Invasion of the Ukraine war.

tequila4kapp said:

---

Frankly, you appear to have an immensely closed mind. You may be right about the churches, I don't know. I don't know because you are so biased and so closed minded that it becomes pointless to chase these things down and present the evidence to you; we can pretty much predict that you will never concede anything favorable to Israel and will instead have a Pavlovian "Its propaganda!" response. Hell, you didn't even believe the video which literally showed the hospital being hit by the terrorist's flawed rocket (and probably still don't).

---

I'm glad more people are figuring this out about Cal88. He complains constantly about American/Western/Israeli propaganda but is basically a propagandist himself. Anything that doesn't fit his preferred view is simply jettisoned.

It's why I stopped paying attention to his Ukraine takes a while ago, and why even though I happen to be sympathetic to his pro-Palestinian view in this case I also don't take his evidence seriously here. He just wants to serve an agenda.

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Frankly, you appear to have an immensely closed mind. You may be right about the churches, I don't know. I don't know because you are so biased and so closed minded that it becomes pointless to chase these things down and present the evidence to you; we can pretty much predict that you will never concede anything favorable to Israel and will instead have a Pavlovian "Its propaganda!" response. Hell, you didn't even believe the video which literally showed the hospital being hit by the terrorist's flawed rocket (and probably still don't).

---

I'm glad more people are figuring this out about Cal88. He complains constantly about American/Western/Israeli propaganda but is basically a propagandist himself. Anything that doesn't fit his preferred view is simply jettisoned.

It's why I stopped paying attention to his Ukraine takes a while ago, and why even though I happen to be sympathetic to his pro-Palestinian view in this case I also don't take his evidence seriously here. He just wants to serve an agenda.

---

We certainly disagree about Ukraine, but my analysis and predictions on that conflict turned out to be correct. It has been a monumental waste of human life, enabled by a false narrative and "magical thinking", to quote the WSJ, that you and U2S still believe in.

Are people like Mearsheimer, Jeffrey Sachs, MacGregor also propagandists? They are the leading experts in their field, and their assessment of the Ukraine crisis is similar to mine. The reason one could qualify that assessment as propaganda is because it is a fairly unpopular position that elicits a lot of hostility.

Funnily enough, I disagree about Israel/Palestine with guys who agreed with me about Ukraine, and find myself in agreement on that issue with posters who disagree with me about Ukraine.

---

i certainly agree that we have been fed a lot of propaganda to support the defense of Ukraine. However, supporting Hamas and not supporting Ukraine are both favorable to Putin. It wouldn't surprise me if Putin greenlighted the gruesome Hamas attack knowing US support of Israel would distract from their support of Ukraine. Your positions seem to align with Putin's positions.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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tequila4kapp said:

---

Frankly, you appear to have an immensely closed mind. You may be right about the churches, I don't know. I don't know because you are so biased and so closed minded that it becomes pointless to chase these things down and present the evidence to you; we can pretty much predict that you will never concede anything favorable to Israel and will instead have a Pavlovian "Its propaganda!" response. Hell, you didn't even believe the video which literally showed the hospital being hit by the terrorist's flawed rocket (and probably still don't).

---

I'm glad more people are figuring this out about Cal88. He complains constantly about American/Western/Israeli propaganda but is basically a propagandist himself. Anything that doesn't fit his preferred view is simply jettisoned.

It's why I stopped paying attention to his Ukraine takes a while ago, and why even though I happen to be sympathetic to his pro-Palestinian view in this case I also don't take his evidence seriously here. He just wants to serve an agenda.

---

We certainly disagree about Ukraine, but my analysis and predictions on that conflict turned out to be correct.

---

This is true - if you ignore all the stuff Cal88 got wrong

Cal88 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

JAG officer debunks the Al Shifa video claiming that the hospital basement was a Hamas quarters:

A former U.S. Marine refutes Israeli army propaganda for the evidence that was obtained from Al Shifa Hospital #Gaza

You will love it, I promise you.
(1) #Israel pic.twitter.com/hEoM62xOCw

— Abier (@abierkhatib) November 20, 2023

---

He only debunks that it was a command and control center. He says nothing about whether or not it was a Hamas quarters. Thanks.

---

The officer claimed that the computer was that of a Hamas operative, he debunked that.

---

No, he did not.

He offered an opinion about the 1st thing he would expect Israeli intelligence to do with intelligence. That opinion debunked nothing.

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Frankly, you appear to have an immensely closed mind. You may be right about the churches, I don't know. I don't know because you are so biased and so closed minded that it becomes pointless to chase these things down and present the evidence to you; we can pretty much predict that you will never concede anything favorable to Israel and will instead have a Pavlovian "Its propaganda!" response. Hell, you didn't even believe the video which literally showed the hospital being hit by the terrorist's flawed rocket (and probably still don't).

---

I'm glad more people are figuring this out about Cal88. He complains constantly about American/Western/Israeli propaganda but is basically a propagandist himself. Anything that doesn't fit his preferred view is simply jettisoned.

It's why I stopped paying attention to his Ukraine takes a while ago, and why even though I happen to be sympathetic to his pro-Palestinian view in this case I also don't take his evidence seriously here. He just wants to serve an agenda.

---

We certainly disagree about Ukraine, but my analysis and predictions on that conflict turned out to be correct. It has been a monumental waste of human life, enabled by a false narrative and "magical thinking", to quote the WSJ, that you and U2S still believe in.

Are people like Mearsheimer, Jeffrey Sachs, MacGregor also propagandists? They are the leading experts in their field, and their assessment of the Ukraine crisis is similar to mine. The reason one could qualify that assessment as propaganda is because it is a fairly unpopular position that elicits a lot of hostility.

Funnily enough, I disagree about Israel/Palestine with guys who agreed with me about Ukraine, and find myself in agreement on that issue with posters who disagree with me about Ukraine.

---

From a discussion standpoint and a political standpoint, this is something that fascinates me about the Israel/Palestine conflict: Who is taking what side (and I will include the media coverage)?

What is "right wing"? What is "left wing"? It's a total shake up! Okay, if you are Arab, Islamic or Palestinian, you are more likely to take one side; if you are Jewish, most likely you are on the other side. But what about the vast majority of us who are none of those things?

One thing that cracks me up (in sort of a dark humor kind of way) are the "progressives" who are clearly on the side of the Palestinians (maybe even justifying Hamas as the end justifies the means) and then they find themselves in bed (so to speak) with radical Islam and their attitudes towards women and gay people. LOL! (again, in a dark humor way, because this ain't all that funny) Have they really thought this through?

Big C said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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Frankly, you appear to have an immensely closed mind. You may be right about the churches, I don't know. I don't know because you are so biased and so closed minded that it becomes pointless to chase these things down and present the evidence to you; we can pretty much predict that you will never concede anything favorable to Israel and will instead have a Pavlovian "Its propaganda!" response. Hell, you didn't even believe the video which literally showed the hospital being hit by the terrorist's flawed rocket (and probably still don't).

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I'm glad more people are figuring this out about Cal88. He complains constantly about American/Western/Israeli propaganda but is basically a propagandist himself. Anything that doesn't fit his preferred view is simply jettisoned.

It's why I stopped paying attention to his Ukraine takes a while ago, and why even though I happen to be sympathetic to his pro-Palestinian view in this case I also don't take his evidence seriously here. He just wants to serve an agenda.

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We certainly disagree about Ukraine, but my analysis and predictions on that conflict turned out to be correct. It has been a monumental waste of human life, enabled by a false narrative and "magical thinking", to quote the WSJ, that you and U2S still believe in.

Are people like Mearsheimer, Jeffrey Sachs, MacGregor also propagandists? They are the leading experts in their field, and their assessment of the Ukraine crisis is similar to mine. The reason one could qualify that assessment as propaganda is because it is a fairly unpopular position that elicits a lot of hostility.

Funnily enough, I disagree about Israel/Palestine with guys who agreed with me about Ukraine, and find myself in agreement on that issue with posters who disagree with me about Ukraine.

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From a discussion standpoint and a political standpoint, this is something that fascinates me about the Israel/Palestine conflict: Who is taking what side (and I will include the media coverage)?

What is "right wing"? What is "left wing"? It's a total shake up! Okay, if you are Arab, Islamic or Palestinian, you are more likely to take one side; if you are Jewish, most likely you are on the other side. But what about the vast majority of us who are none of those things?

One thing that cracks me up (in sort of a dark humor kind of way) are the "progressives" who are clearly on the side of the Palestinians (maybe even justifying Hamas as the end justifies the means) and then they find themselves in bed (so to speak) with radical Islam and their attitudes towards women and gay people. LOL! (again, in a dark humor way, because this ain't all that funny) Have they really thought this through?

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Yes, who is on what side and why? Why do Americans feel compelled to take a side on this issue. Groups fight around the world all the time. Sometimes there are clear bad guys and sometimes it is more complicated. Most of the time Americans ignore it all. Yet when it comes to this issue, Americans feel compelled to pick a side and post page after page after page.

America should get out of the Middle East. I'll make an allowance for the Kurds who have been good allies and, to my knowledge, haven't been too bad to their neighbors.

oski003 said:

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Your positions seem to align with Putin's positions.

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Ding ding ding.

Genocide Joe said:

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dajo9 said:

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Big C said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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Frankly, you appear to have an immensely closed mind. You may be right about the churches, I don't know. I don't know because you are so biased and so closed minded that it becomes pointless to chase these things down and present the evidence to you; we can pretty much predict that you will never concede anything favorable to Israel and will instead have a Pavlovian "Its propaganda!" response. Hell, you didn't even believe the video which literally showed the hospital being hit by the terrorist's flawed rocket (and probably still don't).

---

I'm glad more people are figuring this out about Cal88. He complains constantly about American/Western/Israeli propaganda but is basically a propagandist himself. Anything that doesn't fit his preferred view is simply jettisoned.

It's why I stopped paying attention to his Ukraine takes a while ago, and why even though I happen to be sympathetic to his pro-Palestinian view in this case I also don't take his evidence seriously here. He just wants to serve an agenda.

---

We certainly disagree about Ukraine, but my analysis and predictions on that conflict turned out to be correct. It has been a monumental waste of human life, enabled by a false narrative and "magical thinking", to quote the WSJ, that you and U2S still believe in.

Are people like Mearsheimer, Jeffrey Sachs, MacGregor also propagandists? They are the leading experts in their field, and their assessment of the Ukraine crisis is similar to mine. The reason one could qualify that assessment as propaganda is because it is a fairly unpopular position that elicits a lot of hostility.

Funnily enough, I disagree about Israel/Palestine with guys who agreed with me about Ukraine, and find myself in agreement on that issue with posters who disagree with me about Ukraine.

---

From a discussion standpoint and a political standpoint, this is something that fascinates me about the Israel/Palestine conflict: Who is taking what side (and I will include the media coverage)?

What is "right wing"? What is "left wing"? It's a total shake up! Okay, if you are Arab, Islamic or Palestinian, you are more likely to take one side; if you are Jewish, most likely you are on the other side. But what about the vast majority of us who are none of those things?

One thing that cracks me up (in sort of a dark humor kind of way) are the "progressives" who are clearly on the side of the Palestinians (maybe even justifying Hamas as the end justifies the means) and then they find themselves in bed (so to speak) with radical Islam and their attitudes towards women and gay people. LOL! (again, in a dark humor way, because this ain't all that funny) Have they really thought this through?

---

Yes, who is on what side and why? Why do Americans feel compelled to take a side on this issue. Groups fight around the world all the time. Sometimes there are clear bad guys and sometimes it is more complicated. Most of the time Americans ignore it all. Yet when it comes to this issue, Americans feel compelled to pick a side and post page after page after page.

America should get out of the Middle East. I'll make an allowance for the Kurds who have been good allies and, to my knowledge, haven't been too bad to their neighbors.

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You didn't seem so shy about wanting to take sides in a dispute between Ukraine and Russia, but please, continue with your hypocrisy.

The situation in the Middle East is pretty easy to understand. I oppose ethnic cleansing and I oppose it even more when it's supported and encouraged by my government. That so many people have tried to whitewash what is going on there by pointing out other ethnic cleansings ignores the fact that this one is directly supported by our government, with weapons, foreign aid, and with statements from U.S. public officials. You're damn ****ing right I'm taking sides when my own government is choosing the side of ethnic cleansing.

The only good thing that can be said about it is that it is making Biden's re-election even less likely.

Fully 70% of those 18 to 34 disapprove of Biden's handling of the Israel-Hamas war in a new ⁦@NBCNews survey.⁩ “This poll is a stunner and it’s stunning because of the impact the Israel-Hamas war is having on Biden." ⁦@mmurraypolitics⁩ https://t.co/1aUj3xRWMf

— Peter Baker (@peterbakernyt) November 19, 2023

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Putin, who is dead, began a program of meddling in our affairs in order to fracture us, so yes, I support efforts to weaken the regime he began.