Cal88 said:

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Must watch. He nails it. All of it. https://t.co/7H1o24FyYo

— Kim Iversen (@KimIversenShow) October 15, 2023

2/2 pic.twitter.com/ThPWoqvEBx

— Moussa (@moussawss) October 15, 2023

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dimitrig said:

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sycasey said:

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BearGoggles said:

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sycasey said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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sycasey said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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sycasey said:

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BearGoggles said:

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sycasey said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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concordtom said:

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Israel is telling people to evacuate so they can bomb their buildings?

In the US, if someone sneaks onto your property to steal your stuff, or light it on fire, are we allowed to shoot them to stop them?

…Even if 1.1M flee, what about all their stuff? And I mean, forget washers and dryers, I'm talking about photo albums, family bibles (equivalent thereof), paintings and other stuff they won't be able to carry with them.

This is absurd!!

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Simple solution. Don't elect or otherwise allow yourself to be ruled by terrorists.

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Once the terrorist group is in charge, I'm not sure that is a simple solution anymore. Half of people in Gaza right now were not even born when Hamas first won their one election.

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What is your proposed solution for removing Hamas from power or even causing them to hold a real election? There is only one scenario I can see Hamas losing power and it is about to happen. But I'm open to any ideas you or others present.

Or is your solution to just leave Hamas in place indefinitely? On what basis would any country accept that from its neighbor? The US traveled to the other end of the globe to chase Al Queda.

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The US and its aggressive military response to Al Qaeda was a mistake and an unwinnable mission. Killing Osama Bin Laden was possible (and justified). Eliminating Al Qaeda was not, because they are a large, decentralized terrorist organization and killing one leader just means a few more pop up in different places, and the increasing military commitment just leads to more civilian deaths and more fomented discontent in the region (therefore more ripe recruiting targets).

Hamas is similar. The more force you apply, the more popularity they gain among the civilian population caught in the crossfire. So while it may sound trite, the best way to fight them is to defend your own borders and within them actually live up to your higher values. That means sticking to agreements, negotiating in good faith with non-terrorist Palestinian leaders, supporting freedom and liberal democracy, etc. IMO Israel has fallen away from these values during the Netanyahu era and needs to return to them.

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You pivoted there between paragraphs 1 and 2 in an expected way.

Hamas is semi-similar. They are a governing entity for a country. They can be militarily defeated and removed from power. And it is also true that doing so - especially with the killing of Palestinian civilians - may mean more people join their ideological ranks. Isn't that great for the terrorists? They've got the perfect scenario. As long as they are willing to die and sacrifice innocent countrymen they put Israel in a no win situation.

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Well then, my question is this: Does Israel have a PLAN for what will happen once Hamas is removed from power? Right now, it doesn't seem like they do. If there isn't one then another Hamas will just emerge.

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First, apologies for a typo. I meant to say UNexpected pivot.

To your question…who knows? A guess would be they are focused on eliminating Hamas and don't have a master plan. Who knows if Israel even thinks it's their place to impose a political solution on Gaza? Their rights should end at the point of ensuring their state security. Could we hope for a Palestinian Authority return?

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Again, given that Hamas is an organization without a singular figurehead leader to be taken out, then I don't see how you eliminate Hamas unless you're ready to occupy long-term. Kill the current leaders and more will show up. I'm not sure Israel actually wants to do that.

Which is why the current action just feels like vengeance to me, not an attempt at a lasting solution.

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Hamas does have leadership - mostly in Quatar. Certainly they have leaders in Gaza.

But you're missing the larger point. Hamas can be deposed. Just like with ISIL and for that matter Al Queda. You won't eliminate the ideology, but you attempt to eliminate the ability to attack you.

There is no guarantee the Israelis will be successful. There's a significant risk that what follows Hamas will be chaos or even worse. But what is clear is that there will be no peace with Hamas in power like they currently are. And there in only one way to remove Hamas - by force.

It speaks volumes that so many people here are criticizing the morality of Israel's actions and some are suggesting that Hamas is justified in what it did due to "colonialism". None of you said word one when the US and its allies carpet bombed Mosul and may other cities to defeat ISIL, killing many civilians. Or when Asaad slaughtered Palestinians.

https://theintercept.com/2021/11/18/isis-syria-us-airstrikes-civilians-killed/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/12/us/civilian-deaths-war-isis.html

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/13/1072735380/journalist-says-u-s-air-war-against-isis-killed-countless-civilians-in-syria

In fact, most of you said nothing about the innocent people killed by ISIS, Hamas, Russia, Ukraine, Syria, and Iran, which included innumerable women and children

No country with the means to defend itself would do anything different than what Israel is doing and about to do.

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Israel's attempt to "remove" Hamas seems similar to the US attempting to hold Al-Qaeda out of leadership in Afghanistan (too difficult and not gonna happen), or to the US actually removing Saddam Hussein from power (then leaving a leadership void and an even bigger mess behind him). Maybe they'll do better but I am very skeptical.

I have been very critical of Assad here and also US foreign policy in various ways. I am under no illusion that Israel is the only bad actor in the region. But I also have a lot of criticism of Israel's policies towards Palestine (especially in the Netanyahu era) and will not refrain from voicing them just because others are also bad.

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The arguments for supporting Israel's actions consist of specious claims of antisemitism, comparisons with neighboring countries run by ghouls, and unsubstantiated accusations that their critics were silent on other humanitarian catastrophes such as the ill-advised invasion of Iraq.

The reality is that we hold Israel to a higher standard than freaking Syria, Egypt, and Afghanistan - and we should. Israel is making a grave miscalculation here. Violence won't solve any problems, especially when Jews are greatly outnumbered.

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dimitrig said:

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The arguments for supporting Israel's actions consist of specious claims of antisemitism, comparisons with neighboring countries run by ghouls, and unsubstantiated accusations that their critics were silent on other humanitarian catastrophes such as the ill-advised invasion of Iraq.

The reality is that we hold Israel to a higher standard than freaking Syria, Egypt, and Afghanistan - and we should. Israel is making a grave miscalculation here. Violence won't solve any problems, especially when Jews are greatly outnumbered.

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tequila4kapp said:

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dimitrig said:

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The arguments for supporting Israel's actions consist of specious claims of antisemitism, comparisons with neighboring countries run by ghouls, and unsubstantiated accusations that their critics were silent on other humanitarian catastrophes such as the ill-advised invasion of Iraq.

The reality is that we hold Israel to a higher standard than freaking Syria, Egypt, and Afghanistan - and we should. Israel is making a grave miscalculation here. Violence won't solve any problems, especially when Jews are greatly outnumbered.

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The bolded would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

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dimitrig said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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dimitrig said:

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The arguments for supporting Israel's actions consist of specious claims of antisemitism, comparisons with neighboring countries run by ghouls, and unsubstantiated accusations that their critics were silent on other humanitarian catastrophes such as the ill-advised invasion of Iraq.

The reality is that we hold Israel to a higher standard than freaking Syria, Egypt, and Afghanistan - and we should. Israel is making a grave miscalculation here. Violence won't solve any problems, especially when Jews are greatly outnumbered.

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The bolded would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

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My grandfather was rounded up by the Nazis because he was Jewish. That self-loathing must be what fuels my antisemitism.

Get outta here with that BS.

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Unit2Sucks said:

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Hamas is by far the biggest threat to Palestinians in Gaza. Gaza receives billions in international aid yet they have no food and water. Anyone wonder why that is?

Hamas can build miles of tunnels but can't dig wells?

Hamas can buy a shocking amount of weapons (it wasn't all donated by Iran and Russia) but can't afford to feed anyone?

I don't agree with the way Netanyahu is running Israel and the creeping religious extremism there is problematic to me, but a lot of the claims about how bad Gaza is fall at the feet of Hamas, Iran and others. They won't let Palestinians have any taste of happiness because it's bad for their business.

Just a reminder to beware of disinformation. There has been lots of it - from people pretending pictures of children gassed by Assad (which pro-Putin shills pretend never happened) were killed by Israel to pictures of missile strikes which happened years ago in other countries - we need to be very careful assessing the credibility of random reports.

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Israeli Defense Intelligence Chief Amos Yadlin in 2007: “Israel would be happy if Hamas took over Gaza because IDF could then deal with Gaza as a hostile state”, going on to downplay significance of Iran in Gaza “as long as they don't have a port."
Link: https://t.co/onKtDrFNJk pic.twitter.com/9LOjLUiSf2

— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) October 16, 2023

Israeli minister seeks to imprison citizens who 'harm national morale' https://t.co/3nfC3OWma8

— Haaretz.com (@haaretzcom) October 15, 2023

going4roses said:

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Why doesn't hamas want them to leave ?

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movielover said:

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You wrote: "until maybe some day someone destroys Israel which puts some of us in the camp of being on the same team as Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas."

It sounds like you think destroying the only Jewish state is a viable alternative.

Sisi doesn't want to import this problem. I believe he is well regarded by Egyptian citizens.

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It’s 2am in Palestine and sweet kids whose bodies have obliterated by Israel continue to roll into the hospital. ⁣
pic.twitter.com/j5zYg7kQ1E

— BAY AREA STATE OF MIND (@YayAreaNews) October 16, 2023

KPG said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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KPG said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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Bin Laden is related to Saudis. What are you talking about?

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I am talking about Bin Laden's 2002 "Letter to America" in which he justifies the collective punishment of America for the sins and crimes of our government and military, and I reject his logic just as I reject justifying attacks on Palestinians for the sins of Hamas.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

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Look, Hamas knew what was going to happen by doing what they did. Everybody knows this was likely Iran and probably China encouraging this to break up the Israel/Saudi alliance that was set to happen. There was a lot of money at stake over breaking up that partnership and the Hamas psychos were all too ready to do it. The outside influences don't care about the repercussions. But any country worth their salt would have to respond like Israel did. Having said that..I continue to say the US shouldn't be involved at all. But now it looks like the Biden Admin is about to send 2500 us marines into israel...just stupidity after stupidity of this Biden regime.

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Any country worth their salt would respond like Israel did? By stacking war crimes on top of war crimes? By killing over a thousand children and counting? Bombing schools, hospitals, journalists? Creating over 1 million refugees and forcing them to flee within 24 hours, and then bombing the fleeing caravans on the roads you explicitly labeled as evacuation routes? By cutting off electricity, water, and internet for over a week now to an entire civilian population that you occupy and have complete land, air, and sea blockade over? By dropping white phosphorous in a populated civilian area?

The international community is largely aghast at these actions because they run counter to international norms, international law, and are considered international war crimes. If international laws are only to be applied to less powerful countries and can be broken when more powerful countries get upset enough, than they are completely useless, and we will only see a proliferation of attacks that also run counter to international laws, as Hamas' attack on Israeli civilians was. I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy.

'Countries worth a salt' that commit war crimes but then expect those they commit them against to play nicely in return may have the best interests of empires, war lords, oligarchs, oil barons, the military industrial complex, and shareholders invested in death, destruction, and natural resources extraction in mind, but I promise you they DO NOT have my best interests in mind, and unless you fall into one of the above categories, I'm willing to bet they don't have your best interests in mind either.

Now that we've been complicit in complete physical and psychology torture of a caged populace, I hope there aren't millions of young Palestinians that think just like you, that will grow up seeking revenge for war crimes and indignities committed against them, and justify it by saying 'Look, Israel and the US knew what was going to happen by doing what they did'...

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I was recently booked & repeatedly confirmed on a major network. Day of, I was asked to summarize what I planned to say. When I obliged (US shouldn’t support war crimes, we need a cease fire, Palestinians need freedom, etc.), the producer said they could no longer squeeze me in. https://t.co/adhXqQvAqk

— Omar Baddar عمر بدّار (@OmarBaddar) October 16, 2023

tequila4kapp said:

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KPG said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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Yeah if you attack unarmed civilians than you can expect collateral damage in retaliation...that's war dude. Israelis went beyond to warn people to leave the area before they began to bomb. Those people at the music festival never got that warning. The international community was immediately calling for restraint from Israel lol that was a joke. Being less powerful doesn't give you carte blanche to invade another nation and slaughter farming villages full of unarmed people. You're whole post is some idealistic bs that's not reflective of the real world.

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Palestine isn't "less powerful", it's an occupied territory, it has no power, it has no ability to wage anything remotely resembling a conventional war. There's nothing idealistic about not wanting to live in a world of tit for tat war crimes or to live in a nation that supports and perpetuates the oppression, apartheid, and war crimes against a population.

Do you even believe that peace is feasible with the path forward of perpetual war crimes against civilians? If so, that's more idealistic and fantastical than my worldview. If not, how do you see this unfolding in a 10-20 year span? I'm truly curious.

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The better question is Do you believe that peace is feasible with the path forward of Palestinian's and neighboring Arab's perpetual refusal to accept a 2 state solution and Israel's right to exist?

Because Israel's existence is the root cause of the violence. So you can either remove the root cause (The Iran, Hezbellah, Hamas path) or you can accept their right to exist and compromise to have your own nation. Until one of those 2 things happen the cycle of violence never ends, IMO. [I suppose a 3rd path of a single state with proportional representation is a theoretical option but not really for obvious reasons].

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tequila4kapp said:

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Cal88 said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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KPG said:

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Do you even believe that peace is feasible with the path forward of perpetual war crimes against civilians? If so, that's more idealistic and fantastical than my worldview. If not, how do you see this unfolding in a 10-20 year span? I'm truly curious.

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The better question is Do you believe that peace is feasible with the path forward of Palestinian's and neighboring Arab's perpetual refusal to accept a 2 state solution and Israel's right to exist?

Because Israel's existence is the root cause of the violence. So you can either remove the root cause (The Iran, Hezbellah, Hamas path) or you can accept their right to exist and compromise to have your own nation. Until one of those 2 things happen the cycle of violence never ends, IMO. [I suppose a 3rd path of a single state with proportional representation is a theoretical option but not really for obvious reasons].

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It's the other way around, pretty much all Arab states and Iran, as well as the great majority of Palestinians are for a 2 state solution with Gaza and the West Bank as Palestine, along the 1967 borders. Israel has been opposed to the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank ever since the assassination of Rabin, continuing land seizures and colonization in the WB, and even designing their land grabs, road and wall construction to hinder the creation of a viable Palestinian state.

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Clearly it could have happened and I just am not aware of it but I choke I on this idea that Iran is in favor of a 2 state solution. Every public statement from them calls for the literal elimination of Israel from the face of the map, if not also the killing of all Jews. They provide weapons to 2 terrorist organizations who have a literal mission statement of killing Jews and eliminating Israel. I'm trying not to be rude but that statement seems farcically and obviously false.

I'll claim ignorance on the qualifier "ever since the assassination of Rabin". But note the Oslo accords offered Palestinians (pre assasination) everything you say they'd accept. They never came close to accepting (even Bill Clinton says Arafat only said No and never offered a counter proposal). And of course Palestinians have had at least 4 other opportunities to accept 2 state solutions even earlier.

Most Palestinian-centric sources I read talk about the core problems of right to return and self determination, and how 2 state solutions are unacceptable because they fail to address those issues. It is impossible for Palestinians to live on the same land as Israel, to have the right of self determination AND for Israel to exist as a Jewish state. Thus, those 2 issues seem to equate to eliminating Israel to me (either 5th column stuff or explicitly that Israel's existence is contrary in purpose to a land where Palestinians live in large numbers).

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