If I was Ukraine I'd wonder where all the Euros are. Seeing as they want to be part of the EU.dimitrig said:dajo9 said:Slava Palestini said:Getting hired in the Biden Administration, appearing on CNN and MSNBC, and writing for the New York Times and Washington Post.dajo9 said:
Nobody admits to being in favor of starting the Iraq War anymore. But we all know it was the majority of the country. What are those people doing today?
Voting for Republicans and supporting more bloodshed
Except in Ukraine where they think Ukraine should surrender already.
The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread
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2627 Replies |
Last: 21 hrs ago by Edited by Staff
dimitrig said:Big C said:dimitrig said:tequila4kapp said:Clearly it could have happened and I just am not aware of it but I choke I on this idea that Iran is in favor of a 2 state solution. Every public statement from them calls for the literal elimination of Israel from the face of the map, if not also the killing of all Jews. They provide weapons to 2 terrorist organizations who have a literal mission statement of killing Jews and eliminating Israel. I'm trying not to be rude but that statement seems farcically and obviously false.Cal88 said:It's the other way around, pretty much all Arab states and Iran, as well as the great majority of Palestinians are for a 2 state solution with Gaza and the West Bank as Palestine, along the 1967 borders. Israel has been opposed to the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank ever since the assassination of Rabin, continuing land seizures and colonization in the WB, and even designing their land grabs, road and wall construction to hinder the creation of a viable Palestinian state.tequila4kapp said:The better question is Do you believe that peace is feasible with the path forward of Palestinian's and neighboring Arab's perpetual refusal to accept a 2 state solution and Israel's right to exist?KPG said:
Do you even believe that peace is feasible with the path forward of perpetual war crimes against civilians? If so, that's more idealistic and fantastical than my worldview. If not, how do you see this unfolding in a 10-20 year span? I'm truly curious.
Because Israel's existence is the root cause of the violence. So you can either remove the root cause (The Iran, Hezbellah, Hamas path) or you can accept their right to exist and compromise to have your own nation. Until one of those 2 things happen the cycle of violence never ends, IMO. [I suppose a 3rd path of a single state with proportional representation is a theoretical option but not really for obvious reasons].
I'll claim ignorance on the qualifier "ever since the assassination of Rabin". But note the Oslo accords offered Palestinians (pre assasination) everything you say they'd accept. They never came close to accepting (even Bill Clinton says Arafat only said No and never offered a counter proposal). And of course Palestinians have had at least 4 other opportunities to accept 2 state solutions even earlier.
Most Palestinian-centric sources I read talk about the core problems of right to return and self determination, and how 2 state solutions are unacceptable because they fail to address those issues. It is impossible for Palestinians to live on the same land as Israel, to have the right of self determination AND for Israel to exist as a Jewish state. Thus, those 2 issues seem to equate to eliminating Israel to me (either 5th column stuff or explicitly that Israel's existence is contrary in purpose to a land where Palestinians live in large numbers).
I would be a lot more supportive of Israel if they attacked Iran as a result of this act of terrorism in the same way the US attacked Iraq. It wasn't the right thing for the US to do since Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 but if people agree that all this terrorism is being sponsored by Iran then Israel should have at them instead of bullying 2 million unarmed Palestinian civilians. Maybe they can form a coalition of countries including Saudi Arabia, the US, and others to go depose the clerics in Iran and bring it back into the modern world.
I am not the least bit supportive of anything that keeps this from being contained to Israel/Palestine.
If Iran is the enemy then attack Iran. Attacking Gaza is something a bully does.
Attack Hamas and make every effort to spare innocent Palestinians. But I really don't want to this to spread to Iran and elsewhere. If you do, okay, but we can agree to disagree.
What is one of the main goals when a fire breaks out? Keep it from spreading.
People over there have been fighting for centuries. That's unfortunate, but there's a limit to what we can do about it. Make a reasonable effort and, after that, try and keep it contained.
wifeisafurd said:Maybe the adults in the room are waiting for the evidence on who blew up the hospital, or is that so 2001? You're so blinded by your ideology you didn't even notice that there is a dispute as to whose missile hit the hospital. I might add the NYT withdrew its lead in about 2 hours, and now has a very different discussion of events as the US is reviewing Israel evidence that shows where the missile came from. But you, just double down. How Trump of you.KPG said:The old "Love it or leave it" schtick, is it 2001 or 2023?wifeisafurd said:It is a big bad world out there, but only the most clueless don't understand there always is retaliation. The aim of massive retaliation is to deter being attacked again. You can argue history and pick your time over the last 5,000 years that should matter, but you are where you are, and Israel has no real other options. For such a strategy to work, it must be made public knowledge to all possible aggressors (destruction of Gaza is for the eyes of other enemies and terror groups). The aggressor also must believe that the state announcing the policy has the ability to maintain multiple-strike capability. Hamas obviously knew that, and it is the legitimately elected representatives of the people in Gaza, so this was an attack by a government actor, not just a random group, and the dancing in the streets all over Gaza meant we approve and bring it on. Israel didn't just say we will be tit for tat, they declared war against a territory, and like the US and its allies in other wars, this war is aimed at regime change.KPG said:
Israel just bombed a hospital in Gaza City, and the AP is reporting over 500 were killed in the bombing, while other sources show over 1,000.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c
Hundreds of sick, injured, elderly refugees killed in an attack on a hospital. There is no moral equivocation or justification of this act. This has no place in modern society, and this will bring the region and us closer to war.
The Prime Minister of Israel is using dehumanization and broad othering language to differentiate Israel from "its enemies", tweeting out: "This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle". This language, reminiscent of the First Epistle to the Thessalonians of the New Testament, has been used to justify anti-Semitic attacks against Jews throughout ancient and contemporary history. This is the language you use to justify genocide, to justify racial and religious superiority and persecution. This language has no business coming from the Prime Minister of a Jewish state, and this language does not make me feel safer as a Jew.
If you value peace, your interests are not protected by the current far-right Israeli regime, and the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can tack towards peace.
The U.S. response to 9/11 included the American invasion of Afghanistan in league with the so-called Northern Alliance. Officially around 70,000K civilians lost their lives (probably more the 100K since counts in those regions historically are under measured). The rules of engagement for air strikes were amazingly relaxed resulting in bombing of civilian areas. The CIA armed and funded Afghan militia groups who have been implicated in grave human rights abuses and killings of civilians with the CIA's knowledge. The war has exacerbated the effects of poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to health care, and environmental degradation on Afghans' health. The immediate goals were to force the Taliban from power and destroy al-Qaida.
When Japanese bombed Peal Harbor, the US engaged in war with Japan. It was known policy that the allies would not take Japanese prisoners, which was completely buried by the US media. We dropped two atomic bombs on cites, and fire bombed many other Japanese cities. The civilian death toll in Japan was probably around 900,000 lives just from the bombings and you can add another 100,000 plus died from the atomic bombs.
Your continuous holy than thou act on moral equivocation and justification is wearing a little thin. As a Jew, you might want to take on judgment of the German Nazi experience. Like Hamas, the Nazi party advocating clear messages tailored to a broad range of people and their problems. Germany's standard of living was in a free fall due to sanctions placed on its economy by the World War 1 allies. The economic failure and a decline in living standards was associated with the Weimar democracy imposed by the Allies. By 1932, Germany had reached breaking point. The economic crisis and limits placed on the German economy, in turn led to widespread social and political unrest in Germany, and meant that Germany could no longer afford to pay reparations. Germany suffered the tyranny of the winning military power of France, England, the US, etc. The Nazi's took advantage poverty, unemployment, malnutrition, unrest, and all the other things that are in Gaza to win an election when Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing those who opposed him such as communists and socialists), and to eliminate the influence of Jewish. Just like Hamas, Hitler began dismantling democratic institutions and imprisoning or murdering his chief opponents. Just like Hamas. He then forced Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudetenland, where Germans lived in an occupied territory and were subject to [inset your wording on the "innocents" of Gaza under Israeli control} Next was atrocities committed against Jews Any of this sounding familiar? So yes, the world waited and waited like you want to do.
Wars that are based on revenge can be effective in punishing an enemy and for other reasons such as regime change, but they can also create a power vacuum that sparks a long, deadly conflict that fails to deliver sustainable stability. Europe and Japan became allies due to how the post-war was handled, to wit: put the areas under military control (thereby depriving the population of rights for some time), and ultimately to help rebuild.
The only successful conflict against a terrorist group in the past two decades, against the Islamic State group between 2014 and 2017, ended with both Raqqa in Syria and Mosul reduced to rubble and thousands of men, women, and children consigned to detention camps. There are people in speak in platitudes and outrage and accomplish nothing, and those that make the hard often necessary decisions. Israel with the support of the western world and other allies (and with winks from other neighbors such as the Egypt) is making what it thinks is the only decision it has (partly due to Israel's policies), and the consequences will be devastating to the civilian population, if Israel really intends to take out Hamas. The Gaza leadership, which is Hamas, didn't agree to an ethical fight. If you put in Hamas fighters behind humans shields, in Mosques, in schools, in hospitals, etc. you should expect casualties. But as they say on the school yard and in the UN, they are getting what they asked for.
In another post you said you pontificated " I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy." That is a tough one: have you thought about moving to say Switzerland?
I'm well versed in the history of the Holocaust. If you truly believe that Hamas and the blockaded, impoverished, ~2 million Palestinians living in squalor in a 140 square mile strip of land without a navy, without an air force, without ports, without a hope for a future represent the same existential threat to Jews as the 65 million Germans in a country ripe with natural resources spanning over180,999 square miles then I truly don't think any words I type will change your opinion of anything, you live in a world of pure imagination.
You posit that I'm clueless, holier than thou, and speak in platitudes while accomplishing nothing, and paint yourself as the pragmatist making hard choices, and go on to assert the necessity of bombing hospitals, dropping atomic bombs, and murdering civilians, while footnoting that the death and destruction is necessary "(partly due to Israel's policies)".
So pragmatism is waking up, putting on your big-boy pants, and bombing hospitals and killing civilians, while us wacky, clueless, holier than thou people pontificate about something as crazy as... changing those policies. Got it.
(edited to move my comment out of the quote text)
But yea, you don't seem to mind being a shill for Hamas and announcing what your county must be like, while ignoring the decisions your country made. Maybe I should add hypocrite to the list of words. Also, lose the term big boy pants - it is so 2010. As far as getting it, your idealism is overruling your common sense.
Move the goal posts, deflect from the topic we were discussing and pivot to a new one, and add in more personal attacks. Boring. Not worth a real reply.
Thanks to others who engage in good faith and have independent thoughts worth sharing. This thread is mostly very compelling and I appreciate actual intellectual pushback from those who help sharpen my own thinking.
The post that triggered my response was all about the bombing of a hospital, where you used an article that indicated both sides blamed each other to dump accusations on Israel of massive atrocities and then renewed your allegations again in a response post. Your view of the goal posts and deflection and refusal to engage may be good excuses to cover up your actions, and claiming good faith suggests you think we are fools.. Seems like pushback of telling you to wait until the facts come out might sharpen up that thinking, but go ahead, act self-righteous. By the way, please actually don't reply.KPG said:wifeisafurd said:Maybe the adults in the room are waiting for the evidence on who blew up the hospital, or is that so 2001? You're so blinded by your ideology you didn't even notice that there is a dispute as to whose missile hit the hospital. I might add the NYT withdrew its lead in about 2 hours, and now has a very different discussion of events as the US is reviewing Israel evidence that shows where the missile came from. But you, just double down. How Trump of you.KPG said:The old "Love it or leave it" schtick, is it 2001 or 2023?wifeisafurd said:It is a big bad world out there, but only the most clueless don't understand there always is retaliation. The aim of massive retaliation is to deter being attacked again. You can argue history and pick your time over the last 5,000 years that should matter, but you are where you are, and Israel has no real other options. For such a strategy to work, it must be made public knowledge to all possible aggressors (destruction of Gaza is for the eyes of other enemies and terror groups). The aggressor also must believe that the state announcing the policy has the ability to maintain multiple-strike capability. Hamas obviously knew that, and it is the legitimately elected representatives of the people in Gaza, so this was an attack by a government actor, not just a random group, and the dancing in the streets all over Gaza meant we approve and bring it on. Israel didn't just say we will be tit for tat, they declared war against a territory, and like the US and its allies in other wars, this war is aimed at regime change.KPG said:
Israel just bombed a hospital in Gaza City, and the AP is reporting over 500 were killed in the bombing, while other sources show over 1,000.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c
Hundreds of sick, injured, elderly refugees killed in an attack on a hospital. There is no moral equivocation or justification of this act. This has no place in modern society, and this will bring the region and us closer to war.
The Prime Minister of Israel is using dehumanization and broad othering language to differentiate Israel from "its enemies", tweeting out: "This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle". This language, reminiscent of the First Epistle to the Thessalonians of the New Testament, has been used to justify anti-Semitic attacks against Jews throughout ancient and contemporary history. This is the language you use to justify genocide, to justify racial and religious superiority and persecution. This language has no business coming from the Prime Minister of a Jewish state, and this language does not make me feel safer as a Jew.
If you value peace, your interests are not protected by the current far-right Israeli regime, and the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can tack towards peace.
The U.S. response to 9/11 included the American invasion of Afghanistan in league with the so-called Northern Alliance. Officially around 70,000K civilians lost their lives (probably more the 100K since counts in those regions historically are under measured). The rules of engagement for air strikes were amazingly relaxed resulting in bombing of civilian areas. The CIA armed and funded Afghan militia groups who have been implicated in grave human rights abuses and killings of civilians with the CIA's knowledge. The war has exacerbated the effects of poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to health care, and environmental degradation on Afghans' health. The immediate goals were to force the Taliban from power and destroy al-Qaida.
When Japanese bombed Peal Harbor, the US engaged in war with Japan. It was known policy that the allies would not take Japanese prisoners, which was completely buried by the US media. We dropped two atomic bombs on cites, and fire bombed many other Japanese cities. The civilian death toll in Japan was probably around 900,000 lives just from the bombings and you can add another 100,000 plus died from the atomic bombs.
Your continuous holy than thou act on moral equivocation and justification is wearing a little thin. As a Jew, you might want to take on judgment of the German Nazi experience. Like Hamas, the Nazi party advocating clear messages tailored to a broad range of people and their problems. Germany's standard of living was in a free fall due to sanctions placed on its economy by the World War 1 allies. The economic failure and a decline in living standards was associated with the Weimar democracy imposed by the Allies. By 1932, Germany had reached breaking point. The economic crisis and limits placed on the German economy, in turn led to widespread social and political unrest in Germany, and meant that Germany could no longer afford to pay reparations. Germany suffered the tyranny of the winning military power of France, England, the US, etc. The Nazi's took advantage poverty, unemployment, malnutrition, unrest, and all the other things that are in Gaza to win an election when Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing those who opposed him such as communists and socialists), and to eliminate the influence of Jewish. Just like Hamas, Hitler began dismantling democratic institutions and imprisoning or murdering his chief opponents. Just like Hamas. He then forced Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudetenland, where Germans lived in an occupied territory and were subject to [inset your wording on the "innocents" of Gaza under Israeli control} Next was atrocities committed against Jews Any of this sounding familiar? So yes, the world waited and waited like you want to do.
Wars that are based on revenge can be effective in punishing an enemy and for other reasons such as regime change, but they can also create a power vacuum that sparks a long, deadly conflict that fails to deliver sustainable stability. Europe and Japan became allies due to how the post-war was handled, to wit: put the areas under military control (thereby depriving the population of rights for some time), and ultimately to help rebuild.
The only successful conflict against a terrorist group in the past two decades, against the Islamic State group between 2014 and 2017, ended with both Raqqa in Syria and Mosul reduced to rubble and thousands of men, women, and children consigned to detention camps. There are people in speak in platitudes and outrage and accomplish nothing, and those that make the hard often necessary decisions. Israel with the support of the western world and other allies (and with winks from other neighbors such as the Egypt) is making what it thinks is the only decision it has (partly due to Israel's policies), and the consequences will be devastating to the civilian population, if Israel really intends to take out Hamas. The Gaza leadership, which is Hamas, didn't agree to an ethical fight. If you put in Hamas fighters behind humans shields, in Mosques, in schools, in hospitals, etc. you should expect casualties. But as they say on the school yard and in the UN, they are getting what they asked for.
In another post you said you pontificated " I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy." That is a tough one: have you thought about moving to say Switzerland?
I'm well versed in the history of the Holocaust. If you truly believe that Hamas and the blockaded, impoverished, ~2 million Palestinians living in squalor in a 140 square mile strip of land without a navy, without an air force, without ports, without a hope for a future represent the same existential threat to Jews as the 65 million Germans in a country ripe with natural resources spanning over180,999 square miles then I truly don't think any words I type will change your opinion of anything, you live in a world of pure imagination.
You posit that I'm clueless, holier than thou, and speak in platitudes while accomplishing nothing, and paint yourself as the pragmatist making hard choices, and go on to assert the necessity of bombing hospitals, dropping atomic bombs, and murdering civilians, while footnoting that the death and destruction is necessary "(partly due to Israel's policies)".
So pragmatism is waking up, putting on your big-boy pants, and bombing hospitals and killing civilians, while us wacky, clueless, holier than thou people pontificate about something as crazy as... changing those policies. Got it.
(edited to move my comment out of the quote text)
But yea, you don't seem to mind being a shill for Hamas and announcing what your county must be like, while ignoring the decisions your country made. Maybe I should add hypocrite to the list of words. Also, lose the term big boy pants - it is so 2010. As far as getting it, your idealism is overruling your common sense.
Move the goal posts, deflect from the topic we were discussing and pivot to a new one, and add in more personal attacks. Boring. Not worth a real reply.
Thanks to others who engage in good faith and have independent thoughts worth sharing. This thread is mostly very compelling and I appreciate actual intellectual pushback from those who help sharpen my own thinking.
It is not moving the goalposts to point out that you made an unqualified claim (Israel bombed a hospital) and based on basically no information other than a very preliminary DISPTUED claim. And then you want to just gloss over that. You think that's good faith?KPG said:wifeisafurd said:Maybe the adults in the room are waiting for the evidence on who blew up the hospital, or is that so 2001? You're so blinded by your ideology you didn't even notice that there is a dispute as to whose missile hit the hospital. I might add the NYT withdrew its lead in about 2 hours, and now has a very different discussion of events as the US is reviewing Israel evidence that shows where the missile came from. But you, just double down. How Trump of you.KPG said:The old "Love it or leave it" schtick, is it 2001 or 2023?wifeisafurd said:It is a big bad world out there, but only the most clueless don't understand there always is retaliation. The aim of massive retaliation is to deter being attacked again. You can argue history and pick your time over the last 5,000 years that should matter, but you are where you are, and Israel has no real other options. For such a strategy to work, it must be made public knowledge to all possible aggressors (destruction of Gaza is for the eyes of other enemies and terror groups). The aggressor also must believe that the state announcing the policy has the ability to maintain multiple-strike capability. Hamas obviously knew that, and it is the legitimately elected representatives of the people in Gaza, so this was an attack by a government actor, not just a random group, and the dancing in the streets all over Gaza meant we approve and bring it on. Israel didn't just say we will be tit for tat, they declared war against a territory, and like the US and its allies in other wars, this war is aimed at regime change.KPG said:
Israel just bombed a hospital in Gaza City, and the AP is reporting over 500 were killed in the bombing, while other sources show over 1,000.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c
Hundreds of sick, injured, elderly refugees killed in an attack on a hospital. There is no moral equivocation or justification of this act. This has no place in modern society, and this will bring the region and us closer to war.
The Prime Minister of Israel is using dehumanization and broad othering language to differentiate Israel from "its enemies", tweeting out: "This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle". This language, reminiscent of the First Epistle to the Thessalonians of the New Testament, has been used to justify anti-Semitic attacks against Jews throughout ancient and contemporary history. This is the language you use to justify genocide, to justify racial and religious superiority and persecution. This language has no business coming from the Prime Minister of a Jewish state, and this language does not make me feel safer as a Jew.
If you value peace, your interests are not protected by the current far-right Israeli regime, and the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can tack towards peace.
The U.S. response to 9/11 included the American invasion of Afghanistan in league with the so-called Northern Alliance. Officially around 70,000K civilians lost their lives (probably more the 100K since counts in those regions historically are under measured). The rules of engagement for air strikes were amazingly relaxed resulting in bombing of civilian areas. The CIA armed and funded Afghan militia groups who have been implicated in grave human rights abuses and killings of civilians with the CIA's knowledge. The war has exacerbated the effects of poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to health care, and environmental degradation on Afghans' health. The immediate goals were to force the Taliban from power and destroy al-Qaida.
When Japanese bombed Peal Harbor, the US engaged in war with Japan. It was known policy that the allies would not take Japanese prisoners, which was completely buried by the US media. We dropped two atomic bombs on cites, and fire bombed many other Japanese cities. The civilian death toll in Japan was probably around 900,000 lives just from the bombings and you can add another 100,000 plus died from the atomic bombs.
Your continuous holy than thou act on moral equivocation and justification is wearing a little thin. As a Jew, you might want to take on judgment of the German Nazi experience. Like Hamas, the Nazi party advocating clear messages tailored to a broad range of people and their problems. Germany's standard of living was in a free fall due to sanctions placed on its economy by the World War 1 allies. The economic failure and a decline in living standards was associated with the Weimar democracy imposed by the Allies. By 1932, Germany had reached breaking point. The economic crisis and limits placed on the German economy, in turn led to widespread social and political unrest in Germany, and meant that Germany could no longer afford to pay reparations. Germany suffered the tyranny of the winning military power of France, England, the US, etc. The Nazi's took advantage poverty, unemployment, malnutrition, unrest, and all the other things that are in Gaza to win an election when Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing those who opposed him such as communists and socialists), and to eliminate the influence of Jewish. Just like Hamas, Hitler began dismantling democratic institutions and imprisoning or murdering his chief opponents. Just like Hamas. He then forced Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudetenland, where Germans lived in an occupied territory and were subject to [inset your wording on the "innocents" of Gaza under Israeli control} Next was atrocities committed against Jews Any of this sounding familiar? So yes, the world waited and waited like you want to do.
Wars that are based on revenge can be effective in punishing an enemy and for other reasons such as regime change, but they can also create a power vacuum that sparks a long, deadly conflict that fails to deliver sustainable stability. Europe and Japan became allies due to how the post-war was handled, to wit: put the areas under military control (thereby depriving the population of rights for some time), and ultimately to help rebuild.
The only successful conflict against a terrorist group in the past two decades, against the Islamic State group between 2014 and 2017, ended with both Raqqa in Syria and Mosul reduced to rubble and thousands of men, women, and children consigned to detention camps. There are people in speak in platitudes and outrage and accomplish nothing, and those that make the hard often necessary decisions. Israel with the support of the western world and other allies (and with winks from other neighbors such as the Egypt) is making what it thinks is the only decision it has (partly due to Israel's policies), and the consequences will be devastating to the civilian population, if Israel really intends to take out Hamas. The Gaza leadership, which is Hamas, didn't agree to an ethical fight. If you put in Hamas fighters behind humans shields, in Mosques, in schools, in hospitals, etc. you should expect casualties. But as they say on the school yard and in the UN, they are getting what they asked for.
In another post you said you pontificated " I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy." That is a tough one: have you thought about moving to say Switzerland?
I'm well versed in the history of the Holocaust. If you truly believe that Hamas and the blockaded, impoverished, ~2 million Palestinians living in squalor in a 140 square mile strip of land without a navy, without an air force, without ports, without a hope for a future represent the same existential threat to Jews as the 65 million Germans in a country ripe with natural resources spanning over180,999 square miles then I truly don't think any words I type will change your opinion of anything, you live in a world of pure imagination.
You posit that I'm clueless, holier than thou, and speak in platitudes while accomplishing nothing, and paint yourself as the pragmatist making hard choices, and go on to assert the necessity of bombing hospitals, dropping atomic bombs, and murdering civilians, while footnoting that the death and destruction is necessary "(partly due to Israel's policies)".
So pragmatism is waking up, putting on your big-boy pants, and bombing hospitals and killing civilians, while us wacky, clueless, holier than thou people pontificate about something as crazy as... changing those policies. Got it.
(edited to move my comment out of the quote text)
But yea, you don't seem to mind being a shill for Hamas and announcing what your county must be like, while ignoring the decisions your country made. Maybe I should add hypocrite to the list of words. Also, lose the term big boy pants - it is so 2010. As far as getting it, your idealism is overruling your common sense.
Move the goal posts, deflect from the topic we were discussing and pivot to a new one, and add in more personal attacks. Boring. Not worth a real reply.
Thanks to others who engage in good faith and have independent thoughts worth sharing. This thread is mostly very compelling and I appreciate actual intellectual pushback from those who help sharpen my own thinking.
Of equal note is the type of manifestly absurd statements you've made which evidence your bias. For example, that Israel is destroying a people. In 1948 here were less than 1M Palestinian refugees. Today there are over 5M. If Israel is destroying a people, they're really bad at it. And if that is the intent, why are they asking civilians to leave Northern Gaza? It is fair (perhaps) to criticize the way Israel is waging a war (and it is a declared war). It is not fair to ignore what Israel does to avoid civilian casualties which stands in stark contrast to Hamas targeting of civilians and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Do you know who has killed more Palestinians than Israel? Hamas and other terrorist groups, not to mention many other Arabs! Hamas has done so directly to impose their rule by force and notably with rockets aimed at Israel that fall short and land in Gaza. The hospital bombing today appears to be exactly that. Yet there you are, making unqualified assertions that back up your bias.
It seems pretty clear your news sources are off or you are totally incapable of acknowledging nuance. There are UNSUBSTANTIATED Hamas claims that Israel bombed fleeing caravans - you state that as a fact. Those claims have been largely debunked - but if you prefer at a minimum they are hotly in dispute and there is no evidence of such bombings. Yet, like the hospital bombing, you adopt the propaganda unquestionably and use it to support your distorted views.
You also accuse Israel of occupying Gaza (despite the 2005 withdrawal), repeat allegations of apartheid and "war crimes", and then make the odd claim that Israel's alleged actions have "taken away even my ability to grieve for my fellow Jews". This is the most bizarre white washing and victim blaming I have seen in some time. Only "the jews" are at fault? You feels the sads for the Palestinians, but not the Jews? The innocent Israeli civilians (most of whom were, ironically, of the left) are totally undeserving of any of your sympathy?
And you offer literally NO proposed solution. What would you have Israel do in the face of two organizations (Hezbollah and Hamas) who, based on religion (and exhibiting the same religious zealotry you accuse Netanyahu of) are INTRACTIBLY against the existence of Israel and the presence of Jews in that area. That is the side you've picked - the side you feel bad for. What is your solution in dealing with these terrorists?
I feel bad for all parties. The Palestinians have endured decades of suffering in large part because their leaders (including Hamas) have failed them. Israel has contributed to that suffering and bears some blame. But don't white wash what certain Palestinians (those supporting violence and terrorism and corrupt leadership) have done (and failed to do).
If you truly cared about the Palestinian people, you'd spend less time demonizing Israel (and the USA) and instead advocate for the type of change that will actually elevate their standard of living - starting with the removal of Hamas.
Biden has begun a trip to the Middle East. When it ends, what are the chances Fox News will say it was successful?
Anyone outraged at the attack today should remember that Israel has already bombed at least 19 Palestinian hospitals or health centers in the past 10 days.
— Alan MacLeod (@AlanRMacLeod) October 17, 2023
Israeli press conferencing making the case it wasn't them.
Hamas rockets are not likely to level a whole building, and as indicated above, the bombing of that hospital is not an isolated case.
IDF claims video shows misfiring Gaza rocket caused hospital carnage
https://mol.im/a/12643229
*This is the new generation "was there a 2nd shooter at Dealey Plaza?" debate.
Now that we have tossed into the mix deepfakes, cloned voices, claims that all experts and all supporting sources are liars, fakes and biased, you can no longer believe what you see or hear and every person can find something in the jumble to allow them to believe what they want to believe.
The irony is that regardless of who caused the explosion at the hospital, the Israel/Hamas Conflict is a cataclysmic clusterf@uck either way.
https://mol.im/a/12643229
*This is the new generation "was there a 2nd shooter at Dealey Plaza?" debate.
Now that we have tossed into the mix deepfakes, cloned voices, claims that all experts and all supporting sources are liars, fakes and biased, you can no longer believe what you see or hear and every person can find something in the jumble to allow them to believe what they want to believe.
The irony is that regardless of who caused the explosion at the hospital, the Israel/Hamas Conflict is a cataclysmic clusterf@uck either way.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Images of the destruction of the Al-Nuseirat Bakery, which supplied bread to over 100,000 people.
— Alan MacLeod (@AlanRMacLeod) October 18, 2023
When hit, the bakery's gas tank exploded, and killed all those queuing for bread.
I wonder if Israel will pretend it didn't do this, either.pic.twitter.com/ptAWQv5JyD
Did you watch any of the video? The recording of the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad terrorist discussing that it was them / their rocketā¦Cal88 said:
Hamas rockets are not likely to level a whole building, and as indicated above, the bombing of that hospital is not an isolated case.
Israeli spokesman shortly after the bombing of the hospital:tequila4kapp said:Did you watch any of the video? The recording of the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad terrorist discussing that it was them / their rocketā¦Cal88 said:
Hamas rockets are not likely to level a whole building, and as indicated above, the bombing of that hospital is not an isolated case.
Once again, this is not an isolated case:
So you don't believe the evidence, including audio recordings of terrorists saying it was them. You've made up your mind. Got it.
For others, video from CNN. Notice the type and size of the explosion seems (to me, at least) obviously different than aerial strikes from Israel. Also note the volume of immediate fire. That seems consistent with a misfired rocket that lands early and hasn't expended its fuel, almost like a plane crash.
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-18-23/h_b4a7b1ab8f030dd4906e5d1250f1f64b
Edit to include better video for showing the orientation of the Hamas rockets toward the hospital
For others, video from CNN. Notice the type and size of the explosion seems (to me, at least) obviously different than aerial strikes from Israel. Also note the volume of immediate fire. That seems consistent with a misfired rocket that lands early and hasn't expended its fuel, almost like a plane crash.
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-18-23/h_b4a7b1ab8f030dd4906e5d1250f1f64b
Edit to include better video for showing the orientation of the Hamas rockets toward the hospital
Share the truth!#HamasisISIS pic.twitter.com/nqfG9UJCwt
— ×Ø×š× Roi īØ (@Roi_) October 18, 2023
tequila4kapp said:
So you don't believe the evidence, including audio recordings of terrorists saying it was them. You've made up your mind. Got it.
For others, video from CNN. Notice the type and size of the explosion seems (to me, at least) obviously different than aerial strikes from Israel. Also note the volume of immediate fire. That seems consistent with a misfired rocket that lands early and hasn't expended its fuel, almost like a plane crash.
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-18-23/h_b4a7b1ab8f030dd4906e5d1250f1f64b
Edit to include better video for showing the orientation of the Hamas rockets toward the hospitalShare the truth!#HamasisISIS pic.twitter.com/nqfG9UJCwt
— ×Ø×š× Roi īØ (@Roi_) October 18, 2023
The audio released by the IDF is at best, very weak evidence.
The warning of a strike on the hospital by the Israeli official above however is real, as is the pattern of Israelis bombing Palestinian hospitals.
BearGoggles said:KPG said:wifeisafurd said:Maybe the adults in the room are waiting for the evidence on who blew up the hospital, or is that so 2001? You're so blinded by your ideology you didn't even notice that there is a dispute as to whose missile hit the hospital. I might add the NYT withdrew its lead in about 2 hours, and now has a very different discussion of events as the US is reviewing Israel evidence that shows where the missile came from. But you, just double down. How Trump of you.KPG said:The old "Love it or leave it" schtick, is it 2001 or 2023?wifeisafurd said:It is a big bad world out there, but only the most clueless don't understand there always is retaliation. The aim of massive retaliation is to deter being attacked again. You can argue history and pick your time over the last 5,000 years that should matter, but you are where you are, and Israel has no real other options. For such a strategy to work, it must be made public knowledge to all possible aggressors (destruction of Gaza is for the eyes of other enemies and terror groups). The aggressor also must believe that the state announcing the policy has the ability to maintain multiple-strike capability. Hamas obviously knew that, and it is the legitimately elected representatives of the people in Gaza, so this was an attack by a government actor, not just a random group, and the dancing in the streets all over Gaza meant we approve and bring it on. Israel didn't just say we will be tit for tat, they declared war against a territory, and like the US and its allies in other wars, this war is aimed at regime change.KPG said:
Israel just bombed a hospital in Gaza City, and the AP is reporting over 500 were killed in the bombing, while other sources show over 1,000.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c
Hundreds of sick, injured, elderly refugees killed in an attack on a hospital. There is no moral equivocation or justification of this act. This has no place in modern society, and this will bring the region and us closer to war.
The Prime Minister of Israel is using dehumanization and broad othering language to differentiate Israel from "its enemies", tweeting out: "This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle". This language, reminiscent of the First Epistle to the Thessalonians of the New Testament, has been used to justify anti-Semitic attacks against Jews throughout ancient and contemporary history. This is the language you use to justify genocide, to justify racial and religious superiority and persecution. This language has no business coming from the Prime Minister of a Jewish state, and this language does not make me feel safer as a Jew.
If you value peace, your interests are not protected by the current far-right Israeli regime, and the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can tack towards peace.
The U.S. response to 9/11 included the American invasion of Afghanistan in league with the so-called Northern Alliance. Officially around 70,000K civilians lost their lives (probably more the 100K since counts in those regions historically are under measured). The rules of engagement for air strikes were amazingly relaxed resulting in bombing of civilian areas. The CIA armed and funded Afghan militia groups who have been implicated in grave human rights abuses and killings of civilians with the CIA's knowledge. The war has exacerbated the effects of poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to health care, and environmental degradation on Afghans' health. The immediate goals were to force the Taliban from power and destroy al-Qaida.
When Japanese bombed Peal Harbor, the US engaged in war with Japan. It was known policy that the allies would not take Japanese prisoners, which was completely buried by the US media. We dropped two atomic bombs on cites, and fire bombed many other Japanese cities. The civilian death toll in Japan was probably around 900,000 lives just from the bombings and you can add another 100,000 plus died from the atomic bombs.
Your continuous holy than thou act on moral equivocation and justification is wearing a little thin. As a Jew, you might want to take on judgment of the German Nazi experience. Like Hamas, the Nazi party advocating clear messages tailored to a broad range of people and their problems. Germany's standard of living was in a free fall due to sanctions placed on its economy by the World War 1 allies. The economic failure and a decline in living standards was associated with the Weimar democracy imposed by the Allies. By 1932, Germany had reached breaking point. The economic crisis and limits placed on the German economy, in turn led to widespread social and political unrest in Germany, and meant that Germany could no longer afford to pay reparations. Germany suffered the tyranny of the winning military power of France, England, the US, etc. The Nazi's took advantage poverty, unemployment, malnutrition, unrest, and all the other things that are in Gaza to win an election when Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing those who opposed him such as communists and socialists), and to eliminate the influence of Jewish. Just like Hamas, Hitler began dismantling democratic institutions and imprisoning or murdering his chief opponents. Just like Hamas. He then forced Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudetenland, where Germans lived in an occupied territory and were subject to [inset your wording on the "innocents" of Gaza under Israeli control} Next was atrocities committed against Jews Any of this sounding familiar? So yes, the world waited and waited like you want to do.
Wars that are based on revenge can be effective in punishing an enemy and for other reasons such as regime change, but they can also create a power vacuum that sparks a long, deadly conflict that fails to deliver sustainable stability. Europe and Japan became allies due to how the post-war was handled, to wit: put the areas under military control (thereby depriving the population of rights for some time), and ultimately to help rebuild.
The only successful conflict against a terrorist group in the past two decades, against the Islamic State group between 2014 and 2017, ended with both Raqqa in Syria and Mosul reduced to rubble and thousands of men, women, and children consigned to detention camps. There are people in speak in platitudes and outrage and accomplish nothing, and those that make the hard often necessary decisions. Israel with the support of the western world and other allies (and with winks from other neighbors such as the Egypt) is making what it thinks is the only decision it has (partly due to Israel's policies), and the consequences will be devastating to the civilian population, if Israel really intends to take out Hamas. The Gaza leadership, which is Hamas, didn't agree to an ethical fight. If you put in Hamas fighters behind humans shields, in Mosques, in schools, in hospitals, etc. you should expect casualties. But as they say on the school yard and in the UN, they are getting what they asked for.
In another post you said you pontificated " I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy." That is a tough one: have you thought about moving to say Switzerland?
I'm well versed in the history of the Holocaust. If you truly believe that Hamas and the blockaded, impoverished, ~2 million Palestinians living in squalor in a 140 square mile strip of land without a navy, without an air force, without ports, without a hope for a future represent the same existential threat to Jews as the 65 million Germans in a country ripe with natural resources spanning over180,999 square miles then I truly don't think any words I type will change your opinion of anything, you live in a world of pure imagination.
You posit that I'm clueless, holier than thou, and speak in platitudes while accomplishing nothing, and paint yourself as the pragmatist making hard choices, and go on to assert the necessity of bombing hospitals, dropping atomic bombs, and murdering civilians, while footnoting that the death and destruction is necessary "(partly due to Israel's policies)".
So pragmatism is waking up, putting on your big-boy pants, and bombing hospitals and killing civilians, while us wacky, clueless, holier than thou people pontificate about something as crazy as... changing those policies. Got it.
(edited to move my comment out of the quote text)
But yea, you don't seem to mind being a shill for Hamas and announcing what your county must be like, while ignoring the decisions your country made. Maybe I should add hypocrite to the list of words. Also, lose the term big boy pants - it is so 2010. As far as getting it, your idealism is overruling your common sense.
Move the goal posts, deflect from the topic we were discussing and pivot to a new one, and add in more personal attacks. Boring. Not worth a real reply.
Thanks to others who engage in good faith and have independent thoughts worth sharing. This thread is mostly very compelling and I appreciate actual intellectual pushback from those who help sharpen my own thinking.
ā¦
You also accuse Israel of occupying Gaza (despite the 2005 withdrawal), repeat allegations of apartheid and "war crimes", and then make the odd claim that Israel's alleged actions have "taken away even my ability to grieve for my fellow Jews". This is the most bizarre white washing and victim blaming I have seen in some time. Only "the jews" are at fault? You feels the sads for the Palestinians, but not the Jews? The innocent Israeli civilians (most of whom were, ironically, of the left) are totally undeserving of any of your sympathy?
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm going to make two separate replies, the second one will be much longer, but this one needs to stand out.
We can disagree on facts, we can disagree on narratives, we can disagree on our interpretations of history and our worldviews. You have no right to invalidate my feelings as bizarre and white washing and victim blaming, and to put words into my mouth that I don't feel sad for Jews or that Israeli citizens aren't deserving of my sympathies. I shared my feelings, how I thought, how I felt, how the events transpired made me feel. I didn't tell you you were wrong if you didn't feel what I felt. I have every right to share how these events made me feel. It's clear my feelings make you uncomfortable, but I'm going to draw a bright red line between disagreements about facts and implications and invalidating feelings and putting words into my mouth.
The reality of life under occupation in Palestine:
Has anyone listened to the podcast between @joerogan and @AbbyMartin ?
— Inversionism (@Inversionism) October 17, 2023
Is this all just a lie? Is it propaganda and none of this is happening? What exactly is she saying that isn't true? pic.twitter.com/ta2jlzX2z2
Biden and US seem to think the evidence points to a terrorist group's missile supply at the hospital exploding. I'm expecting Mr. Self Righteous to explain to us using a hospital as a shield is justified in today's military ethics because of the dehumanizing policies of Israel and that all is fair as long you are not Israel, and notwithstanding what Biden and the US are saying, he knows the truth and he grieves for everyone and if you try to pushback on his views or the facts he makes-up, well f-you you goal post moving out of date people.
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-a85cb682fdc61b80285cf4ab354354ce
The White House says current intelligence shows that Israel was "not responsible" for the explosion at a Gaza hospital, but information is still being collected.
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-a85cb682fdc61b80285cf4ab354354ce
The White House says current intelligence shows that Israel was "not responsible" for the explosion at a Gaza hospital, but information is still being collected.
Biden suggests otherwise, but let's move on to the bigger question you present. Query: If misses are being fired from a hospital, is it okay to attack the hospital? And is it okay when the US or its allies do this to Taliban or ISIS areas, but not Israel?Cal88 said:tequila4kapp said:
So you don't believe the evidence, including audio recordings of terrorists saying it was them. You've made up your mind. Got it.
For others, video from CNN. Notice the type and size of the explosion seems (to me, at least) obviously different than aerial strikes from Israel. Also note the volume of immediate fire. That seems consistent with a misfired rocket that lands early and hasn't expended its fuel, almost like a plane crash.
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-18-23/h_b4a7b1ab8f030dd4906e5d1250f1f64b
Edit to include better video for showing the orientation of the Hamas rockets toward the hospitalShare the truth!#HamasisISIS pic.twitter.com/nqfG9UJCwt
— ×Ø×š× Roi īØ (@Roi_) October 18, 2023
The audio released by the IDF is at best, very weak evidence.
The warning of a strike on the hospital by the Israeli official above however is real, as is the pattern of Israelis bombing Palestinian hospitals.
Analysing Israel's 'proof' it wasn't behind Gaza hospital bloodbath
https://mol.im/a/12644477
*Solves nothing. All experts will be deemed Israeli apologists and propagandists.
This is how Arab world views it:
Al-Ahli hospital bombing: Israel performing its usual post-atrocity routine | Opinions | Al Jazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/18/al-ahli-hospital-bombing-israel-performing-its-usual-post-atrocity-routine
https://mol.im/a/12644477
*Solves nothing. All experts will be deemed Israeli apologists and propagandists.
This is how Arab world views it:
Al-Ahli hospital bombing: Israel performing its usual post-atrocity routine | Opinions | Al Jazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/18/al-ahli-hospital-bombing-israel-performing-its-usual-post-atrocity-routine
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Let's go point by point.BearGoggles said:It is not moving the goalposts to point out that you made an unqualified claim (Israel bombed a hospital) and based on basically no information other than a very preliminary DISPTUED claim. And then you want to just gloss over that. You think that's good faith?KPG said:wifeisafurd said:Maybe the adults in the room are waiting for the evidence on who blew up the hospital, or is that so 2001? You're so blinded by your ideology you didn't even notice that there is a dispute as to whose missile hit the hospital. I might add the NYT withdrew its lead in about 2 hours, and now has a very different discussion of events as the US is reviewing Israel evidence that shows where the missile came from. But you, just double down. How Trump of you.KPG said:The old "Love it or leave it" schtick, is it 2001 or 2023?wifeisafurd said:It is a big bad world out there, but only the most clueless don't understand there always is retaliation. The aim of massive retaliation is to deter being attacked again. You can argue history and pick your time over the last 5,000 years that should matter, but you are where you are, and Israel has no real other options. For such a strategy to work, it must be made public knowledge to all possible aggressors (destruction of Gaza is for the eyes of other enemies and terror groups). The aggressor also must believe that the state announcing the policy has the ability to maintain multiple-strike capability. Hamas obviously knew that, and it is the legitimately elected representatives of the people in Gaza, so this was an attack by a government actor, not just a random group, and the dancing in the streets all over Gaza meant we approve and bring it on. Israel didn't just say we will be tit for tat, they declared war against a territory, and like the US and its allies in other wars, this war is aimed at regime change.KPG said:
Israel just bombed a hospital in Gaza City, and the AP is reporting over 500 were killed in the bombing, while other sources show over 1,000.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c
Hundreds of sick, injured, elderly refugees killed in an attack on a hospital. There is no moral equivocation or justification of this act. This has no place in modern society, and this will bring the region and us closer to war.
The Prime Minister of Israel is using dehumanization and broad othering language to differentiate Israel from "its enemies", tweeting out: "This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle". This language, reminiscent of the First Epistle to the Thessalonians of the New Testament, has been used to justify anti-Semitic attacks against Jews throughout ancient and contemporary history. This is the language you use to justify genocide, to justify racial and religious superiority and persecution. This language has no business coming from the Prime Minister of a Jewish state, and this language does not make me feel safer as a Jew.
If you value peace, your interests are not protected by the current far-right Israeli regime, and the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can tack towards peace.
The U.S. response to 9/11 included the American invasion of Afghanistan in league with the so-called Northern Alliance. Officially around 70,000K civilians lost their lives (probably more the 100K since counts in those regions historically are under measured). The rules of engagement for air strikes were amazingly relaxed resulting in bombing of civilian areas. The CIA armed and funded Afghan militia groups who have been implicated in grave human rights abuses and killings of civilians with the CIA's knowledge. The war has exacerbated the effects of poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to health care, and environmental degradation on Afghans' health. The immediate goals were to force the Taliban from power and destroy al-Qaida.
When Japanese bombed Peal Harbor, the US engaged in war with Japan. It was known policy that the allies would not take Japanese prisoners, which was completely buried by the US media. We dropped two atomic bombs on cites, and fire bombed many other Japanese cities. The civilian death toll in Japan was probably around 900,000 lives just from the bombings and you can add another 100,000 plus died from the atomic bombs.
Your continuous holy than thou act on moral equivocation and justification is wearing a little thin. As a Jew, you might want to take on judgment of the German Nazi experience. Like Hamas, the Nazi party advocating clear messages tailored to a broad range of people and their problems. Germany's standard of living was in a free fall due to sanctions placed on its economy by the World War 1 allies. The economic failure and a decline in living standards was associated with the Weimar democracy imposed by the Allies. By 1932, Germany had reached breaking point. The economic crisis and limits placed on the German economy, in turn led to widespread social and political unrest in Germany, and meant that Germany could no longer afford to pay reparations. Germany suffered the tyranny of the winning military power of France, England, the US, etc. The Nazi's took advantage poverty, unemployment, malnutrition, unrest, and all the other things that are in Gaza to win an election when Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing those who opposed him such as communists and socialists), and to eliminate the influence of Jewish. Just like Hamas, Hitler began dismantling democratic institutions and imprisoning or murdering his chief opponents. Just like Hamas. He then forced Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudetenland, where Germans lived in an occupied territory and were subject to [inset your wording on the "innocents" of Gaza under Israeli control} Next was atrocities committed against Jews Any of this sounding familiar? So yes, the world waited and waited like you want to do.
Wars that are based on revenge can be effective in punishing an enemy and for other reasons such as regime change, but they can also create a power vacuum that sparks a long, deadly conflict that fails to deliver sustainable stability. Europe and Japan became allies due to how the post-war was handled, to wit: put the areas under military control (thereby depriving the population of rights for some time), and ultimately to help rebuild.
The only successful conflict against a terrorist group in the past two decades, against the Islamic State group between 2014 and 2017, ended with both Raqqa in Syria and Mosul reduced to rubble and thousands of men, women, and children consigned to detention camps. There are people in speak in platitudes and outrage and accomplish nothing, and those that make the hard often necessary decisions. Israel with the support of the western world and other allies (and with winks from other neighbors such as the Egypt) is making what it thinks is the only decision it has (partly due to Israel's policies), and the consequences will be devastating to the civilian population, if Israel really intends to take out Hamas. The Gaza leadership, which is Hamas, didn't agree to an ethical fight. If you put in Hamas fighters behind humans shields, in Mosques, in schools, in hospitals, etc. you should expect casualties. But as they say on the school yard and in the UN, they are getting what they asked for.
In another post you said you pontificated " I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy." That is a tough one: have you thought about moving to say Switzerland?
I'm well versed in the history of the Holocaust. If you truly believe that Hamas and the blockaded, impoverished, ~2 million Palestinians living in squalor in a 140 square mile strip of land without a navy, without an air force, without ports, without a hope for a future represent the same existential threat to Jews as the 65 million Germans in a country ripe with natural resources spanning over180,999 square miles then I truly don't think any words I type will change your opinion of anything, you live in a world of pure imagination.
You posit that I'm clueless, holier than thou, and speak in platitudes while accomplishing nothing, and paint yourself as the pragmatist making hard choices, and go on to assert the necessity of bombing hospitals, dropping atomic bombs, and murdering civilians, while footnoting that the death and destruction is necessary "(partly due to Israel's policies)".
So pragmatism is waking up, putting on your big-boy pants, and bombing hospitals and killing civilians, while us wacky, clueless, holier than thou people pontificate about something as crazy as... changing those policies. Got it.
(edited to move my comment out of the quote text)
But yea, you don't seem to mind being a shill for Hamas and announcing what your county must be like, while ignoring the decisions your country made. Maybe I should add hypocrite to the list of words. Also, lose the term big boy pants - it is so 2010. As far as getting it, your idealism is overruling your common sense.
Move the goal posts, deflect from the topic we were discussing and pivot to a new one, and add in more personal attacks. Boring. Not worth a real reply.
Thanks to others who engage in good faith and have independent thoughts worth sharing. This thread is mostly very compelling and I appreciate actual intellectual pushback from those who help sharpen my own thinking.
Of equal note is the type of manifestly absurd statements you've made which evidence your bias. For example, that Israel is destroying a people. In 1948 here were less than 1M Palestinian refugees. Today there are over 5M. If Israel is destroying a people, they're really bad at it. And if that is the intent, why are they asking civilians to leave Northern Gaza? It is fair (perhaps) to criticize the way Israel is waging a war (and it is a declared war). It is not fair to ignore what Israel does to avoid civilian casualties which stands in stark contrast to Hamas targeting of civilians and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Do you know who has killed more Palestinians than Israel? Hamas and other terrorist groups, not to mention many other Arabs! Hamas has done so directly to impose their rule by force and notably with rockets aimed at Israel that fall short and land in Gaza. The hospital bombing today appears to be exactly that. Yet there you are, making unqualified assertions that back up your bias.
It seems pretty clear your news sources are off or you are totally incapable of acknowledging nuance. There are UNSUBSTANTIATED Hamas claims that Israel bombed fleeing caravans - you state that as a fact. Those claims have been largely debunked - but if you prefer at a minimum they are hotly in dispute and there is no evidence of such bombings. Yet, like the hospital bombing, you adopt the propaganda unquestionably and use it to support your distorted views.
You also accuse Israel of occupying Gaza (despite the 2005 withdrawal), repeat allegations of apartheid and "war crimes", and then make the odd claim that Israel's alleged actions have "taken away even my ability to grieve for my fellow Jews". This is the most bizarre white washing and victim blaming I have seen in some time. Only "the jews" are at fault? You feels the sads for the Palestinians, but not the Jews? The innocent Israeli civilians (most of whom were, ironically, of the left) are totally undeserving of any of your sympathy?
And you offer literally NO proposed solution. What would you have Israel do in the face of two organizations (Hezbollah and Hamas) who, based on religion (and exhibiting the same religious zealotry you accuse Netanyahu of) are INTRACTIBLY against the existence of Israel and the presence of Jews in that area. That is the side you've picked - the side you feel bad for. What is your solution in dealing with these terrorists?
I feel bad for all parties. The Palestinians have endured decades of suffering in large part because their leaders (including Hamas) have failed them. Israel has contributed to that suffering and bears some blame. But don't white wash what certain Palestinians (those supporting violence and terrorism and corrupt leadership) have done (and failed to do).
If you truly cared about the Palestinian people, you'd spend less time demonizing Israel (and the USA) and instead advocate for the type of change that will actually elevate their standard of living - starting with the removal of Hamas.
1. The goalpost shifting was replying to wifeisafurd's comment that Hamas represents a similar existential threat as the Nazi Germans did to the Jews, and that war crimes are a normal part of war. I didn't see any reply on that matter, and instead the conversation shifted. I don't like to reply to people that just keep shifting the conversation without responding to the point at hand. His comments also were devolving into more and more personal attacks and accusations, and his last reply made clear he wasn't interested in discussing ideas that made him uncomfortable, as he explicitly asked me not to reply to him.
2. The hospital bombing is going to remain disputed for the forseeable future. Here is what I do know about it.
A. Hananya Naftali, a prominent Israeli social media influcer and IDF veteran, tweeted out and immediately deleted a post claiming credit for bombing the hospital right after the bombing occurred
Netanyahu-appointed Israeli Digital Spokesperson Hananya Naftali tweeted on 18 October 2023 admitting that Israel bombed the Baptist Hospital in Gaza, killing 500 civilians. He later deleted the tweet and blamed the attack on hamas after international outcry : r/ModernPropaganda (reddit.com)
(Please note before you make inferences about my sources that I had to do a Google images search for this, as I can't attach photos).
B. You may say well, what does Hananyan Naftali know as a comms guy? Hananyan Naftali is very close to Benjamin Netenyahu and has risen prominently in helping craft the public narrative around Israel and the Netenyahu administration. The rise of Hananya Naftali, social media star and pro-Israel influencer - JNS.org
How close is he to Netenyahu? Well, Netenyahu attended and toasted him at his wedding. He's not just some random comms guy. Prime Minister Netanyahu and Sara Bless Us At Our Wedding | Thank you Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and dear Sara for blessing us at our wedding. Truly amazing! India International | By Hananya Naftali | Facebook
C. What is he saying now? He's admitting that he tweeted and deleted claiming Israeli credit for bombing the hospital, and his story is now that he assumed it was a Hamas military cache, and that 'The IDF does not bomb hospitals.
Hananya Naftali on X: "Earlier today I shared a report that was published on @reuters about the bombing at the hospital in Gaza which falsely stated Israel struck the hospital. I mistakenly shared this information in a since deleted post in which I referenced Hamas' routine use of hospitals to storeā¦" / X (twitter.com)
D. Is that true? Does the IDF not bomb hospitals? Well, no. The IDF does bomb hospitals. You can say that Hamas uses them for military purposes, but that's a separate conversation. But the IDF does bomb hospitals, they have in the past, and they have in this conflict. They even bombed this very hospital twice earlier in the conflict, so-called 'knock on the roof bombs' encouraging the full evacuation and warning of a larger strike later.
Israel Airstrikes Tatter Strained Gaza Health Care System (theintercept.com) (2014)
Israel/Gaza: Attacks on medical facilities and civilians add to war crime allegations - Amnesty International (2014)
Nowhere to Hide in Gaza as Israeli Onslaught Continues - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (2023)
AHLI HOSPITAL STRUCK BY ROCKET FIRE | American Friends of the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem (afedj.org) - Al Ahil hospital struck by Israel in earlier attack on October 15th prior to October 17th attack.
E. So the IDF position that they don't bomb hospitals is not true. They have, and do, and in fact, bombed this very hospital just three days before. And a Netanyahu spokesperson took credit for bombing this hospital immediately after, then retracted the statement. Now we have heard a lot of conflicting information.
F. What is the conflicting information? Israel is saying it was a mis-fired Islamic Jihad missile. Let's suspend disbelief that an Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or other missile fired from Gaza at any point in time has ever been powerful enough to kill 500+, despite thousands having been launched over the years at Israel. Blaming Islamic Jihad is right out of the IDF playbook when an operation is met with public backlash. In 2022, the IDF killed 5 Palestinian children in a cemetary. Immediately, the IDF blamed Islamic Jihad, a group separate from Hamas. There was a lot of back and forth, a lot of conflicting reports, a lot of mis-information. Eventually, it was confirmed that the IDF did in fact kill 5 Palestinian boys that were visited a grave site to grieve. Gaza: Israel admits killing five children at cemetery after initially blaming Islamic Jihad | Middle East Eye
Similarly, when the IDF killed a prominent Palestinian-American journalist, they blamed Hamas, then said it's possible it was crossfire, before finally admitting it was likely accidental. Shireen Abu Akleh - Wikipedia
G. I am well aware of what Israeli intelligence is purporting, and I'm also well-aware that as of this morning, the U.S. "has collected "high confidence" signals intelligence showing that the explosion at a Gaza hospital compound on Tuesday was caused by the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
I am also still waiting for the evidence of the weapons of mass destruction that were the impetus for the last twenty years of our foreign policy.
I am also certain that this will continue to be debated for some time.
3. The Israeli bombing of evacuating caravans report isn't disputed as far as I'm aware. Please point me in the direction if I'm mistaken. 70 killed after convoys of evacuees in Gaza hit by Israeli airstrikes (nbcnews.com)
4. You start a straw-man argument by saying that I said Israel is trying to destroy a people, and then argue against a point I never made by showing the growth of the Palestinian population. Okay?
I said the following about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians: "humiliation, occupation, apartheid, collective punishment, physical and psychological torture'.
5. I don't really have an invested interest in Palestinian self-government in the same way I do the Israeli government. I'm not Palestinian, I'm not a Muslim, and my country doesn't actively participate in propping up the Palestinians as a military outpost with billions of dollars of aid, and with diplomatic cover in the UN. In that way, you can say that I'm biased and maybe even a little bit racist in that I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard than I hold Hamas, in large part because as a US taxpayer, I consider myself a stakeholder in the enterprises my tax dollars support.
6. Are you arguing that the Gaza strip isn't occupied since Israel 'vacated' it in 2005? Is that a semantic argument or a real one? Semantically, sure, we can sure it's Israeli 'controlled' territory since Israel technically did cease to occupy the territory formally in their 2005 withdrawl. Are you suggesting though that Gaza is not occupied in every other sense of the word? That they're a self-sufficient nation? This is an extremist view that runs counter to the United Nations. Here is their take on it, not mine, take it up with them as Israeli occupation over Gaza isn't an opinion so much as an international fact. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/11297
7. I agree, Hamas is not the way forward for peace and is not in the best interest of the Palestinians. So what's my way forward? An independent Palestinian state.
Again, as a US citizen and therefore taxpaying stakeholder in the affairs of our client state Israel, my opinions are what Israel can do, and what we can allow them to do. As a Jew, I also have some particular thoughts. First and foremost, I truly believe that it is my and others responsibility to not let the pain of my ancestors, the atrocities of the Holocaust and the very real violence associated with anti-Semetism be weaponized to justify the subjugation of another people.
As far as Hamas? Yes, I agree, they aren't serving the best interests of the Palestinians, and they need to go. But how did they get there? Why, they've risen in large part thanks to Benjamin Netenyahu, who legitimizes them as a partner, and urges their funding in order to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state. Don't beleive me? Here, he has said it himself. This isn't a conspiracy, these are his words:
"Those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas," he stated at a Likud party meeting in March 2019. "This is part of our strategy, to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria." - Benjamin Netenyahu
How Benjamin Netanyahu empowered Hamas... and broke Israel (telegraph.co.uk)
Israel has asymmetric military power relative to its peers, and largely in part because of US support. The war of 1967 shows that this is necessary for Israel to survive. However, Israel also has a responsibility to its citizens to behave as a good neighbor. Continued belligerence towards its neighboring nations and occupied Palestinian territories will only sow more conflict. If we just get rid of Hamas, bomb it into oblivion and kill thousands of Palestinians, in a few years, if we continue supporting the same Israeli policies, we will just have another Hamas, and another, and another, and each one will be worse and more desperate than the last.
So step one is to get rid of Netenyahu, then treat Palestinians as people with dignity and with a state, and continue to work towards a two state solution.
This is the hill you're dying on? Making provably wrong claims discredits everything you say.Cal88 said:
Hamas rockets are not likely to level a whole building, and as indicated above, the bombing of that hospital is not an isolated case.
The hospital building was not leveled. There is no bomb crater. There is literally no evidence supporting the claim this was an Israeli action other than a Hamas claim for which it has produced zero evidence. This debunking of your assertion is widely reported in the media and on twitter, yet here you are chasing a conspiracy theory and refusing to acknowledge the evidence. In this case, it is undisputed that Hamas/PLF were firing missiles from a location next to the hospital and you have nothing to say about that.
So letās walk through it.
— AG (@AGHamilton29) October 18, 2023
We now have video of the scene showing the explosion is from the parking lot and the buildings are in tact. There is no crater, no building demolished. This is inconsistent with the type of bomb many were suggesting yesterday. pic.twitter.com/HFKKxS8kvr pic.twitter.com/SpgG3Ktbiy
In terms of it allegedly not being an "isolated case", facts please. You seem to be glossing over the fact that Hamas regularly and intentionally uses human shields, fires rockets from schools, mosques, and hospitals (or areas immediately adjacent thereto), and in fact have unquestionably located their headquarter under a hospital. (https://freebeacon.com/national-security/not-so-secret-hamas-command-bunker-located-under-gaza-hospital/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital#Use_by_Hamas and) That makes those places legitimate targets under international law (which is not to say they necessarily should be targeted in all cases).
No one is saying they shot a missile. They are saying their stockpile of missiles at the hospital blew-up. Israel was monitoring their communications. Which best us to Bearister's post about. everyone pointing at evidence being Israel apologists, etc.Cal88 said:
Hamas rockets are not likely to level a whole building, and as indicated above, the bombing of that hospital is not an isolated case.
You are absolutely correct sir.bearister said:
Analysing Israel's 'proof' it wasn't behind Gaza hospital bloodbath
https://mol.im/a/12644477
*Solves nothing. All experts will be deemed Israeli apologists and propagandists.
This is how Arab world views it:
Al-Ahli hospital bombing: Israel performing its usual post-atrocity routine | Opinions | Al Jazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/18/al-ahli-hospital-bombing-israel-performing-its-usual-post-atrocity-routine
KPG said:Let's go point by point.BearGoggles said:It is not moving the goalposts to point out that you made an unqualified claim (Israel bombed a hospital) and based on basically no information other than a very preliminary DISPTUED claim. And then you want to just gloss over that. You think that's good faith?KPG said:wifeisafurd said:Maybe the adults in the room are waiting for the evidence on who blew up the hospital, or is that so 2001? You're so blinded by your ideology you didn't even notice that there is a dispute as to whose missile hit the hospital. I might add the NYT withdrew its lead in about 2 hours, and now has a very different discussion of events as the US is reviewing Israel evidence that shows where the missile came from. But you, just double down. How Trump of you.KPG said:The old "Love it or leave it" schtick, is it 2001 or 2023?wifeisafurd said:It is a big bad world out there, but only the most clueless don't understand there always is retaliation. The aim of massive retaliation is to deter being attacked again. You can argue history and pick your time over the last 5,000 years that should matter, but you are where you are, and Israel has no real other options. For such a strategy to work, it must be made public knowledge to all possible aggressors (destruction of Gaza is for the eyes of other enemies and terror groups). The aggressor also must believe that the state announcing the policy has the ability to maintain multiple-strike capability. Hamas obviously knew that, and it is the legitimately elected representatives of the people in Gaza, so this was an attack by a government actor, not just a random group, and the dancing in the streets all over Gaza meant we approve and bring it on. Israel didn't just say we will be tit for tat, they declared war against a territory, and like the US and its allies in other wars, this war is aimed at regime change.KPG said:
Israel just bombed a hospital in Gaza City, and the AP is reporting over 500 were killed in the bombing, while other sources show over 1,000.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c
Hundreds of sick, injured, elderly refugees killed in an attack on a hospital. There is no moral equivocation or justification of this act. This has no place in modern society, and this will bring the region and us closer to war.
The Prime Minister of Israel is using dehumanization and broad othering language to differentiate Israel from "its enemies", tweeting out: "This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle". This language, reminiscent of the First Epistle to the Thessalonians of the New Testament, has been used to justify anti-Semitic attacks against Jews throughout ancient and contemporary history. This is the language you use to justify genocide, to justify racial and religious superiority and persecution. This language has no business coming from the Prime Minister of a Jewish state, and this language does not make me feel safer as a Jew.
If you value peace, your interests are not protected by the current far-right Israeli regime, and the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can tack towards peace.
The U.S. response to 9/11 included the American invasion of Afghanistan in league with the so-called Northern Alliance. Officially around 70,000K civilians lost their lives (probably more the 100K since counts in those regions historically are under measured). The rules of engagement for air strikes were amazingly relaxed resulting in bombing of civilian areas. The CIA armed and funded Afghan militia groups who have been implicated in grave human rights abuses and killings of civilians with the CIA's knowledge. The war has exacerbated the effects of poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to health care, and environmental degradation on Afghans' health. The immediate goals were to force the Taliban from power and destroy al-Qaida.
When Japanese bombed Peal Harbor, the US engaged in war with Japan. It was known policy that the allies would not take Japanese prisoners, which was completely buried by the US media. We dropped two atomic bombs on cites, and fire bombed many other Japanese cities. The civilian death toll in Japan was probably around 900,000 lives just from the bombings and you can add another 100,000 plus died from the atomic bombs.
Your continuous holy than thou act on moral equivocation and justification is wearing a little thin. As a Jew, you might want to take on judgment of the German Nazi experience. Like Hamas, the Nazi party advocating clear messages tailored to a broad range of people and their problems. Germany's standard of living was in a free fall due to sanctions placed on its economy by the World War 1 allies. The economic failure and a decline in living standards was associated with the Weimar democracy imposed by the Allies. By 1932, Germany had reached breaking point. The economic crisis and limits placed on the German economy, in turn led to widespread social and political unrest in Germany, and meant that Germany could no longer afford to pay reparations. Germany suffered the tyranny of the winning military power of France, England, the US, etc. The Nazi's took advantage poverty, unemployment, malnutrition, unrest, and all the other things that are in Gaza to win an election when Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing those who opposed him such as communists and socialists), and to eliminate the influence of Jewish. Just like Hamas, Hitler began dismantling democratic institutions and imprisoning or murdering his chief opponents. Just like Hamas. He then forced Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudetenland, where Germans lived in an occupied territory and were subject to [inset your wording on the "innocents" of Gaza under Israeli control} Next was atrocities committed against Jews Any of this sounding familiar? So yes, the world waited and waited like you want to do.
Wars that are based on revenge can be effective in punishing an enemy and for other reasons such as regime change, but they can also create a power vacuum that sparks a long, deadly conflict that fails to deliver sustainable stability. Europe and Japan became allies due to how the post-war was handled, to wit: put the areas under military control (thereby depriving the population of rights for some time), and ultimately to help rebuild.
The only successful conflict against a terrorist group in the past two decades, against the Islamic State group between 2014 and 2017, ended with both Raqqa in Syria and Mosul reduced to rubble and thousands of men, women, and children consigned to detention camps. There are people in speak in platitudes and outrage and accomplish nothing, and those that make the hard often necessary decisions. Israel with the support of the western world and other allies (and with winks from other neighbors such as the Egypt) is making what it thinks is the only decision it has (partly due to Israel's policies), and the consequences will be devastating to the civilian population, if Israel really intends to take out Hamas. The Gaza leadership, which is Hamas, didn't agree to an ethical fight. If you put in Hamas fighters behind humans shields, in Mosques, in schools, in hospitals, etc. you should expect casualties. But as they say on the school yard and in the UN, they are getting what they asked for.
In another post you said you pontificated " I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy." That is a tough one: have you thought about moving to say Switzerland?
I'm well versed in the history of the Holocaust. If you truly believe that Hamas and the blockaded, impoverished, ~2 million Palestinians living in squalor in a 140 square mile strip of land without a navy, without an air force, without ports, without a hope for a future represent the same existential threat to Jews as the 65 million Germans in a country ripe with natural resources spanning over180,999 square miles then I truly don't think any words I type will change your opinion of anything, you live in a world of pure imagination.
You posit that I'm clueless, holier than thou, and speak in platitudes while accomplishing nothing, and paint yourself as the pragmatist making hard choices, and go on to assert the necessity of bombing hospitals, dropping atomic bombs, and murdering civilians, while footnoting that the death and destruction is necessary "(partly due to Israel's policies)".
So pragmatism is waking up, putting on your big-boy pants, and bombing hospitals and killing civilians, while us wacky, clueless, holier than thou people pontificate about something as crazy as... changing those policies. Got it.
(edited to move my comment out of the quote text)
But yea, you don't seem to mind being a shill for Hamas and announcing what your county must be like, while ignoring the decisions your country made. Maybe I should add hypocrite to the list of words. Also, lose the term big boy pants - it is so 2010. As far as getting it, your idealism is overruling your common sense.
Move the goal posts, deflect from the topic we were discussing and pivot to a new one, and add in more personal attacks. Boring. Not worth a real reply.
Thanks to others who engage in good faith and have independent thoughts worth sharing. This thread is mostly very compelling and I appreciate actual intellectual pushback from those who help sharpen my own thinking.
Of equal note is the type of manifestly absurd statements you've made which evidence your bias. For example, that Israel is destroying a people. In 1948 here were less than 1M Palestinian refugees. Today there are over 5M. If Israel is destroying a people, they're really bad at it. And if that is the intent, why are they asking civilians to leave Northern Gaza? It is fair (perhaps) to criticize the way Israel is waging a war (and it is a declared war). It is not fair to ignore what Israel does to avoid civilian casualties which stands in stark contrast to Hamas targeting of civilians and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Do you know who has killed more Palestinians than Israel? Hamas and other terrorist groups, not to mention many other Arabs! Hamas has done so directly to impose their rule by force and notably with rockets aimed at Israel that fall short and land in Gaza. The hospital bombing today appears to be exactly that. Yet there you are, making unqualified assertions that back up your bias.
It seems pretty clear your news sources are off or you are totally incapable of acknowledging nuance. There are UNSUBSTANTIATED Hamas claims that Israel bombed fleeing caravans - you state that as a fact. Those claims have been largely debunked - but if you prefer at a minimum they are hotly in dispute and there is no evidence of such bombings. Yet, like the hospital bombing, you adopt the propaganda unquestionably and use it to support your distorted views.
You also accuse Israel of occupying Gaza (despite the 2005 withdrawal), repeat allegations of apartheid and "war crimes", and then make the odd claim that Israel's alleged actions have "taken away even my ability to grieve for my fellow Jews". This is the most bizarre white washing and victim blaming I have seen in some time. Only "the jews" are at fault? You feels the sads for the Palestinians, but not the Jews? The innocent Israeli civilians (most of whom were, ironically, of the left) are totally undeserving of any of your sympathy?
And you offer literally NO proposed solution. What would you have Israel do in the face of two organizations (Hezbollah and Hamas) who, based on religion (and exhibiting the same religious zealotry you accuse Netanyahu of) are INTRACTIBLY against the existence of Israel and the presence of Jews in that area. That is the side you've picked - the side you feel bad for. What is your solution in dealing with these terrorists?
I feel bad for all parties. The Palestinians have endured decades of suffering in large part because their leaders (including Hamas) have failed them. Israel has contributed to that suffering and bears some blame. But don't white wash what certain Palestinians (those supporting violence and terrorism and corrupt leadership) have done (and failed to do).
If you truly cared about the Palestinian people, you'd spend less time demonizing Israel (and the USA) and instead advocate for the type of change that will actually elevate their standard of living - starting with the removal of Hamas.
1. The goalpost shifting was replying to wifeisafurd's comment that Hamas represents a similar existential threat as the Nazi Germans did to the Jews, and that war crimes are a normal part of war. I didn't see any reply on that matter, and instead the conversation shifted. I don't like to reply to people that just keep shifting the conversation without responding to the point at hand. His comments also were devolving into more and more personal attacks and accusations, and his last reply made clear he wasn't interested in discussing ideas that made him uncomfortable, as he explicitly asked me not to reply to him.
2. The hospital bombing is going to remain disputed for the forseeable future. Here is what I do know about it.
A. Hananya Naftali, a prominent Israeli social media influcer and IDF veteran, tweeted out and immediately deleted a post claiming credit for bombing the hospital right after the bombing occurred
Netanyahu-appointed Israeli Digital Spokesperson Hananya Naftali tweeted on 18 October 2023 admitting that Israel bombed the Baptist Hospital in Gaza, killing 500 civilians. He later deleted the tweet and blamed the attack on hamas after international outcry : r/ModernPropaganda (reddit.com)
(Please note before you make inferences about my sources that I had to do a Google images search for this, as I can't attach photos).
B. You may say well, what does Hananyan Naftali know as a comms guy? Hananyan Naftali is very close to Benjamin Netenyahu and has risen prominently in helping craft the public narrative around Israel and the Netenyahu administration. The rise of Hananya Naftali, social media star and pro-Israel influencer - JNS.org
How close is he to Netenyahu? Well, Netenyahu attended and toasted him at his wedding. He's not just some random comms guy. Prime Minister Netanyahu and Sara Bless Us At Our Wedding | Thank you Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and dear Sara for blessing us at our wedding. Truly amazing! India International | By Hananya Naftali | Facebook
C. What is he saying now? He's admitting that he tweeted and deleted claiming Israeli credit for bombing the hospital, and his story is now that he assumed it was a Hamas military cache, and that 'The IDF does not bomb hospitals.
Hananya Naftali on X: "Earlier today I shared a report that was published on @reuters about the bombing at the hospital in Gaza which falsely stated Israel struck the hospital. I mistakenly shared this information in a since deleted post in which I referenced Hamas' routine use of hospitals to storeā¦" / X (twitter.com)
D. Is that true? Does the IDF not bomb hospitals? Well, no. The IDF does bomb hospitals. You can say that Hamas uses them for military purposes, but that's a separate conversation. But the IDF does bomb hospitals, they have in the past, and they have in this conflict. They even bombed this very hospital twice earlier in the conflict, so-called 'knock on the roof bombs' encouraging the full evacuation and warning of a larger strike later.
Israel Airstrikes Tatter Strained Gaza Health Care System (theintercept.com) (2014)
Israel/Gaza: Attacks on medical facilities and civilians add to war crime allegations - Amnesty International (2014)
Nowhere to Hide in Gaza as Israeli Onslaught Continues - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (2023)
AHLI HOSPITAL STRUCK BY ROCKET FIRE | American Friends of the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem (afedj.org) - Al Ahil hospital struck by Israel in earlier attack on October 15th prior to October 17th attack.
E. So the IDF position that they don't bomb hospitals is not true. They have, and do, and in fact, bombed this very hospital just three days before. And a Netanyahu spokesperson took credit for bombing this hospital immediately after, then retracted the statement. Now we have heard a lot of conflicting information.
F. What is the conflicting information? Israel is saying it was a mis-fired Islamic Jihad missile. Let's suspend disbelief that an Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or other missile fired from Gaza at any point in time has ever been powerful enough to kill 500+, despite thousands having been launched over the years at Israel. Blaming Islamic Jihad is right out of the IDF playbook when an operation is met with public backlash. In 2022, the IDF killed 5 Palestinian children in a cemetary. Immediately, the IDF blamed Islamic Jihad, a group separate from Hamas. There was a lot of back and forth, a lot of conflicting reports, a lot of mis-information. Eventually, it was confirmed that the IDF did in fact kill 5 Palestinian boys that were visited a grave site to grieve. Gaza: Israel admits killing five children at cemetery after initially blaming Islamic Jihad | Middle East Eye
Similarly, when the IDF killed a prominent Palestinian-American journalist, they blamed Hamas, then said it's possible it was crossfire, before finally admitting it was likely accidental. Shireen Abu Akleh - Wikipedia
G. I am well aware of what Israeli intelligence is purporting, and I'm also well-aware that as of this morning, the U.S. "has collected "high confidence" signals intelligence showing that the explosion at a Gaza hospital compound on Tuesday was caused by the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
I am also still waiting for the evidence of the weapons of mass destruction that were the impetus for the last twenty years of our foreign policy.
I am also certain that this will continue to be debated for some time.
3. The Israeli bombing of evacuating caravans report isn't disputed as far as I'm aware. Please point me in the direction if I'm mistaken. 70 killed after convoys of evacuees in Gaza hit by Israeli airstrikes (nbcnews.com)
4. You start a straw-man argument by saying that I said Israel is trying to destroy a people, and then argue against a point I never made by showing the growth of the Palestinian population. Okay?
I said the following about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians: "humiliation, occupation, apartheid, collective punishment, physical and psychological torture'.
5. I don't really have an invested interest in Palestinian self-government in the same way I do the Israeli government. I'm not Palestinian, I'm not a Muslim, and my country doesn't actively participate in propping up the Palestinians as a military outpost with billions of dollars of aid, and with diplomatic cover in the UN. In that way, you can say that I'm biased and maybe even a little bit racist in that I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard than I hold Hamas, in large part because as a US taxpayer, I consider myself a stakeholder in the enterprises my tax dollars support.
6. Are you arguing that the Gaza strip isn't occupied since Israel 'vacated' it in 2005? Is that a semantic argument or a real one? Semantically, sure, we can sure it's Israeli 'controlled' territory since Israel technically did cease to occupy the territory formally in their 2005 withdrawl. Are you suggesting though that Gaza is not occupied in every other sense of the word? That they're a self-sufficient nation? This is an extremist view that runs counter to the United Nations. Here is their take on it, not mine, take it up with them as Israeli occupation over Gaza isn't an opinion so much as an international fact. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/11297
7. I agree, Hamas is not the way forward for peace and is not in the best interest of the Palestinians. So what's my way forward? An independent Palestinian state.
Again, as a US citizen and therefore taxpaying stakeholder in the affairs of our client state Israel, my opinions are what Israel can do, and what we can allow them to do. As a Jew, I also have some particular thoughts. First and foremost, I truly believe that it is my and others responsibility to not let the pain of my ancestors, the atrocities of the Holocaust and the very real violence associated with anti-Semetism be weaponized to justify the subjugation of another people.
As far as Hamas? Yes, I agree, they aren't serving the best interests of the Palestinians, and they need to go. But how did they get there? Why, they've risen in large part thanks to Benjamin Netenyahu, who legitimizes them as a partner, and urges their funding in order to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state. Don't beleive me? Here, he has said it himself. This isn't a conspiracy, these are his words:
"Those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas," he stated at a Likud party meeting in March 2019. "This is part of our strategy, to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria." - Benjamin Netenyahu
How Benjamin Netanyahu empowered Hamas... and broke Israel (telegraph.co.uk)
Israel has asymmetric military power relative to its peers, and largely in part because of US support. The war of 1967 shows that this is necessary for Israel to survive. However, Israel also has a responsibility to its citizens to behave as a good neighbor. Continued belligerence towards its neighboring nations and occupied Palestinian territories will only sow more conflict. If we just get rid of Hamas, bomb it into oblivion and kill thousands of Palestinians, in a few years, if we continue supporting the same Israeli policies, we will just have another Hamas, and another, and another, and each one will be worse and more desperate than the last.
So step one is to get rid of Netenyahu, then treat Palestinians as people with dignity and with a state, and continue to work towards a two state solution.
I'm happy to respond point by point. But I want to make a larger observation first - we should doubt any claims made by Hamas and the IDF. We should scrutinize both equally. In many cases, you seem to have no skepticism regarding Hamas' claims. And citing an NBC or other press story reporting what Hamas claims adds nothing. You (and the press) are just spreading propoganda.
Let's go point by point.
1. The goalpost shifting was replying to wifeisafurd's comment that Hamas represents a similar existential threat as the Nazi Germans did to the Jews, and that war crimes are a normal part of war. I didn't see any reply on that matter, and instead the conversation shifted. I don't like to reply to people that just keep shifting the conversation without responding to the point at hand. His comments also were devolving into more and more personal attacks and accusations, and his last reply made clear he wasn't interested in discussing ideas that made him uncomfortable, as he explicitly asked me not to reply to him.
2. The hospital bombing is going to remain disputed for the forseeable future. Here is what I do know about it.
IT WILL ONLY BE DISPUTED BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO REFUSE TO LOOK AT ACTUAL EVIDENCE - SEE MY PRIOR POST. THE REST OF WHAT YOU POSTED BELOW IS JUST SPECULATION/PERSONAL ATTACK ON NAFTALI AND INNUENDO. LOOK AT THE ACTUAL PHOTOS AND OTHER EVIDENCE - IT IS PRETTY CLEAR WHAT HAPPENED. AND LOOK AT THE ABSENCE OF ANY EVIDENCE PROVIDED BY HAMAS TO SUPPORT ITS CLAIM.
A. Hananya Naftali, a prominent Israeli social media influcer and IDF veteran, tweeted out and immediately deleted a post claiming credit for bombing the hospital right after the bombing occurred
Netanyahu-appointed Israeli Digital Spokesperson Hananya Naftali tweeted on 18 October 2023 admitting that Israel bombed the Baptist Hospital in Gaza, killing 500 civilians. He later deleted the tweet and blamed the attack on hamas after international outcry : r/ModernPropaganda (reddit.com)
(Please note before you make inferences about my sources that I had to do a Google images search for this, as I can't attach photos).
B. You may say well, what does Hananyan Naftali know as a comms guy? Hananyan Naftali is very close to Benjamin Netenyahu and has risen prominently in helping craft the public narrative around Israel and the Netenyahu administration. The rise of Hananya Naftali, social media star and pro-Israel influencer - JNS.org
How close is he to Netenyahu? Well, Netenyahu attended and toasted him at his wedding. He's not just some random comms guy. Prime Minister Netanyahu and Sara Bless Us At Our Wedding | Thank you Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and dear Sara for blessing us at our wedding. Truly amazing! India International | By Hananya Naftali | Facebook
C. What is he saying now? He's admitting that he tweeted and deleted claiming Israeli credit for bombing the hospital, and his story is now that he assumed it was a Hamas military cache, and that 'The IDF does not bomb hospitals.
Hananya Naftali on X: "Earlier today I shared a report that was published on @reuters about the bombing at the hospital in Gaza which falsely stated Israel struck the hospital. I mistakenly shared this information in a since deleted post in which I referenced Hamas' routine use of hospitals to storeā¦" / X (twitter.com)
D. Is that true? Does the IDF not bomb hospitals? Well, no. The IDF does bomb hospitals. You can say that Hamas uses them for military purposes, but that's a separate conversation. But the IDF does bomb hospitals, they have in the past, and they have in this conflict. They even bombed this very hospital twice earlier in the conflict, so-called 'knock on the roof bombs' encouraging the full evacuation and warning of a larger strike later.
WHY ARE HOSPITALS/SCHOOLS/MOSQUES BEING TARGETED? BECAUSE HAMAS IS USING THEM TO WAGE WAR WHICH MAKES THEM LEGITIMATE TARGETS. YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS CRITICAL FACT - THAT HAMAS USES THESE FACILITIES TO WAGE WAR - WHICH IS REALLY BEYOND DISPUTE. QUOTING FROM THIS LINK (WHICH RELATES TO UKRAINE):
"But humanitarian law is quite pragmatic so an exception applies when hospitals and mobile medical units are used, outside their humanitarian duty, to commit acts harmful to the enemy. The typical example would be the launching of an attack from a hospital. But even then, there must be a warning before the attack. If it remains unheeded and the hospital loses its protection, two fundamental principles of IHL apply to the attack:
- The principle of precaution, which requires the attacker to take all feasible precautions to minimise or avoid loss of lives and injury in the civilian population, as well as damage to civilian objects, for example by using sufficiently accurate weapons and munitions.
- The principle of proportionality, which requires ensuring that the attack will not cause excessive harm to civilians, compared to the anticipated military advantage."
Israel Airstrikes Tatter Strained Gaza Health Care System (theintercept.com) (2014)
Israel/Gaza: Attacks on medical facilities and civilians add to war crime allegations - Amnesty International (2014)
Nowhere to Hide in Gaza as Israeli Onslaught Continues - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (2023)
AHLI HOSPITAL STRUCK BY ROCKET FIRE | American Friends of the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem (afedj.org) - Al Ahil hospital struck by Israel in earlier attack on October 15th prior to October 17th attack.
E. So the IDF position that they don't bomb hospitals is not true. They have, and do, and in fact, bombed this very hospital just three days before. And a Netanyahu spokesperson took credit for bombing this hospital immediately after, then retracted the statement. Now we have heard a lot of conflicting information.
TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THIS IS NOT THE IDF POSITION - CITATION PLEASE. THE ISRAELI POSITION, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IS THAT IT ONLY TARGETS HOSPITALS, ETC. IF THEY ARE BEING USED FOR MILITARY PURPSOES. AGAIN, THAT IS AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION YOU IGNORE.
F. What is the conflicting information? Israel is saying it was a mis-fired Islamic Jihad missile. Let's suspend disbelief that an Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or other missile fired from Gaza at any point in time has ever been powerful enough to kill 500+, despite thousands having been launched over the years at Israel. Blaming Islamic Jihad is right out of the IDF playbook when an operation is met with public backlash. In 2022, the IDF killed 5 Palestinian children in a cemetary. Immediately, the IDF blamed Islamic Jihad, a group separate from Hamas. There was a lot of back and forth, a lot of conflicting reports, a lot of mis-information. Eventually, it was confirmed that the IDF did in fact kill 5 Palestinian boys that were visited a grave site to grieve. Gaza: Israel admits killing five children at cemetery after initially blaming Islamic Jihad | Middle East Eye
Similarly, when the IDF killed a prominent Palestinian-American journalist, they blamed Hamas, then said it's possible it was crossfire, before finally admitting it was likely accidental. Shireen Abu Akleh - Wikipedia
AS STATED ABOVE, CLAIMS BY ALL PARTIES SHOULD BE SCRUTINZED. THE IDF ADMITTED THE MISTAKE (BELATEDLY). THERE IS NO REASONABLE CLAIM THE JOURNALIST WAS TARGETED. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME HAMAS ADMITTED RESONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING - INCLUDING THE 30-40% OF THEIR MISSLES THAT FALL IN GAZA AND KILL THEIR OWN PEOPLE - LIKE YESTERDAY. CAN YOU CITE ONE EXAMPLE OF WHEN HAMAS HAS ADMITTED SUCH A THING?
G. I am well aware of what Israeli intelligence is purporting, and I'm also well-aware that as of this morning, the U.S. "has collected "high confidence" signals intelligence showing that the explosion at a Gaza hospital compound on Tuesday was caused by the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
I am also still waiting for the evidence of the weapons of mass destruction that were the impetus for the last twenty years of our foreign policy.
WMD - WHAT IN THE WORLD? YOU'RE INCREDICBLY SKEPTICAL OF US INTELLIGENCE, BUT HAPPY TO ADOPT WITHOUT QUESTION HAMAS CLAIMS. SERIOUSLY?,
I am also certain that this will continue to be debated for some time. DEBATED ONLY BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO REFUSE TO OBJECTIVELY EVALUATE THIRD PARTY EVIDENCE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT ADVANCE YOUR PREFERRED NARRATIVE. THE TWITTER THREAD I POSTED IS ONE OF LITERALLY HUNDREDS OUT THERE THAT DEBUNK THE HAMAS CLAIM. BUT HERE YOU ARE
3. The Israeli bombing of evacuating caravans report isn't disputed as far as I'm aware. Please point me in the direction if I'm mistaken. 70 killed after convoys of evacuees in Gaza hit by Israeli airstrikes (nbcnews.com)
YOU ARE MISTKEN. AS SIMPLE GOOGLE SEARCH CONFIRMS THERE IS AMPLE REPORTING DISPUTING THE IDEA THAT THE ISRAELI'S DID THIS. AGAIN - NO EVIDENCE OF A CRATER, NO EVIDENCE OF A ROCKET, ETC..
explosion looks like it came from the white van pic.twitter.com/nSTjTTX7WR
— Nathan J Hunt (@ISNJH) October 14, 2023
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12631081/Shocking-moment-convoy-cars-fleeing-Gaza-Strip-rocked-explosion-safe-route-north-ahead-anticipated-Israeli-ground-invasion.html
4. You start a straw-man argument by saying that I said Israel is trying to destroy a people, and then argue against a point I never made by showing the growth of the Palestinian population. Okay?
STRAWMAN? YOU MADE THIS EXACT POST IN THIS THREAD:
"How can we grieve the death of 1,300 Jews when they're used as a justification to destroy a people? "
https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/117254/replies/2245682
I said the following about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians: "humiliation, occupation, apartheid, collective punishment, physical and psychological torture'.
5. I don't really have an invested interest in Palestinian self-government in the same way I do the Israeli government. I'm not Palestinian, I'm not a Muslim, and my country doesn't actively participate in propping up the Palestinians as a military outpost with billions of dollars of aid, and with diplomatic cover in the UN. In that way, you can say that I'm biased and maybe even a little bit racist in that I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard than I hold Hamas, in large part because as a US taxpayer, I consider myself a stakeholder in the enterprises my tax dollars support.
IT IS INCREDIBLY ODD (AND PER THE INTERNATIONAL DEFITION, ANTI-SEMETIC) TO HOLD ISRAEL TO A DIFFERENT STANDARD WHILE BASICALLY IGNORING HAMAS TERRORISM AND ACTS OF WAR. BUT OK - THAT'S YOUR PERROGATIVE. AND FOR THE RECORD, YOU'RE WRONG - THE US HAS GIVEN BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY INCLUDING ANOTHER 100m TODAY.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ds_of_antisemitism
6. Are you arguing that the Gaza strip isn't occupied since Israel 'vacated' it in 2005? Is that a semantic argument or a real one? Semantically, sure, we can sure it's Israeli 'controlled' territory since Israel technically did cease to occupy the territory formally in their 2005 withdrawl. Are you suggesting though that Gaza is not occupied in every other sense of the word? That they're a self-sufficient nation? This is an extremist view that runs counter to the United Nations. Here is their take on it, not mine, take it up with them as Israeli occupation over Gaza isn't an opinion so much as an international fact. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/11297
I'M SAYING THAT PALESTINIANS HAVE AGENCY AND BEAR SIGNIFICANT RESPONSIBILTY/BLAME FOR THEIR OWN PLIGHT. ISRAEL WITHDREW IN 2005 - THE PALESTINANS COULD HAVE BUILD A THRIVING AREA THAT WOULD HAVE EVENTUALLY BEEN PART OF A STATE. INSTEAD THEY HAVE WAGED WAR ON ISRAEL - EXPLICITLY - AND ISRAEL REACTED TO ADDRESS IS SECURITY CONCERNS. JUST LIKE ANY COUNTRY WOULD.
7. I agree, Hamas is not the way forward for peace and is not in the best interest of the Palestinians. So what's my way forward? An independent Palestinian state.
Again, as a US citizen and therefore taxpaying stakeholder in the affairs of our client state Israel, my opinions are what Israel can do, and what we can allow them to do. As a Jew, I also have some particular thoughts. First and foremost, I truly believe that it is my and others responsibility to not let the pain of my ancestors, the atrocities of the Holocaust and the very real violence associated with anti-Semetism be weaponized to justify the subjugation of another people.
FINE TO EXPECT ACCOUNTABILITY FROM THE US/ISRAEL. BUT YOU ARE IN FACT WHITEWASHING PALESTINIANS ACTIONS. IT IS NOT THE PAIN OF YOUR ANCESTORS THAT IS DRIVING THE CURRENT VIOLENCE - IT IS THE ATTACK FROM LAST WEEK AND THE PAST 50+ YEARS OF AVOWED VIOLENCE INTENDED TO EXTERMINATE ISRAEL. VIRTUALLY NO ONE IS IN FAVOR OF THE SUBJOGATION OF PALESTINIANS - BUT LOTS OF PALESTINIANS ARE IN FAVOR OF THE EXTERMINATION OF ISRAEL/JEWS. YOU'RE APPROACH IS BOTH NAIVE AND DENIES THE CURRENT REALITIES.
As far as Hamas? Yes, I agree, they aren't serving the best interests of the Palestinians, and they need to go. But how did they get there? Why, they've risen in large part thanks to Benjamin Netenyahu, who legitimizes them as a partner, and urges their funding in order to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state. Don't beleive me? Here, he has said it himself. This isn't a conspiracy, these are his words:
"Those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas," he stated at a Likud party meeting in March 2019. "This is part of our strategy, to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria." - Benjamin Netenyahu
How Benjamin Netanyahu empowered Hamas... and broke Israel (telegraph.co.uk)
IF YOU AGREE HAMAS SHOULD BE REMOVED, THEN THE REST OF WHAT YOU POSTED IS IRRELEVANT. IF NEYANYAHU/ISREAL MADE MISTAKES OR HAD A CYNICAL STRATEGY, IT DOESN'T MATTER AT THIS POINT. HAMAS MUST BE REMOVED.
Israel has asymmetric military power relative to its peers, and largely in part because of US support. The war of 1967 shows that this is necessary for Israel to survive. However, Israel also has a responsibility to its citizens to behave as a good neighbor. Continued belligerence towards its neighboring nations and occupied Palestinian territories will only sow more conflict. If we just get rid of Hamas, bomb it into oblivion and kill thousands of Palestinians, in a few years, if we continue supporting the same Israeli policies, we will just have another Hamas, and another, and another, and each one will be worse and more desperate than the last.
So step one is to get rid of Netenyahu, then treat Palestinians as people with dignity and with a state, and continue to work towards a two state solution.
AGAIN - BIZARELY NAIVE AND COMPLETELY IGNORING ANY RESPONSIBLITY/AGENCY ON THE PALESTINIANS. ISRAEL HAS SHOWN ON BELIGERENCE TO NEIGHBORING 'NATIONS" - IT DIRECTS ITS IRE AND HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS AND OTHER SIMILAR GROUPS. IT HAS REACHED ACCORDS WITH ITS NEIGHBORS - NONE OF WHOM INCIDENTALLY SUPPORT THE PALESTINIANS IN ANY REAL WAY.
AND I'LL POINT OUT - YOU HAVE NO SOLUTION AS OT HOW GETTING RID OF NETENYAHU SOLVES THIS. YOU HATE HIM - SO IT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD. BUT THAT LITERALLY SOLVES NOTHING BECAUSE HAMAS AND HEZBOLLAH WILL STILL BE THERE. YOU HAVE NO SOLUTION - OTHER THAN MAKEING YOURSELF FEEL BETTER BECAUSE OF SOME STRANGE NOTION OF JEWISH GUILT. ISRAEL IS MORE POWERFUL - THANK GOD, BECAUSE IF IT WASN'T IT WOULDN'T BE THERE.
I BELIEVE IT IS SAM STEIN WHO POINTS OUT THAT ISRAEL HAS THE FULL ABILITY TO DESTROY AND KILL ALL PALESTINIANS, BUT IT HASN'T. IF YOU GAVE THAT SAME POWER TO THE PALESTINIANS, WHAT WOULD BE THE RESULT? THERE WOULD BE NO ISRAEL AND NO JEWS IN THE MIDDLE EAST - THAT IS THEIR GOAL. YET YOU WANT TO DRAW A MORAL EQUIVALENCY.
BEAR GOGGLES, THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY.BearGoggles said:KPG said:Let's go point by point.BearGoggles said:It is not moving the goalposts to point out that you made an unqualified claim (Israel bombed a hospital) and based on basically no information other than a very preliminary DISPTUED claim. And then you want to just gloss over that. You think that's good faith?KPG said:wifeisafurd said:Maybe the adults in the room are waiting for the evidence on who blew up the hospital, or is that so 2001? You're so blinded by your ideology you didn't even notice that there is a dispute as to whose missile hit the hospital. I might add the NYT withdrew its lead in about 2 hours, and now has a very different discussion of events as the US is reviewing Israel evidence that shows where the missile came from. But you, just double down. How Trump of you.KPG said:The old "Love it or leave it" schtick, is it 2001 or 2023?wifeisafurd said:It is a big bad world out there, but only the most clueless don't understand there always is retaliation. The aim of massive retaliation is to deter being attacked again. You can argue history and pick your time over the last 5,000 years that should matter, but you are where you are, and Israel has no real other options. For such a strategy to work, it must be made public knowledge to all possible aggressors (destruction of Gaza is for the eyes of other enemies and terror groups). The aggressor also must believe that the state announcing the policy has the ability to maintain multiple-strike capability. Hamas obviously knew that, and it is the legitimately elected representatives of the people in Gaza, so this was an attack by a government actor, not just a random group, and the dancing in the streets all over Gaza meant we approve and bring it on. Israel didn't just say we will be tit for tat, they declared war against a territory, and like the US and its allies in other wars, this war is aimed at regime change.KPG said:
Israel just bombed a hospital in Gaza City, and the AP is reporting over 500 were killed in the bombing, while other sources show over 1,000.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c
Hundreds of sick, injured, elderly refugees killed in an attack on a hospital. There is no moral equivocation or justification of this act. This has no place in modern society, and this will bring the region and us closer to war.
The Prime Minister of Israel is using dehumanization and broad othering language to differentiate Israel from "its enemies", tweeting out: "This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle". This language, reminiscent of the First Epistle to the Thessalonians of the New Testament, has been used to justify anti-Semitic attacks against Jews throughout ancient and contemporary history. This is the language you use to justify genocide, to justify racial and religious superiority and persecution. This language has no business coming from the Prime Minister of a Jewish state, and this language does not make me feel safer as a Jew.
If you value peace, your interests are not protected by the current far-right Israeli regime, and the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can tack towards peace.
The U.S. response to 9/11 included the American invasion of Afghanistan in league with the so-called Northern Alliance. Officially around 70,000K civilians lost their lives (probably more the 100K since counts in those regions historically are under measured). The rules of engagement for air strikes were amazingly relaxed resulting in bombing of civilian areas. The CIA armed and funded Afghan militia groups who have been implicated in grave human rights abuses and killings of civilians with the CIA's knowledge. The war has exacerbated the effects of poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to health care, and environmental degradation on Afghans' health. The immediate goals were to force the Taliban from power and destroy al-Qaida.
When Japanese bombed Peal Harbor, the US engaged in war with Japan. It was known policy that the allies would not take Japanese prisoners, which was completely buried by the US media. We dropped two atomic bombs on cites, and fire bombed many other Japanese cities. The civilian death toll in Japan was probably around 900,000 lives just from the bombings and you can add another 100,000 plus died from the atomic bombs.
Your continuous holy than thou act on moral equivocation and justification is wearing a little thin. As a Jew, you might want to take on judgment of the German Nazi experience. Like Hamas, the Nazi party advocating clear messages tailored to a broad range of people and their problems. Germany's standard of living was in a free fall due to sanctions placed on its economy by the World War 1 allies. The economic failure and a decline in living standards was associated with the Weimar democracy imposed by the Allies. By 1932, Germany had reached breaking point. The economic crisis and limits placed on the German economy, in turn led to widespread social and political unrest in Germany, and meant that Germany could no longer afford to pay reparations. Germany suffered the tyranny of the winning military power of France, England, the US, etc. The Nazi's took advantage poverty, unemployment, malnutrition, unrest, and all the other things that are in Gaza to win an election when Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing those who opposed him such as communists and socialists), and to eliminate the influence of Jewish. Just like Hamas, Hitler began dismantling democratic institutions and imprisoning or murdering his chief opponents. Just like Hamas. He then forced Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudetenland, where Germans lived in an occupied territory and were subject to [inset your wording on the "innocents" of Gaza under Israeli control} Next was atrocities committed against Jews Any of this sounding familiar? So yes, the world waited and waited like you want to do.
Wars that are based on revenge can be effective in punishing an enemy and for other reasons such as regime change, but they can also create a power vacuum that sparks a long, deadly conflict that fails to deliver sustainable stability. Europe and Japan became allies due to how the post-war was handled, to wit: put the areas under military control (thereby depriving the population of rights for some time), and ultimately to help rebuild.
The only successful conflict against a terrorist group in the past two decades, against the Islamic State group between 2014 and 2017, ended with both Raqqa in Syria and Mosul reduced to rubble and thousands of men, women, and children consigned to detention camps. There are people in speak in platitudes and outrage and accomplish nothing, and those that make the hard often necessary decisions. Israel with the support of the western world and other allies (and with winks from other neighbors such as the Egypt) is making what it thinks is the only decision it has (partly due to Israel's policies), and the consequences will be devastating to the civilian population, if Israel really intends to take out Hamas. The Gaza leadership, which is Hamas, didn't agree to an ethical fight. If you put in Hamas fighters behind humans shields, in Mosques, in schools, in hospitals, etc. you should expect casualties. But as they say on the school yard and in the UN, they are getting what they asked for.
In another post you said you pontificated " I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy." That is a tough one: have you thought about moving to say Switzerland?
I'm well versed in the history of the Holocaust. If you truly believe that Hamas and the blockaded, impoverished, ~2 million Palestinians living in squalor in a 140 square mile strip of land without a navy, without an air force, without ports, without a hope for a future represent the same existential threat to Jews as the 65 million Germans in a country ripe with natural resources spanning over180,999 square miles then I truly don't think any words I type will change your opinion of anything, you live in a world of pure imagination.
You posit that I'm clueless, holier than thou, and speak in platitudes while accomplishing nothing, and paint yourself as the pragmatist making hard choices, and go on to assert the necessity of bombing hospitals, dropping atomic bombs, and murdering civilians, while footnoting that the death and destruction is necessary "(partly due to Israel's policies)".
So pragmatism is waking up, putting on your big-boy pants, and bombing hospitals and killing civilians, while us wacky, clueless, holier than thou people pontificate about something as crazy as... changing those policies. Got it.
(edited to move my comment out of the quote text)
But yea, you don't seem to mind being a shill for Hamas and announcing what your county must be like, while ignoring the decisions your country made. Maybe I should add hypocrite to the list of words. Also, lose the term big boy pants - it is so 2010. As far as getting it, your idealism is overruling your common sense.
Move the goal posts, deflect from the topic we were discussing and pivot to a new one, and add in more personal attacks. Boring. Not worth a real reply.
Thanks to others who engage in good faith and have independent thoughts worth sharing. This thread is mostly very compelling and I appreciate actual intellectual pushback from those who help sharpen my own thinking.
Of equal note is the type of manifestly absurd statements you've made which evidence your bias. For example, that Israel is destroying a people. In 1948 here were less than 1M Palestinian refugees. Today there are over 5M. If Israel is destroying a people, they're really bad at it. And if that is the intent, why are they asking civilians to leave Northern Gaza? It is fair (perhaps) to criticize the way Israel is waging a war (and it is a declared war). It is not fair to ignore what Israel does to avoid civilian casualties which stands in stark contrast to Hamas targeting of civilians and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Do you know who has killed more Palestinians than Israel? Hamas and other terrorist groups, not to mention many other Arabs! Hamas has done so directly to impose their rule by force and notably with rockets aimed at Israel that fall short and land in Gaza. The hospital bombing today appears to be exactly that. Yet there you are, making unqualified assertions that back up your bias.
It seems pretty clear your news sources are off or you are totally incapable of acknowledging nuance. There are UNSUBSTANTIATED Hamas claims that Israel bombed fleeing caravans - you state that as a fact. Those claims have been largely debunked - but if you prefer at a minimum they are hotly in dispute and there is no evidence of such bombings. Yet, like the hospital bombing, you adopt the propaganda unquestionably and use it to support your distorted views.
You also accuse Israel of occupying Gaza (despite the 2005 withdrawal), repeat allegations of apartheid and "war crimes", and then make the odd claim that Israel's alleged actions have "taken away even my ability to grieve for my fellow Jews". This is the most bizarre white washing and victim blaming I have seen in some time. Only "the jews" are at fault? You feels the sads for the Palestinians, but not the Jews? The innocent Israeli civilians (most of whom were, ironically, of the left) are totally undeserving of any of your sympathy?
And you offer literally NO proposed solution. What would you have Israel do in the face of two organizations (Hezbollah and Hamas) who, based on religion (and exhibiting the same religious zealotry you accuse Netanyahu of) are INTRACTIBLY against the existence of Israel and the presence of Jews in that area. That is the side you've picked - the side you feel bad for. What is your solution in dealing with these terrorists?
I feel bad for all parties. The Palestinians have endured decades of suffering in large part because their leaders (including Hamas) have failed them. Israel has contributed to that suffering and bears some blame. But don't white wash what certain Palestinians (those supporting violence and terrorism and corrupt leadership) have done (and failed to do).
If you truly cared about the Palestinian people, you'd spend less time demonizing Israel (and the USA) and instead advocate for the type of change that will actually elevate their standard of living - starting with the removal of Hamas.
1. The goalpost shifting was replying to wifeisafurd's comment that Hamas represents a similar existential threat as the Nazi Germans did to the Jews, and that war crimes are a normal part of war. I didn't see any reply on that matter, and instead the conversation shifted. I don't like to reply to people that just keep shifting the conversation without responding to the point at hand. His comments also were devolving into more and more personal attacks and accusations, and his last reply made clear he wasn't interested in discussing ideas that made him uncomfortable, as he explicitly asked me not to reply to him.
2. The hospital bombing is going to remain disputed for the forseeable future. Here is what I do know about it.
A. Hananya Naftali, a prominent Israeli social media influcer and IDF veteran, tweeted out and immediately deleted a post claiming credit for bombing the hospital right after the bombing occurred
Netanyahu-appointed Israeli Digital Spokesperson Hananya Naftali tweeted on 18 October 2023 admitting that Israel bombed the Baptist Hospital in Gaza, killing 500 civilians. He later deleted the tweet and blamed the attack on hamas after international outcry : r/ModernPropaganda (reddit.com)
(Please note before you make inferences about my sources that I had to do a Google images search for this, as I can't attach photos).
B. You may say well, what does Hananyan Naftali know as a comms guy? Hananyan Naftali is very close to Benjamin Netenyahu and has risen prominently in helping craft the public narrative around Israel and the Netenyahu administration. The rise of Hananya Naftali, social media star and pro-Israel influencer - JNS.org
How close is he to Netenyahu? Well, Netenyahu attended and toasted him at his wedding. He's not just some random comms guy. Prime Minister Netanyahu and Sara Bless Us At Our Wedding | Thank you Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and dear Sara for blessing us at our wedding. Truly amazing! India International | By Hananya Naftali | Facebook
C. What is he saying now? He's admitting that he tweeted and deleted claiming Israeli credit for bombing the hospital, and his story is now that he assumed it was a Hamas military cache, and that 'The IDF does not bomb hospitals.
Hananya Naftali on X: "Earlier today I shared a report that was published on @reuters about the bombing at the hospital in Gaza which falsely stated Israel struck the hospital. I mistakenly shared this information in a since deleted post in which I referenced Hamas' routine use of hospitals to storeā¦" / X (twitter.com)
D. Is that true? Does the IDF not bomb hospitals? Well, no. The IDF does bomb hospitals. You can say that Hamas uses them for military purposes, but that's a separate conversation. But the IDF does bomb hospitals, they have in the past, and they have in this conflict. They even bombed this very hospital twice earlier in the conflict, so-called 'knock on the roof bombs' encouraging the full evacuation and warning of a larger strike later.
Israel Airstrikes Tatter Strained Gaza Health Care System (theintercept.com) (2014)
Israel/Gaza: Attacks on medical facilities and civilians add to war crime allegations - Amnesty International (2014)
Nowhere to Hide in Gaza as Israeli Onslaught Continues - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (2023)
AHLI HOSPITAL STRUCK BY ROCKET FIRE | American Friends of the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem (afedj.org) - Al Ahil hospital struck by Israel in earlier attack on October 15th prior to October 17th attack.
E. So the IDF position that they don't bomb hospitals is not true. They have, and do, and in fact, bombed this very hospital just three days before. And a Netanyahu spokesperson took credit for bombing this hospital immediately after, then retracted the statement. Now we have heard a lot of conflicting information.
F. What is the conflicting information? Israel is saying it was a mis-fired Islamic Jihad missile. Let's suspend disbelief that an Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or other missile fired from Gaza at any point in time has ever been powerful enough to kill 500+, despite thousands having been launched over the years at Israel. Blaming Islamic Jihad is right out of the IDF playbook when an operation is met with public backlash. In 2022, the IDF killed 5 Palestinian children in a cemetary. Immediately, the IDF blamed Islamic Jihad, a group separate from Hamas. There was a lot of back and forth, a lot of conflicting reports, a lot of mis-information. Eventually, it was confirmed that the IDF did in fact kill 5 Palestinian boys that were visited a grave site to grieve. Gaza: Israel admits killing five children at cemetery after initially blaming Islamic Jihad | Middle East Eye
Similarly, when the IDF killed a prominent Palestinian-American journalist, they blamed Hamas, then said it's possible it was crossfire, before finally admitting it was likely accidental. Shireen Abu Akleh - Wikipedia
G. I am well aware of what Israeli intelligence is purporting, and I'm also well-aware that as of this morning, the U.S. "has collected "high confidence" signals intelligence showing that the explosion at a Gaza hospital compound on Tuesday was caused by the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
I am also still waiting for the evidence of the weapons of mass destruction that were the impetus for the last twenty years of our foreign policy.
I am also certain that this will continue to be debated for some time.
3. The Israeli bombing of evacuating caravans report isn't disputed as far as I'm aware. Please point me in the direction if I'm mistaken. 70 killed after convoys of evacuees in Gaza hit by Israeli airstrikes (nbcnews.com)
4. You start a straw-man argument by saying that I said Israel is trying to destroy a people, and then argue against a point I never made by showing the growth of the Palestinian population. Okay?
I said the following about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians: "humiliation, occupation, apartheid, collective punishment, physical and psychological torture'.
5. I don't really have an invested interest in Palestinian self-government in the same way I do the Israeli government. I'm not Palestinian, I'm not a Muslim, and my country doesn't actively participate in propping up the Palestinians as a military outpost with billions of dollars of aid, and with diplomatic cover in the UN. In that way, you can say that I'm biased and maybe even a little bit racist in that I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard than I hold Hamas, in large part because as a US taxpayer, I consider myself a stakeholder in the enterprises my tax dollars support.
6. Are you arguing that the Gaza strip isn't occupied since Israel 'vacated' it in 2005? Is that a semantic argument or a real one? Semantically, sure, we can sure it's Israeli 'controlled' territory since Israel technically did cease to occupy the territory formally in their 2005 withdrawl. Are you suggesting though that Gaza is not occupied in every other sense of the word? That they're a self-sufficient nation? This is an extremist view that runs counter to the United Nations. Here is their take on it, not mine, take it up with them as Israeli occupation over Gaza isn't an opinion so much as an international fact. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/11297
7. I agree, Hamas is not the way forward for peace and is not in the best interest of the Palestinians. So what's my way forward? An independent Palestinian state.
Again, as a US citizen and therefore taxpaying stakeholder in the affairs of our client state Israel, my opinions are what Israel can do, and what we can allow them to do. As a Jew, I also have some particular thoughts. First and foremost, I truly believe that it is my and others responsibility to not let the pain of my ancestors, the atrocities of the Holocaust and the very real violence associated with anti-Semetism be weaponized to justify the subjugation of another people.
As far as Hamas? Yes, I agree, they aren't serving the best interests of the Palestinians, and they need to go. But how did they get there? Why, they've risen in large part thanks to Benjamin Netenyahu, who legitimizes them as a partner, and urges their funding in order to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state. Don't beleive me? Here, he has said it himself. This isn't a conspiracy, these are his words:
"Those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas," he stated at a Likud party meeting in March 2019. "This is part of our strategy, to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria." - Benjamin Netenyahu
How Benjamin Netanyahu empowered Hamas... and broke Israel (telegraph.co.uk)
Israel has asymmetric military power relative to its peers, and largely in part because of US support. The war of 1967 shows that this is necessary for Israel to survive. However, Israel also has a responsibility to its citizens to behave as a good neighbor. Continued belligerence towards its neighboring nations and occupied Palestinian territories will only sow more conflict. If we just get rid of Hamas, bomb it into oblivion and kill thousands of Palestinians, in a few years, if we continue supporting the same Israeli policies, we will just have another Hamas, and another, and another, and each one will be worse and more desperate than the last.
So step one is to get rid of Netenyahu, then treat Palestinians as people with dignity and with a state, and continue to work towards a two state solution.
I'm happy to respond point by point. But I want to make a larger observation first - we should doubt any claims made by Hamas and the IDF. We should scrutinize both equally. In many cases, you seem to have no skepticism regarding Hamas' claims. And citing an NBC or other press story reporting what Hamas claims adds nothing. You (and the press) are just spreading propoganda.
Let's go point by point.
1. The goalpost shifting was replying to wifeisafurd's comment that Hamas represents a similar existential threat as the Nazi Germans did to the Jews, and that war crimes are a normal part of war. I didn't see any reply on that matter, and instead the conversation shifted. I don't like to reply to people that just keep shifting the conversation without responding to the point at hand. His comments also were devolving into more and more personal attacks and accusations, and his last reply made clear he wasn't interested in discussing ideas that made him uncomfortable, as he explicitly asked me not to reply to him.
2. The hospital bombing is going to remain disputed for the forseeable future. Here is what I do know about it.
IT WILL ONLY BE DISPUTED BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO REFUSE TO LOOK AT ACTUAL EVIDENCE - SEE MY PRIOR POST. THE REST OF WHAT YOU POSTED BELOW IS JUST SPECULATION/PERSONAL ATTACK ON NAFTALI AND INNUENDO. LOOK AT THE ACTUAL PHOTOS AND OTHER EVIDENCE - IT IS PRETTY CLEAR WHAT HAPPENED. AND LOOK AT THE ABSENCE OF ANY EVIDENCE PROVIDED BY HAMAS TO SUPPORT ITS CLAIM.
A. Hananya Naftali, a prominent Israeli social media influcer and IDF veteran, tweeted out and immediately deleted a post claiming credit for bombing the hospital right after the bombing occurred
Netanyahu-appointed Israeli Digital Spokesperson Hananya Naftali tweeted on 18 October 2023 admitting that Israel bombed the Baptist Hospital in Gaza, killing 500 civilians. He later deleted the tweet and blamed the attack on hamas after international outcry : r/ModernPropaganda (reddit.com)
(Please note before you make inferences about my sources that I had to do a Google images search for this, as I can't attach photos).
B. You may say well, what does Hananyan Naftali know as a comms guy? Hananyan Naftali is very close to Benjamin Netenyahu and has risen prominently in helping craft the public narrative around Israel and the Netenyahu administration. The rise of Hananya Naftali, social media star and pro-Israel influencer - JNS.org
How close is he to Netenyahu? Well, Netenyahu attended and toasted him at his wedding. He's not just some random comms guy. Prime Minister Netanyahu and Sara Bless Us At Our Wedding | Thank you Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and dear Sara for blessing us at our wedding. Truly amazing! India International | By Hananya Naftali | Facebook
C. What is he saying now? He's admitting that he tweeted and deleted claiming Israeli credit for bombing the hospital, and his story is now that he assumed it was a Hamas military cache, and that 'The IDF does not bomb hospitals.
Hananya Naftali on X: "Earlier today I shared a report that was published on @reuters about the bombing at the hospital in Gaza which falsely stated Israel struck the hospital. I mistakenly shared this information in a since deleted post in which I referenced Hamas' routine use of hospitals to storeā¦" / X (twitter.com)
D. Is that true? Does the IDF not bomb hospitals? Well, no. The IDF does bomb hospitals. You can say that Hamas uses them for military purposes, but that's a separate conversation. But the IDF does bomb hospitals, they have in the past, and they have in this conflict. They even bombed this very hospital twice earlier in the conflict, so-called 'knock on the roof bombs' encouraging the full evacuation and warning of a larger strike later.
WHY ARE HOSPITALS/SCHOOLS/MOSQUES BEING TARGETED? BECAUSE HAMAS IS USING THEM TO WAGE WAR WHICH MAKES THEM LEGITIMATE TARGETS. YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS CRITICAL FACT - THAT HAMAS USES THESE FACILITIES TO WAGE WAR - WHICH IS REALLY BEYOND DISPUTE. QUOTING FROM THIS LINK (WHICH RELATES TO UKRAINE):
"But humanitarian law is quite pragmatic so an exception applies when hospitals and mobile medical units are used, outside their humanitarian duty, to commit acts harmful to the enemy. The typical example would be the launching of an attack from a hospital. But even then, there must be a warning before the attack. If it remains unheeded and the hospital loses its protection, two fundamental principles of IHL apply to the attack:
- The principle of precaution, which requires the attacker to take all feasible precautions to minimise or avoid loss of lives and injury in the civilian population, as well as damage to civilian objects, for example by using sufficiently accurate weapons and munitions.
- The principle of proportionality, which requires ensuring that the attack will not cause excessive harm to civilians, compared to the anticipated military advantage."
Israel Airstrikes Tatter Strained Gaza Health Care System (theintercept.com) (2014)
Israel/Gaza: Attacks on medical facilities and civilians add to war crime allegations - Amnesty International (2014)
Nowhere to Hide in Gaza as Israeli Onslaught Continues - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (2023)
AHLI HOSPITAL STRUCK BY ROCKET FIRE | American Friends of the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem (afedj.org) - Al Ahil hospital struck by Israel in earlier attack on October 15th prior to October 17th attack.
E. So the IDF position that they don't bomb hospitals is not true. They have, and do, and in fact, bombed this very hospital just three days before. And a Netanyahu spokesperson took credit for bombing this hospital immediately after, then retracted the statement. Now we have heard a lot of conflicting information.
TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THIS IS NOT THE IDF POSITION - CITATION PLEASE. THE ISRAELI POSITION, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IS THAT IT ONLY TARGETS HOSPITALS, ETC. IF THEY ARE BEING USED FOR MILITARY PURPSOES. AGAIN, THAT IS AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION YOU IGNORE.
F. What is the conflicting information? Israel is saying it was a mis-fired Islamic Jihad missile. Let's suspend disbelief that an Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or other missile fired from Gaza at any point in time has ever been powerful enough to kill 500+, despite thousands having been launched over the years at Israel. Blaming Islamic Jihad is right out of the IDF playbook when an operation is met with public backlash. In 2022, the IDF killed 5 Palestinian children in a cemetary. Immediately, the IDF blamed Islamic Jihad, a group separate from Hamas. There was a lot of back and forth, a lot of conflicting reports, a lot of mis-information. Eventually, it was confirmed that the IDF did in fact kill 5 Palestinian boys that were visited a grave site to grieve. Gaza: Israel admits killing five children at cemetery after initially blaming Islamic Jihad | Middle East Eye
Similarly, when the IDF killed a prominent Palestinian-American journalist, they blamed Hamas, then said it's possible it was crossfire, before finally admitting it was likely accidental. Shireen Abu Akleh - Wikipedia
AS STATED ABOVE, CLAIMS BY ALL PARTIES SHOULD BE SCRUTINZED. THE IDF ADMITTED THE MISTAKE (BELATEDLY). THERE IS NO REASONABLE CLAIM THE JOURNALIST WAS TARGETED. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME HAMAS ADMITTED RESONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING - INCLUDING THE 30-40% OF THEIR MISSLES THAT FALL IN GAZA AND KILL THEIR OWN PEOPLE - LIKE YESTERDAY. CAN YOU CITE ONE EXAMPLE OF WHEN HAMAS HAS ADMITTED SUCH A THING?
G. I am well aware of what Israeli intelligence is purporting, and I'm also well-aware that as of this morning, the U.S. "has collected "high confidence" signals intelligence showing that the explosion at a Gaza hospital compound on Tuesday was caused by the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
I am also still waiting for the evidence of the weapons of mass destruction that were the impetus for the last twenty years of our foreign policy.
WMD - WHAT IN THE WORLD? YOU'RE INCREDICBLY SKEPTICAL OF US INTELLIGENCE, BUT HAPPY TO ADOPT WITHOUT QUESTION HAMAS CLAIMS. SERIOUSLY?,
I am also certain that this will continue to be debated for some time. DEBATED ONLY BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO REFUSE TO OBJECTIVELY EVALUATE THIRD PARTY EVIDENCE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT ADVANCE YOUR PREFERRED NARRATIVE. THE TWITTER THREAD I POSTED IS ONE OF LITERALLY HUNDREDS OUT THERE THAT DEBUNK THE HAMAS CLAIM. BUT HERE YOU ARE
3. The Israeli bombing of evacuating caravans report isn't disputed as far as I'm aware. Please point me in the direction if I'm mistaken. 70 killed after convoys of evacuees in Gaza hit by Israeli airstrikes (nbcnews.com)
YOU ARE MISTKEN. AS SIMPLE GOOGLE SEARCH CONFIRMS THERE IS AMPLE REPORTING DISPUTING THE IDEA THAT THE ISRAELI'S DID THIS. AGAIN - NO EVIDENCE OF A CRATER, NO EVIDENCE OF A ROCKET, ETC..explosion looks like it came from the white van pic.twitter.com/nSTjTTX7WR
— Nathan J Hunt (@ISNJH) October 14, 2023No Projectile in a 30fps scene? https://t.co/do6E2ijLjM pic.twitter.com/kXAxvUjWaq
— Aurora Intel (@AuroraIntel) October 14, 2023
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12631081/Shocking-moment-convoy-cars-fleeing-Gaza-Strip-rocked-explosion-safe-route-north-ahead-anticipated-Israeli-ground-invasion.html
4. You start a straw-man argument by saying that I said Israel is trying to destroy a people, and then argue against a point I never made by showing the growth of the Palestinian population. Okay?
STRAWMAN? YOU MADE THIS EXACT POST IN THIS THREAD:
"How can we grieve the death of 1,300 Jews when they're used as a justification to destroy a people? "
https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/117254/replies/2245682
I said the following about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians: "humiliation, occupation, apartheid, collective punishment, physical and psychological torture'.
5. I don't really have an invested interest in Palestinian self-government in the same way I do the Israeli government. I'm not Palestinian, I'm not a Muslim, and my country doesn't actively participate in propping up the Palestinians as a military outpost with billions of dollars of aid, and with diplomatic cover in the UN. In that way, you can say that I'm biased and maybe even a little bit racist in that I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard than I hold Hamas, in large part because as a US taxpayer, I consider myself a stakeholder in the enterprises my tax dollars support.
IT IS INCREDIBLY ODD (AND PER THE INTERNATIONAL DEFITION, ANTI-SEMETIC) TO HOLD ISRAEL TO A DIFFERENT STANDARD WHILE BASICALLY IGNORING HAMAS TERRORISM AND ACTS OF WAR. BUT OK - THAT'S YOUR PERROGATIVE. AND FOR THE RECORD, YOU'RE WRONG - THE US HAS GIVEN BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY INCLUDING ANOTHER 100m TODAY.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ds_of_antisemitism
6. Are you arguing that the Gaza strip isn't occupied since Israel 'vacated' it in 2005? Is that a semantic argument or a real one? Semantically, sure, we can sure it's Israeli 'controlled' territory since Israel technically did cease to occupy the territory formally in their 2005 withdrawl. Are you suggesting though that Gaza is not occupied in every other sense of the word? That they're a self-sufficient nation? This is an extremist view that runs counter to the United Nations. Here is their take on it, not mine, take it up with them as Israeli occupation over Gaza isn't an opinion so much as an international fact. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/11297
I'M SAYING THAT PALESTINIANS HAVE AGENCY AND BEAR SIGNIFICANT RESPONSIBILTY/BLAME FOR THEIR OWN PLIGHT. ISRAEL WITHDREW IN 2005 - THE PALESTINANS COULD HAVE BUILD A THRIVING AREA THAT WOULD HAVE EVENTUALLY BEEN PART OF A STATE. INSTEAD THEY HAVE WAGED WAR ON ISRAEL - EXPLICITLY - AND ISRAEL REACTED TO ADDRESS IS SECURITY CONCERNS. JUST LIKE ANY COUNTRY WOULD.
7. I agree, Hamas is not the way forward for peace and is not in the best interest of the Palestinians. So what's my way forward? An independent Palestinian state.
Again, as a US citizen and therefore taxpaying stakeholder in the affairs of our client state Israel, my opinions are what Israel can do, and what we can allow them to do. As a Jew, I also have some particular thoughts. First and foremost, I truly believe that it is my and others responsibility to not let the pain of my ancestors, the atrocities of the Holocaust and the very real violence associated with anti-Semetism be weaponized to justify the subjugation of another people.
FINE TO EXPECT ACCOUNTABILITY FROM THE US/ISRAEL. BUT YOU ARE IN FACT WHITEWASHING PALESTINIANS ACTIONS. IT IS NOT THE PAIN OF YOUR ANCESTORS THAT IS DRIVING THE CURRENT VIOLENCE - IT IS THE ATTACK FROM LAST WEEK AND THE PAST 50+ YEARS OF AVOWED VIOLENCE INTENDED TO EXTERMINATE ISRAEL. VIRTUALLY NO ONE IS IN FAVOR OF THE SUBJOGATION OF PALESTINIANS - BUT LOTS OF PALESTINIANS ARE IN FAVOR OF THE EXTERMINATION OF ISRAEL/JEWS. YOU'RE APPROACH IS BOTH NAIVE AND DENIES THE CURRENT REALITIES.
As far as Hamas? Yes, I agree, they aren't serving the best interests of the Palestinians, and they need to go. But how did they get there? Why, they've risen in large part thanks to Benjamin Netenyahu, who legitimizes them as a partner, and urges their funding in order to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state. Don't beleive me? Here, he has said it himself. This isn't a conspiracy, these are his words:
"Those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas," he stated at a Likud party meeting in March 2019. "This is part of our strategy, to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria." - Benjamin Netenyahu
How Benjamin Netanyahu empowered Hamas... and broke Israel (telegraph.co.uk)
IF YOU AGREE HAMAS SHOULD BE REMOVED, THEN THE REST OF WHAT YOU POSTED IS IRRELEVANT. IF NEYANYAHU/ISREAL MADE MISTAKES OR HAD A CYNICAL STRATEGY, IT DOESN'T MATTER AT THIS POINT. HAMAS MUST BE REMOVED.
Israel has asymmetric military power relative to its peers, and largely in part because of US support. The war of 1967 shows that this is necessary for Israel to survive. However, Israel also has a responsibility to its citizens to behave as a good neighbor. Continued belligerence towards its neighboring nations and occupied Palestinian territories will only sow more conflict. If we just get rid of Hamas, bomb it into oblivion and kill thousands of Palestinians, in a few years, if we continue supporting the same Israeli policies, we will just have another Hamas, and another, and another, and each one will be worse and more desperate than the last.
So step one is to get rid of Netenyahu, then treat Palestinians as people with dignity and with a state, and continue to work towards a two state solution.
AGAIN - BIZARELY NAIVE AND COMPLETELY IGNORING ANY RESPONSIBLITY/AGENCY ON THE PALESTINIANS. ISRAEL HAS SHOWN ON BELIGERENCE TO NEIGHBORING 'NATIONS" - IT DIRECTS ITS IRE AND HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS AND OTHER SIMILAR GROUPS. IT HAS REACHED ACCORDS WITH ITS NEIGHBORS - NONE OF WHOM INCIDENTALLY SUPPORT THE PALESTINIANS IN ANY REAL WAY.
AND I'LL POINT OUT - YOU HAVE NO SOLUTION AS OT HOW GETTING RID OF NETENYAHU SOLVES THIS. YOU HATE HIM - SO IT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD. BUT THAT LITERALLY SOLVES NOTHING BECAUSE HAMAS AND HEZBOLLAH WILL STILL BE THERE. YOU HAVE NO SOLUTION - OTHER THAN MAKEING YOURSELF FEEL BETTER BECAUSE OF SOME STRANGE NOTION OF JEWISH GUILT. ISRAEL IS MORE POWERFUL - THANK GOD, BECAUSE IF IT WASN'T IT WOULDN'T BE THERE.
I BELIEVE IT IS SAM STEIN WHO POINTS OUT THAT ISRAEL HAS THE FULL ABILITY TO DESTROY AND KILL ALL PALESTINIANS, BUT IT HASN'T. IF YOU GAVE THAT SAME POWER TO THE PALESTINIANS, WHAT WOULD BE THE RESULT? THERE WOULD BE NO ISRAEL AND NO JEWS IN THE MIDDLE EAST - THAT IS THEIR GOAL. YET YOU WANT TO DRAW A MORAL EQUIVALENCY.
1. I MADE NO PERSONAL ATTACK WHATSOEVER ON NAFTALI NOR DID I PUT IN ANY INNUENDO. I STATED FACTS ABOUT HIM. I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU FIND FACTS ABOUT WHAT HE HAS SAID AND WHAT HE IS CONTINUING TO SAY TO BE INNUENDO OR ATTACKS.
2. THE PROOF YOU HAVE SHOWN IS NOT PROOF, IT IS OSINT CLICKBAIT, ISRAELI PRODUCED RECORDING OF A CALL THEY SUPPOSEDLY HAVE RECORDED OF THE EXACT PEOPLE LAUNCHING THIS EXACT STRIKE, AND A THEORY THAT ONE MISSILE FROM A NEARBY LAUNCH AT A SIMILAR TIME FROM EDITED VIDEO REMOVING CORRELATES TO SMOKING GUN EVIDENCE. I CAN PRODUCE SIMILAR COMPELLING OSINT CLICKBAIT LINKS OF SIMILAR BUT DIFFERENTLY EDITED VIDEOS WITH EQUALLY CONFIDENT OSITN CLICKBAIT NARRARATORS DRAWING COMPLETELY DIFERENT CONCLUSIONS. AS A NOD TO YOUR INTELIGENCE I WILL SPARE YOU THE VOODOO OSINT THEATER DANCE AND I WOULD APPRECIATE YOU SHOW ME THE SAME COURTESY.
3. THE NETANYAHU SPOKESPERSON NAFTALI IS THE ONE THAT STATED "AS THE IDF DOES NOT BOMB HOSPITALS, I ASSUMED ISRAEL WAS TARGETING ONE OF THE HAMAS BASES IN GAZA" YOU CAN TAKE IT UP WITH NAFTALI AND NETANYAHU ON WHETHER IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR HIM TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE IDF, BUT HE CURRENTLY IS DOING JUST THAT.
4. THERE IS NO REASONABLE CLAIM THE JOURNALIST WAS TARGETED IS NOT FACTUALLY TRUE. THERE IS A LOT OF REASONABLE CLAIMS. HERE IS ONE OF THEM: https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/24/middleeast/shireen-abu-akleh-jenin-killing-investigation-cmd-intl/index.html
5. SUGGESTING THAT I BLINDLY FOLLOW HAMAS PROPOGANDA IS AN ACCUSATION AND NOT TRUE. YOU HAVE NO INSIGHT INTO THE BREADTH OF THE INFORMATION I CONSUME AND I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULDN'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS AND ACCUSATIONS. I DO NOT ACCUSE YOU OF BLINDLY FOLLOWING PROPAGANDA, AND I WOULD APPRECIATE IF YOU WOULD SHOW ME THE SAME COMMON COURTESY. ARE YOU QUESTIONING WHY I AM SKEPTICAL OF US INTELLIGENCE RELATIVE TO THE ISSUE OF WMDS? I WILL ASSUME NOT.
6. YOU ARE RIGHT I DID USE THAT WORD DESTROY, I WILL BE CAREFUL WITH THE LANGUAGE I USE MOVING FORWARD, THANK YOU FOR POINTING IT OUT TO ME. I WAS NOT BEING PURPOSEFULLY EVASIVE I WAS MISTAKEN.
7. I DON'T FIND IT ODD TO HAVE MORE OF A VESTED INTEREST AND A MORE OF A LEGITIMATE POINT OF VIEW IN MATTERS RELATED TO PEOPLE MORE SIMILAR TO ME AND FUNDED MORE BY MY GOVERNMENT. WHEN THE US PARKS TWO AIR CRAFT CARRIERS OUTSIDE OF PALESTINE FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSES OF DEFENDING THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE'S INTERESTS, I WILL BE SURE TO HAVE MORE OF A POINT OF VIEW ON WHAT STEPS THEY SHOULD TAKE AS A PEOPLE. I CATEGORICALLY REJECT YOUR CLAIMS THAT MY INTEREST IN A COUNTRY FOUNDED IN THE NAME OF MY RELIGION FUNDED DISPROPORTIONALLY AND SUPPORTED DISPROPORTIONATELY MILITARILY BY MY GOVERNMENT IS ANTI-SEMETIC. I AM AWARE THAT FOREIGN AID GOES TO LOTS OF PLACES, INCLUDING THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.
8. PALESTINIANS ARE THE OCCUPIED PARTY, ISRAEL IS THE OCCUPYING PARTY. ISRAEL AND THE US BEARS DISPROPORTIONATE RESPONSIBILITY GIVEN THIS POWER IMBALANCE.
THE ATTACK OF LAST WEEK IS RELATED TO THE TREATMENT AND SUBJIGATION OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, WHICH IS RELATED TO PRIOR ATTACKS ON ISRAEL, WHICH IS RELATED TO PRIOR ATTACKS BY ISRAEL, WHICH IS RELATED TO... BLAME DOES NOT RESET OR GET ABSOLVED ON EITHER SIDE AT THE BEGINNING OF EACH NEW CONFLICT.
9. HOW IS WHAT I POSTED ABOUT NETANYAHU SUPPORTING AIDING ABETTING AND LEGITIMIZING HAMAS NOT RELEVANT TO GETTING RID OF HAMAS? THAT IS PREPOSTOROUS. "THE PROBLEMS ARE BAD, BUT THE THINGS HELPING CREATE THE PROBLEMS ARE IRRELEVANT?!"
10. WE CAN GO AROUND AND AROUND AND I ALREADY ADDRESSED THIS IN MY PREVIOUS POST. IF ISRAEL COMPLETELY DESTROYS HAMAS, THEN WHAT? WILL THERE BE PEACE IF ISRAEL AND THE US CONTINUE TO ACT IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER AS THEY ARE REGARDING ACTIVELY WORKING TO THWART THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION? DO YOU BELEIVE THAT? DO YOU BELEIVE THAT ONCE HAMAS IS GONE, THERE WILL BE PROSPERITY IN PALESTINE AND PEACE IN ISRAEL?
11. THERE ARE A MILLION HYPOTHETICAL SITUATIONS AND SCENARIOS WE COULD CREATE AND DRAW OUR OWN MORAL CONCLUSIONS FROM THEM. IF WE ARE TO DISREGARD THE CURRENT REALITY AND SPECULATE ABOUT A FICTITIOUS ONE, WE COULD ALSO ARGUE OVER THE FACT THAT JEWS LIVED BY THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS IN THE ARAB WORLD PRIOR TO THE CREATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. BUT WHY ARGUE ABOUT PRETEND REALITIES WHEN WE HAVE SO MUCH GROUND TO COVER IN THIS ONE?
First, you ignored a whole bunch of discussion on the about the hospital bombing by acting outraged, and second you now say the goal post moving part of my discussion is about existential threats by Nazi's and war crimes are part of war, so again you could ignore push back on your views.KPG said:Let's go point by point.BearGoggles said:It is not moving the goalposts to point out that you made an unqualified claim (Israel bombed a hospital) and based on basically no information other than a very preliminary DISPTUED claim. And then you want to just gloss over that. You think that's good faith?KPG said:wifeisafurd said:Maybe the adults in the room are waiting for the evidence on who blew up the hospital, or is that so 2001? You're so blinded by your ideology you didn't even notice that there is a dispute as to whose missile hit the hospital. I might add the NYT withdrew its lead in about 2 hours, and now has a very different discussion of events as the US is reviewing Israel evidence that shows where the missile came from. But you, just double down. How Trump of you.KPG said:The old "Love it or leave it" schtick, is it 2001 or 2023?wifeisafurd said:It is a big bad world out there, but only the most clueless don't understand there always is retaliation. The aim of massive retaliation is to deter being attacked again. You can argue history and pick your time over the last 5,000 years that should matter, but you are where you are, and Israel has no real other options. For such a strategy to work, it must be made public knowledge to all possible aggressors (destruction of Gaza is for the eyes of other enemies and terror groups). The aggressor also must believe that the state announcing the policy has the ability to maintain multiple-strike capability. Hamas obviously knew that, and it is the legitimately elected representatives of the people in Gaza, so this was an attack by a government actor, not just a random group, and the dancing in the streets all over Gaza meant we approve and bring it on. Israel didn't just say we will be tit for tat, they declared war against a territory, and like the US and its allies in other wars, this war is aimed at regime change.KPG said:
Israel just bombed a hospital in Gaza City, and the AP is reporting over 500 were killed in the bombing, while other sources show over 1,000.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c
Hundreds of sick, injured, elderly refugees killed in an attack on a hospital. There is no moral equivocation or justification of this act. This has no place in modern society, and this will bring the region and us closer to war.
The Prime Minister of Israel is using dehumanization and broad othering language to differentiate Israel from "its enemies", tweeting out: "This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle". This language, reminiscent of the First Epistle to the Thessalonians of the New Testament, has been used to justify anti-Semitic attacks against Jews throughout ancient and contemporary history. This is the language you use to justify genocide, to justify racial and religious superiority and persecution. This language has no business coming from the Prime Minister of a Jewish state, and this language does not make me feel safer as a Jew.
If you value peace, your interests are not protected by the current far-right Israeli regime, and the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can tack towards peace.
The U.S. response to 9/11 included the American invasion of Afghanistan in league with the so-called Northern Alliance. Officially around 70,000K civilians lost their lives (probably more the 100K since counts in those regions historically are under measured). The rules of engagement for air strikes were amazingly relaxed resulting in bombing of civilian areas. The CIA armed and funded Afghan militia groups who have been implicated in grave human rights abuses and killings of civilians with the CIA's knowledge. The war has exacerbated the effects of poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to health care, and environmental degradation on Afghans' health. The immediate goals were to force the Taliban from power and destroy al-Qaida.
When Japanese bombed Peal Harbor, the US engaged in war with Japan. It was known policy that the allies would not take Japanese prisoners, which was completely buried by the US media. We dropped two atomic bombs on cites, and fire bombed many other Japanese cities. The civilian death toll in Japan was probably around 900,000 lives just from the bombings and you can add another 100,000 plus died from the atomic bombs.
Your continuous holy than thou act on moral equivocation and justification is wearing a little thin. As a Jew, you might want to take on judgment of the German Nazi experience. Like Hamas, the Nazi party advocating clear messages tailored to a broad range of people and their problems. Germany's standard of living was in a free fall due to sanctions placed on its economy by the World War 1 allies. The economic failure and a decline in living standards was associated with the Weimar democracy imposed by the Allies. By 1932, Germany had reached breaking point. The economic crisis and limits placed on the German economy, in turn led to widespread social and political unrest in Germany, and meant that Germany could no longer afford to pay reparations. Germany suffered the tyranny of the winning military power of France, England, the US, etc. The Nazi's took advantage poverty, unemployment, malnutrition, unrest, and all the other things that are in Gaza to win an election when Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing those who opposed him such as communists and socialists), and to eliminate the influence of Jewish. Just like Hamas, Hitler began dismantling democratic institutions and imprisoning or murdering his chief opponents. Just like Hamas. He then forced Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudetenland, where Germans lived in an occupied territory and were subject to [inset your wording on the "innocents" of Gaza under Israeli control} Next was atrocities committed against Jews Any of this sounding familiar? So yes, the world waited and waited like you want to do.
Wars that are based on revenge can be effective in punishing an enemy and for other reasons such as regime change, but they can also create a power vacuum that sparks a long, deadly conflict that fails to deliver sustainable stability. Europe and Japan became allies due to how the post-war was handled, to wit: put the areas under military control (thereby depriving the population of rights for some time), and ultimately to help rebuild.
The only successful conflict against a terrorist group in the past two decades, against the Islamic State group between 2014 and 2017, ended with both Raqqa in Syria and Mosul reduced to rubble and thousands of men, women, and children consigned to detention camps. There are people in speak in platitudes and outrage and accomplish nothing, and those that make the hard often necessary decisions. Israel with the support of the western world and other allies (and with winks from other neighbors such as the Egypt) is making what it thinks is the only decision it has (partly due to Israel's policies), and the consequences will be devastating to the civilian population, if Israel really intends to take out Hamas. The Gaza leadership, which is Hamas, didn't agree to an ethical fight. If you put in Hamas fighters behind humans shields, in Mosques, in schools, in hospitals, etc. you should expect casualties. But as they say on the school yard and in the UN, they are getting what they asked for.
In another post you said you pontificated " I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy." That is a tough one: have you thought about moving to say Switzerland?
I'm well versed in the history of the Holocaust. If you truly believe that Hamas and the blockaded, impoverished, ~2 million Palestinians living in squalor in a 140 square mile strip of land without a navy, without an air force, without ports, without a hope for a future represent the same existential threat to Jews as the 65 million Germans in a country ripe with natural resources spanning over180,999 square miles then I truly don't think any words I type will change your opinion of anything, you live in a world of pure imagination.
You posit that I'm clueless, holier than thou, and speak in platitudes while accomplishing nothing, and paint yourself as the pragmatist making hard choices, and go on to assert the necessity of bombing hospitals, dropping atomic bombs, and murdering civilians, while footnoting that the death and destruction is necessary "(partly due to Israel's policies)".
So pragmatism is waking up, putting on your big-boy pants, and bombing hospitals and killing civilians, while us wacky, clueless, holier than thou people pontificate about something as crazy as... changing those policies. Got it.
(edited to move my comment out of the quote text)
But yea, you don't seem to mind being a shill for Hamas and announcing what your county must be like, while ignoring the decisions your country made. Maybe I should add hypocrite to the list of words. Also, lose the term big boy pants - it is so 2010. As far as getting it, your idealism is overruling your common sense.
Move the goal posts, deflect from the topic we were discussing and pivot to a new one, and add in more personal attacks. Boring. Not worth a real reply.
Thanks to others who engage in good faith and have independent thoughts worth sharing. This thread is mostly very compelling and I appreciate actual intellectual pushback from those who help sharpen my own thinking.
Of equal note is the type of manifestly absurd statements you've made which evidence your bias. For example, that Israel is destroying a people. In 1948 here were less than 1M Palestinian refugees. Today there are over 5M. If Israel is destroying a people, they're really bad at it. And if that is the intent, why are they asking civilians to leave Northern Gaza? It is fair (perhaps) to criticize the way Israel is waging a war (and it is a declared war). It is not fair to ignore what Israel does to avoid civilian casualties which stands in stark contrast to Hamas targeting of civilians and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Do you know who has killed more Palestinians than Israel? Hamas and other terrorist groups, not to mention many other Arabs! Hamas has done so directly to impose their rule by force and notably with rockets aimed at Israel that fall short and land in Gaza. The hospital bombing today appears to be exactly that. Yet there you are, making unqualified assertions that back up your bias.
It seems pretty clear your news sources are off or you are totally incapable of acknowledging nuance. There are UNSUBSTANTIATED Hamas claims that Israel bombed fleeing caravans - you state that as a fact. Those claims have been largely debunked - but if you prefer at a minimum they are hotly in dispute and there is no evidence of such bombings. Yet, like the hospital bombing, you adopt the propaganda unquestionably and use it to support your distorted views.
You also accuse Israel of occupying Gaza (despite the 2005 withdrawal), repeat allegations of apartheid and "war crimes", and then make the odd claim that Israel's alleged actions have "taken away even my ability to grieve for my fellow Jews". This is the most bizarre white washing and victim blaming I have seen in some time. Only "the jews" are at fault? You feels the sads for the Palestinians, but not the Jews? The innocent Israeli civilians (most of whom were, ironically, of the left) are totally undeserving of any of your sympathy?
And you offer literally NO proposed solution. What would you have Israel do in the face of two organizations (Hezbollah and Hamas) who, based on religion (and exhibiting the same religious zealotry you accuse Netanyahu of) are INTRACTIBLY against the existence of Israel and the presence of Jews in that area. That is the side you've picked - the side you feel bad for. What is your solution in dealing with these terrorists?
I feel bad for all parties. The Palestinians have endured decades of suffering in large part because their leaders (including Hamas) have failed them. Israel has contributed to that suffering and bears some blame. But don't white wash what certain Palestinians (those supporting violence and terrorism and corrupt leadership) have done (and failed to do).
If you truly cared about the Palestinian people, you'd spend less time demonizing Israel (and the USA) and instead advocate for the type of change that will actually elevate their standard of living - starting with the removal of Hamas.
1. The goalpost shifting was replying to wifeisafurd's comment that Hamas represents a similar existential threat as the Nazi Germans did to the Jews, and that war crimes are a normal part of war. I didn't see any reply on that matter, and instead the conversation shifted. I don't like to reply to people that just keep shifting the conversation without responding to the point at hand. His comments also were devolving into more and more personal attacks and accusations, and his last reply made clear he wasn't interested in discussing ideas that made him uncomfortable, as he explicitly asked me not to reply to him.
2. The hospital bombing is going to remain disputed for the forseeable future. Here is what I do know about it.
A. Hananya Naftali, a prominent Israeli social media influcer and IDF veteran, tweeted out and immediately deleted a post claiming credit for bombing the hospital right after the bombing occurred
Netanyahu-appointed Israeli Digital Spokesperson Hananya Naftali tweeted on 18 October 2023 admitting that Israel bombed the Baptist Hospital in Gaza, killing 500 civilians. He later deleted the tweet and blamed the attack on hamas after international outcry : r/ModernPropaganda (reddit.com)
(Please note before you make inferences about my sources that I had to do a Google images search for this, as I can't attach photos).
B. You may say well, what does Hananyan Naftali know as a comms guy? Hananyan Naftali is very close to Benjamin Netenyahu and has risen prominently in helping craft the public narrative around Israel and the Netenyahu administration. The rise of Hananya Naftali, social media star and pro-Israel influencer - JNS.org
How close is he to Netenyahu? Well, Netenyahu attended and toasted him at his wedding. He's not just some random comms guy. Prime Minister Netanyahu and Sara Bless Us At Our Wedding | Thank you Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and dear Sara for blessing us at our wedding. Truly amazing! India International | By Hananya Naftali | Facebook
C. What is he saying now? He's admitting that he tweeted and deleted claiming Israeli credit for bombing the hospital, and his story is now that he assumed it was a Hamas military cache, and that 'The IDF does not bomb hospitals.
Hananya Naftali on X: "Earlier today I shared a report that was published on @reuters about the bombing at the hospital in Gaza which falsely stated Israel struck the hospital. I mistakenly shared this information in a since deleted post in which I referenced Hamas' routine use of hospitals to storeā¦" / X (twitter.com)
D. Is that true? Does the IDF not bomb hospitals? Well, no. The IDF does bomb hospitals. You can say that Hamas uses them for military purposes, but that's a separate conversation. But the IDF does bomb hospitals, they have in the past, and they have in this conflict. They even bombed this very hospital twice earlier in the conflict, so-called 'knock on the roof bombs' encouraging the full evacuation and warning of a larger strike later.
Israel Airstrikes Tatter Strained Gaza Health Care System (theintercept.com) (2014)
Israel/Gaza: Attacks on medical facilities and civilians add to war crime allegations - Amnesty International (2014)
Nowhere to Hide in Gaza as Israeli Onslaught Continues - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (2023)
AHLI HOSPITAL STRUCK BY ROCKET FIRE | American Friends of the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem (afedj.org) - Al Ahil hospital struck by Israel in earlier attack on October 15th prior to October 17th attack.
E. So the IDF position that they don't bomb hospitals is not true. They have, and do, and in fact, bombed this very hospital just three days before. And a Netanyahu spokesperson took credit for bombing this hospital immediately after, then retracted the statement. Now we have heard a lot of conflicting information.
F. What is the conflicting information? Israel is saying it was a mis-fired Islamic Jihad missile. Let's suspend disbelief that an Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or other missile fired from Gaza at any point in time has ever been powerful enough to kill 500+, despite thousands having been launched over the years at Israel. Blaming Islamic Jihad is right out of the IDF playbook when an operation is met with public backlash. In 2022, the IDF killed 5 Palestinian children in a cemetary. Immediately, the IDF blamed Islamic Jihad, a group separate from Hamas. There was a lot of back and forth, a lot of conflicting reports, a lot of mis-information. Eventually, it was confirmed that the IDF did in fact kill 5 Palestinian boys that were visited a grave site to grieve. Gaza: Israel admits killing five children at cemetery after initially blaming Islamic Jihad | Middle East Eye
Similarly, when the IDF killed a prominent Palestinian-American journalist, they blamed Hamas, then said it's possible it was crossfire, before finally admitting it was likely accidental. Shireen Abu Akleh - Wikipedia
G. I am well aware of what Israeli intelligence is purporting, and I'm also well-aware that as of this morning, the U.S. "has collected "high confidence" signals intelligence showing that the explosion at a Gaza hospital compound on Tuesday was caused by the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
I am also still waiting for the evidence of the weapons of mass destruction that were the impetus for the last twenty years of our foreign policy.
I am also certain that this will continue to be debated for some time.
3. The Israeli bombing of evacuating caravans report isn't disputed as far as I'm aware. Please point me in the direction if I'm mistaken. 70 killed after convoys of evacuees in Gaza hit by Israeli airstrikes (nbcnews.com)
4. You start a straw-man argument by saying that I said Israel is trying to destroy a people, and then argue against a point I never made by showing the growth of the Palestinian population. Okay?
I said the following about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians: "humiliation, occupation, apartheid, collective punishment, physical and psychological torture'.
5. I don't really have an invested interest in Palestinian self-government in the same way I do the Israeli government. I'm not Palestinian, I'm not a Muslim, and my country doesn't actively participate in propping up the Palestinians as a military outpost with billions of dollars of aid, and with diplomatic cover in the UN. In that way, you can say that I'm biased and maybe even a little bit racist in that I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard than I hold Hamas, in large part because as a US taxpayer, I consider myself a stakeholder in the enterprises my tax dollars support.
6. Are you arguing that the Gaza strip isn't occupied since Israel 'vacated' it in 2005? Is that a semantic argument or a real one? Semantically, sure, we can sure it's Israeli 'controlled' territory since Israel technically did cease to occupy the territory formally in their 2005 withdrawl. Are you suggesting though that Gaza is not occupied in every other sense of the word? That they're a self-sufficient nation? This is an extremist view that runs counter to the United Nations. Here is their take on it, not mine, take it up with them as Israeli occupation over Gaza isn't an opinion so much as an international fact. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/11297
7. I agree, Hamas is not the way forward for peace and is not in the best interest of the Palestinians. So what's my way forward? An independent Palestinian state.
Again, as a US citizen and therefore taxpaying stakeholder in the affairs of our client state Israel, my opinions are what Israel can do, and what we can allow them to do. As a Jew, I also have some particular thoughts. First and foremost, I truly believe that it is my and others responsibility to not let the pain of my ancestors, the atrocities of the Holocaust and the very real violence associated with anti-Semetism be weaponized to justify the subjugation of another people.
As far as Hamas? Yes, I agree, they aren't serving the best interests of the Palestinians, and they need to go. But how did they get there? Why, they've risen in large part thanks to Benjamin Netenyahu, who legitimizes them as a partner, and urges their funding in order to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state. Don't beleive me? Here, he has said it himself. This isn't a conspiracy, these are his words:
"Those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas," he stated at a Likud party meeting in March 2019. "This is part of our strategy, to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria." - Benjamin Netenyahu
How Benjamin Netanyahu empowered Hamas... and broke Israel (telegraph.co.uk)
Israel has asymmetric military power relative to its peers, and largely in part because of US support. The war of 1967 shows that this is necessary for Israel to survive. However, Israel also has a responsibility to its citizens to behave as a good neighbor. Continued belligerence towards its neighboring nations and occupied Palestinian territories will only sow more conflict. If we just get rid of Hamas, bomb it into oblivion and kill thousands of Palestinians, in a few years, if we continue supporting the same Israeli policies, we will just have another Hamas, and another, and another, and each one will be worse and more desperate than the last.
So step one is to get rid of Netenyahu, then treat Palestinians as people with dignity and with a state, and continue to work towards a two state solution.
Let me re-familiarize you with what you said:
"Israel just bombed a hospital in Gaza City ...There is no moral equivocation or justification of this act. This has no place in modern society, and this will bring the region and us closer to war."
"Any country worth their salt would respond like Israel did? By stacking war crimes on top of war crimes? By killing over a thousand children and counting? Bombing schools, hospitals, journalists? Creating over 1 million refugees and forcing them to flee within 24 hours, and then bombing the fleeing caravans on the roads you explicitly labeled as evacuation routes? By cutting off electricity, water, and internet for over a week now to an entire civilian population that you occupy and have complete land, air, and sea blockade over? By dropping white phosphorous in a populated civilian area?
The international community is largely aghast at these actions because they run counter to international norms, international law, and are considered international war crimes. If international laws are only to be applied to less powerful countries and can be broken when more powerful countries get upset enough, than they are completely useless, and we will only see a proliferation of attacks that also run counter to international laws, as Hamas' attack on Israeli civilians was. I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy.
'Countries worth a salt' that commit war crimes but then expect those they commit them against to play nicely in return may have the best interests of empires, war lords, oligarchs, oil barons, the military industrial complex, and shareholders invested in death, destruction, and natural resources extraction in mind, but I promise you they DO NOT have my best interests in mind, and unless you fall into one of the above categories, I'm willing to bet they don't have your best interests in mind either.
Now that we've been complicit in complete physical and psychology torture of a caged populace, I hope there aren't millions of young Palestinians that think just like you, that will grow up seeking revenge for war crimes and indignities committed against them, and justify it by saying 'Look, Israel and the US knew what was going to happen by doing what they did'..."
So when I point out the conduct you abhor above, war crimes, is pretty much what was is like when the US and its allies and others engage in this kind of conduct, and what you say is international norm, is not, you say I'm moving the goal posts to avoid responding to that discussion. Read your language again.
When I talk about revenge warfare, you don't think I'm talking directly to you? Read your f'ing words. You even basically use the term verbatim in the last quoted paragraph above.
You say you are concerned because the US puts you at risk by flaunting these International laws and when I tell you this its common practice in war and give you examples and say the only county you may not feel at risk and jeopardy, is Switzerland and you need to go thought if that is what you want. Then you go off on some love it or leave it argument. The other thing about being a taxpayer is amusing. So you get to dictate US policy because you pay taxes. And I get to dictate UK and Italy policy because I paid a crap load of VAT after my wife went shopping in these countries last year. Look, you get the right to vote, just like everyone else. I voted for Biden and candidly, I'm okay with the job he is doing and his support of Israel to go to war.
In the long list of why countries start wars for (empires, war lords, oligarchs, oil barons, the military industrial complex, and shareholders invested in death, destruction, and natural resources extraction), you left out revenge wars. You know, responses to others actions. I tried to explain that to you, but you claim I moved the goal posts.
I will let others respond to that long discussion piece, some of which I agree with and some not at all, other than:
1) you simply ignore the physical evidence of tapes of terrorists screaming about their missiles exploding.
2) You fail to explain wily Israel should not have to defend itself if missiles are being shot from hospitals or any other civilian location, because for any other countries not named Israel, in real shooting war those locations are not immune?
3) Do you have some evidence there was an ongoing Israeli air raid in the vicinity at the time?
4) Are you saying because your enemy hides behind certain locations those areas can't be targets under international norms for warfare? Can you provide me the names of countries that go to war and don't take out civilian facilities where the enemy fights from?
T The discussion about the Nazi rise to power echoing that of Hamas, also demonstrates how to respond to a fanatical group like Hamas.
Look who is laughing back:Slava Palestini said:LOL at anyone who thinks Hamas bombed that hospitalBearGoggles said:It is not moving the goalposts to point out that you made an unqualified claim (Israel bombed a hospital) and based on basically no information other than a very preliminary DISPTUED claim. And then you want to just gloss over that. You think that's good faith?KPG said:wifeisafurd said:Maybe the adults in the room are waiting for the evidence on who blew up the hospital, or is that so 2001? You're so blinded by your ideology you didn't even notice that there is a dispute as to whose missile hit the hospital. I might add the NYT withdrew its lead in about 2 hours, and now has a very different discussion of events as the US is reviewing Israel evidence that shows where the missile came from. But you, just double down. How Trump of you.KPG said:The old "Love it or leave it" schtick, is it 2001 or 2023?wifeisafurd said:It is a big bad world out there, but only the most clueless don't understand there always is retaliation. The aim of massive retaliation is to deter being attacked again. You can argue history and pick your time over the last 5,000 years that should matter, but you are where you are, and Israel has no real other options. For such a strategy to work, it must be made public knowledge to all possible aggressors (destruction of Gaza is for the eyes of other enemies and terror groups). The aggressor also must believe that the state announcing the policy has the ability to maintain multiple-strike capability. Hamas obviously knew that, and it is the legitimately elected representatives of the people in Gaza, so this was an attack by a government actor, not just a random group, and the dancing in the streets all over Gaza meant we approve and bring it on. Israel didn't just say we will be tit for tat, they declared war against a territory, and like the US and its allies in other wars, this war is aimed at regime change.KPG said:
Israel just bombed a hospital in Gaza City, and the AP is reporting over 500 were killed in the bombing, while other sources show over 1,000.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c
Hundreds of sick, injured, elderly refugees killed in an attack on a hospital. There is no moral equivocation or justification of this act. This has no place in modern society, and this will bring the region and us closer to war.
The Prime Minister of Israel is using dehumanization and broad othering language to differentiate Israel from "its enemies", tweeting out: "This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle". This language, reminiscent of the First Epistle to the Thessalonians of the New Testament, has been used to justify anti-Semitic attacks against Jews throughout ancient and contemporary history. This is the language you use to justify genocide, to justify racial and religious superiority and persecution. This language has no business coming from the Prime Minister of a Jewish state, and this language does not make me feel safer as a Jew.
If you value peace, your interests are not protected by the current far-right Israeli regime, and the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can tack towards peace.
The U.S. response to 9/11 included the American invasion of Afghanistan in league with the so-called Northern Alliance. Officially around 70,000K civilians lost their lives (probably more the 100K since counts in those regions historically are under measured). The rules of engagement for air strikes were amazingly relaxed resulting in bombing of civilian areas. The CIA armed and funded Afghan militia groups who have been implicated in grave human rights abuses and killings of civilians with the CIA's knowledge. The war has exacerbated the effects of poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to health care, and environmental degradation on Afghans' health. The immediate goals were to force the Taliban from power and destroy al-Qaida.
When Japanese bombed Peal Harbor, the US engaged in war with Japan. It was known policy that the allies would not take Japanese prisoners, which was completely buried by the US media. We dropped two atomic bombs on cites, and fire bombed many other Japanese cities. The civilian death toll in Japan was probably around 900,000 lives just from the bombings and you can add another 100,000 plus died from the atomic bombs.
Your continuous holy than thou act on moral equivocation and justification is wearing a little thin. As a Jew, you might want to take on judgment of the German Nazi experience. Like Hamas, the Nazi party advocating clear messages tailored to a broad range of people and their problems. Germany's standard of living was in a free fall due to sanctions placed on its economy by the World War 1 allies. The economic failure and a decline in living standards was associated with the Weimar democracy imposed by the Allies. By 1932, Germany had reached breaking point. The economic crisis and limits placed on the German economy, in turn led to widespread social and political unrest in Germany, and meant that Germany could no longer afford to pay reparations. Germany suffered the tyranny of the winning military power of France, England, the US, etc. The Nazi's took advantage poverty, unemployment, malnutrition, unrest, and all the other things that are in Gaza to win an election when Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing those who opposed him such as communists and socialists), and to eliminate the influence of Jewish. Just like Hamas, Hitler began dismantling democratic institutions and imprisoning or murdering his chief opponents. Just like Hamas. He then forced Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudetenland, where Germans lived in an occupied territory and were subject to [inset your wording on the "innocents" of Gaza under Israeli control} Next was atrocities committed against Jews Any of this sounding familiar? So yes, the world waited and waited like you want to do.
Wars that are based on revenge can be effective in punishing an enemy and for other reasons such as regime change, but they can also create a power vacuum that sparks a long, deadly conflict that fails to deliver sustainable stability. Europe and Japan became allies due to how the post-war was handled, to wit: put the areas under military control (thereby depriving the population of rights for some time), and ultimately to help rebuild.
The only successful conflict against a terrorist group in the past two decades, against the Islamic State group between 2014 and 2017, ended with both Raqqa in Syria and Mosul reduced to rubble and thousands of men, women, and children consigned to detention camps. There are people in speak in platitudes and outrage and accomplish nothing, and those that make the hard often necessary decisions. Israel with the support of the western world and other allies (and with winks from other neighbors such as the Egypt) is making what it thinks is the only decision it has (partly due to Israel's policies), and the consequences will be devastating to the civilian population, if Israel really intends to take out Hamas. The Gaza leadership, which is Hamas, didn't agree to an ethical fight. If you put in Hamas fighters behind humans shields, in Mosques, in schools, in hospitals, etc. you should expect casualties. But as they say on the school yard and in the UN, they are getting what they asked for.
In another post you said you pontificated " I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy." That is a tough one: have you thought about moving to say Switzerland?
I'm well versed in the history of the Holocaust. If you truly believe that Hamas and the blockaded, impoverished, ~2 million Palestinians living in squalor in a 140 square mile strip of land without a navy, without an air force, without ports, without a hope for a future represent the same existential threat to Jews as the 65 million Germans in a country ripe with natural resources spanning over180,999 square miles then I truly don't think any words I type will change your opinion of anything, you live in a world of pure imagination.
You posit that I'm clueless, holier than thou, and speak in platitudes while accomplishing nothing, and paint yourself as the pragmatist making hard choices, and go on to assert the necessity of bombing hospitals, dropping atomic bombs, and murdering civilians, while footnoting that the death and destruction is necessary "(partly due to Israel's policies)".
So pragmatism is waking up, putting on your big-boy pants, and bombing hospitals and killing civilians, while us wacky, clueless, holier than thou people pontificate about something as crazy as... changing those policies. Got it.
(edited to move my comment out of the quote text)
But yea, you don't seem to mind being a shill for Hamas and announcing what your county must be like, while ignoring the decisions your country made. Maybe I should add hypocrite to the list of words. Also, lose the term big boy pants - it is so 2010. As far as getting it, your idealism is overruling your common sense.
Move the goal posts, deflect from the topic we were discussing and pivot to a new one, and add in more personal attacks. Boring. Not worth a real reply.
Thanks to others who engage in good faith and have independent thoughts worth sharing. This thread is mostly very compelling and I appreciate actual intellectual pushback from those who help sharpen my own thinking.
Of equal note is the type of manifestly absurd statements you've made which evidence your bias. For example, that Israel is destroying a people. In 1948 here were less than 1M Palestinian refugees. Today there are over 5M. If Israel is destroying a people, they're really bad at it. And if that is the intent, why are they asking civilians to leave Northern Gaza? It is fair (perhaps) to criticize the way Israel is waging a war (and it is a declared war). It is not fair to ignore what Israel does to avoid civilian casualties which stands in stark contrast to Hamas targeting of civilians and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Do you know who has killed more Palestinians than Israel? Hamas and other terrorist groups, not to mention many other Arabs! Hamas has done so directly to impose their rule by force and notably with rockets aimed at Israel that fall short and land in Gaza. The hospital bombing today appears to be exactly that. Yet there you are, making unqualified assertions that back up your bias.
It seems pretty clear your news sources are off or you are totally incapable of acknowledging nuance. There are UNSUBSTANTIATED Hamas claims that Israel bombed fleeing caravans - you state that as a fact. Those claims have been largely debunked - but if you prefer at a minimum they are hotly in dispute and there is no evidence of such bombings. Yet, like the hospital bombing, you adopt the propaganda unquestionably and use it to support your distorted views.
You also accuse Israel of occupying Gaza (despite the 2005 withdrawal), repeat allegations of apartheid and "war crimes", and then make the odd claim that Israel's alleged actions have "taken away even my ability to grieve for my fellow Jews". This is the most bizarre white washing and victim blaming I have seen in some time. Only "the jews" are at fault? You feels the sads for the Palestinians, but not the Jews? The innocent Israeli civilians (most of whom were, ironically, of the left) are totally undeserving of any of your sympathy?
And you offer literally NO proposed solution. What would you have Israel do in the face of two organizations (Hezbollah and Hamas) who, based on religion (and exhibiting the same religious zealotry you accuse Netanyahu of) are INTRACTIBLY against the existence of Israel and the presence of Jews in that area. That is the side you've picked - the side you feel bad for. What is your solution in dealing with these terrorists?
I feel bad for all parties. The Palestinians have endured decades of suffering in large part because their leaders (including Hamas) have failed them. Israel has contributed to that suffering and bears some blame. But don't white wash what certain Palestinians (those supporting violence and terrorism and corrupt leadership) have done (and failed to do).
If you truly cared about the Palestinian people, you'd spend less time demonizing Israel (and the USA) and instead advocate for the type of change that will actually elevate their standard of living - starting with the removal of Hamas.
Trying to read and digest the comments in this thread is rapidly approaching the difficulty of making sense of Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian:
" A legion of horribles, hundreds in number, half naked or clad in costumes attic or biblical or wardrobed out of a fevered dream with the skins of animals and silk finery and pieces of uniform still tracked with the blood of prior owners, coats of slain dragoons, frogged and braided cavalry jackets, one in a stovepipe hat and one with an umbrella and one in white stockings and a bloodstained wedding veil and some in headgear or cranefeathers or rawhide helmets that bore the horns of bull or buffalo and one in a pigeontailed coat worn backwards and otherwise naked and one in the armor of a Spanish conquistador, the breastplate and pauldrons deeply dented with old blows of mace or sabre done in another country by men whose very bones were dust and many with their braids spliced up with the hair of other beasts until they trailed upon the ground and their horses' ears and tails worked with bits of brightly colored cloth and one whose horse's whole head was painted crimson red and all the horsemen's faces gaudy and grotesque with daubings like a company of mounted clowns, death hilarious, all howling in a barbarous tongue and riding down upon them like a horde from a hell more horrible yet than the brimstone land of Christian reckoning, screeching and yammering and clothed in smoke like those vaporous beings in regions beyond right knowing where the eye wanders and the lip jerks and drools."
*Question: Does the software on this site allow the copying and pasting of the entire contents of the Bible in a comment box? If so, how many pages on the BI mobile version would it take up?
" A legion of horribles, hundreds in number, half naked or clad in costumes attic or biblical or wardrobed out of a fevered dream with the skins of animals and silk finery and pieces of uniform still tracked with the blood of prior owners, coats of slain dragoons, frogged and braided cavalry jackets, one in a stovepipe hat and one with an umbrella and one in white stockings and a bloodstained wedding veil and some in headgear or cranefeathers or rawhide helmets that bore the horns of bull or buffalo and one in a pigeontailed coat worn backwards and otherwise naked and one in the armor of a Spanish conquistador, the breastplate and pauldrons deeply dented with old blows of mace or sabre done in another country by men whose very bones were dust and many with their braids spliced up with the hair of other beasts until they trailed upon the ground and their horses' ears and tails worked with bits of brightly colored cloth and one whose horse's whole head was painted crimson red and all the horsemen's faces gaudy and grotesque with daubings like a company of mounted clowns, death hilarious, all howling in a barbarous tongue and riding down upon them like a horde from a hell more horrible yet than the brimstone land of Christian reckoning, screeching and yammering and clothed in smoke like those vaporous beings in regions beyond right knowing where the eye wanders and the lip jerks and drools."
*Question: Does the software on this site allow the copying and pasting of the entire contents of the Bible in a comment box? If so, how many pages on the BI mobile version would it take up?
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
This is the kind of moment that's worth taking over the Capitol for, rather than some rich guy's grievance because he lost an election
Thousands of pro-Palestine protesters outside United States Capitol right now as hundreds gather inside, being arrested. pic.twitter.com/oyZkNXPeFe
— Ford Fischer (@FordFischer) October 18, 2023
I am very open minded to the possibility that Israel did it. But I am also trying to make evidence based conclusions.Slava Palestini said:
LOL at anyone who thinks Hamas bombed that hospital
I might respond with an LOL at anyone who ignores that video shows no crater; photographic evidence the hospital is still standing; video showing rockets originating west of and flying over the hospital; video appearing to show one of those rockets malfunctioning; audio recordings of two people speaking in Arabic saying the shrapnel matches their stuff, not Israel; video showing an impact at the hospital including a large volume of immediate fire; etc.
Basically, the evidence in opposition appears to be that Israel warned the hospital previously, Israel is bad and well, Israel is bad.
Maybe this changes in the future as the linked Al Jazeera Op-Ed predicts but for now this is an easy and obvious call.
wifeisafurd said:Look who is laughing back:Slava Palestini said:
LOL at anyone who thinks Hamas bombed that hospital
https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/israels-culture-of-deceit
Quote:
I covered war for two decades, including seven years in the Middle East. I learned quite a bit about the size and lethality of explosive devices. There is nothing in the arsenal of Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) that could have replicated the massive explosive power of the missile that killed an estimated 500 civilians in the al-Ahli Arab Christian hospital in Gaza. Nothing. If Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad had these kinds of missiles, huge buildings in Israel would be rubble with hundreds of dead. They don't.
Quote:
Following the strike on the hospital, Hananya Naftali, a "digital aide" to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, posted on X, formerly Twitter: "Israeli Air Force struck a Hamas terrorist base inside a hospital in Gaza." The post was quickly deleted.
Quote:
Israel engages in the kinds of jaw-dropping lies that characterize despotic regimes. It does not deform the truth, it inverts it. It paints a picture that is diametrically opposed to reality. Those of us who have covered the occupied territories have run into Israel's Alice-in-Wonderland narratives, which we dutifully insert into our stories required under the rules of American journalism although we know they are untrue.
Quote:
Israeli supporters thirst for these lies. They do not want to know the truth. The truth would force them to examine their racism, self-delusion and complicity in oppression, murder and genocide.
Since I was typing inside your post, I was using caps to separate my text from yours. I was not intending to internet shout, but whatever.KPG said:BEAR GOGGLES, THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY.BearGoggles said:KPG said:Let's go point by point.BearGoggles said:It is not moving the goalposts to point out that you made an unqualified claim (Israel bombed a hospital) and based on basically no information other than a very preliminary DISPTUED claim. And then you want to just gloss over that. You think that's good faith?KPG said:wifeisafurd said:Maybe the adults in the room are waiting for the evidence on who blew up the hospital, or is that so 2001? You're so blinded by your ideology you didn't even notice that there is a dispute as to whose missile hit the hospital. I might add the NYT withdrew its lead in about 2 hours, and now has a very different discussion of events as the US is reviewing Israel evidence that shows where the missile came from. But you, just double down. How Trump of you.KPG said:The old "Love it or leave it" schtick, is it 2001 or 2023?wifeisafurd said:It is a big bad world out there, but only the most clueless don't understand there always is retaliation. The aim of massive retaliation is to deter being attacked again. You can argue history and pick your time over the last 5,000 years that should matter, but you are where you are, and Israel has no real other options. For such a strategy to work, it must be made public knowledge to all possible aggressors (destruction of Gaza is for the eyes of other enemies and terror groups). The aggressor also must believe that the state announcing the policy has the ability to maintain multiple-strike capability. Hamas obviously knew that, and it is the legitimately elected representatives of the people in Gaza, so this was an attack by a government actor, not just a random group, and the dancing in the streets all over Gaza meant we approve and bring it on. Israel didn't just say we will be tit for tat, they declared war against a territory, and like the US and its allies in other wars, this war is aimed at regime change.KPG said:
Israel just bombed a hospital in Gaza City, and the AP is reporting over 500 were killed in the bombing, while other sources show over 1,000.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c
Hundreds of sick, injured, elderly refugees killed in an attack on a hospital. There is no moral equivocation or justification of this act. This has no place in modern society, and this will bring the region and us closer to war.
The Prime Minister of Israel is using dehumanization and broad othering language to differentiate Israel from "its enemies", tweeting out: "This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle". This language, reminiscent of the First Epistle to the Thessalonians of the New Testament, has been used to justify anti-Semitic attacks against Jews throughout ancient and contemporary history. This is the language you use to justify genocide, to justify racial and religious superiority and persecution. This language has no business coming from the Prime Minister of a Jewish state, and this language does not make me feel safer as a Jew.
If you value peace, your interests are not protected by the current far-right Israeli regime, and the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can tack towards peace.
The U.S. response to 9/11 included the American invasion of Afghanistan in league with the so-called Northern Alliance. Officially around 70,000K civilians lost their lives (probably more the 100K since counts in those regions historically are under measured). The rules of engagement for air strikes were amazingly relaxed resulting in bombing of civilian areas. The CIA armed and funded Afghan militia groups who have been implicated in grave human rights abuses and killings of civilians with the CIA's knowledge. The war has exacerbated the effects of poverty, malnutrition, poor sanitation, lack of access to health care, and environmental degradation on Afghans' health. The immediate goals were to force the Taliban from power and destroy al-Qaida.
When Japanese bombed Peal Harbor, the US engaged in war with Japan. It was known policy that the allies would not take Japanese prisoners, which was completely buried by the US media. We dropped two atomic bombs on cites, and fire bombed many other Japanese cities. The civilian death toll in Japan was probably around 900,000 lives just from the bombings and you can add another 100,000 plus died from the atomic bombs.
Your continuous holy than thou act on moral equivocation and justification is wearing a little thin. As a Jew, you might want to take on judgment of the German Nazi experience. Like Hamas, the Nazi party advocating clear messages tailored to a broad range of people and their problems. Germany's standard of living was in a free fall due to sanctions placed on its economy by the World War 1 allies. The economic failure and a decline in living standards was associated with the Weimar democracy imposed by the Allies. By 1932, Germany had reached breaking point. The economic crisis and limits placed on the German economy, in turn led to widespread social and political unrest in Germany, and meant that Germany could no longer afford to pay reparations. Germany suffered the tyranny of the winning military power of France, England, the US, etc. The Nazi's took advantage poverty, unemployment, malnutrition, unrest, and all the other things that are in Gaza to win an election when Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing those who opposed him such as communists and socialists), and to eliminate the influence of Jewish. Just like Hamas, Hitler began dismantling democratic institutions and imprisoning or murdering his chief opponents. Just like Hamas. He then forced Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudetenland, where Germans lived in an occupied territory and were subject to [inset your wording on the "innocents" of Gaza under Israeli control} Next was atrocities committed against Jews Any of this sounding familiar? So yes, the world waited and waited like you want to do.
Wars that are based on revenge can be effective in punishing an enemy and for other reasons such as regime change, but they can also create a power vacuum that sparks a long, deadly conflict that fails to deliver sustainable stability. Europe and Japan became allies due to how the post-war was handled, to wit: put the areas under military control (thereby depriving the population of rights for some time), and ultimately to help rebuild.
The only successful conflict against a terrorist group in the past two decades, against the Islamic State group between 2014 and 2017, ended with both Raqqa in Syria and Mosul reduced to rubble and thousands of men, women, and children consigned to detention camps. There are people in speak in platitudes and outrage and accomplish nothing, and those that make the hard often necessary decisions. Israel with the support of the western world and other allies (and with winks from other neighbors such as the Egypt) is making what it thinks is the only decision it has (partly due to Israel's policies), and the consequences will be devastating to the civilian population, if Israel really intends to take out Hamas. The Gaza leadership, which is Hamas, didn't agree to an ethical fight. If you put in Hamas fighters behind humans shields, in Mosques, in schools, in hospitals, etc. you should expect casualties. But as they say on the school yard and in the UN, they are getting what they asked for.
In another post you said you pontificated " I desire to live in a safe, peaceful world, and if my country actively and routinely normalizes flaunting international laws, that is only going to put me and other civilians like me at further risk and jeopardy." That is a tough one: have you thought about moving to say Switzerland?
I'm well versed in the history of the Holocaust. If you truly believe that Hamas and the blockaded, impoverished, ~2 million Palestinians living in squalor in a 140 square mile strip of land without a navy, without an air force, without ports, without a hope for a future represent the same existential threat to Jews as the 65 million Germans in a country ripe with natural resources spanning over180,999 square miles then I truly don't think any words I type will change your opinion of anything, you live in a world of pure imagination.
You posit that I'm clueless, holier than thou, and speak in platitudes while accomplishing nothing, and paint yourself as the pragmatist making hard choices, and go on to assert the necessity of bombing hospitals, dropping atomic bombs, and murdering civilians, while footnoting that the death and destruction is necessary "(partly due to Israel's policies)".
So pragmatism is waking up, putting on your big-boy pants, and bombing hospitals and killing civilians, while us wacky, clueless, holier than thou people pontificate about something as crazy as... changing those policies. Got it.
(edited to move my comment out of the quote text)
But yea, you don't seem to mind being a shill for Hamas and announcing what your county must be like, while ignoring the decisions your country made. Maybe I should add hypocrite to the list of words. Also, lose the term big boy pants - it is so 2010. As far as getting it, your idealism is overruling your common sense.
Move the goal posts, deflect from the topic we were discussing and pivot to a new one, and add in more personal attacks. Boring. Not worth a real reply.
Thanks to others who engage in good faith and have independent thoughts worth sharing. This thread is mostly very compelling and I appreciate actual intellectual pushback from those who help sharpen my own thinking.
Of equal note is the type of manifestly absurd statements you've made which evidence your bias. For example, that Israel is destroying a people. In 1948 here were less than 1M Palestinian refugees. Today there are over 5M. If Israel is destroying a people, they're really bad at it. And if that is the intent, why are they asking civilians to leave Northern Gaza? It is fair (perhaps) to criticize the way Israel is waging a war (and it is a declared war). It is not fair to ignore what Israel does to avoid civilian casualties which stands in stark contrast to Hamas targeting of civilians and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Do you know who has killed more Palestinians than Israel? Hamas and other terrorist groups, not to mention many other Arabs! Hamas has done so directly to impose their rule by force and notably with rockets aimed at Israel that fall short and land in Gaza. The hospital bombing today appears to be exactly that. Yet there you are, making unqualified assertions that back up your bias.
It seems pretty clear your news sources are off or you are totally incapable of acknowledging nuance. There are UNSUBSTANTIATED Hamas claims that Israel bombed fleeing caravans - you state that as a fact. Those claims have been largely debunked - but if you prefer at a minimum they are hotly in dispute and there is no evidence of such bombings. Yet, like the hospital bombing, you adopt the propaganda unquestionably and use it to support your distorted views.
You also accuse Israel of occupying Gaza (despite the 2005 withdrawal), repeat allegations of apartheid and "war crimes", and then make the odd claim that Israel's alleged actions have "taken away even my ability to grieve for my fellow Jews". This is the most bizarre white washing and victim blaming I have seen in some time. Only "the jews" are at fault? You feels the sads for the Palestinians, but not the Jews? The innocent Israeli civilians (most of whom were, ironically, of the left) are totally undeserving of any of your sympathy?
And you offer literally NO proposed solution. What would you have Israel do in the face of two organizations (Hezbollah and Hamas) who, based on religion (and exhibiting the same religious zealotry you accuse Netanyahu of) are INTRACTIBLY against the existence of Israel and the presence of Jews in that area. That is the side you've picked - the side you feel bad for. What is your solution in dealing with these terrorists?
I feel bad for all parties. The Palestinians have endured decades of suffering in large part because their leaders (including Hamas) have failed them. Israel has contributed to that suffering and bears some blame. But don't white wash what certain Palestinians (those supporting violence and terrorism and corrupt leadership) have done (and failed to do).
If you truly cared about the Palestinian people, you'd spend less time demonizing Israel (and the USA) and instead advocate for the type of change that will actually elevate their standard of living - starting with the removal of Hamas.
1. The goalpost shifting was replying to wifeisafurd's comment that Hamas represents a similar existential threat as the Nazi Germans did to the Jews, and that war crimes are a normal part of war. I didn't see any reply on that matter, and instead the conversation shifted. I don't like to reply to people that just keep shifting the conversation without responding to the point at hand. His comments also were devolving into more and more personal attacks and accusations, and his last reply made clear he wasn't interested in discussing ideas that made him uncomfortable, as he explicitly asked me not to reply to him.
2. The hospital bombing is going to remain disputed for the forseeable future. Here is what I do know about it.
A. Hananya Naftali, a prominent Israeli social media influcer and IDF veteran, tweeted out and immediately deleted a post claiming credit for bombing the hospital right after the bombing occurred
Netanyahu-appointed Israeli Digital Spokesperson Hananya Naftali tweeted on 18 October 2023 admitting that Israel bombed the Baptist Hospital in Gaza, killing 500 civilians. He later deleted the tweet and blamed the attack on hamas after international outcry : r/ModernPropaganda (reddit.com)
(Please note before you make inferences about my sources that I had to do a Google images search for this, as I can't attach photos).
B. You may say well, what does Hananyan Naftali know as a comms guy? Hananyan Naftali is very close to Benjamin Netenyahu and has risen prominently in helping craft the public narrative around Israel and the Netenyahu administration. The rise of Hananya Naftali, social media star and pro-Israel influencer - JNS.org
How close is he to Netenyahu? Well, Netenyahu attended and toasted him at his wedding. He's not just some random comms guy. Prime Minister Netanyahu and Sara Bless Us At Our Wedding | Thank you Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and dear Sara for blessing us at our wedding. Truly amazing! India International | By Hananya Naftali | Facebook
C. What is he saying now? He's admitting that he tweeted and deleted claiming Israeli credit for bombing the hospital, and his story is now that he assumed it was a Hamas military cache, and that 'The IDF does not bomb hospitals.
Hananya Naftali on X: "Earlier today I shared a report that was published on @reuters about the bombing at the hospital in Gaza which falsely stated Israel struck the hospital. I mistakenly shared this information in a since deleted post in which I referenced Hamas' routine use of hospitals to storeā¦" / X (twitter.com)
D. Is that true? Does the IDF not bomb hospitals? Well, no. The IDF does bomb hospitals. You can say that Hamas uses them for military purposes, but that's a separate conversation. But the IDF does bomb hospitals, they have in the past, and they have in this conflict. They even bombed this very hospital twice earlier in the conflict, so-called 'knock on the roof bombs' encouraging the full evacuation and warning of a larger strike later.
Israel Airstrikes Tatter Strained Gaza Health Care System (theintercept.com) (2014)
Israel/Gaza: Attacks on medical facilities and civilians add to war crime allegations - Amnesty International (2014)
Nowhere to Hide in Gaza as Israeli Onslaught Continues - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (2023)
AHLI HOSPITAL STRUCK BY ROCKET FIRE | American Friends of the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem (afedj.org) - Al Ahil hospital struck by Israel in earlier attack on October 15th prior to October 17th attack.
E. So the IDF position that they don't bomb hospitals is not true. They have, and do, and in fact, bombed this very hospital just three days before. And a Netanyahu spokesperson took credit for bombing this hospital immediately after, then retracted the statement. Now we have heard a lot of conflicting information.
F. What is the conflicting information? Israel is saying it was a mis-fired Islamic Jihad missile. Let's suspend disbelief that an Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or other missile fired from Gaza at any point in time has ever been powerful enough to kill 500+, despite thousands having been launched over the years at Israel. Blaming Islamic Jihad is right out of the IDF playbook when an operation is met with public backlash. In 2022, the IDF killed 5 Palestinian children in a cemetary. Immediately, the IDF blamed Islamic Jihad, a group separate from Hamas. There was a lot of back and forth, a lot of conflicting reports, a lot of mis-information. Eventually, it was confirmed that the IDF did in fact kill 5 Palestinian boys that were visited a grave site to grieve. Gaza: Israel admits killing five children at cemetery after initially blaming Islamic Jihad | Middle East Eye
Similarly, when the IDF killed a prominent Palestinian-American journalist, they blamed Hamas, then said it's possible it was crossfire, before finally admitting it was likely accidental. Shireen Abu Akleh - Wikipedia
G. I am well aware of what Israeli intelligence is purporting, and I'm also well-aware that as of this morning, the U.S. "has collected "high confidence" signals intelligence showing that the explosion at a Gaza hospital compound on Tuesday was caused by the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
I am also still waiting for the evidence of the weapons of mass destruction that were the impetus for the last twenty years of our foreign policy.
I am also certain that this will continue to be debated for some time.
3. The Israeli bombing of evacuating caravans report isn't disputed as far as I'm aware. Please point me in the direction if I'm mistaken. 70 killed after convoys of evacuees in Gaza hit by Israeli airstrikes (nbcnews.com)
4. You start a straw-man argument by saying that I said Israel is trying to destroy a people, and then argue against a point I never made by showing the growth of the Palestinian population. Okay?
I said the following about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians: "humiliation, occupation, apartheid, collective punishment, physical and psychological torture'.
5. I don't really have an invested interest in Palestinian self-government in the same way I do the Israeli government. I'm not Palestinian, I'm not a Muslim, and my country doesn't actively participate in propping up the Palestinians as a military outpost with billions of dollars of aid, and with diplomatic cover in the UN. In that way, you can say that I'm biased and maybe even a little bit racist in that I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard than I hold Hamas, in large part because as a US taxpayer, I consider myself a stakeholder in the enterprises my tax dollars support.
6. Are you arguing that the Gaza strip isn't occupied since Israel 'vacated' it in 2005? Is that a semantic argument or a real one? Semantically, sure, we can sure it's Israeli 'controlled' territory since Israel technically did cease to occupy the territory formally in their 2005 withdrawl. Are you suggesting though that Gaza is not occupied in every other sense of the word? That they're a self-sufficient nation? This is an extremist view that runs counter to the United Nations. Here is their take on it, not mine, take it up with them as Israeli occupation over Gaza isn't an opinion so much as an international fact. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/11297
7. I agree, Hamas is not the way forward for peace and is not in the best interest of the Palestinians. So what's my way forward? An independent Palestinian state.
Again, as a US citizen and therefore taxpaying stakeholder in the affairs of our client state Israel, my opinions are what Israel can do, and what we can allow them to do. As a Jew, I also have some particular thoughts. First and foremost, I truly believe that it is my and others responsibility to not let the pain of my ancestors, the atrocities of the Holocaust and the very real violence associated with anti-Semetism be weaponized to justify the subjugation of another people.
As far as Hamas? Yes, I agree, they aren't serving the best interests of the Palestinians, and they need to go. But how did they get there? Why, they've risen in large part thanks to Benjamin Netenyahu, who legitimizes them as a partner, and urges their funding in order to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state. Don't beleive me? Here, he has said it himself. This isn't a conspiracy, these are his words:
"Those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas," he stated at a Likud party meeting in March 2019. "This is part of our strategy, to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria." - Benjamin Netenyahu
How Benjamin Netanyahu empowered Hamas... and broke Israel (telegraph.co.uk)
Israel has asymmetric military power relative to its peers, and largely in part because of US support. The war of 1967 shows that this is necessary for Israel to survive. However, Israel also has a responsibility to its citizens to behave as a good neighbor. Continued belligerence towards its neighboring nations and occupied Palestinian territories will only sow more conflict. If we just get rid of Hamas, bomb it into oblivion and kill thousands of Palestinians, in a few years, if we continue supporting the same Israeli policies, we will just have another Hamas, and another, and another, and each one will be worse and more desperate than the last.
So step one is to get rid of Netenyahu, then treat Palestinians as people with dignity and with a state, and continue to work towards a two state solution.
I'm happy to respond point by point. But I want to make a larger observation first - we should doubt any claims made by Hamas and the IDF. We should scrutinize both equally. In many cases, you seem to have no skepticism regarding Hamas' claims. And citing an NBC or other press story reporting what Hamas claims adds nothing. You (and the press) are just spreading propoganda.
Let's go point by point.
1. The goalpost shifting was replying to wifeisafurd's comment that Hamas represents a similar existential threat as the Nazi Germans did to the Jews, and that war crimes are a normal part of war. I didn't see any reply on that matter, and instead the conversation shifted. I don't like to reply to people that just keep shifting the conversation without responding to the point at hand. His comments also were devolving into more and more personal attacks and accusations, and his last reply made clear he wasn't interested in discussing ideas that made him uncomfortable, as he explicitly asked me not to reply to him.
2. The hospital bombing is going to remain disputed for the forseeable future. Here is what I do know about it.
IT WILL ONLY BE DISPUTED BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO REFUSE TO LOOK AT ACTUAL EVIDENCE - SEE MY PRIOR POST. THE REST OF WHAT YOU POSTED BELOW IS JUST SPECULATION/PERSONAL ATTACK ON NAFTALI AND INNUENDO. LOOK AT THE ACTUAL PHOTOS AND OTHER EVIDENCE - IT IS PRETTY CLEAR WHAT HAPPENED. AND LOOK AT THE ABSENCE OF ANY EVIDENCE PROVIDED BY HAMAS TO SUPPORT ITS CLAIM.
A. Hananya Naftali, a prominent Israeli social media influcer and IDF veteran, tweeted out and immediately deleted a post claiming credit for bombing the hospital right after the bombing occurred
Netanyahu-appointed Israeli Digital Spokesperson Hananya Naftali tweeted on 18 October 2023 admitting that Israel bombed the Baptist Hospital in Gaza, killing 500 civilians. He later deleted the tweet and blamed the attack on hamas after international outcry : r/ModernPropaganda (reddit.com)
(Please note before you make inferences about my sources that I had to do a Google images search for this, as I can't attach photos).
B. You may say well, what does Hananyan Naftali know as a comms guy? Hananyan Naftali is very close to Benjamin Netenyahu and has risen prominently in helping craft the public narrative around Israel and the Netenyahu administration. The rise of Hananya Naftali, social media star and pro-Israel influencer - JNS.org
How close is he to Netenyahu? Well, Netenyahu attended and toasted him at his wedding. He's not just some random comms guy. Prime Minister Netanyahu and Sara Bless Us At Our Wedding | Thank you Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and dear Sara for blessing us at our wedding. Truly amazing! India International | By Hananya Naftali | Facebook
C. What is he saying now? He's admitting that he tweeted and deleted claiming Israeli credit for bombing the hospital, and his story is now that he assumed it was a Hamas military cache, and that 'The IDF does not bomb hospitals.
Hananya Naftali on X: "Earlier today I shared a report that was published on @reuters about the bombing at the hospital in Gaza which falsely stated Israel struck the hospital. I mistakenly shared this information in a since deleted post in which I referenced Hamas' routine use of hospitals to storeā¦" / X (twitter.com)
D. Is that true? Does the IDF not bomb hospitals? Well, no. The IDF does bomb hospitals. You can say that Hamas uses them for military purposes, but that's a separate conversation. But the IDF does bomb hospitals, they have in the past, and they have in this conflict. They even bombed this very hospital twice earlier in the conflict, so-called 'knock on the roof bombs' encouraging the full evacuation and warning of a larger strike later.
WHY ARE HOSPITALS/SCHOOLS/MOSQUES BEING TARGETED? BECAUSE HAMAS IS USING THEM TO WAGE WAR WHICH MAKES THEM LEGITIMATE TARGETS. YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS CRITICAL FACT - THAT HAMAS USES THESE FACILITIES TO WAGE WAR - WHICH IS REALLY BEYOND DISPUTE. QUOTING FROM THIS LINK (WHICH RELATES TO UKRAINE):
"But humanitarian law is quite pragmatic so an exception applies when hospitals and mobile medical units are used, outside their humanitarian duty, to commit acts harmful to the enemy. The typical example would be the launching of an attack from a hospital. But even then, there must be a warning before the attack. If it remains unheeded and the hospital loses its protection, two fundamental principles of IHL apply to the attack:
- The principle of precaution, which requires the attacker to take all feasible precautions to minimise or avoid loss of lives and injury in the civilian population, as well as damage to civilian objects, for example by using sufficiently accurate weapons and munitions.
- The principle of proportionality, which requires ensuring that the attack will not cause excessive harm to civilians, compared to the anticipated military advantage."
Israel Airstrikes Tatter Strained Gaza Health Care System (theintercept.com) (2014)
Israel/Gaza: Attacks on medical facilities and civilians add to war crime allegations - Amnesty International (2014)
Nowhere to Hide in Gaza as Israeli Onslaught Continues - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (2023)
AHLI HOSPITAL STRUCK BY ROCKET FIRE | American Friends of the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem (afedj.org) - Al Ahil hospital struck by Israel in earlier attack on October 15th prior to October 17th attack.
E. So the IDF position that they don't bomb hospitals is not true. They have, and do, and in fact, bombed this very hospital just three days before. And a Netanyahu spokesperson took credit for bombing this hospital immediately after, then retracted the statement. Now we have heard a lot of conflicting information.
TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THIS IS NOT THE IDF POSITION - CITATION PLEASE. THE ISRAELI POSITION, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IS THAT IT ONLY TARGETS HOSPITALS, ETC. IF THEY ARE BEING USED FOR MILITARY PURPSOES. AGAIN, THAT IS AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION YOU IGNORE.
F. What is the conflicting information? Israel is saying it was a mis-fired Islamic Jihad missile. Let's suspend disbelief that an Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or other missile fired from Gaza at any point in time has ever been powerful enough to kill 500+, despite thousands having been launched over the years at Israel. Blaming Islamic Jihad is right out of the IDF playbook when an operation is met with public backlash. In 2022, the IDF killed 5 Palestinian children in a cemetary. Immediately, the IDF blamed Islamic Jihad, a group separate from Hamas. There was a lot of back and forth, a lot of conflicting reports, a lot of mis-information. Eventually, it was confirmed that the IDF did in fact kill 5 Palestinian boys that were visited a grave site to grieve. Gaza: Israel admits killing five children at cemetery after initially blaming Islamic Jihad | Middle East Eye
Similarly, when the IDF killed a prominent Palestinian-American journalist, they blamed Hamas, then said it's possible it was crossfire, before finally admitting it was likely accidental. Shireen Abu Akleh - Wikipedia
AS STATED ABOVE, CLAIMS BY ALL PARTIES SHOULD BE SCRUTINZED. THE IDF ADMITTED THE MISTAKE (BELATEDLY). THERE IS NO REASONABLE CLAIM THE JOURNALIST WAS TARGETED. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME HAMAS ADMITTED RESONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING - INCLUDING THE 30-40% OF THEIR MISSLES THAT FALL IN GAZA AND KILL THEIR OWN PEOPLE - LIKE YESTERDAY. CAN YOU CITE ONE EXAMPLE OF WHEN HAMAS HAS ADMITTED SUCH A THING?
G. I am well aware of what Israeli intelligence is purporting, and I'm also well-aware that as of this morning, the U.S. "has collected "high confidence" signals intelligence showing that the explosion at a Gaza hospital compound on Tuesday was caused by the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
I am also still waiting for the evidence of the weapons of mass destruction that were the impetus for the last twenty years of our foreign policy.
WMD - WHAT IN THE WORLD? YOU'RE INCREDICBLY SKEPTICAL OF US INTELLIGENCE, BUT HAPPY TO ADOPT WITHOUT QUESTION HAMAS CLAIMS. SERIOUSLY?,
I am also certain that this will continue to be debated for some time. DEBATED ONLY BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO REFUSE TO OBJECTIVELY EVALUATE THIRD PARTY EVIDENCE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT ADVANCE YOUR PREFERRED NARRATIVE. THE TWITTER THREAD I POSTED IS ONE OF LITERALLY HUNDREDS OUT THERE THAT DEBUNK THE HAMAS CLAIM. BUT HERE YOU ARE
3. The Israeli bombing of evacuating caravans report isn't disputed as far as I'm aware. Please point me in the direction if I'm mistaken. 70 killed after convoys of evacuees in Gaza hit by Israeli airstrikes (nbcnews.com)
YOU ARE MISTKEN. AS SIMPLE GOOGLE SEARCH CONFIRMS THERE IS AMPLE REPORTING DISPUTING THE IDEA THAT THE ISRAELI'S DID THIS. AGAIN - NO EVIDENCE OF A CRATER, NO EVIDENCE OF A ROCKET, ETC..explosion looks like it came from the white van pic.twitter.com/nSTjTTX7WR
— Nathan J Hunt (@ISNJH) October 14, 2023No Projectile in a 30fps scene? https://t.co/do6E2ijLjM pic.twitter.com/kXAxvUjWaq
— Aurora Intel (@AuroraIntel) October 14, 2023
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12631081/Shocking-moment-convoy-cars-fleeing-Gaza-Strip-rocked-explosion-safe-route-north-ahead-anticipated-Israeli-ground-invasion.html
4. You start a straw-man argument by saying that I said Israel is trying to destroy a people, and then argue against a point I never made by showing the growth of the Palestinian population. Okay?
STRAWMAN? YOU MADE THIS EXACT POST IN THIS THREAD:
"How can we grieve the death of 1,300 Jews when they're used as a justification to destroy a people? "
https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/117254/replies/2245682
I said the following about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians: "humiliation, occupation, apartheid, collective punishment, physical and psychological torture'.
5. I don't really have an invested interest in Palestinian self-government in the same way I do the Israeli government. I'm not Palestinian, I'm not a Muslim, and my country doesn't actively participate in propping up the Palestinians as a military outpost with billions of dollars of aid, and with diplomatic cover in the UN. In that way, you can say that I'm biased and maybe even a little bit racist in that I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard than I hold Hamas, in large part because as a US taxpayer, I consider myself a stakeholder in the enterprises my tax dollars support.
IT IS INCREDIBLY ODD (AND PER THE INTERNATIONAL DEFITION, ANTI-SEMETIC) TO HOLD ISRAEL TO A DIFFERENT STANDARD WHILE BASICALLY IGNORING HAMAS TERRORISM AND ACTS OF WAR. BUT OK - THAT'S YOUR PERROGATIVE. AND FOR THE RECORD, YOU'RE WRONG - THE US HAS GIVEN BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY INCLUDING ANOTHER 100m TODAY.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ds_of_antisemitism
6. Are you arguing that the Gaza strip isn't occupied since Israel 'vacated' it in 2005? Is that a semantic argument or a real one? Semantically, sure, we can sure it's Israeli 'controlled' territory since Israel technically did cease to occupy the territory formally in their 2005 withdrawl. Are you suggesting though that Gaza is not occupied in every other sense of the word? That they're a self-sufficient nation? This is an extremist view that runs counter to the United Nations. Here is their take on it, not mine, take it up with them as Israeli occupation over Gaza isn't an opinion so much as an international fact. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/11297
I'M SAYING THAT PALESTINIANS HAVE AGENCY AND BEAR SIGNIFICANT RESPONSIBILTY/BLAME FOR THEIR OWN PLIGHT. ISRAEL WITHDREW IN 2005 - THE PALESTINANS COULD HAVE BUILD A THRIVING AREA THAT WOULD HAVE EVENTUALLY BEEN PART OF A STATE. INSTEAD THEY HAVE WAGED WAR ON ISRAEL - EXPLICITLY - AND ISRAEL REACTED TO ADDRESS IS SECURITY CONCERNS. JUST LIKE ANY COUNTRY WOULD.
7. I agree, Hamas is not the way forward for peace and is not in the best interest of the Palestinians. So what's my way forward? An independent Palestinian state.
Again, as a US citizen and therefore taxpaying stakeholder in the affairs of our client state Israel, my opinions are what Israel can do, and what we can allow them to do. As a Jew, I also have some particular thoughts. First and foremost, I truly believe that it is my and others responsibility to not let the pain of my ancestors, the atrocities of the Holocaust and the very real violence associated with anti-Semetism be weaponized to justify the subjugation of another people.
FINE TO EXPECT ACCOUNTABILITY FROM THE US/ISRAEL. BUT YOU ARE IN FACT WHITEWASHING PALESTINIANS ACTIONS. IT IS NOT THE PAIN OF YOUR ANCESTORS THAT IS DRIVING THE CURRENT VIOLENCE - IT IS THE ATTACK FROM LAST WEEK AND THE PAST 50+ YEARS OF AVOWED VIOLENCE INTENDED TO EXTERMINATE ISRAEL. VIRTUALLY NO ONE IS IN FAVOR OF THE SUBJOGATION OF PALESTINIANS - BUT LOTS OF PALESTINIANS ARE IN FAVOR OF THE EXTERMINATION OF ISRAEL/JEWS. YOU'RE APPROACH IS BOTH NAIVE AND DENIES THE CURRENT REALITIES.
As far as Hamas? Yes, I agree, they aren't serving the best interests of the Palestinians, and they need to go. But how did they get there? Why, they've risen in large part thanks to Benjamin Netenyahu, who legitimizes them as a partner, and urges their funding in order to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state. Don't beleive me? Here, he has said it himself. This isn't a conspiracy, these are his words:
"Those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas," he stated at a Likud party meeting in March 2019. "This is part of our strategy, to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria." - Benjamin Netenyahu
How Benjamin Netanyahu empowered Hamas... and broke Israel (telegraph.co.uk)
IF YOU AGREE HAMAS SHOULD BE REMOVED, THEN THE REST OF WHAT YOU POSTED IS IRRELEVANT. IF NEYANYAHU/ISREAL MADE MISTAKES OR HAD A CYNICAL STRATEGY, IT DOESN'T MATTER AT THIS POINT. HAMAS MUST BE REMOVED.
Israel has asymmetric military power relative to its peers, and largely in part because of US support. The war of 1967 shows that this is necessary for Israel to survive. However, Israel also has a responsibility to its citizens to behave as a good neighbor. Continued belligerence towards its neighboring nations and occupied Palestinian territories will only sow more conflict. If we just get rid of Hamas, bomb it into oblivion and kill thousands of Palestinians, in a few years, if we continue supporting the same Israeli policies, we will just have another Hamas, and another, and another, and each one will be worse and more desperate than the last.
So step one is to get rid of Netenyahu, then treat Palestinians as people with dignity and with a state, and continue to work towards a two state solution.
AGAIN - BIZARELY NAIVE AND COMPLETELY IGNORING ANY RESPONSIBLITY/AGENCY ON THE PALESTINIANS. ISRAEL HAS SHOWN ON BELIGERENCE TO NEIGHBORING 'NATIONS" - IT DIRECTS ITS IRE AND HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS AND OTHER SIMILAR GROUPS. IT HAS REACHED ACCORDS WITH ITS NEIGHBORS - NONE OF WHOM INCIDENTALLY SUPPORT THE PALESTINIANS IN ANY REAL WAY.
AND I'LL POINT OUT - YOU HAVE NO SOLUTION AS OT HOW GETTING RID OF NETENYAHU SOLVES THIS. YOU HATE HIM - SO IT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD. BUT THAT LITERALLY SOLVES NOTHING BECAUSE HAMAS AND HEZBOLLAH WILL STILL BE THERE. YOU HAVE NO SOLUTION - OTHER THAN MAKEING YOURSELF FEEL BETTER BECAUSE OF SOME STRANGE NOTION OF JEWISH GUILT. ISRAEL IS MORE POWERFUL - THANK GOD, BECAUSE IF IT WASN'T IT WOULDN'T BE THERE.
I BELIEVE IT IS SAM STEIN WHO POINTS OUT THAT ISRAEL HAS THE FULL ABILITY TO DESTROY AND KILL ALL PALESTINIANS, BUT IT HASN'T. IF YOU GAVE THAT SAME POWER TO THE PALESTINIANS, WHAT WOULD BE THE RESULT? THERE WOULD BE NO ISRAEL AND NO JEWS IN THE MIDDLE EAST - THAT IS THEIR GOAL. YET YOU WANT TO DRAW A MORAL EQUIVALENCY.
2. THE PROOF YOU HAVE SHOWN IS NOT PROOF, IT IS OSINT CLICKBAIT, ISRAELI PRODUCED RECORDING OF A CALL THEY SUPPOSEDLY HAVE RECORDED OF THE EXACT PEOPLE LAUNCHING THIS EXACT STRIKE, AND A THEORY THAT ONE MISSILE FROM A NEARBY LAUNCH AT A SIMILAR TIME FROM EDITED VIDEO REMOVING CORRELATES TO SMOKING GUN EVIDENCE. I CAN PRODUCE SIMILAR COMPELLING OSINT CLICKBAIT LINKS OF SIMILAR BUT DIFFERENTLY EDITED VIDEOS WITH EQUALLY CONFIDENT OSITN CLICKBAIT NARRARATORS DRAWING COMPLETELY DIFERENT CONCLUSIONS. AS A NOD TO YOUR INTELIGENCE I WILL SPARE YOU THE VOODOO OSINT THEATER DANCE AND I WOULD APPRECIATE YOU SHOW ME THE SAME COURTESY.
What you typed above basically shows that no matter what evidence is presented - and what evidence is missing - you're going to cling to whatever belief supports your narrative. At this point, all available evidence (outside of Hamas' claims) points to this being a Hamas/PLF missile. If only you were as skeptical of Hamas as you are of all other sources.
And for the record, there is also no evidence 500 people died. While even 1 death would be too many, you're willing to adopt that (Hamas) claim absent any proof.
Same thing with the caravan - you think an Israeli missile took out the caravan without leaving any type of crater or shrapnel. A missile likely takes out the entire bridge and multiple cars, yet only one explodes. Ok.
from the bbc: "based on available evidence, it appears the explosion happened in a courtyard which is part of the hospital site. images of the ground after the blast do not show significant damage to surrounding hospital buildings."
— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) October 18, 2023
nyt: "a small impact crater, caused by theā¦
The Senate Intelligence Committee reviewed intelligence related to the attack on al-Ahli hospital in Gaza. Based on this information, we feel confident that the explosion was the result of a failed rocket launch by militant terrorists and not the result of an Israeli airstrike.
— Mark Warner (@MarkWarner) October 18, 2023
IDF says there was an increase in the number of rockets launched from Gaza that fell short in the Strip yesterday. According to the IDF, some 450 rockets have fallen short in Gaza since the fighting began on Oct. 7. pic.twitter.com/yszpdRRyv2
— Emanuel (Mannie) Fabian (@manniefabian) October 18, 2023
Wow this is still up. Zero percent of this is true. Hamas shot a rocket that hit a parking lot and likely only caused minor injuries.
— Comfortably Smug (@ComfortablySmug) October 18, 2023
A member of Congress spread disinformation leading to American embassies getting attacked and American lives being put at risk https://t.co/qSFWsOfP1x
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