2020 Election - Catch-all Thread

bearister
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KH just effectively put a bow on 2020 for tRump by shredding the only moronic candidate in the Democratic field that the low information voters of Arizona, Wisconsin, North Carolina and Florida will cast a vote for. The only thing that derails the Mad King at this point is A Cheeseburger Too Far scenario.

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dajo9
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Cal88 said:

You're the one who is digging deeper here, pushing the notion that going to school in 1977 Berkeley or 1980 Westmount, Canada as a minority daughter of college professors had anything to do with the experience of 1960s school busing pioneers. I don't think Harris was even really "bused", she has never lived in an urban ghetto.


Nobody is making comparisons here but you

I was bussed in a desegregation program in California for most of 1980 - 1985 (and I never lived in an urban ghetto). You have no idea what I experienced and you have no idea what Kamala Harris experienced. For me, it was not pleasant. She may have had a better experience. In fact, her whole point is not to say what a hardship it was, but to say it was a positive experience for her.

You just want to push talking points. You are making up things to do so. You have made it clear you have literally NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ON THIS ISSUE. I'm done discussing your idiotic notions on this topic with you.
An old white dude
Anarchistbear
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dajo9 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kind of odd to me that the big slam dunk moment of the night was on bussing to desegregate. I was bussed in a desegregation plan and it was terrible. Kamala Harris may have had a good experience but I don't think most bussed kids did (in fairness, I haven't spoken to many blacks about their bussing experience). My view is that you don't use kids to solve adult problems. Kids should go to school in their communities. Communities should be desegregated (easier said than done, I know).


It wasn't about busing. It was about painting Biden as old and out of touch as a pal of segregationists and working with segregationists to oppose integration. It was a lawyer's point that connected two things not in Biden's faux pas. Most people don't remember that busing was a failed experiment in the North and very unpopular

Biden's big strength is in the African American community. This was obviously a ploy to cut into that strength while labeling him as old and no friend of black people. She was laying for him and it worked. At the same time she establishes herself as the little girl of color bravely integrating the white school a la Little Rock. That doesn't really work under closer examination but it was a good sound bite
dajo9
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Are you ok, Anarchistbear? You are actually making sense today.

Edit - speaking to the strategy with Biden. Your last two sentences are off point, as per usual, because that's not something she did at all. That's just old white dude projection.
An old white dude
Anarchistbear
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Sad to say, you still aren't.
Cal88
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dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

You're the one who is digging deeper here, pushing the notion that going to school in 1977 Berkeley or 1980 Westmount, Canada as a minority daughter of college professors had anything to do with the experience of 1960s school busing pioneers. I don't think Harris was even really "bused", she has never lived in an urban ghetto.


Nobody is making comparisons here but you

I was bussed in a desegregation program in California for most of 1980 - 1985 (and I never lived in an urban ghetto). You have no idea what I experienced and you have no idea what Kamala Harris experienced. For me, it was not pleasant. She may have had a better experience. In fact, her whole point is not to say what a hardship it was, but to say it was a positive experience for her.

You just want to push talking points. You are making up things to do so. You have made it clear you have literally NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ON THIS ISSUE. I'm done discussing your idiotic notions on this topic with you.

It's about time you stopped digging, lol.
Cal88
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Anarchistbear said:

dajo9 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kind of odd to me that the big slam dunk moment of the night was on bussing to desegregate. I was bussed in a desegregation plan and it was terrible. Kamala Harris may have had a good experience but I don't think most bussed kids did (in fairness, I haven't spoken to many blacks about their bussing experience). My view is that you don't use kids to solve adult problems. Kids should go to school in their communities. Communities should be desegregated (easier said than done, I know).


It wasn't about busing. It was about painting Biden as old and out of touch as a pal of segregationists and working with segregationists to oppose integration. It was a lawyer's point that connected two things not in Biden's faux pas. Most people don't remember that busing was a failed experiment in the North and very unpopular

Biden's big strength is in the African American community. This was obviously a ploy to cut into that strength while labeling him as old and no friend of black people. She was laying for him and it worked. At the same time she establishes herself as the little girl of color bravely integrating the white school a la Little Rock. That doesn't really work under closer examination but it was a good sound bite

Exactly.
bearister
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Because of the prejudices still woven deeply into the fabric of America, as a woman and a person of color, KH's chances of being elected POTUS in this climate are a few inches north of Marianne Williamson, aka The Paraclete of Caborca's chances.

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Anarchistbear
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Whenever Marianne or Eric Swallwell spoke I really missed VEEP.
OdontoBear66
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dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kamala Harris has an upper middle class/professional background on both sides of her family, her parents, like Yang's, met at Cal in grad school, both were college profs, at Furd and McGill respectively. When she says she was "bussed" in high school, she really means she took the school bus to go to from her middle class home to well-funded schools that had been integrated long before she attended. It's not like she was bused into a segregated environment, or that she was struggling as a child in 1960s Selma Alabama...

And after her parents' divorce, she grew up in Westmount, the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Canada, the equivalent of Presidio Heights or Atherton. She's really misrepresenting her background here by suggesting that she's experienced social or racial hardship growing up, like many African Americans her age or older did.
I really don't understand your point. I was in a middle class home and got bussed to desegregate. That's irrelevant to the issue. She was part of the 2nd class to desegregate. You shouldn't presume to speak for her experience.
"For her experience" maybe not. But for her accuracy, Yes.
Cal88
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They really should have reduced the field to the top 10 or 12 max, we would have gotten a lot depth out of two 2 hr debates with 5 or 6 candidates each.

sycasey
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kamala Harris has an upper middle class/professional background on both sides of her family, her parents, like Yang's, met at Cal in grad school, both were college profs, at Furd and McGill respectively. When she says she was "bussed" in high school, she really means she took the school bus to go to from her middle class home to well-funded schools that had been integrated long before she attended. It's not like she was bused into a segregated environment, or that she was struggling as a child in 1960s Selma Alabama...

And after her parents' divorce, she grew up in Westmount, the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Canada, the equivalent of Presidio Heights or Atherton. She's really misrepresenting her background here by suggesting that she's experienced social or racial hardship growing up, like many African Americans her age or older did.
I really don't understand your point. I was in a middle class home and got bussed to desegregate. That's irrelevant to the issue. She was part of the 2nd class to desegregate. You shouldn't presume to speak for her experience.

You're trying hard not to, it's quite simple.

She has an upper middle class background and has not faced the kind of social and racial adversity growing up that many of her older African American peers faced, and that she is implying she has faced in her tweet above.

I didn't realize you had to be poor to feel the effects of racism.
dajo9
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OdontoBear66 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kamala Harris has an upper middle class/professional background on both sides of her family, her parents, like Yang's, met at Cal in grad school, both were college profs, at Furd and McGill respectively. When she says she was "bussed" in high school, she really means she took the school bus to go to from her middle class home to well-funded schools that had been integrated long before she attended. It's not like she was bused into a segregated environment, or that she was struggling as a child in 1960s Selma Alabama...

And after her parents' divorce, she grew up in Westmount, the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Canada, the equivalent of Presidio Heights or Atherton. She's really misrepresenting her background here by suggesting that she's experienced social or racial hardship growing up, like many African Americans her age or older did.
I really don't understand your point. I was in a middle class home and got bussed to desegregate. That's irrelevant to the issue. She was part of the 2nd class to desegregate. You shouldn't presume to speak for her experience.
"For her experience" maybe not. But for her accuracy, Yes.
What did she say that was inaccurate?
An old white dude
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

If you have open borders, which all of these candidates now advocate

What the hell are you talking about?
sycasey
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dajo9 said:

OdontoBear66 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kamala Harris has an upper middle class/professional background on both sides of her family, her parents, like Yang's, met at Cal in grad school, both were college profs, at Furd and McGill respectively. When she says she was "bussed" in high school, she really means she took the school bus to go to from her middle class home to well-funded schools that had been integrated long before she attended. It's not like she was bused into a segregated environment, or that she was struggling as a child in 1960s Selma Alabama...

And after her parents' divorce, she grew up in Westmount, the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Canada, the equivalent of Presidio Heights or Atherton. She's really misrepresenting her background here by suggesting that she's experienced social or racial hardship growing up, like many African Americans her age or older did.
I really don't understand your point. I was in a middle class home and got bussed to desegregate. That's irrelevant to the issue. She was part of the 2nd class to desegregate. You shouldn't presume to speak for her experience.
"For her experience" maybe not. But for her accuracy, Yes.
What did she say that was inaccurate?

As far as I can tell, all she said was that she was bused as a child and she liked it. We can interpret the purpose of her statement as we like, but factually there's nothing "wrong" about it.
dajo9
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I came in here with a slightly negative take on Harris' big moment and these knucklheads in here immediately have me defending her
An old white dude
Anarchistbear
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The question is whether Harris' attack worked. In some ways she had no choice; she's running fourth in polls of California voters in the CA primary and that means the money spigot will soon dry up. She also needs to take away blacks from Biden in the South so it was strategic

On one level I think it did. Biden looked befuddled and old- of course he always does. On the other hand I'm not sure how her aggressive stance plays among other Democrats or general voters or whether it moves Biden voters in her direction. From my unscientific polling of my wife's family in Mississippi- Older Men, Biden; Older Women, Biden and Harris; Younger Women, Harris and Warren; Younger Men, Sanders and Warren. The younger ones are less likely to vote.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kamala Harris has an upper middle class/professional background on both sides of her family, her parents, like Yang's, met at Cal in grad school, both were college profs, at Furd and McGill respectively. When she says she was "bussed" in high school, she really means she took the school bus to go to from her middle class home to well-funded schools that had been integrated long before she attended. It's not like she was bused into a segregated environment, or that she was struggling as a child in 1960s Selma Alabama...

And after her parents' divorce, she grew up in Westmount, the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Canada, the equivalent of Presidio Heights or Atherton. She's really misrepresenting her background here by suggesting that she's experienced social or racial hardship growing up, like many African Americans her age or older did.
I really don't understand your point. I was in a middle class home and got bussed to desegregate. That's irrelevant to the issue. She was part of the 2nd class to desegregate. You shouldn't presume to speak for her experience.

You're trying hard not to, it's quite simple.

She has an upper middle class background and has not faced the kind of social and racial adversity growing up that many of her older African American peers faced, and that she is implying she has faced in her tweet above.

I didn't realize you had to be poor to feel the effects of racism.
You don't think class and race are connected? It's a bit harder to be a victim of racism if you grew up in some of the most racially integrated upper middle class neighborhoods in North America. Late 1970s Berkeley and Westmount Canada aren't exactly 1965 Little Rock.

I doubt that Harris was in a real school busing program. Her "busing" experience amounts to taking the bus from a decent neighborhood to her local school every day, and somehow I don't think she's had to face any burning crosses and men in white hoods on Shattuck Avenue, or some kind of insidious racism at a school like Berkeley High in the late 70s.

Kamala Harris has had a fairly privileged upbringing and is a product of the SF Democrat machine. Her professional career was boosted by her personal relationship with one of the biggest cogs, Willie Brown. Those are important aspects of her profile when you consider that she is running on an identity politics platform, for example in her advocacy of slavery reparations.
bearister
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Another possible scenario is that tRump is such a sure thing, like Hillary in 2016, that he sh@ts the bed and snatches defeat from the jaws of victory.
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Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

If you have open borders, which all of these candidates now advocate

What the hell are you talking about?
Being against the deportation of illegal immigrants and for successive amnesties every decade amounts to having an open borders policy.
Cal Junkie
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

If you have open borders, which all of these candidates now advocate

What the hell are you talking about?
Being against the deportation of illegal immigrants and for successive amnesties every decade amounts to having an open borders policy.
I'm not against the deportation of immigrants who do not pass muster with background and character checks. However it is legal and constitutional to provide asylum for refugees until they are vetted or rejected (amnesty) while being forced to measure up to a pretty stiff standard.
OneKeg
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kamala Harris has an upper middle class/professional background on both sides of her family, her parents, like Yang's, met at Cal in grad school, both were college profs, at Furd and McGill respectively. When she says she was "bussed" in high school, she really means she took the school bus to go to from her middle class home to well-funded schools that had been integrated long before she attended. It's not like she was bused into a segregated environment, or that she was struggling as a child in 1960s Selma Alabama...

And after her parents' divorce, she grew up in Westmount, the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Canada, the equivalent of Presidio Heights or Atherton. She's really misrepresenting her background here by suggesting that she's experienced social or racial hardship growing up, like many African Americans her age or older did.
I really don't understand your point. I was in a middle class home and got bussed to desegregate. That's irrelevant to the issue. She was part of the 2nd class to desegregate. You shouldn't presume to speak for her experience.

You're trying hard not to, it's quite simple.

She has an upper middle class background and has not faced the kind of social and racial adversity growing up that many of her older African American peers faced, and that she is implying she has faced in her tweet above.

I didn't realize you had to be poor to feel the effects of racism.
You don't think class and race are connected? It's a bit harder to be a victim of racism if you grew up in some of the most racially integrated upper middle class neighborhoods in North America. Late 1970s Berkeley and Westmount Canada aren't exactly 1965 Little Rock.

I doubt that Harris was in a real school busing program. Her "busing" experience amounts to taking the bus from a decent neighborhood to her local school every day, and somehow I don't think she's had to face any burning crosses and men in white hoods on Shattuck Avenue, or some kind of insidious racism at a school like Berkeley High in the late 70s.

Kamala Harris has had a fairly privileged upbringing and is a product of the SF Democrat machine. Her professional career was boosted by her personal relationship with one of the biggest cogs, Willie Brown. Those are important aspects of her profile when you consider that she is running on an identity politics platform, for example in her advocacy of slavery reparations.
Seems like you guys are talking past each other.

You definitely do NOT have to be poor to feel the effects of racism. Sycasey's point stands.

And yes, class and race are certainly connected, but this is not a rebuttal of the first point.

I wasn't paying full attention - did Harris say that she faced burning crosses or endured crushing hardship? Or that Biden was sympathetic to KKK members?

I thought she was just speaking about segregation. And just because desegregation efforts failed in many cases (addressing race and class issues is complicated and faces stiff opposition!) doesn't somehow mean that the segregationists Biden was appeasing were anything but disgusting. Nor does Harris coming from a non-poor background somehow invalidate her point.

I mean holy crap, we have a rich guy who was born with a silver spoon jammed up his butt and who has never had to truly pay for his failures throughout life claiming to stand for regular working class Americans against the elite (and being believed), riding that sentiment all the way to the white house. Implying most Mexicans are rapists and thieves. Hugging the flag and talking about the constitution while he stomps all over democratic norms to a far greater extent than past presidents. Stating flat out that the Mueller report completely exonerated him. Implying that he should stay for a 3rd term or that foreign powers should pass on information about his opponents.

But no the REAL problem is that Harris' factual (I think?) statements implied that she was the victim of more racism than she actually was. I mean, I wasn't really a fan of Harris' gambit, and AnarchistBear's analysis may be right on that count. But give me a break with the selective criticism of her implications here.
Another Bear
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At 3:12 Christie nails it...Trump swings at everything, he can be baited. In which case I'd like to see the senator from California throw high and tight at Trump.

Chris Christie Inadvertently Gives Democrats The Key To Beating Donald Trump In A Debate
The former New Jersey governor revealed the president's "biggest weakness" on the debate stage.

OdontoBear66
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dajo9 said:

OdontoBear66 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kamala Harris has an upper middle class/professional background on both sides of her family, her parents, like Yang's, met at Cal in grad school, both were college profs, at Furd and McGill respectively. When she says she was "bussed" in high school, she really means she took the school bus to go to from her middle class home to well-funded schools that had been integrated long before she attended. It's not like she was bused into a segregated environment, or that she was struggling as a child in 1960s Selma Alabama...

And after her parents' divorce, she grew up in Westmount, the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Canada, the equivalent of Presidio Heights or Atherton. She's really misrepresenting her background here by suggesting that she's experienced social or racial hardship growing up, like many African Americans her age or older did.
I really don't understand your point. I was in a middle class home and got bussed to desegregate. That's irrelevant to the issue. She was part of the 2nd class to desegregate. You shouldn't presume to speak for her experience.
"For her experience" maybe not. But for her accuracy, Yes.
What did she say that was inaccurate?
Read dajo, read. I did not say she was inaccurate. You said her experience should not be presumed. I added that her accuracy can and should be. I could say the same about you.
Golden One
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B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.

Don't bet on it. Remember Kennedy-Johnson?
dajo9
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OdontoBear66 said:

dajo9 said:

OdontoBear66 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kamala Harris has an upper middle class/professional background on both sides of her family, her parents, like Yang's, met at Cal in grad school, both were college profs, at Furd and McGill respectively. When she says she was "bussed" in high school, she really means she took the school bus to go to from her middle class home to well-funded schools that had been integrated long before she attended. It's not like she was bused into a segregated environment, or that she was struggling as a child in 1960s Selma Alabama...

And after her parents' divorce, she grew up in Westmount, the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Canada, the equivalent of Presidio Heights or Atherton. She's really misrepresenting her background here by suggesting that she's experienced social or racial hardship growing up, like many African Americans her age or older did.
I really don't understand your point. I was in a middle class home and got bussed to desegregate. That's irrelevant to the issue. She was part of the 2nd class to desegregate. You shouldn't presume to speak for her experience.
"For her experience" maybe not. But for her accuracy, Yes.
What did she say that was inaccurate?
Read dajo, read. I did not say she was inaccurate. You said her experience should not be presumed. I added that her accuracy can and should be. I could say the same about you.
Oh, so you aren't saying Harris said anything inaccurate you're just giving us a public service announcement that if she did say anything inaccurate she could be judged on that. Got it. Thanks for the heads up.
An old white dude
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

If you have open borders, which all of these candidates now advocate

What the hell are you talking about?
Being against the deportation of illegal immigrants and for successive amnesties every decade amounts to having an open borders policy.

This is a REALLY strained definition of "open borders."
Cal88
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OneKeg said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kamala Harris has an upper middle class/professional background on both sides of her family, her parents, like Yang's, met at Cal in grad school, both were college profs, at Furd and McGill respectively. When she says she was "bussed" in high school, she really means she took the school bus to go to from her middle class home to well-funded schools that had been integrated long before she attended. It's not like she was bused into a segregated environment, or that she was struggling as a child in 1960s Selma Alabama...

And after her parents' divorce, she grew up in Westmount, the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Canada, the equivalent of Presidio Heights or Atherton. She's really misrepresenting her background here by suggesting that she's experienced social or racial hardship growing up, like many African Americans her age or older did.
I really don't understand your point. I was in a middle class home and got bussed to desegregate. That's irrelevant to the issue. She was part of the 2nd class to desegregate. You shouldn't presume to speak for her experience.

You're trying hard not to, it's quite simple.

She has an upper middle class background and has not faced the kind of social and racial adversity growing up that many of her older African American peers faced, and that she is implying she has faced in her tweet above.

I didn't realize you had to be poor to feel the effects of racism.
You don't think class and race are connected? It's a bit harder to be a victim of racism if you grew up in some of the most racially integrated upper middle class neighborhoods in North America. Late 1970s Berkeley and Westmount Canada aren't exactly 1965 Little Rock.

I doubt that Harris was in a real school busing program. Her "busing" experience amounts to taking the bus from a decent neighborhood to her local school every day, and somehow I don't think she's had to face any burning crosses and men in white hoods on Shattuck Avenue, or some kind of insidious racism at a school like Berkeley High in the late 70s.

Kamala Harris has had a fairly privileged upbringing and is a product of the SF Democrat machine. Her professional career was boosted by her personal relationship with one of the biggest cogs, Willie Brown. Those are important aspects of her profile when you consider that she is running on an identity politics platform, for example in her advocacy of slavery reparations.
Seems like you guys are talking past each other.

You definitely do NOT have to be poor to feel the effects of racism. Sycasey's point stands.

And yes, class and race are certainly connected, but this is not a rebuttal of the first point.

I wasn't paying full attention - did Harris say that she faced burning crosses or endured crushing hardship? Or that Biden was sympathetic to KKK members?

I thought she was just speaking about segregation. And just because desegregation efforts failed in many cases (addressing race and class issues is complicated and faces stiff opposition!) doesn't somehow mean that the segregationists Biden was appeasing were anything but disgusting. Nor does Harris coming from a non-poor background somehow invalidate her point.

I mean holy crap, we have a rich guy who was born with a silver spoon jammed up his butt and who has never had to truly pay for his failures throughout life claiming to stand for regular working class Americans against the elite (and being believed), riding that sentiment all the way to the white house. Implying most Mexicans are rapists and thieves. Hugging the flag and talking about the constitution while he stomps all over democratic norms to a far greater extent than past presidents. Stating flat out that the Mueller report completely exonerated him. Implying that he should stay for a 3rd term or that foreign powers should pass on information about his opponents.

But no the REAL problem is that Harris' factual (I think?) statements implied that she was the victim of more racism than she actually was. I mean, I wasn't really a fan of Harris' gambit, and AnarchistBear's analysis may be right on that count. But give me a break with the selective criticism of her implications here.

We pretty much agree on Harris here, she's overreached conjuring up the notion that she was some kind of 1960s busing program veteran. And that's a particularly relevant item when she is positioning herself as the identity politics candidate.

Yes, Trump has to be called out on his fibs as well, which the media does.

The real issue here is whether extremely liberal policies like reparations for 19th century slavery, free healthcare for illegals at a time when many Americans are paying huge premiums, and open border policies (ending deportations of illegals, which all the candidates were in favor last night IIRC), whether those policies are going to fly in MI, WI, OH, PA or FL.
Anarchistbear
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Golden One said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.

Don't bet on it. Remember Kennedy-Johnson?


For sure. Worked out well for LBJ. Biden is likely to croak or be a one term President.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

If you have open borders, which all of these candidates now advocate

What the hell are you talking about?
Being against the deportation of illegal immigrants and for successive amnesties every decade amounts to having an open borders policy.

This is a REALLY strained definition of "open borders."
How much of a strain is it really if you can cross the border on foot, cannot be deported, and can receive benefits including free healthcare.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

If you have open borders, which all of these candidates now advocate

What the hell are you talking about?
Being against the deportation of illegal immigrants and for successive amnesties every decade amounts to having an open borders policy.

This is a REALLY strained definition of "open borders."
How much of a strain is it really if you can cross the border on foot, cannot be deported, and can receive benefits including free healthcare.

As long as the border is patrolled and people are deported at all, it's not an open border. I don't think any Democratic candidate has advocated for zero deportations.

How difficult you make it for immigrants is another question.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Hehe, damn. Kamala came to thrown down. We all know it ain't ever gonna be Biden-Harris.


Kamala Harris has an upper middle class/professional background on both sides of her family, her parents, like Yang's, met at Cal in grad school, both were college profs, at Furd and McGill respectively. When she says she was "bussed" in high school, she really means she took the school bus to go to from her middle class home to well-funded schools that had been integrated long before she attended. It's not like she was bused into a segregated environment, or that she was struggling as a child in 1960s Selma Alabama...

And after her parents' divorce, she grew up in Westmount, the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Canada, the equivalent of Presidio Heights or Atherton. She's really misrepresenting her background here by suggesting that she's experienced social or racial hardship growing up, like many African Americans her age or older did.
I really don't understand your point. I was in a middle class home and got bussed to desegregate. That's irrelevant to the issue. She was part of the 2nd class to desegregate. You shouldn't presume to speak for her experience.

You're trying hard not to, it's quite simple.

She has an upper middle class background and has not faced the kind of social and racial adversity growing up that many of her older African American peers faced, and that she is implying she has faced in her tweet above.

I didn't realize you had to be poor to feel the effects of racism.
You don't think class and race are connected? It's a bit harder to be a victim of racism if you grew up in some of the most racially integrated upper middle class neighborhoods in North America. Late 1970s Berkeley and Westmount Canada aren't exactly 1965 Little Rock.

I doubt that Harris was in a real school busing program. Her "busing" experience amounts to taking the bus from a decent neighborhood to her local school every day, and somehow I don't think she's had to face any burning crosses and men in white hoods on Shattuck Avenue, or some kind of insidious racism at a school like Berkeley High in the late 70s.

Kamala Harris has had a fairly privileged upbringing and is a product of the SF Democrat machine. Her professional career was boosted by her personal relationship with one of the biggest cogs, Willie Brown. Those are important aspects of her profile when you consider that she is running on an identity politics platform, for example in her advocacy of slavery reparations.

OneKeg already pointed it out, but none of this actually addresses my point.
OneKeg
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Cal88 said:

OneKeg said:

Cal88 said:


...
Seems like you guys are talking past each other.

You definitely do NOT have to be poor to feel the effects of racism. Sycasey's point stands.

And yes, class and race are certainly connected, but this is not a rebuttal of the first point.

I wasn't paying full attention - did Harris say that she faced burning crosses or endured crushing hardship? Or that Biden was sympathetic to KKK members?

I thought she was just speaking about segregation. And just because desegregation efforts failed in many cases (addressing race and class issues is complicated and faces stiff opposition!) doesn't somehow mean that the segregationists Biden was appeasing were anything but disgusting. Nor does Harris coming from a non-poor background somehow invalidate her point.

I mean holy crap, we have a rich guy who was born with a silver spoon jammed up his butt and who has never had to truly pay for his failures throughout life claiming to stand for regular working class Americans against the elite (and being believed), riding that sentiment all the way to the white house. Implying most Mexicans are rapists and thieves. Hugging the flag and talking about the constitution while he stomps all over democratic norms to a far greater extent than past presidents. Stating flat out that the Mueller report completely exonerated him. Implying that he should stay for a 3rd term or that foreign powers should pass on information about his opponents.

But no the REAL problem is that Harris' factual (I think?) statements implied that she was the victim of more racism than she actually was. I mean, I wasn't really a fan of Harris' gambit, and AnarchistBear's analysis may be right on that count. But give me a break with the selective criticism of her implications here.

We pretty much agree on Harris here, she's overreached conjuring up the notion that she was some kind of 1960s busing program veteran. And that's a particularly relevant item when she is positioning herself as the identity politics candidate.

Yes, Trump has to be called out on his fibs as well, which the media does.

The real issue here is whether extremely liberal policies like reparations for 19th century slavery, free healthcare for illegals at a time when many Americans are paying huge premiums, and open border policies (ending deportations of illegals, which all the candidates were in favor last night IIRC), whether those policies are going to fly in MI, WI, OH, PA or FL.
No we don't agree and you know it.

I think Trump's misrepresentations and "conjurations" are orders of magnitude worse and more numerous than Harris', and no the "media" really does not do a good job covering all of it since:
- The sheer magnitude of Trump's constant lying and self-serving deception is so great that there is fatigue (which is Trump's tactic I think) and...
- The most powerful, influential entity in "media" in the US is Fox, and they absolutely do not call him out on it the vast majority of the time. Often, they don't even mention it.

And it's pretty clear you disagree with me, when you use the throwaway diminutive "fibs" to describe the above.

You also keep calling Kamala Harris an "identity politics candidate" when on the flip side, Trump is the most strident identity politician going right now. So his constant campaign lies and misrepresentation about representing the (white) working class and others not born into wealth is just as relevant, probably much more so.

Meanwhile you spend a longer paragraph talking about Harris "overreach" and "conjuring." What she did last night is typical politician fare - not lying, but implying something was greater than it is. She never said she experienced KKK/Jim Crow-style racism but maybe she implied it? Okay - but even then it's a matter of degree. I also grew up in the bay area and am around her age and non-white. I have zero doubt that she experienced some racism, though nowhere near the extremes that you juxtapose to discredit her (even though she never said she was a victim of extreme racism). Not a big fan of her gambit, but it's a far far cry less egregious than what Trump does all the time. But to you, it's what you want to focus on. So again, no we don't agree. But that's no surprise - we're not going to convince each other.

And then of course in your last paragraph, you switch to Republican talking points for what they perceive as Dem weaknesses. Yep, you're right, those liberal positions might not fly in swing states. And you'll be here to help hammer it home so you do your part. Since I'm not a politician, I have no problem saying I agree with those Dem positions.

Of course, other positions like not enabling a tax bill that is a windfall to corporations during an economic up cycle and significantly expanding the deficit without much evidence that it trickled down to help job growth more than was already happening in 2016 and earlier. Those might be better for Dems to focus on? Dunno honestly.

If I had to guess, Trump wins in 2020 for a number of reasons. Not the popular vote, but the electoral college, which is what matters. No amount of people that share my views in California is going to change that. But we'll see.

(Edited for grammar and typos)
B.A. Bearacus
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Snippets from that first debate must still be part of the GOP jerk off reel (especially for Evangelicals and a couple of people on here).


okaydo
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bearister said:

KH just effectively put a bow on 2020 for tRump by shredding the only moronic candidate in the Democratic field that the low information voters of Arizona, Wisconsin, North Carolina and Florida will cast a vote for. The only thing that derails the Mad King at this point is A Cheeseburger Too Far scenario.



The beauty of the U.S. presidential election is that it's a marathon. If Biden is having trouble now, then he clearly is going to have his ass kicked by Trump anyway.

As I've said before, the low information voter is lost. They are gone. Also, many of them will be dead by the next election. While many of the young people, espeically those born in the late 90s/early 2000s wwho will vote for the first time, will be turned off by Biden. You need to generate excitement, not play it safe. Don't fight fire with fire.
 
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