OT: Trump/Russians/Robert Mueller

sycasey
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BearNIt said:

what do the Russians have on Trump?
Pretty sure a lot of his money is tied up with Russian oligarchs.

http://fortune.com/2017/05/17/donald-trump-russia-2/

Follow the money.
BearNIt
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BearNIt said:

Mueller filed a Statement of Fact in connection with the Flynn plea which indicates that Flynn had meetings with the "Russian Ambassador about the sanctions and then advised a senior transition official and a very senior transition official." This description could pertain to Mike Pence, Kushner, Trump Jr., or Trump. ABC's report that Trump directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians makes me wonder, what do the Russians have on Trump?
Reports indicate that the "very senior transition official" that Flynn advised about sanctions was Jared Kushner. Looks like Jared could get the old man's room at the Federal prison. Will Ivanka wait for him? Who else will get implicated and is the charge of Collusion getting easier to prove now that Kushner is on the hook. What will Trump do or not do to save his son in law? What conversations did Jared and Trump or Trump Jr. have about Russia? Will Kushner give up Trump or Trump Jr.? Mueller knows the story but isn't showing his hand.
BearNIt
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sycasey said:

BearNIt said:

what do the Russians have on Trump?
Pretty sure a lot of his money is tied up with Russian oligarchs.

http://fortune.com/2017/05/17/donald-trump-russia-2/

Follow the money.
Trump was mobbed up with the 5 families and the Russians. You couldn't get concrete poured or no trade union problems in New York during the 70s and 80s without some type of agreement in place. That is why he is so scared of Mueller looking at his finances going as far back as the seventies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/trump-swam-in-mob-infested-waters-in-early-years-as-an-nyc-developer/2015/10/16/3c75b918-60a3-11e5-b38e-06883aacba64_story.html?utm_term=.2d5f0d74024d

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/11/nyregion/the-mafia-of-the-1980-s-divided-and-under-seige.html?pagewanted=all
tequila4kapp
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ABC news issues a "clarification" (now correction) on its story. Instead of candidate Trump ordering Flynn to talk to Russia - obvious implication that it relates to campaign collusion - we now see it was after the election transition activity related to UN Security Council resolution on Israel, etc. in other words, completely legal and legitimate.

Either Flynn and the other guy lied to the FBI because there's some huge nefarious thing going on (so far not uncovered by any of the 5 or more government investigations) or Mueller is being hyper aggressive to get any conviction in any way for anything because there's no there there on Trump collusion.
sycasey
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tequila4kapp said:

ABC news issues a "clarification" (now correction) on its story. Instead of candidate Trump ordering Flynn to talk to Russia - obvious implication that it relates to campaign collusion - we now see it was after the election transition activity related to UN Security Council resolution on Israel, etc. in other words, completely legal and legitimate.

Either Flynn and the other guy lied to the FBI because there's some huge nefarious thing going on (so far not uncovered by any of the 5 or more government investigations) or Mueller is being hyper aggressive to get any conviction in any way for anything because there's no there there on Trump collusion.
Hah, too good to be true on that ABC thing.

Still remains to be seen what Mueller's end game is here. I don't think he'd be offering Flynn a deal unless there was something bigger he's looking to get.

It's either collusion with a hostile foreign power or simple rank incompetence within the Trump Administration, neither of which is a reassuring thought.
Cave Bear
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tequila4kapp said:

ABC news issues a "clarification" (now correction) on its story. Instead of candidate Trump ordering Flynn to talk to Russia - obvious implication that it relates to campaign collusion - we now see it was after the election transition activity related to UN Security Council resolution on Israel, etc. in other words, completely legal and legitimate.
It is not legitimate.

It is supposed to be a sacred principle in the federal government that there is only ever one president at any time. It is not appropriate for the president-elect to collaborate with a foreign government--even an ally such as Israel--to sabotage the diplomatic policy of the sitting president. It is not forbidden by statute, but it is an unconstitutional exercise of power. Under an ordinary administration that would be a big deal but it's essentially superfluous as an article to condemn Trump. The nation bleeds from its soul each day that lizard occupies that office.
bearister
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"Here's my suggestion to any burger-joint franchise looking to expand in a blue state: Create a new sandwich consisting of two mammoth meat patties separated by a fried egg, slathered in barbecue sauce and served with fried onions, bacon, guacamole, two tomato slices and a dash of habanero sauce, on a buttered sesame seed bun.

"Call it the Nothingburger. You can eat all 1,900 calories of it and still pretend you're on a diet.

"That's the dish that Robert Mueller just served with the guilty plea of the disgraced National Security Adviser Michael Flynn. For months, the Nothingburger right has tried to claim that the special counsel was another Captain Ahab and collusion his white whale, that Paul Manafort was being brought up on charges that had nothing to do with his work for Trump, that the foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos was a nonentity in the campaign, and that evidence of collusion between the president and the Kremlin was thinner than Soviet toilet paper.

"That version of events is impossible to sustain. A 'very senior member' of the presidential transition team directed Flynn while he was in contact with the Russian Embassy, undermining the Obama administration's foreign policy in its final days at a minimum, a violation of the old Logan Act. Was it Jared Kushner who directed these contacts? And did Trump direct Kushner?" Bret Stephens, NY Times
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BearNIt
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tequila4kapp said:

ABC news issues a "clarification" (now correction) on its story. Instead of candidate Trump ordering Flynn to talk to Russia - obvious implication that it relates to campaign collusion - we now see it was after the election transition activity related to UN Security Council resolution on Israel, etc. in other words, completely legal and legitimate.

Either Flynn and the other guy lied to the FBI because there's some huge nefarious thing going on (so far not uncovered by any of the 5 or more government investigations) or Mueller is being hyper aggressive to get any conviction in any way for anything because there's no there there on Trump collusion.
IMO: The key is Flynn has something of real value to trade otherwise Mueller wouldn't have allowed him to enter a plea agreement with a Statement of Fact for just the lying to the Feds. There are so many other charges that Flynn and his son could be charged with concerning his activities as a foreign agent during the campaign and during the transition. In addition he could be charged with money laundering. Mueller already knows that Kushner, Trump Jr., and Sessions have lied on security clearance forms and when they provided testimony due to subpoenaed documents and the testimony of others involved in the Trump administration. Mueller is getting his ducks in a row to go after Trump and Pence. He will use Sessions, Trump Jr. and Kushner to get to these two. Kushner is dangerous to Trump as evidenced by his being pushed to the background by the Trump legal team. For Trump the firing of Comey, the statements made to Lester Holt and the Russians regarding the firing, various tweets, and the calls to various Republican senators to end the investigations, all lend themselves towards obstruction at the very least. The only question I have is whether other charges can be made against Trump for conspiracy, collusion, and his business dealings with the Russian? Also, what did Pence know and when did he know it as part of the transition team?
BearDevil
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BearNIt said:

tequila4kapp said:

ABC news issues a "clarification" (now correction) on its story. Instead of candidate Trump ordering Flynn to talk to Russia - obvious implication that it relates to campaign collusion - we now see it was after the election transition activity related to UN Security Council resolution on Israel, etc. in other words, completely legal and legitimate.

Either Flynn and the other guy lied to the FBI because there's some huge nefarious thing going on (so far not uncovered by any of the 5 or more government investigations) or Mueller is being hyper aggressive to get any conviction in any way for anything because there's no there there on Trump collusion.
IMO: The key is Flynn has something of real value to trade otherwise Mueller wouldn't have allowed him to enter a plea agreement with a Statement of Fact for just the lying to the Feds. There are so many other charges that Flynn and his son could be charged with concerning his activities as a foreign agent during the campaign and during the transition. In addition he could be charged with money laundering. Mueller already knows that Kushner, Trump Jr., and Sessions have lied on security clearance forms and when they provided testimony due to subpoenaed documents and the testimony of others involved in the Trump administration. Mueller is getting his ducks in a row to go after Trump and Pence. He will use Sessions, Trump Jr. and Kushner to get to these two. Kushner is dangerous to Trump as evidenced by his being pushed to the background by the Trump legal team. For Trump the firing of Comey, the statements made to Lester Holt and the Russians regarding the firing, various tweets, and the calls to various Republican senators to end the investigations, all lend themselves towards obstruction at the very least. The only question I have is whether other charges can be made against Trump for conspiracy, collusion, and his business dealings with the Russian? Also, what did Pence know and when did he know it as part of the transition team?


Would be a huge blunder if Mueller let much more serious crimes slide by both Flynns and he can't take down Trump, Pence, or Sessions without Flynn.

Trump can pardon any of his cronies of federal charges, but not state charges. Reasonably safe bet that Manafort. Jared, Trump Jr, and Trump laundered foreign money in various developments. Not clear if Manafort wasn't needed or thinks he can beat charges.

Find it highly unlikely that Trump Jr or Pence will flip. Pence will do anything to become POTUS and he needs Trump's base in 2020 if Trump is removed. Uday and Qusay are terrified of Pops.

Sessions and Jared are wild cards. Sessions' career is over. He'll never be VP and going back to the Senate or Governor of Alabama would be a huge step down. Trump's trashed him bigly, so he won't be a good soldier.

Jared's dad went to the big house and he doesn't want to follow. Ivanka would have to chose between Jared and her dad. Think she'd side with Jared for her kids' sake. Trump kids have to know how horrible Pops is, but Tiffany is the only one who's refused to be held hostage.
BearNIt
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BearDevil said:

BearNIt said:

tequila4kapp said:

ABC news issues a "clarification" (now correction) on its story. Instead of candidate Trump ordering Flynn to talk to Russia - obvious implication that it relates to campaign collusion - we now see it was after the election transition activity related to UN Security Council resolution on Israel, etc. in other words, completely legal and legitimate.

Either Flynn and the other guy lied to the FBI because there's some huge nefarious thing going on (so far not uncovered by any of the 5 or more government investigations) or Mueller is being hyper aggressive to get any conviction in any way for anything because there's no there there on Trump collusion.
IMO: The key is Flynn has something of real value to trade otherwise Mueller wouldn't have allowed him to enter a plea agreement with a Statement of Fact for just the lying to the Feds. There are so many other charges that Flynn and his son could be charged with concerning his activities as a foreign agent during the campaign and during the transition. In addition he could be charged with money laundering. Mueller already knows that Kushner, Trump Jr., and Sessions have lied on security clearance forms and when they provided testimony due to subpoenaed documents and the testimony of others involved in the Trump administration. Mueller is getting his ducks in a row to go after Trump and Pence. He will use Sessions, Trump Jr. and Kushner to get to these two. Kushner is dangerous to Trump as evidenced by his being pushed to the background by the Trump legal team. For Trump the firing of Comey, the statements made to Lester Holt and the Russians regarding the firing, various tweets, and the calls to various Republican senators to end the investigations, all lend themselves towards obstruction at the very least. The only question I have is whether other charges can be made against Trump for conspiracy, collusion, and his business dealings with the Russian? Also, what did Pence know and when did he know it as part of the transition team?


Would be a huge blunder if Mueller let much more serious crimes slide by both Flynns and he can't take down Trump, Pence, or Sessions without Flynn.

Trump can pardon any of his cronies of federal charges, but not state charges. Reasonably safe bet that Manafort. Jared, Trump Jr, and Trump laundered foreign money in various developments. Not clear if Manafort wasn't needed or thinks he can beat charges.

Find it highly unlikely that Trump Jr or Pence will flip. Pence will do anything to become POTUS and he needs Trump's base in 2020 if Trump is removed. Uday and Qusay are terrified of Pops.

Sessions and Jared are wild cards. Sessions' career is over. He'll never be VP and going back to the Senate or Governor of Alabama would be a huge step down. Trump's trashed him bigly, so he won't be a good soldier.

Jared's dad went to the big house and he doesn't want to follow. Ivanka would have to chose between Jared and her dad. Think she'd side with Jared for her kids' sake. Trump kids have to know how horrible Pops is, but Tiffany is the only one who's refused to be held hostage.
Without knowing the ins and outs of of plea agreements, couldn't Mueller hold the other charges as leverage against Flynn and his son in exchange for testimony. I thought the plea agreement only extended to those issues indicated in the Statement of Fact, Flynn could always be charged with the other crimes at a later date if he doesn't fulfill his obligations according to the plea agreement. Also, Mueller would have to have an idea of what Flynn could testify to with regard to those higher up on the food chain, and would have to be able to verify some of what Flynn's testimony would be before entering into such an agreement. Mueller doesn't appear to be somebody who would take shortcuts in an effort to do secure testimony, and do a complete and thorough investigation.

My comments about Pence come from my belief that as an important part of the transition team. Pence would likely have to had knowledge about what Flynn was up to, and Kushner or Trump Jr would be able to testify to past knowledge and could be persuaded to testify against an individual who had no family connection such as Pence. The same situation applies to Sessions, who is already under investigation and has had to comeback to Congress 3 times to correct his testimony because he forgot certain interactions he had with Russians.

I agree that Trump can pardon whoever he likes, but that pardon would extend to the federal charges and not the state charges that would be brought by the New York State Attorney General who has had meetings with Mueller about this very scenario. How much jail time would it take before Trump Jr. and Jared started to sing? Trump is in his 70s and Trump Jr. and Jared are young ,have young wives, and have young children. Jared knows how much this affected his family and might not be willing to do time while Ivanka and the kids wait for his release. Trump has money however and money can buy silence in wealthy families with a promise.
oski003
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Why would you plea someone you are going to rely on for future testimony with lying? Why discredit your own witness? If he can get Flynn on all this stuff, why lying?
BearNIt
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oski003 said:

Why would you plea someone you are going to rely on for future testimony with lying? Why discredit your own witness? If he can get Flynn on all this stuff, why lying?
My understanding according to interviews with past federal prosecutors is that you would have Flynn enter into a plea agreement for the lying to the feds with the Statement of Fact. He admits to what he has done and comes clean. As part of the plea agreement he must provide truthful and accurate testimony otherwise the plea agreement doesn't stand and he will be prosecuted for everything that Mueller has on him. His admission doesn't prevent him from providing truthful and accurate testimony about information that is material to the investigations. Flynn would have intimate knowledge about what went on during the time that he was with the Trump campaign, transition and administration. Mueller already has testimony from others, emails, and documents which give him an idea of what went on, the only thing he needs is a witness to corroborate his investigation of obstruction, collusion, or conspiracy as he works his way up the food chain. Ultimately, the truthfulness of Flynn's testimony would be up to those that sit in judgement of those accused of crimes, but Mueller will make sure that there is evidence that backs up what Flynn will testify to. I would liken it to Organized Crime or Drug Cartel cases where a former member of the organization enters into a plea agreement and then provides testimony for the Federal Prosecutor in connection with their case.
Unit2Sucks
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I think one, if not the main, reason Mueller forced this plea now was to artfully release information. The release of the statement of facts is powerful (like it was for Papadopolous) because it signals to everyone what kind of bad facts are out there, causes conspirators to scramble to protect themselves, forces people's hands and causes people like Trump to make statements that Mueller will quite easily later be able to prove were false.

We don't know what other information Mueller has or what other crimes he has on these guys but we do know that Mueller and his team have thought about it and were deliberate in choosing what information to release. Think of this as a purposeful and lawful leak.

There are very few absolutes in life, but one I think we can count on is that Mueller and his team is incredibly thorough, careful and thoughtful about how to prosecute this case and infinitely more organized than the various targets and their counsel. If anyone is playing 4D chess, it's Mueller.
BearChemist
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You can tell the pieces are falling into place when Trump's personal lawyer starts arguing "president cannot obstruct justice."
sycasey
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BearChemist said:

You can tell the pieces are falling into place when Trump's personal lawyer starts arguing "president cannot obstruct justice."
BearNIt
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sycasey said:

BearChemist said:

You can tell the pieces are falling into place when Trump's personal lawyer starts arguing "president cannot obstruct justice."

It's no longer the assertion from the Trump lawyers that he didn't commit obstruction, it's now that he can't commit obstruction by virtue of his being POTUS. Hmmmmmmm! I certainly have my reservations about the tweet over the weekend which is another nail in the obstruction coffin and was attributed to the Trump lawyer who will be interviewed by Mueller about the tweet in question.
bearister
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https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/12/04/can-the-president-obstruct-justice-216008
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BearNIt
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Adam Schiff indicated that when Trump Jr acknowledged that the meeting with the Russians occurred, that the meeting was discussed with Trump. When questioned about what was discussed Trump Jr. advised that he would not answer the question about what was discussed with the President citing Attorney-Client Privilege. If there are any attorneys who can comment on how such a privilege between a father and a son who are not attorneys can be claimed, I would greatly appreciate it.
bearister
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socaliganbear
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So is this a sponsored tweet?

BearChemist
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A concerted effort from Republicans members of both chambers, WH counsel, and outside dogs in undermining Muller's reputation and potential investigation findings. You don't do this while praised for Muller's character 6 months ago if there is nothing to hide.

A storm is comming and I hope righteousness prevails.
OBear073akaSMFan
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BearChemist said:

A concerted effort from Republicans members of both chambers, WH counsel, and outside dogs in undermining Muller's reputation and potential investigation findings. You don't do this while praised for Muller's character 6 months ago if there is nothing to hide.

A storm is comming and I hope righteousness prevails.
Yep they are putting party above country. The Moron hammers at how incompetent the FBI are and doesn't believe the Intelligence agencies about Russia's interference and yet he takes Putin word that he didn't. The Moron has done his best to stymied Mueller's investigation. Why can't the republicans see this? What an embarrassment.
BearDevil
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Rumor is that Trump will fire Mueller on Friday. Scary how much GOP pols have rolled over for Trump. Looks like Lindsey Graham will replace Tillerson as SOS, no other explanation for becoming such a docile lap dog.
BearNIt
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The Republican's that are engaged in character assassination and the vilification of the FBI investigation will be forever linked with the Trump administration and will suffer the consequences should they or Trump attempt to end the investigation prematurely. A majority of people in this country suspect that something illegal occurred involving Trump. If you are a Republican, do you risk your congressional position by ending the investigation to keep Trump in office?
BearChemist
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BearDevil said:

Rumor is that Trump will fire Mueller on Friday. Scary how much GOP pols have rolled over for Trump. Looks like Lindsey Graham will replace Tillerson as SOS, no other explanation for becoming such a docile lap dog.
So he is banking on no one will bother to resist during holidays? Or aim at being the center of dinner table conversations of all families?
bearister
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BearChemist said:

BearDevil said:

Rumor is that Trump will fire Mueller on Friday. Scary how much GOP pols have rolled over for Trump. Looks like Lindsey Graham will replace Tillerson as SOS, no other explanation for becoming such a docile lap dog.
So he is banking on no one will bother to resist during holidays? Or aim at being the center of dinner table conversations of all families?


"There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious-makes you so sick at heart that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all."
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OBear073akaSMFan
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BearChemist said:

A concerted effort from Republicans members of both chambers, WH counsel, and outside dogs in undermining Muller's reputation and potential investigation findings. You don't do this while praised for Muller's character 6 months ago if there is nothing to hide.

A storm is comming and I hope righteousness prevails.
If for some reason Mueller is fired, I hope there will be civil unrest starting at the Trump Tower & spreading to all of his holdings, including his golf courses. I have no doubt people will take to the street.
sonofabear51
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Agreed. I feel a lot of civil unrest coming if Mueller is fired AND the 'Christmas present for America' tax bill also passes, as it seems likely that it will. These jerks need to feel some real pain.
bearister
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Nice jovial photo op for Donnie, Jr. Based on that pesky little problem he has under 18 U.S. Code 2381, my best guess is that his facial expression is fueled by a snootful of Cymbalta and Xanax. I think his time would be better spent double checking the contents of his Go Bag, but then again, maybe Count Dracula will autograph the photo and he can hang it on the wall in his cell at Leavenworth.

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bearister
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https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/30/us/politics/how-fbi-russia-investigation-began-george-papadopoulos.html?referer=
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bearister
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https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/opinion/republicans-investigation-fusion-gps.html?referer=
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BearNIt
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bearister said:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/opinion/republicans-investigation-fusion-gps.html?referer=
Senator Grassley is not interested in the "Truth". Like many members of his party, he is interested in protecting a man who has broken the law and as a result is in bed with the Russians. If Mueller has the information in this article and has issued subpoenas to Deutsche Bank, then international money laundering may be an issue. Are these Republicans going to do anything about Kremlin efforts to shape U.S. elections and U.S. domestic and foreign policies? Are these Republicans willing to go down with this man because they sought to shield him against an investigation? Will these Republicans prevent the destruction of the key institutions of this government and a free press? Grassley said he would release the transcript of the testimony of Fusion and has yet to do so. What will it take before they come to their senses?
bearister
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BearNIt said:

bearister said:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/opinion/republicans-investigation-fusion-gps.html?referer=
Senator Grassley is not interested in the "Truth". Like many members of his party, he is interested in protecting a man who has broken the law and as a result is in bed with the Russians. If Mueller has the information in this article and has issued subpoenas to Deutsche Bank, then international money laundering may be an issue. Are these Republicans going to do anything about Kremlin efforts to shape U.S. elections and U.S. domestic and foreign policies? Are these Republicans willing to go down with this man because they sought to shield him against an investigation? Will these Republicans prevent the destruction of the key institutions of this government and a free press? Grassley said he would release the transcript of the testimony of Fusion and has yet to do so. What will it take before they come to their senses?


PARTY BEFORE COUNTRY
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BearNIt
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bearister said:

BearNIt said:

bearister said:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/opinion/republicans-investigation-fusion-gps.html?referer=
Senator Grassley is not interested in the "Truth". Like many members of his party, he is interested in protecting a man who has broken the law and as a result is in bed with the Russians. If Mueller has the information in this article and has issued subpoenas to Deutsche Bank, then international money laundering may be an issue. Are these Republicans going to do anything about Kremlin efforts to shape U.S. elections and U.S. domestic and foreign policies? Are these Republicans willing to go down with this man because they sought to shield him against an investigation? Will these Republicans prevent the destruction of the key institutions of this government and a free press? Grassley said he would release the transcript of the testimony of Fusion and has yet to do so. What will it take before they come to their senses?


PARTY BEFORE COUNTRY
With the Bannon news it could turn into the signal that stops this insanity.
bearister
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Money laundering charges can be brought under state laws and there is no POTUS pardon power. Go Bags are being packed and destinations off grid being readied. Veneered teeth are chattering and banshee wailing flowing.

This is the end, beautiful friend
This is the end, my only friend, the end
Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes, again..
-Jim Morrison
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