OT: Trump/Russians/Robert Mueller

Strykur
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ducky23;842854930 said:

Do traditional conservatives really believe that the Republican Party is going to have long term health after Trump?


Yes, because the GOP is still in better shape than the Democratic Party.
NYCGOBEARS
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Strykur;842854935 said:

Yes, because the GOP is still in better shape than the Democratic Party.

The Romans thought everything was cool too... until it wasn't.
Unit2Sucks
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I think voting for Trump was largely just a cry for help for the white working class. This has nothing to do with conservative values or policies. This has everything to do with a bunch of people who want help and know that no one is going to give it to them. At least Trump paid lip service and to some extent their cry for help was successful because people are talking about how to help these people (white working class) that never were previously.

Here's an interesting NYT editorial from today that discusses the Trump voters' fears. This isn't about individualistic scrappy Americans looking for an opportunity to better themselves, it's about people who fear the impact of economic progress and want the government to protect them. They don't care about lowering regulations to improve the economy, they are hoping that reducing regulations will somehow create an opportunity to ply their factory trade again. Reducing the size of the government is completely orthogonal to the concerns they have.

I don't think this is about a wholesale shift of these people from democrat to republican, I think it's people who felt like they had one last gasp chance to restore things to the way they were when you could be an unskilled laborer from a small town who coasted through adolescence, graduated from HS and showed up at the factory (or mine) that their daddy worked at and could create a middle-class lifestyle like the one they had growing up.
NYCGOBEARS
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The Dems see to shift away from identity politics and come up with a coherent message.
BearDevil
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Unit2Sucks;842854988 said:

I think voting for Trump was largely just a cry for help for the white working class. This has nothing to do with conservative values or policies. This has everything to do with a bunch of people who want help and know that no one is going to give it to them. At least Trump paid lip service and to some extent their cry for help was successful because people are talking about how to help these people (white working class) that never were previously.

Here's an interesting NYT editorial from today that discusses the Trump voters' fears. This isn't about individualistic scrappy Americans looking for an opportunity to better themselves, it's about people who fear the impact of economic progress and want the government to protect them. They don't care about lowering regulations to improve the economy, they are hoping that reducing regulations will somehow create an opportunity to ply their factory trade again. Reducing the size of the government is completely orthogonal to the concerns they have.

I don't think this is about a wholesale shift of these people from democrat to republican, I think it's people who felt like they had one last gasp chance to restore things to the way they were when you could be an unskilled laborer from a small town who coasted through adolescence, graduated from HS and showed up at the factory (or mine) that their daddy worked at and could create a middle-class lifestyle like the one they had growing up.


Last week's Economist had a series of short articles on Trump supporters. Covered everything from coal, manufacturing, trade, evangelicals, racial identity, and the contrast between Arlington, VA and Huntington, WV.

One connection I hadn't made previously was the anti-California sentiment championed by former Californians Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller. They ardently want to crush multiculturalism.
Unit2Sucks
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NYCGOBEARS;842854989 said:

The Dems see to shift away from identity politics and come up with a coherent message.


Ironically had the dems been more invested in identity politics, Clinton may be in the oval office right now. The african american share of voters declined meaningfully in 2016 and that in and of itself could have been enough to swing the election.

BearDevil;842854992 said:

Last week's Economist had a series of short articles on Trump supporters. Covered everything from coal, manufacturing, trade, evangelicals, racial identity, and the contrast between Arlington, VA and Huntington, WV.

One connection I hadn't made previously was the anti-California sentiment championed by former Californians Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller. They ardently want to crush multiculturalism.


I'll have to check that out, thanks.
BearNIt
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Strykur;842854935 said:

Yes, because the GOP is still in better shape than the Democratic Party.


Trump is unhinged. He lacks any awareness of the effect that his actions have on the Republican party or brand, and this country. The Congress seems to looking for Mueller to bring this trainwreck of a presidency to an end before he does irreversible damage to this country. He will eventually take some action that demands the grown ups step in and take corrective action. Anger at the establishment doesn't mean abdication of responsibility or refusal to acknowledge reality. He and his ilk are a danger to this democracy.
GB54
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Trump voters=
White without a college degree, Trump, 67%-28%
Whites with a college degree, Trump,49%-45%
Old people,Trump, 53%-45%
sycasey
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Unit2Sucks;842855005 said:

Ironically had the dems been more invested in identity politics, Clinton may be in the oval office right now. The african american share of voters declined meaningfully in 2016 and that in and of itself could have been enough to swing the election.


How much of that is just not having Obama on the ballot, though?
sycasey
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BearNIt;842855007 said:

Trump is unhinged. He lacks any awareness of the effect that his actions have on the Republican party or brand, and this country. The Congress seems to looking for Mueller to bring this trainwreck of a presidency to an end before he does irreversible damage to this country.


What are the odds that Trump eventually fires Mueller?
NYCGOBEARS
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sycasey;842855043 said:

What are the odds that Trump eventually fires Mueller?

2:1
ducky23
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sycasey;842855043 said:

What are the odds that Trump eventually fires Mueller?


Why wouldn't he fire mueller?

I keep hearing GOP senators saying how it'd be a political catastrophe. Uh-huh. I've heard that before

Do you think trumps base would care? And as long as the base doesn't care, the GOP congress won't care either.

I keep thinking there's a line that trump can't cross. But I'm starting to realize trump was right. He could shoot someone and all the GOP congress is going to do is scold him and then go about their business.

It's not really trump I hate. It's these republicans who say they love America but clearly can't stand Americans (sorry I stole that from sorkin).
BearNIt
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ducky23;842855059 said:

Why wouldn't he fire mueller?

I keep hearing GOP senators saying how it'd be a political catastrophe. Uh-huh. I've heard that before

Do you think trumps base would care? And as long as the base doesn't care, the GOP congress won't care either.

I keep thinking there's a line that trump can't cross. But I'm starting to realize trump was right. He could shoot someone and all the GOP congress is going to do is scold him and then go about their business.

It's not really trump I hate. It's these republicans who say they love America but clearly can't stand Americans (sorry I stole that from sorkin).


Not only is Trump looking to limit Mueller's investigations, but he is now exploring his ability to grant pardons. How much longer will the party back this clown?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-lawyers-seek-to-undercut-muellers-russia-investigation/2017/07/20/232ebf2c-6d71-11e7-b9e

TRAINWRECK! I CAN'T AVERT MY EYES!
bearister
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-20/trump-move-to-fire-mueller-likely-would-trigger-purge-at-justice
BearNIt
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The spokesman forPresident's legal team has resigned. This is telling.

With Trumpito Jr. and Paul Manafort scheduled to testify in congressional committee open session, and the request of financial docs from multiple sources, the President has got to do something.

There is a SHITSTORM COMING!
ducky23
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Now trump lawyers are looking into mueller's "conflicts of interest" lol.

Gee. I wonder what's going to happen next.

Trumps playbook is so transparent. He's like 2009 tedford.
Unit2Sucks
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Come on, he's more unpredictable than Tedford. At least Tedford took actions that seemed likely to lead to a good outcome in a vacuum. Trump is punting on first down and making sure the refs know about all of his penalties. All he has to do is shut up and channel Dubya but he's so functionally self-destructive that he can't.

If there's a Cal reference, he's Wrong Way Riegels but it's all the time instead of just one play.
bearister
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Gee, what message do you derive from this:

"Trump has asked his advisers about his power to pardon aides, family members and even himself in connection with the probe, according to one of those people. A second person said Trump’s lawyers have been discussing the president’s pardoning powers among themselves." Washington Post

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-lawyers-seek-to-undercut-muellers-russia-investigation/2017/07/20/232ebf2c-6d71-11e7-b9e2-2056e768a7e5_story.html
GB54
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Mueller' s going to be doing some serious time
BearNIt
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Who or whom will be offered up as the sacrificial lamb(s) as Trump attempts to save himself and his family?

Who will be the first to cut a deal with Mueller to stay out of prison?
Unit2Sucks
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Trump is going to preemptively pardon everyone (I called this earlier). No one is doing jail time unless they can be convicted of crimes under state law.
oski003
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NYCGOBEARS;842854874 said:

I didn't either. Don't put words in my mouth. Many republicans are as mortified as I am.

The current leadership and machinery of the right certainly are, as are many others. Most others are simply scared lemmings who are terrified of change. The GOP has made a Faustian bargain and shall find paying up to be a b!tch.


http://gomerblog.com/2017/07/first-paycheck-republican/
sycasey
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bearister;842855092 said:

Gee, what message do you derive from this:

"Trump has asked his advisers about his power to pardon aides, family members and even himself in connection with the probe, according to one of those people. A second person said Trump’s lawyers have been discussing the president’s pardoning powers among themselves." Washington Post

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-lawyers-seek-to-undercut-muellers-russia-investigation/2017/07/20/232ebf2c-6d71-11e7-b9e2-2056e768a7e5_story.html



I'm sure there's a perfectly innocent explanation for all of this.
sp4149
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it seems that the Grump has been flaunting the RICO statute for a long time with his dealings with Russian money.
RICO allows confiscation of assets, separate from conviction on criminal charges.
If you are criminally pardoned on a RICO indictment, would confiscation of assets still be possible? After all a pardon is admission of guilt, justifying the confiscation.

Trump pardons his family and the family assets go to the government and the clan moves into a Moscow apartment.

Unit2Sucks;842855101 said:

Trump is going to preemptively pardon everyone (I called this earlier). No one is doing jail time unless they can be convicted of crimes under state law.
dajo9
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oski003;842854857 said:

wow, tell us how you really feel. How about this... A corporation owns 1,000 stores that each profit $30,000. That's 30,000,000 in profit that the owners make and the people running it are paid well, etc... A business owner owns and runs three stores that make $30,000 each. Liberals make laws that severely impact both groups so that their profit gets cut in half with increases taxes, fees, minimum wage increases, health care costs, and legislation that increases vulnerability to lawsuits (in defense of the common worker), etc... Store owner works 80 hours a week making $45,000 grand a year in profit. Liberal in ivory tower thinks, "Well, a smarter store owner would profit more." Liberals only see big evil corporations. On top on that, there is too much waste in government. See Bureaucratic costs at U.C. edited to add that Republicans do give their money to worthy causes. They just don't like to give a large portion of it to the government.


I'm confused in this strawman scenario. Are the people running the business well paid or are the owners affected by minimum wage increases? Can't be both.
oski003
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The latter
BearNIt
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Spicey is out and Scarmucci is in. Sad to see Spicey go, SNL just won't be the same. On the other hand Spicey has got to be relieved as he doesn't have to try to sell a turd to the American people anymore. Next to go will be Reince Priebus.
dajo9
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oski003;842855158 said:

The latter


Ok, so your strawman argument is for a corporation with $30 million in profits and whose workers make minimum wage. That is the Republican dream scenario. Can't argue with you there.
dajo9
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BearNIt;842855168 said:

Spicey is out and Scarmucci is in. Sad to see Spicey go, SNL just won't be the same. On the other hand Spicey has got to be relieved as he doesn't have to try to sell a turd to the American people anymore. Next to go will be Reince Priebus.


If Spicey is smart, and I'm not sure that he is, he'll be the first one out with a tell-all book and will make millions
blungld
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BearNIt;842855168 said:

Spicey is out and Scarmucci is in. Sad to see Spicey go, SNL just won't be the same. On the other hand, Spicey has got to be relieved as he doesn't have to try to sell a turd to the American people anymore. Next to go will be Reince Priebus.


It's clearly a wonderful group of competent people who are working selflessly day and night to make sure that America is great and that the common man and his enduring rights are well-protected and that we all can come together and feel proud of our country and be a beacon of democracy around the world, right?

How are his supporters so friggin blind to how crappy all this is? Are their beliefs so rigid and intolerant that as long as something is called something (like being called Republican, or Conservative, or Christian) then it must be...and it must be good no matter what the actual actions or consequences are? And they don't stop to question their sources of opinion and information no matter how it seems to contrast with observable actions and––let's be honest––basic common sense. And if anything is called Liberal then it must be bad and fought against no matter who it helps or what good it does. I just don't understand this way of being and living in a society. When people become this tribal there is no recourse.

There is absolutely no way any rational person doesn't step back and look at this whole picture and say "this is corruption" and this is not what I want my country to look like. Just try and forget which party wins and losses, and just be a decent person and condemn this before it's too late and this country is either in a World War or has lost any resemblance to the principles of the Constitution that we all treasure, Liberal and Conservative.
NYCGOBEARS
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blungld;842855189 said:

It's clearly a wonderful group of competent people who are working selflessly day and night to make sure that America is great and that the common man and his enduring rights are well-protected and that we all can come together and feel proud of our country and be a beacon of democracy around the world, right?

How are his supporters so friggin blind to how crappy all this is? Are their beliefs so rigid and intolerant that as long as something is called something (like being called Republican, or Conservative, or Christian) then it must be...and it must be good no matter what the actual actions or consequences are? And they don't stop to question their sources of opinion and information no matter how it seems to contrast with observable actions andlet's be honestbasic common sense. And if anything is called Liberal then it must be bad and fought against no matter who it helps or what good it does. I just don't understand this way of being and living in a society. When people become this tribal there is no recourse.

There is absolutely no way any rational person doesn't step back and look at this whole picture and say "this is corruption" and this is not what I want my country to look like. Just try and forget which party wins and losses, and just be a decent person and condemn this before it's too late and this country is either in a World War or has lost any resemblance to the principles of the Constitution that we all treasure, Liberal and Conservative.


Watch Fox & Friends and then realize that for many, that is their sole news source along with a smattering of Hannity and Limbaugh. It is warped beyond belief.
oski003
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dajo9;842855186 said:

Ok, so your strawman argument is for a corporation with $30 million in profits and whose workers make minimum wage. That is the Republican dream scenario. Can't argue with you there.


No, you don't get it. I was pretty clear that I'm talking about the affect on the smaller business.
sycasey
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NYCGOBEARS;842855192 said:

Watch Fox & Friends and then realize that for many, that is their sole news source along with a smattering of Hannity and Limbaugh. It is warped beyond belief.


Yup, the conservative media bubble has become very strong. You can see some of the folks on this board who have been very clearly influenced by it.

I've always thought that eventually the lies and misinformation would run up against reality, but it's proven more durable than I expected.
blungld
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NYCGOBEARS;842854854 said:

It's simple - A warped sense of morality that will justify any means necessary to remain in control longer and horde resources and power. White people are scared. A minority majority is coming quickly.


How do you unwarp someone's "morality" when it has taken over as part of their identity and ego?

For the majority, they have been raised in homes or surrounded by people & sources that proclaim Republicans as a party of Christian values. These values seem to get very little honest dissection--they fall much more into the realm of dogma, propaganda, tradition, and obedience. To question these positions on abortion, gay marriage, etc is often to reject your community/parents and so these positions go unquestioned and are used as political leverage (and not accidentally so). This isn't real theology or real morality, this moves into theocracy and thought control territory. Wealthy people who do not give a rat's ass about Christian values couldn't be happier to sit back and be able to manipulate economic policyhave us all buy into an every man for himself ideology when they own every advantageas red staters empower them out of blind devotion and a non-existent fight against the "immorality" of the left. Somehow helping one another, operating from a position of empathy and caring, and being proud of our interconnectedness has become demonized when it is our greatest attribute as a species, most resembles the acts of love and Christianity, and is the one thing known to make almost every human being happy (loving others and doing good for them).

Just do a simple exercise and write out Christ's actual teachings (not that we are supposed to be politically beholden to one religion's belief system) and then write out Republican positions and Democrat position in the simplest plainest language. Look at these side by side. You have to be completely dishonest or brainwashed to come to the conclusion that the Republicans reflect Christian values. So then the question becomes, when do you stop acting like they do and start breaking from the programmed conversations to speak the truth?
NYCGOBEARS
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sycasey;842855196 said:

Yup, the conservative media bubble has become very strong. You can see some of the folks on this board who have been very clearly influenced by it.

I've always thought that eventually the lies and misinformation would run up against reality, but it's proven more durable than I expected.


Perception is reality.
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