OT: Trump/Russians/Robert Mueller

going4roses
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Well well
sycasey
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Strykur;842862781 said:

I don't care, he's done his part (although he could take a break from tweeting) and thank God his election happened so that all the idiot politicos in this country got a wake up call that the people have had enough of the nonsense coming from DC and that the populist awakening is coming for them. If Trump has to go, Pence can step in and keep it all going.


I also have to question this argument. What makes you think Pence is interested in a populist awakening? Seems to me that he's about as establishment as they come.
bearister
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Me thinks The Man from Glad got a wittle taint on those Christian Fundamentalist paws of his. They may have to move further down the food chain after trump does his perp walk.
Unit2Sucks
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So the blueprint for removing someone from the White House is pretty clear at this point. Just need to give them credit for Trump's victory and write enough articles about them. I nominate Miller as the next person to anoint since he seems to be the remaining ideologue and source of Trump's worst policies, positions and statements.
dajo9
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Strykur;842862781 said:

Donald Trump has been an awesome, incredible, resounding, ROARING success as our President, for 2 reasons:

1. Gorsuch is on the Supreme Court.
2. Hillary Clinton is gone, [U]forever[/U].

Bonuses: Democratic Party implosion, booming economy, DPRK backing off, bathing everyday in leftists tears coming from snowflakes on this forum like blungld, NYCGOBEARS, et al.

Donald can go play golf until 2020, I don't care, he's done his part (although he could take a break from tweeting) and thank God his election happened so that all the idiot politicos in this country got a wake up call that the people have had enough of the nonsense coming from DC and that the populist awakening is coming for them. If Trump has to go, Pence can step in and keep it all going. It's a fantastic time in America, and looking forward to our country's future.


This post seems like a good timeto remind everyone that Hillary got 3 million more votes than Trump
bearister
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Unit2Sucks;842863134 said:

So the blueprint for removing someone from the White House is pretty clear at this point. Just need to give them credit for Trump's victory and write enough articles about them. I nominate Miller as the next person to anoint since he seems to be the remaining ideologue and source of Trump's worst policies, positions and statements.


Once Miller is fired, he can pursue his missed calling in life---being a full time Alt Right protest leader. His forehead area will present a perfect canvas for decoration by those utilizing Black Bloc demonstration tactics.
blungld
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Strykur;842862939 said:

DBAP - look it up.


You're wonderfully articulated DBAP response might more aptly apply to your own complete evasion of the questions I asked. DBAP and answer them clearly one by one. Go on record. So far not one Trump supporter has answered. I guess you'd rather be free to just keep rolling back your values to be able to justify whatever happens. Moral relativism built on stubbornness and anything you FEEL (not rationally mind you) are anti-Liberal. You have demonstrated no actual position other than "yeah but" and name calling.
Strykur
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blungld;842863158 said:

You're wonderfully articulated DBAP response might more aptly apply to your own complete evasion of the questions I asked.


Post again and be specific please, this thread is a mess.
Yogi Bear
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blungld;842862768 said:

All the outspoken Trump supporters have been very aggressive and sure of themselves in their attacks on Clinton (why in the world is this their priority?) or their defense of Trump, but when I ask a direct question on these boards I get no answer. Let me try again:

1) Do you still hold that there is "nothing" to the investigation of Trump, that it is an unjustified witch hunt? This in no way justifies an investigation? http://billmoyers.com/story/trump-russia-timeline/

2) Do you still believe that he is doing a good job and that he is good man making the country great again?

3) That he has drained the swamp rather than swamped it with ugly incompetence and moneyed interests?

4) If he is found guilty of collusion, money laundering, espionage, tax evasion, perjury, and/or other crimes associated with a cover up or election fraud, will you call it a Liberal plot or will go on record now saying that if he is found guilty of these things then you were wrong and he is the dishonest, amoral un-American narcissist that we have been warning you about since the campaign? Will you ever look at how you make decisions, the bias you hold, and question your sources of information? Put it down here, is there anything wrong or illegal he can do...or is he always right and are your beliefs implacable?


Months ago I said I thought he would resign or be impeached within the year, and you called me crazy and the result of the Liberal bubble, who lives in the bubble now? Who wants to bet money now?


Strykur;842863174 said:

Post again and be specific please, this thread is a mess.


:buttkick:
Strykur
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I have to do manual quotes here, let's see:

Quote:

1) Do you still hold that there is "nothing" to the investigation of Trump, that it is an unjustified witch hunt? This in no way justifies an investigation? http://billmoyers.com/story/trump-russia-timeline/


The "Russia" "investigation" is the most absurd and bizarre media hoax of the 21st century, there is nothing to substantiate impeachment, there never will be, and Trump will remain in office until 2024. The worst case scenario of a Pence takeover would actually be exciting, for me anyway.

Quote:

2) Do you still believe that he is doing a good job and that he is good man making the country great again?


I mentioned earlier why I am fine with him, but his victory was an amazing event that left the media and political elite in this country shattered, which to me is a fantastic double-whammy. Plus the Democratic Party has imploded. And like I also said, the setup he has in place heavily favors the right, which is great.

Quote:

3) That he has drained the swamp rather than swamped it with ugly incompetence and moneyed interests?


I never really believed that Trump would "drain the swamp" per se, he has effectively kicked lobbyists out of the White House. The flipside is, DC is basically frozen. I did find the Bannon explanation that he wanted to dismantle the "administrative state" excellent, because I want the bureaucratic and welfare state in this country smashed. Paralyzing it is a good start.

Quote:

4) If he is found guilty of collusion, money laundering, espionage, tax evasion, perjury, and/or other crimes associated with a cover up or election fraud, will you call it a Liberal plot or will go on record now saying that if he is found guilty of these things then you were wrong and he is the dishonest, amoral un-American narcissist that we have been warning you about since the campaign? Will you ever look at how you make decisions, the bias you hold, and question your sources of information? Put it down here, is there anything wrong or illegal he can do...or is he always right and are your beliefs implacable?

Months ago I said I thought he would resign or be impeached within the year, and you called me crazy and the result of the Liberal bubble, who lives in the bubble now? Who wants to bet money now?


None of this is happening. If it actually does, (and Pence is POTUS!), then I might reflect on it a bit, but like I said, the right have taken over, so I am happy.

By the way, being an amoral narcissist is not illegal. In fact, that makes Trump the perfect model for a politician - they are all fucking scum to begin with, so having Trump as POTUS is not that troubling to me.
bearister
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"The "Russia" "investigation" is the most absurd and bizarre media hoax of the 21st century, there is nothing to substantiate impeachment.."
Response:

http://billmoyers.com/story/trump-russia-timeline/


"Trump will remain in office until 2024. "

I would be willing to bet a decent sum of money that will not be the case. Chances are he will not finish out his first term or if he does, not be reelected. But even if he were the most beloved POTUS of all time, the fact that he is old, 60+ pounds over weight, eats poorly, does not sleep enough, does not exercise, appears to have a substance abuse problem based on physical appearance and the content of his early morning hour tweets(despite his denials, which are meaningless), and his progressively deteriorating mental state, the odds greatly favor him either being deceased or physically and/or mentally incapacitated within the next 4 years, or in any event well before 2024.
Unit2Sucks
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Strykur;842863182 said:


The "Russia" "investigation" is the most absurd and bizarre media hoax of the 21st century, there is nothing to substantiate impeachment, there never will be, and Trump will remain in office until 2024.


I just want to point out that Clinton was impeached for an event that occurred more than 4 years after Ken Starr began his investigation. To say that there will never be grounds to substantiate an impeachment is Trump-level bluster and complete disregard of reality. You really thing Trump can keep his nose clean for 4 more years (of course assuming there is nothing to impeach on already which none of us can know not having access to the evidence being gathered)?
bearister
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https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/08/steve-bannon-readies-his-revenge



https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/20/us/politics/steve-bannon-fired-trump-departure.html?referer=
bearister
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Pat Buchanan, Trump's biggest supporter:

"Like Presidents Obama and Bush, he does not intend to preside over a U.S. defeat in its longest war. Nor do his generals. Yet how can we defeat the Taliban with 13,000 troops when we failed to do so with the 100,000 Obama sent?"

Ho Chi Minh:

"You can kill ten of our men for every one we kill of yours. But even at those odds, you will lose and we will win."
dajo9
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Afghanistan was lost the moment GWB turned his focus on Iraq and in doing so, turned the world against our GWOT efforts. Everything since then is just delaying the inevitable pullout and defeat of our local Afghani allies. It will eventually happen under a Democratic President and the GOP will accuse him/her of losing Afghanistan.
bearister
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Afghanistan was never lost because it never could have been won and it has always been so:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen
-Rudyard Kipling

Let trump send Ivanka and Don, Jr. to fight (He probably has already enlisted Eric and Tiff).
dajo9
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bearister;842863512 said:

Afghanistan was never lost because it never could have been won and it has always been so:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen
-Rudyard Kipling

Let trump send Ivanka and Don, Jr. to fight (He probably has already enlisted Eric and Tiff).


I disagree. After 9/11 we rolled up the Taliban pretty quickly and if we had been able to stay focused and catch bin Laden at Tora Bora, we could have done some brief nation building (some quick highways and schools) and left an ally in power, while we still had some moral authority in the eyes of the world, and declared victory and been out by 2004. That was our only chance at success. Of course, that would have precluded the invasion of Iraq which is what the GWB team really wanted all along so that didn't happen.
bearister
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https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/opinion/trump-afghanistan-iraq-isis.html?referer=
calbear93
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dajo9;842863517 said:

I disagree. After 9/11 we rolled up the Taliban pretty quickly and if we had been able to stay focused and catch bin Laden at Tora Bora, we could have done some brief nation building (some quick highways and schools) and left an ally in power, while we still had some moral authority in the eyes of the world, and declared victory and been out by 2004. That was our only chance at success. Of course, that would have precluded the invasion of Iraq which is what the GWB team really wanted all along so that didn't happen.


I couldn't disagree more. We need to stop with the nation building as if there is no cultural difference that would bar our vision of good governance in certain countries or that democracy would work so well in other countries (that was a great experiment in Middle East, wasn't it - the Arab Spring was such a ringing success, with Syria, Libya, and even Egypt before the military coup being what we envisioned - that was one of the worst screw ups during the Obama administration, with Hillary leading the charge in support of Arab Spring). There was no path to success in Iraq, Syria, Libya or Afghanistan. What, we didn't learn anything from Soviet Union's foray into Afghanistan and our meddling there that enabled, trained and equipped bin Laden? Yes, we needed to bomb the heck out of Taliban as deterrence after 9/11 and their sheltering of Bin Laden - similar to what the first Bush did with Iraq - and then get out. The problem with GWB's Iraq war was that he thought there was something to finish what his father started (the reason for the Desert Storm was fully accomplished) and thought that we had some magic fairy dust that would turn Middle East into America with some bombs and money. We need to do surgical strikes and secret operations when necessary for deterrence and national security and use diplomacy to exert pressure for human rights without using hammer to constantly enforce our way of life in countries that don't want it.
dajo9
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calbear93;842863538 said:

I couldn't disagree more. We need to stop with the nation building as if there is no cultural difference that would bar our vision of good governance in certain countries or that democracy would work so well in other countries (that was a great experiment in Middle East, wasn't it - the Arab Spring was such a ringing success, with Syria, Libya, and even Egypt before the military coup being what we envisioned - that was one of the worst screw ups during the Obama administration, with Hillary leading the charge in support of Arab Spring). There was no path to success in Iraq, Syria, Libya or Afghanistan. What, we didn't learn anything from Soviet Union's foray into Afghanistan and our meddling there that enabled, trained and equipped bin Laden? Yes, we needed to bomb the heck out of Taliban as deterrence after 9/11 and their sheltering of Bin Laden - similar to what the first Bush did with Iraq - and then get out. The problem with GWB's Iraq war was that he thought there was something to finish what his father started (the reason for the Desert Storm was fully accomplished) and thought that we had some magic fairy dust that would turn Middle East into America with some bombs and money. We need to do surgical strikes and secret operations when necessary for deterrence and national security and use diplomacy to exert pressure for human rights without using hammer to constantly enforce our way of life in countries that don't want it.


I really think you are overstating my advocacy of nation building.

After 9/11 it was absolutely necessary to go into Afghanistan and take down the Taliban and al Qaeda. Nobody believed this could sufficiently be done solely with airpower. So the question is, what do you do in Afghanistan when you are already there and have already blown up the current government. I'm saying you build some roads, schools, hospitals, try to install an ally and get out. That was the only chance at a good ending there, and even then I fully admit there's no guarantee of a good ending. This is completely different from going into countries with the intent of nation building (the biggest examples being Bush Sr in Panama and Somalia and Bush Jr in Iraq).

The best example of what I am talking about is the Marshall Plan after World War II. When you've blown up a country it's a nice gesture to kick off the rebuilding effort.

In regards to Syria, Libya, and Egypt I think you are off base but I see no point in getting into it further right now.
bearister
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The Blacks for Trump dude:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/23/the-strange-story-of-that-blacks-for-trump-guy-standing-behind-potus-at-his-phoenix-rally/?utm_term=.9984c2c3e272
jyamada
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Strykur;842863182 said:

The "Russia" "investigation" is the most absurd and bizarre media hoax of the 21st century, there is nothing to substantiate impeachment, there never will be, and Trump will remain in office until 2024. The worst case scenario of a Pence takeover would actually be exciting, for me anyway.



Looks like Russia is moving from the absurd and bizarre to extremely toxic to Trump. Interesting stuff on the Rachel Maddow show this week:

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show
Cal88
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Still listening to Maddow?

Cal88
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bearister;842863483 said:

Pat Buchanan, Trump's biggest supporter:

"Like Presidents Obama and Bush, he does not intend to preside over a U.S. defeat in its longest war. Nor do his generals. Yet how can we defeat the Taliban with 13,000 troops when we failed to do so with the 100,000 Obama sent?"

Ho Chi Minh:

"You can kill ten of our men for every one we kill of yours. But even at those odds, you will lose and we will win."


Good posts Bearister. Buchanan is absolutely right, Trump is not sticking with his anti-interventionist electoral line with this announced Afghanistan plan, which boils down to a continuation of a failed policy.
jyamada
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Cal88;842864790 said:

Still listening to Maddow?




Maddow is great. Don't think Russia is a witch hunt like Trump says or absurd and bizarre like 93 says! Not looking good for the Trumpster.
Cal88
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jyamada;842864823 said:

Maddow is great. Don't think Russia is a witch hunt like Trump says or absurd and bizarre like 93 says! Not looking good for the Trumpster.


I think you're building up your hopes too much here, J. This is pretty much a politically-motivated partisan fishing expedition. I've scanned through the Moyers dossier, didn't see anything egregious, if you disagree then maybe you could flesh out the entries you believe are particularly incriminating. I think you can make a good case for a genuine conflict of interest situations with Trump though, for instance with Deutsche Bank. Would his SEC commissioner have slapped Deutsche hundreds of millions in fines, as did Obama's? Maybe a Trump appointee would have been more lenient, given his boss' business relationship...

Those kinds of conflicts existed under Obama though. His staff was mostly cherrypicked by Wall Street interests, and this has greatly affected how his administration handled the $8 trillion financial bailout, to the tremendous detriment to the taxpayers, in what was probably the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind.
jyamada
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Cal88;842864867 said:

I think you're building up your hopes too much here, J. This is pretty much a politically-motivated partisan fishing expedition. I've scanned through the Moyers dossier, didn't see anything egregious, if you disagree then maybe you could flesh out the entries you believe are particularly incriminating. I think you can make a good case for a genuine conflict of interest situations with Trump though, for instance with Deutsche Bank. Would his SEC commissioner have slapped Deutsche hundreds of millions in fines, as did Obama's? Maybe a Trump appointee would have been more lenient, given his boss' business relationship...

Those kinds of conflicts existed under Obama though. His staff was mostly cherrypicked by Wall Street interests, and this has greatly affected how his administration handled the $8 trillion financial bailout, to the tremendous detriment to the taxpayers, in what was probably the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind.



Treason and traitorous behavior is pretty egregious in my book. Pretty hard to overlook now unless you're a Trump supporter. I doubt much is going to happen to Trump though....certainly not holding my breath. I'm sure conflicts of interest existed under every administration.....but nothing like we've seen in 7 months with the Trump. Nothing close.
sp4149
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Ann Coulter, a hard right commentator is so frustrated with Trump's reluctance to fulfill his campaign promises, that when she now calls him (her former saviour), The Emperor God; It's a term of derision.

"Ann Coulter turns on Trump: She blasts the President for his 'tiny ego' and urges him to go 'pedal-to-the-metal on deportations, the Wall and that tax hike on multi-millionaires'
Right-wing firebrand Ann Coulter lashed out at President Trump
Coulter mocked Trump by calling him an 'Emperor God,' saying his 'tiny ego' is getting in the way of governing
The comments came after Steve Bannon was ousted from the White House
Coulter also attacked aides Kellyanne Conway and Stephen Miller"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4807006/Ann-Coulter-blasts-Trump-Bannon-firing.html

While I have been calling our president, The Grump, because of his dour and mean on-screen persona; I have also been calling his
presidential demeanor, imperial. I think Ann Coulter is right on this, he is behaving in the manner of an Emperor God.

A recent poll found that over 50% of Republicans would support the Emperor God if he cancelled the Presidential Election in 2020.
Awesome display of blind faith in the electorate.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/10/in-a-new-poll-half-of-republicans-say-they-would-support-postponing-the-2020-election-if-trump-proposed-it/?utm_term=.7d6621b683a5

Cal88;842864791 said:

Good posts Bearister. Buchanan is absolutely right, Trump is not sticking with his anti-interventionist electoral line with this announced Afghanistan plan, which boils down to a continuation of a failed policy.
bearister
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http://billmoyers.com/story/trump-russia-timeline/
BearDevil
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sp4149;842864949 said:

Ann Coulter, a hard right commentator is so frustrated with Trump's reluctance to fulfill his campaign promises, that when she now calls him (her former saviour), The Emperor God; It's a term of derision.

"Ann Coulter turns on Trump: She blasts the President for his 'tiny ego' and urges him to go 'pedal-to-the-metal on deportations, the Wall and that tax hike on multi-millionaires'
Right-wing firebrand Ann Coulter lashed out at President Trump
Coulter mocked Trump by calling him an 'Emperor God,' saying his 'tiny ego' is getting in the way of governing
The comments came after Steve Bannon was ousted from the White House
Coulter also attacked aides Kellyanne Conway and Stephen Miller"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4807006/Ann-Coulter-blasts-Trump-Bannon-firing.html

While I have been calling our president, The Grump, because of his dour and mean on-screen persona; I have also been calling his
presidential demeanor, imperial. I think Ann Coulter is right on this, he is behaving in the manner of an Emperor God.

A recent poll found that over 50% of Republicans would support the Emperor God if he cancelled the Presidential Election in 2020.
Awesome display of blind faith in the electorate.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/10/in-a-new-poll-half-of-republicans-say-they-would-support-postponing-the-2020-election-if-trump-proposed-it/?utm_term=.7d6621b683a5


GOP has a strange ideological mix right now.

Pence/McConnell/Ryan/Conway is one camp. Cruz/Sessions/Miller is another. Bannon populists is the third. Trump seems most comfortable with the third group, while the first two groups could form a more cohesive governing/legislative coalition.

McCain, Flake, Heller, Murkowski, Collins, Graham, Sasse, Portman, Kasich, Haley seem the most sane/reasonable, but they don't have any critical mass and are hated by the base.

Curious to see how many are willing to sink with Trump since he doesn't believe in anything other than Trump.
GB54
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Trump is an establishment Republican. He'll continue the Bannon howling at the moon with the wall, Sheriff Joe, etc but this is just red meat to the base. Goldman Sachs and the Generals are still calling policy.
BearDevil
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One theory is that Trump pardoned Sherrff Joe to signal Flynn or Manafort that he'll pardon them too if Mueller squeezes them. Tend to believe it's more about red meat to the base since Mexico won't pay for the wall.

Been amazed at how much latitude the GOP has given Trump so far, but Russia pardons may too far even for them.
Unit2Sucks
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I don't understand the point of sending a message to Mueller. It wouldn't cause him to stand down. If Trump wanted to send that message he would pardon his son right now. This was just a kickback to one of his early supporters and someone who Trump thinks is far more popular than he actually is. Not unlike Trump views himself actually.
sycasey
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BearDevil;842865025 said:

Been amazed at how much latitude the GOP has given Trump so far.


I'm not. The GOP is a far-right party now.
GB54
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Joe is the Wall- the symbolic Wall, standing at the gates, saving our nation from the alien hordes. He is pardoned to perpetuate the Wall as a metaphorical and eternal symbol of resistance Independent of these cowardly politicians. It also shows the base that Trump without Bannon is still Trump. Smart bit of demagoguery- you have to give Trump his due.
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