OT: Trump/Russians/Robert Mueller

B.A. Bearacus
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Bobodeluxe
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Never turn your back on a threatening animal, but do make yourself look as imposing as possible.
dajo9
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sycasey said:

Womp womp.

oski003, aren't you glad you debased yourself with all those arguments in favor of family separation?



The right never answers for previous errors. They move on to the next propaganda effort. It's been this way since I started becoming politically observant in the Bill Clinton Presidency. Policy aside, I could never be a Republican due to the repeated misinformation / propaganda efforts.

Whitewater and all the other bogus Bill Clinton accusations
Lying into the Iraq War
Heckuva job Brownie
Obamacare lies
Benghazi
Her emails
Now Trump

And I'm not talking about obscure bloggers or even Fox News - this is all actions by elected Republican representatives. It's a long running thread of immorality
oski003
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I'm okay with what I wrote. Hopefully, this all gets resolved in a manner that is both humane and consistent with enforcing the law.
bearister
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Kirstjen Nielsen =Aufseherinnen
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B.A. Bearacus
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Another Bear
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MELANIA SPEAKS...to the secret service:

Melania Trump contacted Secret Service after Peter Fonda tweets

Quote:

"WE SHOULD RIP BARRON TRUMP FROM HIS MOTHER'S ARMS AND PUT HIM IN A CAGE WITH PEDOPHILES AND SEE IF MOTHER WILL WILL STAND UP AGAINST THE GIANT ******* SHE IS MARRIED TO. 90 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE STREETS ON THE SAME WEEKEND IN THE COUNTRY. F*CK," he wrote on Twitter.
What a bunch of thin-skinned morons. Perhaps she doesn't get sarcasm, but as an immigrant and mother, she should understand the situation.
blungld
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oski003 said:

Asylum Seekers Not Breaking the Law are Not Being Separated.
If you cross the border illegally and claim asylum, you are still a lawbreaker. Regardless of your intent, crossing the border illegally automatically puts you in the criminal justice system, where you will obviously be separated from family.

These asylum seekers are choosing to break the law, are choosing to be separated from family.

Asylum seekers who respect our laws, by turning themselves in at legal points of entry, are not being separated. Over-crowding due to the abuse of this policy might eventually make this impossible, but it is up to Congress to allocate more funds.

Trump Is Correct About the Loophole
In 1997, a consent decree called the Flores Settlement made it illegal for America to hold migrant children for longer than 20 days. Meaning, in order to keep the family together after 20 days of detention, we can either reunite the family by letting them loose to live illegally in America, or we can keep the parent in detention and place the child in a foster home or with a relative who lives in America.

Trump is wisely choosing to do the latter (for a number of moral reasons I will explain later).

A case involving an illegal border crosser not seeking asylum is usually adjudicated before the 20 days are up, which means the family unit is reunited during deportation and no foster care is needed. This, obviously, is the best case scenario.

Those who cross the border illegally and then claim asylum status (an important distinction from asylum seekers who obey the law) are another story, because the asylum process almost always exceeds the 20 days, and this is the law the Trump administration wants changed.

By speeding up the asylum process, the family unit can be reunited faster, either in the deportation process (if asylum is not granted and this process is frequently abused) or in the resettlement process (if asylum is granted).

Another option is to end the 20-day limit so foster care does not become necessary. Parent and child can remain in the detention centers until the asylum process is settled.
This is both factually incorrect and ethically bankrupt. Instead of always jumping to defense of your established beliefs and political party, why don't you work this hard to argue for the greater human project of decency.
bearister
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Putin must be incensed by the growing cost of providing shadow Spetsnaz Praetorian Guard Unit protection for his invaluable asset which is necessitated by the toxic environment caused by the child detentions.
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Another Bear
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Did Michael Cohen just drop a hint about flipping on Trump

First Cohen resigns from the RNC, where he was an official. Then he drops this on the side for good measure:
Quote:

"As the son of a Polish holocaust survivor, the images and sounds of this family separation policy is heart wrenching," Cohen wrote in his letter to the RNC. "While I strongly support measures that will secure our porous borders, children should never be used as bargaining chips."

blungld
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oski003 said:

I'm okay with what I wrote. Hopefully, this all gets resolved in a manner that is both humane and consistent with enforcing the law.
I know you THINK that's okay. It's not.

What you wrote was a white-washing of evil. You don't get to pretend like you were just espousing an opinion or that this is just reasonable back and forth debate. You don't get to let yourself off the hook that easily. What you defended is indefensible--and you used lies and misinformation to do it (which should indicate to you that your position is not sincere, ethical, or rational).

Every evil act of mankind was carried out by people who believed they were right and justified. You look back at history and wonder how those people were so deceived. We have entered such a phase here in America and you are one of the deceived. I know that must seem incredibly difficult for you to believe--so are you strong enough to see it and change, or do you just dig in and stay ever loyal?

sycasey
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blungld said:

oski003 said:

I'm okay with what I wrote. Hopefully, this all gets resolved in a manner that is both humane and consistent with enforcing the law.
I know you THINK that's okay. It's not.

What you wrote was a white-washing of evil. You don't get to pretend like you were just espousing an opinion or that this is just reasonable back and forth debate. You don't get to let yourself off the hook that easily. What you defended is indefensible--and you used lies and misinformation to do it (which should indicate to you that your position is not sincere, ethical, or rational).

Every evil act of mankind was carried out by people who believed they were right and justified. You look back at history and wonder how those people were so deceived. We have entered such a phase here in America and you are one of the deceived. I know that must seem incredibly difficult for you to believe--so are you strong enough to see it and change, or do you just dig in and stay ever loyal?
I also have to say that even if you THINK the President's goals were entirely noble here, there's no way anyone could look at this clusterf*** and think it was a well-executed policy. Video footage of children in cages? Audio of wailing toddlers separated from their parents? Who the hell thought this was a good idea?

And then there's the inconsistent messaging from various corners of the administration:

Miller/Sessions: "This is a great policy and exactly what we want."
Nielsen: "There is no such policy."
Trump: "This is bad and it's the Democrats' fault!"

In a competent administration this doesn't happen. Trump is not a guy who can effectively push your conservative agenda forward. We've seen it over and over: he's wasted most of his term cleaning up messes he created.

Yes, he's putting conservative judges on the bench. That's about the only thing he's done consistently well. But the judiciary is probably the least influential branch (they can only interpret laws, not create them) and won't mean much if Trump's bumbling results in large Democratic majorities up and down the ballot, plus turning an entire generation of young voters against Republicans forever.
sycasey
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Anyway, Trump has rolled back his policy, but there's still no plan for what to do with the kids still sitting in cages. I recommend you get out in the streets, June 30.

https://act.moveon.org/event/families-belong-together/
Another Bear
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Nothing will change. The GOP can't pass anything or even agree with their own side, let alone the Dems. Same old, same old...House Freedom Caucusuckers will obstruct. If somehow they do get their shyt together, they still have to pass it with Dems.

Livid Rep. Mark Meadows yells at Speaker Paul Ryan on House floor
Quote:

The chairman of the conservative House Freedom Caucus angrily confronted House Speaker Paul Ryan over immigration legislation on the floor of the House of Representatives Wednesday.

Rep. Mark Meadows, R-N.C., approached Ryan during a vote and began an animated discussion that lasted roughly half a minute. Both men pointed fingers at each other and reporters in the gallery could hear Meadows say, "I'm done! I'm done!" Meadows then turned and walked away while Ryan resumed chatting with other members.

Sources tell Fox News that the dispute stemmed from confusion over which of two immigration bills the House is expected to consider Thursday

B.A. Bearacus
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Signs...
sonofabear51
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Agreed. This may be the beginning of the end of this 'experiment'.
bearister
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tRump Aryan Brother

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mikecohen
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dajo9 said:

sycasey said:

Womp womp.

oski003, aren't you glad you debased yourself with all those arguments in favor of family separation?



The right never answers for previous errors. They move on to the next propaganda effort. It's been this way since I started becoming politically observant in the Bill Clinton Presidency. Policy aside, I could never be a Republican due to the repeated misinformation / propaganda efforts.

Whitewater and all the other bogus Bill Clinton accusations
Lying into the Iraq War
Heckuva job Brownie
Obamacare lies
Benghazi
Her emails
Now Trump

And I'm not talking about obscure bloggers or even Fox News - this is all actions by elected Republican representatives. It's a long running thread of immorality
The answer to Republican monstrousness is not morality - given Trump's base's tolerance (nay, taste) for the constant lies, and easy cruelty.

Basically, I don't think Trump's strategy of Fooling Enough of the People Enough of the Time is sufficient, by itself, to move to real totalitarianism - especially in light of the overall population's diversity and the prevailing values of individual freedom, which, among other things has resulted in a vast reservoir of non-governmental power in capital.

But one wonders whether sufficiently scary economic collapse (which has been recently predicted by a conservative economist) might change that calculus - keeping in mind how quickly the capitalists turned to the government to save them in the last two major economic collapses.

Also, one wonders whether the absolute stuffing of guns into every interstice in this country could form something of check on such tendency. But I would think that:
(1) the idea that this could represent any kind of possibly meaningful military force in the face of the full array of modern weaponry is one of the bigger jokes that the right-wing-osphere takes to its breast as an article of faith; and
(2) since the vast majority of second amendment adherents are extreme rightists, rather than creating something in opposition to authoritarianism, those adherents would be more likely to play out the meaning of the Second Amendment's mysterious lead-in, and form themselves into "well regulated militias", and become the new brown and black shirts.

The only effective check by the population at large against evil that I am aware of was the Viet Nam War protests which, more or less, kept people in the streets essentially constantly.

But I think that the true energy for that was the draft which meant that the young people who were protesting were staring death in the face in the service of lies that finally became unavoidably obvious - especially in the face of 50,000+ American dead, and God-only-knows how many maimed and otherwise wounded.

So, when Nixon wisely eliminated the draft, he undercut the opposing energy from the streets, but, by that time, too much energy that had built up against the war, the government and Nixon himself was out of the bottle.

So, what we're left with is, perhaps, diversity. In California, Prop 187 woke up El Gigante Dormiendo. One imagines it possible that, as Trump and Stephen Miller continue to pile-up points with their Mussolini and Goebbels act, there could be a tipping point.

In my namesake's resignation message from Trump's organization today, he threw-in that, as the child of Holocaust Survivor's he couldn't stomach the child separation policy . . . and I'll leave it at that.
BearNIt
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What is Mueller going to get from the Cohen testimony on his activities with Trump? Can't be a great feeling to know that the guy who handled the **** that you wanted to keep a secret, now wants to trade info for a sentence reduction and there is electronic and physical evidence to corroborate his testimony.
Another Bear
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I no longer think the question is "IF" Cohen flips...but WHEN. My guess is things crack open in the dead of August, maybe mid-late July.

Cohen has incurred potentially millions in legal fees, just hired a friendly to the SDNY U.S. Attorney Office. He or his family is in the process of off-loading their Trump Tower properties. And he keeps sending signals to the Trump camp, like his opposition to Trumpie immigration.

I wonder if part of Cohen's plea deal is protection from the Russkie mob.
bearister
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...and the Republicans will never impeach him for what he did and they will keep Mueller's report CONFIDENTIAL for the security of the Republic.
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Another Bear
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You're correct, that's why they have to be voted out in '18. Vote them out, get a majority in Congress and then things change.
sp4149
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Another Bear said:

You're correct, that's why they have to be voted out in '18. Vote them out, get a majority in Congress and then things change.
You realize that only nine Republican Senators are up for re-election, no way the Democrats will have enough votes to convict if the House does impeach Trump. Two thirds of the Senate, 67 Senate votes required to convict. Currently only 47 Senate Democrats, Even with two independents, no way the Democrats can win enough Republican Senate seats in the fall to gain 18 votes. More likely, It's the Democrats (26) that are most vulnerable this Fall in the Senate. FIVE Senate Seats currently held by Democrats are considered a toss-up in the Fall, only two Republican Senate seats are considered a toss-up. Forty two Republican Senate seats will be up for election in 2020 and 2012 while only 23 Democrats, yes, most of the Senate Democrats are facing re-election threats in the Fall while less than 20% of Republicans. Unless Republicans grow spines, Trump will serve out his term.
bearister
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Another Bear said:

You're correct, that's why they have to be voted out in '18. Vote them out, get a majority in Congress and then things change.


If tRump leaves office on bad terms with a significant percentage of Americans, including his supporters that feel shafted and betrayed by him, the Feds might be able to make a tax evasion or money laundering case against him and that jury nullification issue I have discussed might go away. One can only hope.
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Another Bear
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So maybe we'll see the Trump Pee Party Russkie Tape after all.

Cohen's photo with Tom Arnold fuels Trump tape speculation
B.A. Bearacus
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BearDevil
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Another Bear said:

I no longer think the question is "IF" Cohen flips...but WHEN. My guess is things crack open in the dead of August, maybe mid-late July.

Cohen has incurred potentially millions in legal fees, just hired a friendly to the SDNY U.S. Attorney Office. He or his family is in the process of off-loading their Trump Tower properties. And he keeps sending signals to the Trump camp, like his opposition to Trumpie immigration.

I wonder if part of Cohen's plea deal is protection from the Russkie mob.


Have no doubt that Cohen was laundering Russian and/or Ukrainian money through cab companies in NYC and Chicago. SDNY is one hedge against a federal pardon. Can still face state charges in IL too.

Likely that Manafort was also laundering Ukrainian money too. Odd that Mueller hasn't applied the same leverage on Manafort yet.
sycasey
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Well, it finally happened. George Will has turned against the Republican Party.

Another Bear
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sycasey said:

Well, it finally happened. George Will has turned against the Republican Party.


Wow...hell apparently froze over.
Another Bear
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Now that Tom Arnold is hanging out with Michael Cohen, and his TV show, hunting for the Trump tapes...it looks like it's flip time.

https://twitter.com/TomArnold/status/1009953706748665858?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fcelebrityinsider.org%2Fmichael-cohen-and-tom-arnold-pose-for-a-photo-sparking-rumors-of-another-trump-scandal-160951%2F
bearister
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Another Bear said:

sycasey said:

Well, it finally happened. George Will has turned against the Republican Party.


Wow...hell apparently froze over.


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concordtom
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bearister said:

tRump Aryan Brother


Like gang bangers who tattoo themselves all of their faces, why not just wear a shirt that says "I'm a ****ing idiot with no sense."
mikecohen
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bearister said:

Another Bear said:

sycasey said:

Well, it finally happened. George Will has turned against the Republican Party.


Wow...hell apparently froze over.



Remember though what Michelle Wolf said: The Democrats could lose by 12 points to a guy named Jeff Pedophile Nazi Doctor.
B.A. Bearacus
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Titan of modern conservatism, Laura Ingraham, tells George Will to shut up and dribble.

Bobodeluxe
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I would ironically wear that shirt in town.
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