OT: Trump/Russians/Robert Mueller

golden sloth
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Case in point, McConnell and Ryan knew the Russians were interfering on behalf of Trump and chose to ignore it if it got a conservative elected (yet, kneeling for the national anthem is somehow unamerican):


Quote:

Sean Illing
In the book, you recall a moment in which intelligence officials went to [House] Speaker Paul Ryan and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell before the election and asked them to sign a statement condemning foreign interference in our election. You write: "They didn't care who their nominee was, how he got elected, or what effects having a foreign power influence our election would have on the nation." How did they justify that decision to you?

James Clapper
It was about the almighty agenda. There was an anti-Obama agenda that they supported above all else, and they weren't going to jeopardize that. We tried to come up with a bipartisan statement against the Russians, and the Republicans wanted no part of it.

I recall intelligence officials going to Congress at one point to brief them on what the Russians were doing, and we were warned to not allow ourselves to be used as pawns by the Obama administration. We were doing our jobs, which is bringing truth to power, but when power chooses to ignore the truth, we're in a very dangerous place.

Sean Illing
That's fairly shocking: You have the party in power ignoring, for the sake of political expedience, evidence that a hostile foreign state meddled in our election.

James Clapper
It is shocking. The whole episode was shocking. I've spent more than 50 years in the intelligence world, and I've seen a lot of bad stuff, but nothing affected me as much as our apathetic reaction to Russia's interference in our presidential election. It's very disturbing to me, and it's why I thought I had to do what I can to educate the public.

https://www.vox.com/2018/5/31/17384444/james-clapper-trump-russia-mueller-2016-election
Another Bear
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So what happened this past week with Trump/Mueller/Russia?

The biggie seems to be the 20-page memo Trump lawyers Dowd and Kudlow wrote, leaked/released to preemptively fend off a subpoena.

The NY Times published the leaked document. The Trump admin claims it was the Mueller team, but given how tight lipped they've been, this is very doubtful and suspect.

The NY Times also broke down and de-bunked the memo, The Trump Lawyers' Confidential Memo to Mueller, Explained

Basically the memo says Trump is above the law, a de facto king. Then the pundits came in and shredded the Trump legal team's assumptions. There's plenty of video on this like Lawerance Tribe on CNN and MSNC.

The second question is: WHERE'S MELANIA? She seems to have gone AWOL after her unannounced surgery and since then hasn't been seen. Did the Russkie kidnap her as collateral? Or did she pull the ripcord and bail?

sonofabear51
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giuliani has been an aahhole since 911. And now coming out with the comment that trump could shoot Comey and not be prosecuted but could be impeached. Really! Ya think they are that much above the law?! Wow! Comments please.
BearNIt
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sonofabear51 said:

giuliani has been an aahhole since 911. And now coming out with the comment that trump could shoot Comey and not be prosecuted but could be impeached. Really! Ya think they are that much above the law?! Wow! Comments please.
It's those comments by Gulliani and Trump that in the end will Trump and his associates held accountable for their crimes in this world and again in the next.
Unit2Sucks
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I actually agree that you shouldn't be able to indict a sitting president regardless of the crime. Congress' job is to impeach in the event of a serious enough crime and that decision shouldn't be left to a grand jury of ordinary citizens which could seriously impede the functioning of our government. Of course, this assumes we have a real president who actually does his job and not a moron who watches TV all day and has no functional command of his duties.

I don't think this means that a president is above the law or that he can pardon himself or refuse a subpoena or anything like that.

Grand jury indictments are too low of a bar for the sitting president so having congress run the process makes a lot more sense. Of course, when the framers created the system they may not have anticipated how tribal politics would become and the fact that congress would largely abdicate its duties in favor of self gain. Unfortunately they didn't realize we would have professional politicians who care more about special interests then the country or their constituents they are supposed to serve.
golden sloth
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The issue is what to do when congress refuses to do their due diligence and fulfill their obligation to check the powers of the executive branch on the basis of party over country and morality.
Another Bear
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Dotard Donnie says he can pardon himself.



Quote:

As has been stated by numerous legal scholars, I have the absolute right to PARDON myself, but why would I do that when I have done nothing wrong? In the meantime, the never ending Witch Hunt, led by 13 very Angry and Conflicted Democrats (& others) continues into the mid-terms
mikecohen
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Unit2Sucks said:

I actually agree that you shouldn't be able to indict a sitting president regardless of the crime. Congress' job is to impeach in the event of a serious enough crime and that decision shouldn't be left to a grand jury of ordinary citizens which could seriously impede the functioning of our government. Of course, this assumes we have a real president who actually does his job and not a moron who watches TV all day and has no functional command of his duties.

I don't think this means that a president is above the law or that he can pardon himself or refuse a subpoena or anything like that.

Grand jury indictments are too low of a bar for the sitting president so having congress run the process makes a lot more sense. Of course, when the framers created the system they may not have anticipated how tribal politics would become and the fact that congress would largely abdicate its duties in favor of self gain. Unfortunately they didn't realize we would have professional politicians who care more about special interests then the country or their constituents they are supposed to serve.
Just a note: It does not seem to me that the division in the country, reflected in the Congress is yet worse now than it was in 1860.
mikecohen
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Another Bear said:

Dotard Donnie says he can pardon himself.



Quote:

As has been stated by numerous legal scholars, I have the absolute right to PARDON myself, but why would I do that when I have done nothing wrong? In the meantime, the never ending Witch Hunt, led by 13 very Angry and Conflicted Democrats (& others) continues into the mid-terms

There is federal court authority to the effect that the pardoned person admits the crime from the consequences of which that person is pardoned.
Another Bear
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What Donnie Small Hands is boxed in? I guess that's why he's cagey. Most are before going down.
Unit2Sucks
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I acknowledge that congress is beyond what any of the framers would have comprehended in terms of party and politics over country. I still don't think that means you nullify the constitution and allow the president to be indicted.

Presumably Mueller will write a report that will list any and all wrongdoing by Trump and his associates. If congress decides not to impeach it could be for any number of reasons but ultimately everyone will answer to the public. I think there is little chance that any court respects his attempt to pardon himself and he will answer for any crimes when he is voted out of office in 2.5 years if he's not impeached before then.

The idea of having a sitting president indicted by a grand jury and then standing trial in front of a jury of his "peers" is a bit preposterous. There are better ways to handle this for a sitting president, even one as vexatious as Trump.
bearister
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I repeat: Republicans will never impeach him and any jury in a criminal prosecution will be end up hung. Death during term, refusal to run for re-election , resignation or losing the election are the only scenarios that end the tRump Regime.
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bearister
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Manafort steps on his Johnson.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1J1043
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Anarchistbear
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If Trump pardons himself and that pardon is found to be a high crime against the United States, he can be impeached. The solutions to that are political. Vote him out is by far the easiest solution.
Another Bear
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Special Master in Cohen Case Finds Few Seized Materials Are Privileged
Quote:

A special master reviewing a trove of documents and electronic files seized in April from Michael D. Cohen, President Trump's longtime lawyer and fixer, said on Monday that, at least so far, only a tiny fraction of the materials are protected by the attorney-client privilege, meaning that most can be used by the federal prosecutors who are conducting a wide-ranging criminal investigation into Mr. Cohen.


Looks like Trump and Cohen are open for exposure. It's going to be interesting to see what they have.

Wonder if this gets Cohen to flip...or if Dotard flips more.
blungld
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We need Trump in jail. If he simply resigns, he will still have his base and be dangerous on the sidelines. Him arrested will be warning for others and a first step to healing, justice, sanity, and remembering who we are.
concordtom
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blungld said:

We need Trump in jail. If he simply resigns, he will still have his base and be dangerous on the sidelines. Him arrested will be warning for others and a first step to healing, justice, sanity, and remembering who we are.
As if all Americans would be convinced he did something dastardly....
They will more than likely think the charges are BS and that doesn't do any good for the nation's healing.

That why I say heart attack.
And then let the incriminating evidence come out after and people will be more apt to accept it, as it's effectively inconsequential at that point.

There will be some good films about this era no matter what.
Who could play trump effectively, and the characterizations of him will be funny.
concordtom
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Tripping down a flight of stairs and hitting his head works, too, by the way.
concordtom
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bearister said:

I repeat: Republicans will never impeach him and any jury in a criminal prosecution will be end up hung. Death during term, refusal to run for re-election , resignation or losing the election are the only scenarios that end the tRump Regime.
Yes
Now that's some news I can get excited about!
bearister
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blungld said:

We need Trump in jail. If he simply resigns, he will still have his base and be dangerous on the sidelines. Him arrested will be warning for others and a first step to healing, justice, sanity, and remembering who we are.

Once Dictator tRump is out, his base will be rounded up and tried for treason in mass trials in football stadiums. After conviction they will be bused to re-education camps. Fox News personalities will be forced into Pay per View gladiator matches.
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Another Bear
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So Trump thug Paul Manafort tried to tamper with witnesses before his trial and got pinched. They're going to pull his bail and lock that mother up.

Seriously, how incompetent and stupid are you doing this via email...while the Feds have access to your iCloud account?

BTW, Manafort is waiting for a pardon. I think he caves and spills once he figures out that isn't happening or it doesn't give him the protection and options he wants.
B.A. Bearacus
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mikecohen
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concordtom said:

blungld said:

We need Trump in jail. If he simply resigns, he will still have his base and be dangerous on the sidelines. Him arrested will be warning for others and a first step to healing, justice, sanity, and remembering who we are.
As if all Americans would be convinced he did something dastardly....
They will more than likely think the charges are BS and that doesn't do any good for the nation's healing.

That why I say heart attack.
And then let the incriminating evidence come out after and people will be more apt to accept it, as it's effectively inconsequential at that point.

There will be some good films about this era no matter what.
Who could play trump effectively, and the characterizations of him will be funny.
FWIW: I agree with everything you say in this post; but I can't bring myself to wish illness on any human being.
concordtom
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I hear ya.
It's actually a first for me!
And I was surprised to come to that conclusion.

Let me ask you this. If you could pull the trigger on Hitler would you?
If your wife was being tortured and rapped, would you?

Trump is no hitler, and I couldn't pull that trigger, but a heart attack would be divine intervention for us. That would be gods will.

For the record, I'm a pacifist, have never punched anyone out of anger, even though twice been socked in the face. I turned to reason and asked with my hands behind my back, "why did you do that?"

I imagine there are a few on this board who would like a free shot at me.
mikecohen
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concordtom said:

I hear ya.
It's actually a first for me!
And I was surprised to come to that conclusion.

Let me ask you this. If you could pull the trigger on Hitler would you?
If your wife was being tortured and rapped, would you?

Trump is no hitler, and I couldn't pull that trigger, but a heart attack would be divine intervention for us. That would be gods will.

For the record, I'm a pacifist, have never punched anyone out of anger, even though twice been socked in the face. I turned to reason and asked with my hands behind my back, "why did you do that?"

I imagine there are a few on this board who would like a free shot at me.
I admit it. I would pull the trigger on Hitler. "Nuff said.
concordtom
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Right. It would be a moral obligation.
Jesus said to turn the other cheek, to give the shirt off your back, but he never addressed The Trolley Dilemma:

http://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/trolley-dilemma-would-you-kill-one-person-save-five/
bearister
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concordtom said:

Right. It would be a moral obligation.
Jesus said to turn the other cheek, to give the shirt off your back, but he never addressed The Trolley Dilemma:

http://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/trolley-dilemma-would-you-kill-one-person-save-five/


Jesus must have run out of cheeks when He ran into those money changers in the temple.
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blungld
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The money changers are thinking, "Get this long-haired, out-of town immigrant Liberal socialist out of here, we're priming the economy to create wealth that will trickle down to the lepers and making the Temple great again!"
bearister
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blungld said:

The money changers are thinking, "Get this long-haired, out-of town immigrant Liberal socialist out of here, we're priming the economy to create wealth that will trickle down to the lepers and making the Temple great again!"

And as we speak an Evangelical fanantic is working on an essay reconciling the teachings of Christ with the life and politics of tRump.
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blungld
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bearister said:

blungld said:

The money changers are thinking, "Get this long-haired, out-of town immigrant Liberal socialist out of here, we're priming the economy to create wealth that will trickle down to the lepers and making the Temple great again!"

And as we speak an Evangelical fanantic is working on an essay reconciling the teachings of Christ with the life and politics of tRump.
I'm sure the argument will go something like this: Jesus taught us to do unto others, and Trump is doing unto others all the time.
okaydo
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Kellyanne Conway's hubby weighs in:

https://lawfareblog.com/terrible-arguments-against-constitutionality-mueller-investigation
bearister
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okaydo said:

Kellyanne Conway's hubby weighs in:

https://lawfareblog.com/terrible-arguments-against-constitutionality-mueller-investigation


The purpose of California CCP Section 128.7 is to keep the type of baseless arguments tRump's attorneys make out of court. I wonder if Kellyanne has considered a live in food taster?
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Another Bear
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okaydo said:

Kellyanne Conway's hubby weighs in:

https://lawfareblog.com/terrible-arguments-against-constitutionality-mueller-investigation

Hmmm...I wonder if George sticks by Kellyanne if she goes into the slammer.
Another Bear
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Looks like Mueller cranked the rake on Manafort a few notches. He's likely going to the klink of Friday. There he'll either be raped, or the Russian mob will pay him a visit. And he won't have $8k suits or protection.

Good luck Paulie!
bearister
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Another Bear said:

Looks like Mueller cranked the rake on Manafort a few notches. He's likely going to the klink of Friday. There he'll either be raped, or the Russian mob will pay him a visit. And he won't have $8k suits or protection.

Good luck Paulie!

He should hold firm and not plea bargain. With 40% of the country believing the Fox News Deep State narrative and 87% of Republicans backing tRump the odds are astronomically in his favor of a hung jury. If I was him Zi would say "Bring it!" Our nation is basically finished. Oh, and I almost forgot about the tRump pardon.
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