OT: Trump/Russians/Robert Mueller

Cal88
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Back in the 80s-90s the dumb jingoistic warmonging ones used to be Republican, it's funny how things have flipped around since.

FYI Georgia is not part of Russia, it's an independent country, which happens to have one of the oldest viticultural traditions in the world.


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It's going to come down to FL, MI, OH, WI and PA once again ,it will be more about their local outlook than the overall economy.


If the overall economy goes bad, then I strongly suspect "local outlook" in these places will also be bad.

Those places have been much more deeply affected by structural economic changes that have started to kick in in the late 70s than by normal business cycles. We in the coastal big cities are a bit shielded from that picture.

B.A. Bearacus
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dajo9
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Cal88 said:

Back in the 80s-90s the dumb jingoistic warmonging ones used to be Republican, it's funny how things have flipped around since.



Imagine saying something this dumb. A Republican lied us into a massive war in 2003, the Democratic President who followed reduced our overseas presence and now the Republican President has escalated bombings and has been reported to be begging his cabinet for war with Venezuela.

But if you go to any Russian propaganda site, they will tell you the Dems are warmongers and Hillary threatened WWIII. Why? Because Hillary stood up to Putin and he hates her for it.

And here is Cal88, right on que, back from summer vacation, parroting Russian propaganda.
Cal88
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dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

Back in the 80s-90s the dumb jingoistic warmonging ones used to be Republican, it's funny how things have flipped around since.



Imagine saying something this dumb. A Republican lied us into a massive war in 2003, the Democratic President who followed reduced our overseas presence and now the Republican President has escalated bombings and has been reported to be begging his cabinet for war with Venezuela.

But if you go to any Russian propaganda site, they will tell you the Dems are warmongers and Hillary threatened WWIII. Why? Because Hillary stood up to Putin and he hates her for it.

And here is Cal88, right on que, back from summer vacation, parroting Russian propaganda.
Right, either you buy wholesale that false narrative, or your name is Boris or Sergei.

Two major invasions/wars were started under Obama, Libya and Syria. Obama also escalated bombing campaigns in Pakistan and Afghanistan. As well under his watch Hillary orchestrated the overthrow of democratically elected governments like Honduras, which has destabilized central America and fueled the migrant crisis.

https://www.democracynow.org/2016/3/11/before_her_assassination_berta_caceres_singled



Anyone who isn't a rabid partisan can see that Clinton is a warmonger. Trump run on an non-interventionist platform, but so far he has not kept his promises.
sycasey
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Criticizing Hillary Clinton for being too hawkish is reasonable. What is not reasonable is to compare the entirety of the Democratic party to the entirety of the Republican party and say that the former is the MORE warmongering party. On what basis?
dajo9
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Cal88 said:


Trump run on an non-interventionist platform, but so far he has not kept his promises.

What sycasey said is 100% correct, so I'll just add that most of us with a Cal degree are not surprised at all that Trump lied. The guy has been a known pathological liar for decades. Somehow, you seemed to not realize that and are now talking about promises not kept. I guess the jokes on you.

OK, ok, ok. I'm going to add something else to counter Cal88's stupidity. Obama / Clinton had nothing to do with the start of wars in Libya and Syria. The people of those countries started those wars. I know Cal88 always wants to blame America first, but he is wrong to do so. Obama initiated a bombing campaign to prevent a massacre in Libya. Obama resisted serious efforts, particularly from Republicans, to increase our involvement in Syria. Obama increased bombing in Afghanistan and Pakistan while REDUCING troop levels.

Cal88 hates America and actively supports increasing tension levels within America. I don't talk that way about anybody else who I debate with on this site. I would never say that about wiaf, Odonto, GoldenOne, or even iwantwinners. Cal88 is a special kind of blame America for everything bad. There's a good reason why he and Putin support Trump.
mikecohen
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dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

Back in the 80s-90s the dumb jingoistic warmonging ones used to be Republican, it's funny how things have flipped around since.



Imagine saying something this dumb. A Republican lied us into a massive war in 2003, the Democratic President who followed reduced our overseas presence and now the Republican President has escalated bombings and has been reported to be begging his cabinet for war with Venezuela.

But if you go to any Russian propaganda site, they will tell you the Dems are warmongers and Hillary threatened WWIII. Why? Because Hillary stood up to Putin and he hates her for it.

And here is Cal88, right on que, back from summer vacation, parroting Russian propaganda.
yes, but what doesn't fit that scenario is his insistence on the independence of (and praise for) Georgia, when, like in Eastern Ukraine, that independence is threatened by similar action by the Russian government in East Ossetia.
Another Bear
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Cal88...they're coming to get you!
mikecohen
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

Back in the 80s-90s the dumb jingoistic warmonging ones used to be Republican, it's funny how things have flipped around since.



Imagine saying something this dumb. A Republican lied us into a massive war in 2003, the Democratic President who followed reduced our overseas presence and now the Republican President has escalated bombings and has been reported to be begging his cabinet for war with Venezuela.

But if you go to any Russian propaganda site, they will tell you the Dems are warmongers and Hillary threatened WWIII. Why? Because Hillary stood up to Putin and he hates her for it.

And here is Cal88, right on que, back from summer vacation, parroting Russian propaganda.
Right, either you buy wholesale that false narrative, or your name is Boris or Sergei.

Two major invasions/wars were started under Obama, Libya and Syria. Obama also escalated bombing campaigns in Pakistan and Afghanistan. As well under his watch Hillary orchestrated the overthrow of democratically elected governments like Honduras, which has destabilized central America and fueled the migrant crisis.

https://www.democracynow.org/2016/3/11/before_her_assassination_berta_caceres_singled



Anyone who isn't a rabid partisan can see that Clinton is a warmonger. Trump run on an non-interventionist platform, but so far he has not kept his promises.

Does even Russian Propaganda goes so far as to infer that Obama warmongered Libya and Syria. Indeed, Cal88's own facially equivocal grammar reveals the "truthiness" of his statement.

Re Pakistan & Afghanistan, I just want to repeat: Insoluable unless and until it is possible (by whom and/or what I don't have a clue) to heal the wound, festering for 125 years, created by the Durand Line which cuts the Pushtoon Nation in half, making both Afghanistan and that part of Pakistan ungovernable, and creating endless reason for the people whose nation is cut in half to maintain that instability.

Hillary clearly deserves blame for the U. S. failing to condemn the Honduran Coup and failing do the other things that even American law required in favor of restoring the democratically elected governement there, which also gives credence to the suspicion of U. S. complicity in the coup. But claiming credit for that de-stabilizing Central America, after, mostly (if not entirely) Republican Administrations supporting the most vile dictatorships there for decades (maybe even close to 100 years) majorly weakens Call88's credibility on the point, which credibility was facially weak to begin with.
mikecohen
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dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:


Trump run on an non-interventionist platform, but so far he has not kept his promises.

What sycasey said is 100% correct, so I'll just add that most of us with a Cal degree are not surprised at all that Trump lied. The guy has been a known pathological liar for decades. Somehow, you seemed to not realize that and are now talking about promises not kept. I guess the jokes on you.

OK, ok, ok. I'm going to add something else to counter Cal88's stupidity. Obama / Clinton had nothing to do with the start of wars in Libya and Syria. The people of those countries started those wars. I know Cal88 always wants to blame America first, but he is wrong to do so. Obama initiated a bombing campaign to prevent a massacre in Libya. Obama resisted serious efforts, particularly from Republicans, to increase our involvement in Syria. Obama increased bombing in Afghanistan and Pakistan while REDUCING troop levels.

Cal88 hates America and actively supports increasing tension levels within America. I don't talk that way about anybody else who I debate with on this site. I would never say that about wiaf, Odonto, GoldenOne, or even iwantwinners. Cal88 is a special kind of blame America for everything bad. There's a good reason why he and Putin support Trump.
Forgetting about Call88,
I just want to add a little perspective, which I think is meaningful in terms of all our concern about how to deal with some of the monsters that social media has unleashed:
It is maybe fair to say that what really started the debacles in Libya and Syria was, more than anything else, the biggest example of unintended consequences within my memory at least: the combination of:
(a) Obama's Arab Spring Speech, made in an Arab country with a less than democratic government, and which could have been seen as a rallying cry, and
(b) the rise of social media which put theretofore unimaginable organizing power into the hands of pro-democracy elements within the region, which:
In the case of Egypt, failed to have enough real political support compared to the previously organized fundamentalist muslims - Egypt being the original home of that philosophical reaction to the modern world,
In the case of Libya, ran into the absolute lacuna of political organization in the whole country, leaving it open to whatever violent faction could be more violent, and,
In the case of Syria, a situation so dangerous to Shia Nationalism in that majority Sunni country that its Shia minority government (with the support of its military, which I assume had been set up with that in mind), plus the big Shia in the region (Iran) seeing that threat, had no compunction but to start killing every Sunni within Syria - aided majorly by Russia coming in on the Syria side, because all of its own internal enemies (e.g., Chechens and others in the 'Stans who got their independence) were Sunnis, led to the major slaughter and diaspora that only the U.S. had the power to prevent. But nobody in the U.S. had a clue about how to go about doing that.
Another Bear
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So....big, bad Bob Mueller didn't drop a giant truth bomb before Labor Day.

I guess the message now is...vote early and vote often...BUT BY ALL MEANS VOTE!!!

Gotta take this mother back and kick the Nazis, authoritarians and traitors in the nuts...old school democracy style. Make November American Democracy month!

I make no bones about it...I want a Democat majority in the house because the investigations and subpoenas by 20 committees will break and bury Trump.
B.A. Bearacus
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bearister
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Paulie Walnuts may be going canary mode:

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/405661-manafort-considering-plea-deal-to-avoid-second-trial-report
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bearister
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https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tentative-deal-reached-manafort-special-counsel-sources/story?id=57809113

The Long Arm of the Law is coming for you tRump!


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BearNIt
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bearister said:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tentative-deal-reached-manafort-special-counsel-sources/story?id=57809113

The Long Arm of the Law is coming for you tRump!



Not only for Trump, but also Trump Jr., Jared, and Ivanka. Manafort was at all these meetings and knows exactly who was there and what was discussed as does Mueller. Manafort will confirm what Mueller already knows and Mueller will start putting the kids in jail just to watch Trump swing in the wind as a reminder that everybody is accountable. The only thing that Manafort has to worry about is mysteriously falling out the window of a third story building or being poisoned. WITSEC anybody?
B.A. Bearacus
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Renato Mariotti:

1/ Today prosecutors with Mueller's office announced that Manafort's plea agreement in the D.C. case was a "cooperation" agreement. That is big newsManafort has agreed to tell Mueller everything he knows about potential criminal activity by anyone.

2/ The DOJ does not let defendants cooperate as to some people but not others. If a defendant cooperates, they have to provide the government with truthful and complete answers to any question and be willing to testify in any matter they are asked to be a witness in.

3/ For that reason, Manafort is not cooperating against one person in particularhe has agreed to say everything he knows, and in order to receive a deal, he had to already begin doing so. Prosecutors don't give deals until after the defendant provides useful info.

4/ This also means that Manafort has something of value to offer Mueller. Mueller would not have given him a deal unless Manafort was able to help Mueller make a case against someone else or significantly strengthen an existing case.

5/ Until we see the plea agreement, we won't know exactly what Manafort is receiving in return. But aside from being capped at ten years, the main benefit he would likely receive is the government recommending a lower sentence based on his cooperation.

6/ One thing is obviousManafort could have gotten a better deal if he flipped in the beginning, instead of wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees fighting Mueller. Until now, it looked like Manafort was angling for a pardon, but flipping runs counter to that.

7/ Trump recently praised Manafort for refusing to "break." His reaction to this this deal will be worth watching. Manafort was chair of the Trump campaign and he was present at the Trump Tower meeting, so Trump has a reason to be concerned about what he might tell Mueller.

8/ That said, today's cooperation deal does not necessarily mean that Manafort is getting the deal to flip on Trump. He may be getting the deal because of information he provided about someone else. But the deal does mean that he has to tell Mueller all he knows about Trump. /end
Another Bear
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From Vox:

We just heard what may be the five most frightening words for President Trump yet: "He's agreed to fully cooperate."

That's what Kevin Downing, the lead lawyer for Trump's former campaign chair Paul Manafort, told reporters outside a Washington courthouse on Friday when he announced that Manafort had agreed to cooperate with special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation as part of a plea deal.
bearister
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Bill Maher: "I'm not saying Mueller is getting cocky with all the people flipping on tRump, but today Mueller showed up in court wearing an ostrich jacket."

"tRump is getting so paranoid with all the people flipping on him that today when he groped Ivanka it was just to see if she was wearing a wire."
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bearister
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/14/robert-mueller-trump-russia-investigation-what-we-know?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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Another Bear
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Here's a little tidbit regarding Manafort. Read something that he might flip on a Big Fish that isn't Trump.

There were names tossed out, a few Russians. But my first thought was: Mike Pence. Makes sense, Manafort brought in Pence as VP. They are linked.

Quite seriously, taking down Pence might be easier. He doesn't have the same corruption (or blatant) like Trump but he also might not have the same protection as POTUS.

If you can tag Pence with the Russians, the Trump admin would be wounded beyond repair and buckle under the pressure because the election would be suspect.

No doubt the focus is still on Trump but Pence has to be dirty if he's linked to Manafort. Or does Pence FLIP?


sycasey
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Another Bear said:

Here's a little tidbit regarding Manafort. Read something that he might flip on a Big Fish that isn't Trump.

There were names tossed out, a few Russians. But my first thought was: Mike Pence. Makes sense, Manafort brought in Pence as VP. They are linked.

Quite seriously, taking down Pence might be easier. He doesn't have the same corruption (or blatant) like Trump but he also might not have the same protection as POTUS.

If you can tag Pence with the Russians, the Trump admin would be wounded beyond repair and buckle under the pressure because the election would be suspect.

No doubt the focus is still on Trump but Pence has to be dirty if he's linked to Manafort. Or does Pence FLIP?
Assuming they are all involved, I think the next best targets are Kushner, then Trump's kids. Go after all of them. It's the best way to bother Trump himself.
bearister
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New York Times: The Plot to Subvert an Election

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/09/20/us/politics/russia-interference-election-trump-clinton.html
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Another Bear
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Nice graphics for the article...a little play on the Russian nesting doll.

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